Pathfinder Player Companion: Weapon Master's Handbook (PFRPG)

Ooh Halfling Style looks really cool.

What all archetypes are in the book?

I'm pretty much disappointed in what I read.

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome. Basically, instead of gaining a new group, you get a different benefit instead, but previous options still exist. So you can choose your one group at 5 and get 3 special abilities.

And there is a feat that grants you one of these, that you can take once per 5 fighter levels

Ooh Halfling Style looks really cool.

What all archetypes are in the book?

Quick Rundown.

I'm pretty excited about everything so far
Can you give us any hint on the traits?

Much thanks for the spoilers. Can anyone give a quick rundown of the styles available or is it just the racial styles?

I haven't read them yet, (back to work) but there was Empty Quiver Style, Overwatch Style, Startoss Style (Ranged) as well as Ascetic Style, Outslug Style, Smashing Style, Swordplay Style and Spear Dancing Style.

So, certainly more than just the racials.

I'm pretty much disappointed in what I read.

Sorry you don't like it. There's no part of being able to use multiple weapon styles and tack on combat feats as needed in combat, trade out secondary weapon training for brand new options (including one to treat base attack bonus as skill ranks for two skills), or having options to have people who miss you provoke an attack of opportunity, add Vital Strike to Cleave damage, or to a charge, or turn it into ongoing damage, nail a foe to the ground with a crossbow, treat ranged weapons as maces (and threaten with them automatically), ready multiple ranged attacks at once, using Sunder to lover hardness of targets, move 10-feet on a 5-foot step, double weapon training damage bonuses with Weapon Finesse attacks, shooting allies out of grapples, cutting arrows from the air, dispelling a target's spells with a crit from a cold iron weapon, or forcing a flaming sword to cast brining hands (to select one thing from random from each page over several pages, all available to human fighters) that my human fighter characters don't love. :)

I haven't read them yet, (back to work) but there was Empty Quiver Style, Overwatch Style, Startoss Style (Ranged) as well as Ascetic Style, Outslug Style, Smashing Style, Swordplay Style and Spear Dancing Style.

So, certainly more than just the racials.
Style Names: Show

Thank you, the names at least give me an idea of what they could be about.

Can someone spoil the Rondelero Swashbuckler?

Much thanks for the spoilers. Can anyone give a quick rundown of the styles available or is it just the racial styles?

There are two pages of racial styles, then two pages of ranged styles (available to everyone) and two pages of melee styles (available to everyone).

The divine fighting techniques aren't officially styles and work differently, though thematically they are similar.

Any cool slayer stuff (talents/non-fighter feats)

Wolfgang Rolf wrote:

Much thanks for the spoilers. Can anyone give a quick rundown of the styles available or is it just the racial styles?

There are two pages of racial styles, then two pages of ranged styles (available to everyone) and two pages of melee styles (available to everyone).

The divine fighting techniques aren't officially styles and work differently, though thematically they are similar.

Thanks now to wait till the 18th and look forward to adjusting my martial characters ' builds.

Can someone spoil the Rondelero Swashbuckler?

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

Any cool slayer stuff (talents/non-fighter feats)

Almost no feats are fighter-exclusive. Fighter-specific stuff comes in form of options for their own class features, and greater flexibility with some feats.

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

That's a pretty great endorsement. D:

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

Is it like Wizard, where you can trade those later Weapon Trainings out for the advanced versions, getting extras with the feat?

donato wrote:

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

Is it like Wizard, where you can trade those later Weapon Trainings out for the advanced versions, getting extras with the feat?

Indeed. You can mix and match the feats or replace weapon trainings at any point after 5th level. You can specialize completely with one group or focus on multiple weapon groups. The best part is that the weapon training bonuses still scale as normal at later levels.

A martial has a nice thing!

donato wrote:

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

That's a pretty great endorsement. D:

When a section (plus a feat) finally allows for me to make the starknife wielding master I've always wanted to make, it is going to get praise from me.

Any sword and board support.

Honestly, I wish there was more in the book for my bloodrager, but its still good overall. A lot of support for lower-end combat options, not a lot specifically for the standard two-hander build.

QuidEst wrote:

donato wrote:

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

Is it like Wizard, where you can trade those later Weapon Trainings out for the advanced versions, getting extras with the feat?

Indeed. You can mix and match the feats or replace weapon trainings at any point after 5th level. You can specialize completely with one group or focus on multiple weapon groups. The best part is that the weapon training bonuses still scale as normal at later levels.

A martial has a nice thing!

I would say that advanced weapon training makes the fighter the second best pure martial. Its still no barbarian, but its better than the slayer now for sure.

Any sword and board support.

There is a weapon and shield set of tricks that is granted by a feat. Lets you take 10 on feints, can shield bash as an AoO after you feint, better avoiding gaze attacks, 1 a day per foe, avoid movement AoOs from that foe. Two of the melee styles, outslug and swordplay, can be used with SnB, but are not specifically for it.

Gotta see how this mixes with fighter nuances.

Most disappointing part of the book to me is the weapon design portion, which took a major lesson from the race builder I guess. Most existing weapons are above budget, so anything you make is generally going to be worse.

For example, the elven curve blade has 19 points by the builder, when the maximum allowed for a custom weapon is 12 points.

Now I need to find what archetypes or feats that allow this certain "FIGHTER weapon training" and NOT the rouge talent

Now I need to find what archetypes or feats that allow this certain "FIGHTER weapon training" and NOT the rouge talent

The list is extremely limited: Sohei Monk and Myrmidarch Magus.

What's outslug and swordplay?

The racial styles in the book are pretty awesome as well.

<snip>
Halfling style lets you reload slings without AoO, +1 damage with slings, and anything with sling in the name is sling for anything that requires slings. <snip>

And finally the Halfling Sling-Staff and the Warslinger trait synergize with the help of this style. :)

I could see a Halfling Magus (Eldritch Archer or Myrmydion (sp?)) with this.....

Calth wrote:

The racial styles in the book are pretty awesome as well.

<snip>
Halfling style lets you reload slings without AoO, +1 damage with slings, and anything with sling in the name is sling for anything that requires slings. <snip>

And finally the Halfling Sling-Staff and the Warslinger trait synergize with the help of this style. :)

I could see a Halfling Magus (Eldritch Archer or Myrmydion (sp?)) with this.....

But more importantly, does it include sling bikinis?

Kidding! Kidding!

Most disappointing part of the book to me is the weapon design portion, which took a major lesson from the race builder I guess. Most existing weapons are above budget, so anything you make is generally going to be worse.

For example, the elven curve blade has 19 points by the builder, when the maximum allowed for a custom weapon is 12 points.

see now, this was the thing I was most interested in. Gotta ask, how do firearms play into it?

I have got to say, this sounds wonderful. Good job to everyone who worked on this book to make martials feel more viable. Once this comes out in my area, I am sure to get me a physical copy.

donato wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

donato wrote:

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

Is it like Wizard, where you can trade those later Weapon Trainings out for the advanced versions, getting extras with the feat?

Indeed. You can mix and match the feats or replace weapon trainings at any point after 5th level. You can specialize completely with one group or focus on multiple weapon groups. The best part is that the weapon training bonuses still scale as normal at later levels.

A martial has a nice thing!

I would say that advanced weapon training makes the fighter the second best pure martial. Its still no barbarian, but its better than the slayer now for sure.

You have absolutely no idea how elated I am to hear you say that. I'm glad you liked the advanced trainings; Owen and I put a LOT of hard work into making them into abilities that are fun, exciting, felt like things fighters should have, but also were "new" things.

Most disappointing part of the book to me is the weapon design portion, which took a major lesson from the race builder I guess. Most existing weapons are above budget, so anything you make is generally going to be worse.

For example, the elven curve blade has 19 points by the builder, when the maximum allowed for a custom weapon is 12 points.

I can understand your frustrations. I don't have my own copy of WMH in front of me at the moment, but I'd be delighted in sharing my brain-space when I wrote the rules.

Basically, things like swords and spears? Everyone KNOWS how to make those. Those are easy, and they're not the sort of things that you should be building with this system; you should be focusing on weird things.

The difficult thing about designing a system like this (or the ARG's race building rules) is that you're effectively trying to build a system to bring order into an orderless place. Its like trying to build a casino in the Maelstrom and expecting it to be a casino very long. In all my tests, I got REALLY close to the gold costs of simple and martial weapons with this system (that's was my metric for whether or not the system was successful; final gold cost and abilities compared to similar weapons). The tricky thing about Exotic Weapons, however, is the sheer number of crazy cool and diverse special abilities they have, as well as how expensive they can be. (Compare the cost of a firearm to an elven curve blade.)

Ultimately, I wouldn't expect a system like this to EVER be legal in PFS play, just as the race building system isn't legal. That said, this is great for approximating new weapons and when you get right down to it, you're more than free to up the point cap for your games. And if your a player, show your GM this post and tell him yiur GM has my non-Paizo Endorsed permission to make whatever changes are necessary for your home games to make this the perfect system for his or her games!

Calth wrote:

The racial styles in the book are pretty awesome as well.

<snip>
Halfling style lets you reload slings without AoO, +1 damage with slings, and anything with sling in the name is sling for anything that requires slings. <snip>

And finally the Halfling Sling-Staff and the Warslinger trait synergize with the help of this style. :)

I could see a Halfling Magus (Eldritch Archer or Myrmydion (sp?)) with this.....

When I was told, "Hey, we need you to make style feats centered around specific races," this was 100% my first thought. Despite being known as, "That Crazy Guy With 9 PFS Kitsune," I've ALWAYS wanted to play a halfling slinger, but the rules just weren't there. I feel pretty confident that with this sytle, you can finally do that. :D

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Wolfgang Rolf wrote:

Much thanks for the spoilers. Can anyone give a quick rundown of the styles available or is it just the racial styles?

There are two pages of racial styles, then two pages of ranged styles (available to everyone) and two pages of melee styles (available to everyone).

The divine fighting techniques aren't officially styles and work differently, though thematically they are similar.

Thanks now to wait till the 18th and look forward to adjusting my martial characters ' builds.

Imagine being me, sitting here since I turned the manuscript over, thinking, "Well now, I guess I won't be playing THIS PFS character until Option X comes out!"

(Option X is totally Startoss Style.)

What's outslug and swordplay?

Two of the Weapon Style Feats in the Weapon Master Handbook. Outslug focuses on weapons in the close fighter weapon group while Swordplay focuses on weapons in the light and heavy blades groups.

Calth wrote:

Most disappointing part of the book to me is the weapon design portion, which took a major lesson from the race builder I guess. Most existing weapons are above budget, so anything you make is generally going to be worse.

For example, the elven curve blade has 19 points by the builder, when the maximum allowed for a custom weapon is 12 points.

I can understand your frustrations. I don't have my own copy of WMH in front of me at the moment, but I'd be delighted in sharing my brain-space when I wrote the rules.

Basically, things like swords and spears? Everyone KNOWS how to make those. Those are easy, and they're not the sort of things that you should be building with this system; you should be focusing on weird things.

The difficult thing about designing a system like this (or the ARG's race building rules) is that you're effectively trying to build a system to bring order into an orderless place. Its like trying to build a casino in the Maelstrom and expecting it to be a casino very long. In all my tests, I got REALLY close to the gold costs of simple and martial weapons with this system (that's was my metric for whether or not the system was successful; final gold cost and abilities compared to similar weapons). The tricky thing about Exotic Weapons, however, is the sheer number of crazy cool and diverse special abilities they have, as well as how expensive they can be. (Compare the cost of a firearm to an elven curve blade.)

Ultimately, I wouldn't expect a system like this to EVER be legal in PFS play, just as the race building system isn't legal. That said, this is great for approximating new weapons and when you get right down to it, you're more than free to up the point cap for your games. And if your a player, show your GM this post and tell him yiur GM has my non-Paizo Endorsed permission to make whatever changes are necessary for your home games to make this the perfect system for his or her games!

The curve blade was just an egregious example though. Mostly it seems to be with crit ranges causing massive issues, or multiple special properties. Anything with 2 crit increases seems to be off base. I mean, the heavy pick is overcost by 4 points by the system as written, the falchion by at least two, and the bill by six.

The rapier actually appears to be the most unbalanced weapon. It has a budget of 8 points (5 martial + 2 one-handed +1 cost), but 16 points worth of abilities. (2 improved damage, 10 points for 18-20/x2, 3 points for finesse, 1 point for elven familiarity).

Calth wrote:

So yeah, advanced weapon training is crazy awesome.

If ever there was a new edition of PF, I would want to see this as standard for the fighter.

That and Combat Tricks as Fighter only

Could somebody spoil a little more on the magic item tricks?

I'd love some more info on the Swordplay feat(s)

The curve blade was just an egregious example though. Mostly it seems to be with crit ranges causing massive issues, or multiple special properties. Anything with 2 crit increases seems to be off base. I mean, the heavy pick is overcost by 4 points by the system as written, the falchion by at least two, and the bill by six.

The rapier actually appears to be the most unbalanced weapon. It has a budget of 8 points (5 martial + 2 one-handed +1 cost), but 16 points worth of abilities. (2 improved damage, 10 points for 18-20/x2, 3 points for finesse, 1 point for elven familiarity).

There could very well be an error in the costs (I don't have my copy yet, so I can't comment) but I will say that your calculations are incorrect; the rapier doesn't need to purchase elven familiarity. Think of the "familiarity" ability as "the ability to buy the word 'elven' or 'gnome' or 'orcish' for the weapon's name." So the elven sprigglescrew has to buy familiarity, but something like the rapier wouldn't.

Quick mention: I love the new Paladin Archetype, Tempered Champion. It's the simple non spellcasting Paladin that I often want to play.

** spoiler omitted **

By Crom's bloody beard! I have found my calling! :D

Calth wrote:

The curve blade was just an egregious example though. Mostly it seems to be with crit ranges causing massive issues, or multiple special properties. Anything with 2 crit increases seems to be off base. I mean, the heavy pick is overcost by 4 points by the system as written, the falchion by at least two, and the bill by six.

The rapier actually appears to be the most unbalanced weapon. It has a budget of 8 points (5 martial + 2 one-handed +1 cost), but 16 points worth of abilities. (2 improved damage, 10 points for 18-20/x2, 3 points for finesse, 1 point for elven familiarity).

There could very well be an error in the costs (I don't have my copy yet, so I can't comment) but I will say that your calculations are incorrect; the rapier doesn't need to purchase elven familiarity. Think of the "familiarity" ability as "the ability to buy the word 'elven' or 'gnome' or 'orcish' for the weapon's name." So the elven sprigglescrew has to buy familiarity, but something like the rapier wouldn't.

I included the familiarity cost because the rapier has a better feature than even that, elves get straight proficiency with it. If counting as martial costs a point, than straight proficiency should at least cost a point.

I'd love some more info on the Swordplay feat(s)

Swordplay style (heavy and light blades) makes total defense, fighting defense, and combat expertise grant a +1 shield bonus and acts as a furious focus for combat expertise. Next feat lets you feint as an immediate action after a miss. Final feat lets you forgo an attack to get a pseudo riposte, like swashbuckler deed. You get a shield bonus instead of causing a miss and gaining an attack though.

Outslug style (close weapons) gives you a dodge bonus and damage bonus when you 5ft step. First feat negates lunge ac penalty, and increases outslug style bonuses. Last feat makes 5 ft step into 10 ft step.

Ascetic Style (monk weapons) gives the weapon basically the old FCT: apply IUS feats, and apply effects that augment unarmed strike. Next feat lets you use the weapon with class features that can use unarmed strikes, and you count as monk of your character level for feats that have uses that depend on monk level. Last feat lets you use a reduced monk level unarmed strike damage, functions like close weapon mastery, and lets you ignore still mind for monastic legacy.

Smashing style (axes, hammers, or flails) lets you bull rush or trip if you sunder armor. Next feat reduces hardness slightly when you sunder an object. Last feat causes sunder to cause armor to lose AC and increase ACP slightly.

Could somebody spoil a little more on the magic item tricks?

Each a feat, generally require UMD and fort bonus and minimum spell level. Get an SLA with daily uses (generally 1/day growing based on base for to 3 or 4 uses) based off of spell used to create a continuous or daily use magic item. Caster level is BAB, use con mod instead of mental ability scores. Enchantment gives suggestion, necromancy gives bestow curse, evocation gives burning hands or 2 uses for lightning bolt(energy type based on creation spell), transmutation gives flight or telekinesis, abjuration gives targeted dispel magic, illusion gives minor image, conjuration gives dimension door, divination gives darkvision or see invisibility.

Calth wrote:

Most disappointing part of the book to me is the weapon design portion, which took a major lesson from the race builder I guess. Most existing weapons are above budget, so anything you make is generally going to be worse.

For example, the elven curve blade has 19 points by the builder, when the maximum allowed for a custom weapon is 12 points.

see now, this was the thing I was most interested in. Gotta ask, how do firearms play into it?

No firearms.

QuidEst wrote:

Could somebody spoil a little more on the magic item tricks?

Each a feat, generally require UMD and fort bonus and minimum spell level. Get an SLA with daily uses (generally 1/day growing based on base for to 3 or 4 uses) based off of spell used to create a continuous or daily use magic item. Caster level is BAB, use con mod instead of mental ability scores. Enchantment gives suggestion, necromancy gives bestow curse, evocation gives burning hands or 2 uses for lightning bolt(energy type based on creation spell), transmutation gives flight or telekinesis, abjuration gives targeted dispel magic, illusion gives minor image, conjuration gives dimension door, divination gives darkvision or see invisibility.

Oh man, awesome! (Poor Rogue...) Thanks for sharing that.

Doing the ranged styles since I did the melee.

Empty quiver style lets you treat your ranged weapon as mace (heavy or light depends on weapon), and alternate melee/ranged attacks with it freely. Also lets you ignore elf racial requirement of stabbing shot. Next feat lets you use ranged attack feats that modify attack and damage rolls with your weapon in melee. You now threaten with the weapon as well. Last feat, after you hit a foe with a melee attack, your ranged attacks no longer provoke, and hitting with a melee attack lets you load a xbow or firearm if you have rapid reload.

Overwatch style lets you ready 2 attacks as a full-round action, at a penalty to attack. Next feat turns it to a standard action. Last feat lets you ready upto 4 attacks as a full-round action, with same penalty.

Startoss style (thrown weapons) gives +2 damage per feat in chain(rules text has an error here requiring style feats but additional feats don't have style tag). Next feat is basically cleave with thrown weapon, but you can add vital strike to initial attack, and its one range increment from initial target, and no ac penalty. Final feat extends the number of cleaves to a max based on bab.

Missed one melee style:
Spear Dancing style lets you treat any spear or polearm as a double weapon, with off-hand a light mace, losing reach and brace. Next feat lets you finesse it, and treat it as a quarterstaff for feats and abilities. Last feat gives you back reach as a swift action.