Legendary Rogues (PFRPG)

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Legendary Rogues is the latest volume in our new series of class-focused player supplements, this one focused at the fast-talking tricksters, stealthy pilferers, and happy-go-lucky scoundrels that populate every great adventure story. From their earliest incarnations as thieves and assassins, rogues have broadened their reach into all manner of specialties, becoming skill specialists and deadly strikers, leaping from surprise to carve up their enemies, yet there is still much farther for them to go. Legendary Rogues revisits the core class abilities of the Pathfinder rogue in both its core and unchained version, exploring its offensive and defensive capabilities as well as its versatility with skills (including unchained skill unlocks) and rogue talents, giving not only new mechanics but also alternate rules and advice on implementation. The rogue's arsenal is further enhanced with a collection of feats to enliven and expand the rogue's capabilities. Legendary Rogues lives up to its name by offering an entirely new version of the rogue class, the Legendary Rogue, including an array of archetypes specifically tailored for it. Finally, we reach back to the roots of the rogue class with a brand-new prestige class, the Master Thief, a lord of larceny that will leave heroes and villains alike clutching their purses and hiding their hoards! Grab this 48-page product today and Make Your Game Legendary!

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Legendary Rogues

5/5

This is my first attempt at a formal review of a roleplaying product. As with any review, my personal biases and preferences of game style will color the review, so it’s probably a good idea to identify these. As a GM, I tend to prefer products that evoke a strong flavor and mechanics which support that flavor. This goes beyond mere mechanics; I like products that offer a leitmotif that extends beyond rules, one which can also suffuse the campaign world in a narrative way. I also get jazzed by products that provide elegant solutions to otherwise complicated or ineffective rules in the Pathfinder RPG. Rules systems which unify disparate concepts into a cohesive whole, which streamline the playing experience for both GMs and players are greatly appreciated by me.

As a player, I greatly prefer customization options and decision points that are built into the product. If it is a new character class, I like having the ability to choose from a selection of options, rather than being shoehorned into a class ability that may or may not fit my character concept. If it is a new rules subsystem, it should expand my ability to create interesting character concepts that effectively execute the concept during play, while not adding a large amount of complexity to the character management process.

Okay, with those caveats out of the way, let’s get on to my reviewed product: Legendary Rogues by Legendary Games.

This product offers us a complete rebuild of the rogue class; it was published in 2015, after Paizo had offered us their rebuild of the rogue in Pathfinder Unchained. Why all this rebuilding of one of the classic tropes of fantasy gaming? Well, the prevailing opinion of the rogue class as originally published in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is that it is underpowered with respect to the other 10 base classes in the Core Rulebook. Initial complaints seemed to focus on the rogue’s opportunities to use her iconic sneak attack ability, her sub-par potential to be an effective DPR class, rogue talents being underpowered and subsequent class offerings from Paizo which rendered her skill mastery (another iconic rogue ability) second-rate. Paizo Publishing answered these criticisms with the Unchained Rogue.

The unchained rogue attempted to bring the rogue back into the general power-level of the other base classes. They executed this design goal by introducing skill unlocks (abilities only a rogue could attempt given a specified number of skill ranks), and by granting the Weapon Finesse feat as 1st level bonus feat. This allows rogues to use DEX as their primary combat stat, reducing MAD and making them more effective combatants at early levels. Rogue talents get a few additions, but generally remain about the same.

This is where Legendary Rogues steps in. The book launches with an unfortunate gaffe: It welcomes us to Legendary Paladins in the title bar, which may cause some initial confusion for the reader. This is the only instance of this error, however, and the balance of the book does reference the correct legendary rogue class and product.

The introduction gives us a brief summary of the product, and identifies the key concepts that will be introduced in the book, such as Skill Specialties, Avoidances, and Instincts. It goes on to discuss how many Rogue Talents are redefined to align them better with similar abilities of other core classes. The rogue in combat is mentioned, and then the Legendary Rogue ties all of these concepts into a rebuild of the rogue class.

Skill specialties are addressed first. These are packages of skills (usually 1 skill plus a situational use of a second skill) that grant a scaling untyped bonus equal to ½ the rogue’s class level. Each skill specialty may only be selected once, and bonuses from multiple skill specialties don’t stack (nitpick: untyped bonuses in PF1 stack, so it may have been better to give these bonuses a type such as competence or insight). Athletic agility grants a bonus on Climb checks and Acrobatic checks made to traverse narrow or uneven surfaces. Imperceptible provides a bonus to stealth checks, and increases the miss chance for concealment. I like this one a lot! Information broker gives bonuses to Knowledge (local) checks and Diplomacy checks to Gather Information. There is a total of 14 skill specialties provided, giving the legendary rogue a means of diversifying or specializing while still remaining the best skills-based character class. Well done!

The supplement goes the extra mile by discussing skill unlocks from Pathfinder Unchained next. It discusses ways that skill unlocks can be substituted for skill specialties, or how you can use both systems simultaneously, giving the player a wide variety of ways to achieve skill mastery.

Avoidances are next, which are ways that the legendary rogue can avoid harm. Instead of the core rogue being forced to accept Trap Sense as a linear ability, the legendary rogue can choose an avoidance at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter. Avoidances include such abilities as Defensive Agility which grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC when the rogue fights defensively or takes the Total Defense action, Elusive Moves which grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity and a +1 Dodge bonus to CMD to resist a Grapple combat maneuver, Missile Avoidance (+1 Dodge bonus against ranged attacks) and Poison Resistance (bonus to saves against poison, can be taken multiple times). Trap Sense is included in the Avoidances category, but is but one option among eight possible choices.

Instincts are abilities that highlight a legendary rogue’s superb senses and instinctive awareness, modeled upon the Evasion and Uncanny Dodge abilities of the core rogue. The legendary rogue may select an instinct at 2nd and 4th level, and at every four levels thereafter. Options include the familiar Uncanny Dodge and Evasion abilities along with their improved versions, plus Instinctive Awareness (always act in a surprise round, even if unaware of attackers), Leap Aside (rogue can take a 5 foot step as an immediate reaction to an attack or AoE spell; resolution of attack is possibly affected as a result), and Celerity (roll twice for initiative, take preferred result). 10 such instincts are provided.

The next section tackles Rogue Talents as a class ability, and attempts to bring them up to a roughly equivalent power level of other similar class abilities such as a witch’s hexes or a magus’s arcana. Several new rogue talents are listed and existing talents (such as Assault Leader) are upgraded from once per day to once per opponent. This approach makes a lot of sense narratively; after all, why would a rogue only be able to execute a talent (most are extraordinary abilities) once, and then forget how to use them?!? It makes far more sense for a rogue to use the ability on an opponent, who sees the ability and can defend against it once used, but a new opponent has no knowledge of this ability, and is vulnerable to it once as well. Rogue talents are gained at 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of 10 talents at 20th level. A massive 93 total rogue talents are offered, roughly balanced between re-worked and new talents, providing a wide array of effective options for the legendary rogue to shine.

‘Rogues in combat’ is the next major section of Legendary Rogues. It discusses how the core rogue tends to fall behind other martial classes in combat ability, and behind other ‘skillful’ classes such as the bard and the inquisitor in Saving Throws. It goes on to propose ways to compensate for this deficiency, making the rogue a more effective combatant. These solutions are codified into the Legendary Rogue class, which follows later in the book.

Legendary Rogues posits that without the Sneak Attack class ability, the rogue’s attacks are essentially the same as the NPC expert class, and then enumerates the various ways that Sneak Attack can be nullified in Pathfinder. This section of the book discusses ways to make Sneak Attack more effective and applicable. Most of these solutions are included with the Legendary Rogue class, which immediately follows.

The Legendary Rogue class gets d8 hp, 3/4 BAB progression, good Reflex saves and 8 + Int skill ranks per level. Sneak attack +1d6 is gained at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every odd level. She gains a broad and deep group of class skills, and is proficient in all simple weapons plus the hand crossbow, longsword, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and sword cane, as well as one of the following weapons: garrote, longbow, whip, or a single light or one-handed martial weapon. They are proficient with light armor and bucklers but not with other shields. Rather than enumerate each class ability (which other reviewers have done with painstaking analysis), I’ll skip this and move on to observations, thoughts and conclusions.

This class offering does something really cool, something that I wish other publishers would pick up on: In addition to the class rebuild, the document offers numerous commentaries and sidebars about design goals and implementation. The reader gets insight not just into how the class is reworked, but also why. We get justification for the design decisions that were made for the class, giving us better insight into why this class is balanced with more current Pathfinder classes, and how it goes about doing so. This is great; I wish more publishers would include such commentary.

I must mention one regret that I have about this product. Files for Hero Labs are not offered (as a rule, Legendary Games does not create Hero Lab content to support its products), which for me creates an additional investment of time. You see, I use Hero Labs character management software exclusively for my Pathfinder games, both as a GM and player. I find it indispensable, given the vast number of variables that can affect a character’s statistics and abilities during play. When I allow a third-party class into one of my campaigns, I insist that it is enabled for use with Hero Labs. Consequently, the Hero Lab files must either be offered by the publisher (as with Kobold Press and Drop Dead Studios), or I must create the file myself. Now, I am not a professional programmer. My job isn’t even programming-adjacent. Learning how to code in Hero Lab was purely a skill that I wanted to learn, and it has taken over two years for me to gain a basic proficiency in creating custom content through the Hero Lab Editor. I have coded all of the class abilities for the Legendary Rogue into Hero Lab and am now working my way through the rogue talents. If you are proficient in the Hero Lab editor and want to add the Legendary Rogue to your content, be aware that coding will take several dozen hours to complete, due to the sheer number of options and abilities included with the class. On a difficulty scale, I would rate this a six out of 10. The coding isn’t terribly hard, but the number of scripts is pretty large.

Legendary Rogues delivers the rogue class that I have always been hoping for, but never got. This is the rogue that delivers on the class fantasy, giving me a robust toolkit with which I can build the kind of rogue that I envisioned, not some cobbled-together patchwork of archetypes that doesn’t quite realize my vision. Matt Goodall and Jason Nelson have created the rogue that will hereinafter be the default rogue class in all of my future campaigns. The sheer amount of customization offered by inherent skills, skill specialties, instincts and avoidances allow me to create virtually any rogue concept that I can conceive without the need to add archetypes. Their design is impressive, their goals realized, and the final product is a glory to behold. I love this book! If Hero Lab files existed for it, Legendary Rogues would get a perfect ten out of ten from me. Lacking the Hero Lab support, I still rate this at 9 out of 10, and highly recommend it as a wonderful replacement for the lackluster core rogue, and its slightly less lackluster cousin, the unchained rogue.

Do your game a huge favor, and get this book! The rogue will no longer be the red-headed step-child of the Pathfinder RPG!


Rogues get their due

5/5

Legendary Rogues is one of the very best 3rd party releases for Pathfinder I've ever seen. Done as a way to improve the rather disliked core rulebook rogue and to provide some options for further character optimization and to help make the sort of rogue the individual player wants -- a dashing bravo, a swashbuckling hero, or a coldly sly poisoner, among literally dozens of other ideas.

The new legendary rogue gets Skill Specialties to replace trapfinding. They allow the rogue to develop great ability with one or two skills, as well as to use them in ways they can't normally be used in. Like trapfinding allowing you to find and disable magical traps, poisoner granting the poison use ability, and more. Also, you can get new specialties as you increase in level; a major advantage over the old rogue.

Trap sense gets replaced with Avoidances that advance at a +1 bonus every third level. You can now pick a different avoidance at every increase, or focus on just one. They are done in such a way as to make individualization of your rogue a snap -- swordswomen can choose a different bonus than snipers or acrobats.

Instincts are where we find stuff like uncanny dodge and evasion, as well as new ideas like ambusher, which allows you to take a full action in a surprise round, or celerity, which grants rerolls on initiative. Mainly defensive, these are now granted at 2nd level, 4th, and every fourth level from then on. Once again, both a needed power boost and a great way to customize your rogue.

The rogue Talents list gets updated, with almost 90 new and improved talents to choose from. You also get a table of the talents so you can see how they work together. And, many of them improve as you rise in level. I think this is one of the best parts of the book -- I was getting character ideas just looking through them.

Next comes a section to improve the rogue's combat abilities. The sneak attack gets some incredible improvement; and you get ways to use it albeit in weakened form against even non-flanked/flat-footed enemies as well as ones immune to precision damage. The whole section is so well done and thought out you;re left wondering why Pathfinder didn't do it like this in the first place!

It all comes together with the write-up for the new and vastly improved Legendary Rogue class, showing how all these new ideas can be used to keep the rogue viable and fun. The book ends with the Master Thief prestige class for people who truly want to create a king of thieves for their campaign.

If you like rogues, or if like me you dislike them and think you'd never be willing to play one, you WILL want to read this book.I loathed the class and now I can only wish I could play some of the characters this book inspires me with.


An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5

The second of Legendary Games class-centric Ultimate-plug-ins clocks in at 48 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page inside of front cover, 2 pages of editorial, 1 page ToC, 2 pages of introductions (with a comical CCP-glitch, reading "What you will find in Legendary Paladins..."), 1 page SRD, 4 pages of advertisement, 1 page inside of back cover, 1 page back cover, leaving us with 34 pages of raw content, so let's take a look, shall we?

So, what is the first thing you think of when the term "rogue" is thrown around regarding the core competences of the class? If you've dealt with any amount of optimization, that will probably be "skills." Let's face it, as written, the rogue class is pretty much an underpowered mess that has been nerfed down from even its 3.X roots to the point where it almost hurts - me particularly. You know, I *REALLY* like rogues and so do my players...concept-wise, that is. But until the advent of Drop Dead Studios' Rogue Glory book, nary a player wanted to play the class...because, let's face it, it's one of the weakest classes for PFRPG in terms of combat utility. Now our rogues still were awesome characters, but I did feel that they lost their central competence along the way - being the suave agents, the acrobatic masters, the thieves and scoundrels, the brokers. This pdf acknowledges, thankfully, that the rogue chassis and some of its design-assumptions are in dire need of an overhaul to be competitive and allow the player to efficiently play the character they want to play.

The first selection of abilities, then, would be an assortment of skill specialties - basically alternatives to the trapfinding class feature that have comparable usefulness: Beyond a basic skill bonus, these allow e.g. expert acrobats to fall less when failing; Stealth specialists increase miss-chances. Specialization in information brokering can yield knowledge on whether an information is reliable as well as rerolls. Investigation specialists gain Perception and Sense Motive-bonuses and may see past illusions and Escape Artist-specialists may make creatures actually waste their AoOs. I wholeheartedly endorse the array of diverse options featured in this section - the additional benefits are plentiful and intriguing and I can see my characters taking any of them.

But what about the unchained rogue? Well, guess what? The book provides full synergy with the unchained rogue and codifies these skill specialties also according to the framework of said class, even going so far as to provide a skill unlock/signature skill-rework of the rogues in question when used in conjunction with this system. Kudos for going the extra mile!

The next customization option provided herein basically takes trap sense and makes it just as versatile and player-agenda-driven as you'd want it to be: Basically, you can e.g. get better AC when fighting defensively or against ranged attacks: The bonus stacks with itself and allows for a rogue to e.g. specialize in one such avoidance...or get multiple ones at lesser bonuses. Instead of Trap Sense+3, you can e.g. get a +1 bonus to ranged attacks and +2 to saves versus fear and mid-influencing effects. This takes a boring, static ability and makes players choose - which is awesome...and yes, the upgrade regarding danger sense in the Unchained version is covered as well.

The next type of ability codified herein would be instincts - these are the powerful, instinctual evasion effects that render the rogue powerful in a defensive manner. The pdf codifies evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and 10th level improved evasion as instincts - thus, gaining these is codified as happening at 2nd level, 4th and every 4 levels thereafter - and yes, there are means to use immediate actions for 5-foot steps, proper acting in surprise rounds and multiple initiative-rolls, helping the general power-level of particularly high-level rogues.

Now obviously, rogue talents are an odd bunch: PFRPG began with the general assumption of a talent being equivalent to about 1/2 a feat, an assumption that didn't even work with all rogue talents back then. With classes like alchemists and ninjas out there, it should come as no surprise that something odd is happening here: Unlike other comparable class features, rogue talents only sport a general 2-step distinction between power-levels. Hence, this pdf provides almost 100 rogue talents, including a significant array of rather well-conceived level-prereqs that allow for a more synergistic scaling. The truly interesting component here, though, pertains the feasibility of quite a few talents: Both regarding rerolls and fast stealth, which pales even before the sucky Skill Focus (Stealth) at 10th level - the authors actually did the math here and recodified former trap options into a more powerful variant. The care that obviously went into these is truly interesting and extends to power-comparisons between e.g. rogue talents and alchemist discoveries, bridging the gap between the two. Obviously, I can't cover all of the talents...but know this: I consider them basically canon at this point.

There also is a new codification of talents that focus on last second saves for the rogues called desperation talents - from defensive roll to 1/day (+1/day at 15th and 20th level) negating attacks that would bring the rogue below 0 Hp with movement to gaining temporary hit points to avoid dying - and yes, all of these talents now can be found in a nice, big table. Once again, implementation for both core rogues and unchained rogues is covered rather well.

The fixing of the rogue goes even further - with saving throw-fixes (below that of specialists, but better than e.g. wizards) and the pdf also offers an ability to fix the BAB-discrepancy versus e.g. slayer...and also sports an optional alternate rule for attacks versus flanked targets, should you wish for a less distinct solution. Better yet: The damage-consistency and supreme array of sneak immune/negating creatures is also addressed via a plethora of different class features -and yes, this also includes a mechanically feasible take on streamlining the damage-output of APG and PFU's Powerful and Deadly Sneak - coincidentally a mathematical discrepancy I noted in my own designs...so kudos indeed! The issue of sneak attack and critical damage is also, just fyi, taken care of in a concise and mathematically relevant, yet conservative manner that should not unbalance any game...and yes, nonlethal sneak FINALLY is no longer restricted.

Know how high level rogues in fiction tend to favor singular, deadly attacks and hit and run tactics? Well, the mid-to-high-level attack option of focused sneak attacks actually makes agile movement and skirmishing tactics more relevant for the rogue, allowing the class to contribute without full-attack-blow-trading. What if a rogue can't sneak? Well, then telling blows, a 3rd level ability might offer what you want: Basically, they are short-range debuff attacks.

If all of that seemed too much for you - fret not: The Legendary Rogue class featured herein is just what you've been looking for. Nice to see the concise summary alongside the cherry-pick option...and yes, a significant plethora of short-mechanic centric archetypes that have been rebalanced or retooled are in here as well - from Acrobat to Poisoner to Trapsmith, this book delivers - and the same can be said about the two pages of new feats herein.

Finally, the pdf closes with the 10-level Master Thief PrC - at d8, 8+Int skills, 1/2 Fort-save progression (slightly odd) and 3/4 BAB-progression, we finally have a representation of Thief's Garrett here - casing a joint, combining steal with trip, fast withdraws, downtime-synergy (and kingdom building...) as well as true avoidance of magic, grapples and the like, this damn cool little PrC absolutely ROCKS - it's an iconic concept, well-implemented in a concise and feasible manner.

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting, for the most part of this pdf, are top-notch, I noticed no rules-relevant glitches. Layout adheres to legendary Games' two-column full-color standard and the pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience. The original artworks provided herein are high-quality and nice.

Matt Goodall and Jason Nelson's Legendary Rogue, at first glance, looked like it was too good to be true; and since most books like this are just that, I went on to test the living hell out of this book. Okay, let me make this abundantly clear: No matter the power-level of your campaign, no matter how much you may like the Unchained Rogue, the Glory Rogue or the like - YOU NEED THIS. I didn't realize how much I needed this book until I actually read it. Beyond taking care and fixing several trap options and retaining their feasibility over the levels, beyond a power-upgrade that was sorely required, the legendary rogue as presented herein is still as rogue-y as it can be - and so much more!

The rogue-class' radical redesign herein puts player-agenda at the very highest priority slot and, at the same time, actually manages to retain a sense of cohesion that still allows for the implementation of other 3pp-material within its framework. Additionally, this book cleans up the design-aesthetic and power-level mess that unfortunately took hold of the rogue class and makes the class competitive without losing its soul.

Let me state this loudly and clearly: The Legendary Rogue is the class the Unchained Rogue should imho have been. It is now my default rogue class, particularly since it cleaned up those annoying trap options, ability discrepancies etc. - this is a labor of love, where, with a fine-toothed comb and deliberate care, mechanics were streamlined to actually play better with PFRPG's official other classes. Oh, and if you dislike any component of this book, its supreme versatility does allow you to cherry-pick your preferred option to customize the respective tricks. Now, and this is where the book goes the extra, second extra mile, it also does something only very few crunch books do: It explains its design-rationales in easy to grasp ways for the respective GMs and players perusing this book - so if a particular issue addressed is not one for you, you'll have the pros and cons weighed and listed so you can decide for yourself. Modularity-wise, this is up there with Spheres of Power or the Martial Arts Guidebook in the ways in which its respective options can be used or discarded - and it may even surpass them.

This book, in short, provides the player-driven, versatile rogue I've always been wanting since the inception of 3.0, the class I always longed for, but never got. Legendary Rogue is, without any hyperbole, a truly astonishing, downright brilliant piece of work and will be the standard by which I henceforth measure class-fix-style pdfs. It is simply ridiculously good and a shining example of what a crunch can do; it thus receives 5 stars + seal of approval, nomination for my Top Ten of 2015 and the EZG Essential tag - if it also covered trap-rules and a fix for the Stealth-skill, it would completely replace my previously favorite rogue fix, Rogue Glory, completely; as it stands, Legendary Rogues is a true must-own book for anyone who likes playing rogues and felt that the class fell flat of what it should be able to do, for everyone who wants more customization, options, flair - this is for you and worth every cent of its asking price a hundredfold.

Endzeitgeist out.


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Community Manager

Now available!

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Woohoo, many thanks! Let us pick YOUR pocket today!


Oh man... Hurry up, payday!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Well I hope people like this one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So....this is a rogue focused 48 page (minus legal etc) product with feats, base class, archtypes, PrC, and discussion/analysis/suggestion section? Would there be anything else general category wise that i am missing?

Generally interested in this one but would like to know a little more if possible first.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

There's over 90 rogue talents to give to your rogues (new and updated ones).

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Matt Goodall wrote:
There's over 90 rogue talents to give to your rogues (new and updated ones).

Balanced for both the Core and Unchained rogues?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Justin Sluder wrote:
Matt Goodall wrote:
There's over 90 rogue talents to give to your rogues (new and updated ones).
Balanced for both the Core and Unchained rogues?

Yep. There is a section on implementation for both types of rogue. It talks about how a few talents need to be removed if playing an unchained rogue who has debilitating injury.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

One of the other things I'm really happy about with this product is giving the option to make a lot of the rogue's class features selectable choices.

For example skill specialties are of similar benefit level to trapfinding, and provide scaling bonuses to skills as well as other skill based options. These allow for a rogue to be a master of certain skillsets.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Matt Goodall wrote:

One of the other things I'm really happy about with this product is giving the option to make a lot of the rogue's class features selectable choices.

For example skill specialties are of similar benefit level to trapfinding, and provide scaling bonuses to skills as well as other skill based options. These allow for a rogue to be a master of certain skillsets.

Gadget-like temporary magic items?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Matt Goodall wrote:
There's over 90 rogue talents to give to your rogues (new and updated ones).

Your insight is helpful, thank you for taking the time to share it.

Will give it a look.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Justin Sluder wrote:
Gadget-like temporary magic items?

That would be an interesting option, however, an issue Jason Nelson was concerned about was the size of this product (it's above 25K words when the majority of products in this market sector are a lot smaller). Size influences price and this one may already be getting outside some people's price point. With all the class options in this one, it really didn't have room for magic items.

It's certainly something LG would consider if there was interest. It could fit in nicely with some of our AP support products.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Rathendar wrote:

Your insight is helpful, thank you for taking the time to share it.

Will give it a look.

Happy to help. Let me know how you find it or if you have any questions once you've had a read.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thanks for the review DM_Dudemeister. We were looking for some fun ways to really rev up the rogue in some fun ways, and I think people will have a lot of fun with this book, whether they use parts of it or all of it.


Neat! I'm definitely adding this to my short list of things to buy. Just need more money...

What's next for the Legendary Class line?

-Kcinlive

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kcinlive wrote:

Neat! I'm definitely adding this to my short list of things to buy. Just need more money...

What's next for the Legendary Class line?

-Kcinlive

MWUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Thanks for the review DM_Dudemeister. My thoughts around class design seem to line up with yours. In a lot of ways the amount of different types of concept I can do with a class makes that class more interesting to me. By not making things like evasion, trapfinding, or uncanny dodge compulsory for rogues, you open up a lot of possibilities for the class.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Matt Goodall wrote:
Rathendar wrote:

Your insight is helpful, thank you for taking the time to share it.

Will give it a look.
Happy to help. Let me know how you find it or if you have any questions once you've had a read.

Alright, i went ahead and picked this up last night. Thanks again for the replies. I've done a top level read/skim but haven't fully processed it in depth yet. That being said i liked the design comparative sections which do some of the number breakdowns and various comparisons as to why certain things were chosen to be done.

Not sure if i will use the LR over the UncR, but i will probably at the least allow the UncR to use some of the options.

That being said, i enjoyed a good number of the little additions, the acrobatics AoO fishing being one that made me chuckle.

Thanks for the work put into this.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Jason and Matt, this is the best 3rd party book that I have bought.
Please work with Hero Lab to get Herolab files for this most awesome book.

The 90 talents just rock everything elese is just as good.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Thanks Lou, glad you enjoying it. A lot of thought certainly went into getting everything into place.


90 new rogue talents? Do they at least give us some guidelines on which talents are best suited to whatever 'theme' you have for your rogue character? It might be a bit overwhelming otherwise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Eric Hinkle wrote:
90 new rogue talents? Do they at least give us some guidelines on which talents are best suited to whatever 'theme' you have for your rogue character? It might be a bit overwhelming otherwise.

The redone rogue archtypes have talent suggestions for their theme, i believe.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Do they at least give us some guidelines on which talents are best suited to whatever 'theme' you have for your rogue character? It might be a bit overwhelming otherwise.

There is the equivalent of a 'feat summary table' that lists each talent and a brief one line description of each. The table takes up 3 pages by itself but should give a rogue player looking for an appropriate talent a quick and easy way to find suitable options.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Lou Diamond wrote:

Jason and Matt, this is the best 3rd party book that I have bought.

Please work with Hero Lab to get Herolab files for this most awesome book.

The 90 talents just rock everything elese is just as good.

Thanks for the kind words, Lou. If you could take a few minutes to write up a quick review, we would be most appreciative!

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

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By the way, just a high-five to Matt for this book, which was #2 on Paizo's Top Ten Downloads from Other Companies 2 weeks ago, and NUMBER ONE last week! Let's see if it keeps the championship belt this week!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

The Legendary Rogues sneak in, steal the treasure, and then slink out again. Translated: Back to number seven this week. However I'm planning for a long career of larceny for this rogue, or in other words I'm hoping this product will continue to do well especially after its great start.


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Matt Goodall wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Do they at least give us some guidelines on which talents are best suited to whatever 'theme' you have for your rogue character? It might be a bit overwhelming otherwise.
There is the equivalent of a 'feat summary table' that lists each talent and a brief one line description of each. The table takes up 3 pages by itself but should give a rogue player looking for an appropriate talent a quick and easy way to find suitable options.

Thanks for this information. I think I'll be getting this one, though not until after purchasing the Paladins PDF.


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Having purchased and read this, I can honestly say that I have never waited to play a rogue nearly as much as I do right now. Seriously, I was thinking of how to do rogue characters headed for both the Aldori Swordlord and Noble Scion PrCs within moments. This PDF is such an embarrassment of riches; I'll be surprised if this doesn't end up in Endzeitgeist's "Best Ten of the Year" list.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

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We'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to write a review for any LG product, and today we'd like to thank Endzeitgeist for his rave review on this book! You can read Endzeitgeist's full review here on his site (and I'm sure he'll post it here at some point), but here are his conclusions:

Matt Goodall and Jason Nelson’s Legendary Rogue, at first glance, looked like it was too good to be true; and since most books like this are just that, I went on to test the living hell out of this book. Okay, let me make this abundantly clear: No matter the power-level of your campaign, no matter how much you may like the Unchained Rogue, the Glory Rogue or the like – YOU NEED THIS. I didn’t realize how much I needed this book until I actually read it. Beyond taking care and fixing several trap options and retaining their feasibility over the levels, beyond a power-upgrade that was sorely required, the legendary rogue as presented herein is still as rogue-y as it can be – and so much more!

Let me state this loudly and clearly: The Legendary Rogue is the class the Unchained Rogue should imho have been. It is now my default rogue class, particularly since it cleaned up those annoying trap options, ability discrepancies etc. – this is a labor of love, where, with a fine-toothed comb and deliberate care, mechanics were streamlined to actually play better with PFRPG’s official other classes. Oh, and if you dislike any component of this book, its supreme versatility does allow you to cherry-pick your preferred option to customize the respective tricks. Now, and this is where the book goes the extra, second extra mile, it also does something only very few crunch books do: It explains its design-rationales in easy to grasp ways for the respective GMs and players perusing this book – so if a particular issue addressed is not one for you, you’ll have the pros and cons weighed and listed so you can decide for yourself. Modularity-wise, this is up there with Spheres of Power or the Martial Arts Guidebook in the ways in which its respective options can be used or discarded – and it may even surpass them.

This book, in short, provides the player-driven, versatile rogue I’ve always been wanting since the inception of 3.0, the class I always longed for, but never got. Legendary Rogue is, without any hyperbole, a truly astonishing, downright brilliant piece of work and will be the standard by which I henceforth measure class-fix-style pdfs. It is simply ridiculously good and a shining example of what a crunch can do; it thus receives 5 stars + seal of approval, nomination for my Top Ten of 2015 and the EZG Essential tag – if it also covered trap-rules and a fix for the Stealth-skill, it would completely replace my previously favorite rogue fix, Rogue Glory, completely; as it stands, Legendary Rogues is a true must-own book for anyone who likes playing rogues and felt that the class fell flat of what it should be able to do, for everyone who wants more customization, options, flair – this is for you and worth every cent of its asking price a hundredfold.

You can pick up Legendary Rogues right here on Paizo, at the Legendary Games webstore or wherever fine Pathfinder products are sold!


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Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop.

RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut, Contributor

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Thanks, Thilo! I know Matt and Jason have got to be ecstatic with that review. Matt especially since he poured his heart and soul into addressing a lot of the perceived problems with rogues. Looks like that really resonated with you.


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Aye, and it shows - it is only very rarely that I get to see a book this concisely researched, this detailed and versatile. It's absolutely stunning; the rogue I always wanted. If Paizo's watching - the Unchained Rogue was a good step forward, but if you do a second edition, look at this design; it's the rogue I always wanted for any d20-based game.

Absolutely brilliant.


When can we have a Legendary Rogues II with more talents and archetypes? Please make a rogue with panache and an updated Amateur Gunslinger/Swashbuckler talent!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Thanks for the kind thoughts Bardess, I'll have a chat to Jason about it.

Silver Crusade

Query: This supplement offers the option of replacing the bewildered penalty of the unchained rogue's debilitating injury with both advantageous attack and combat prowess. I'm assuming that these options are available immediately upon attaining the class feature at 4th rather than getting access to them at 7th and 5th level respectively, or are the level restrictions still in place to restrict class dipping?


Bardess wrote:
When can we have a Legendary Rogues II with more talents and archetypes? Please make a rogue with panache and an updated Amateur Gunslinger/Swashbuckler talent!

I'd love to see this myself. As well as some more Legendary PDFs covering the other classes.


I tried to make something like this myself.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

Blayde MacRonan wrote:
Query: This supplement offers the option of replacing the bewildered penalty of the unchained rogue's debilitating injury with both advantageous attack and combat prowess. I'm assuming that these options are available immediately upon attaining the class feature at 4th rather than getting access to them at 7th and 5th level respectively, or are the level restrictions still in place to restrict class dipping?

The combat prowess ability is placed at the levels that the legendary rogue doesn't naturally get +1 BAB (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). This gives the legendary rogue 19 out of 20 attack bonus at 20th level (but not the extra attack that comes with having full BAB). The advantageous attack ability is interspersed between the combat prowess bonuses to give a better chance to hit with sneak attacks. So I wouldn't call them restrictions but, as you say, is it more to spread out the bonuses so that the class isn't too 'dippable'.

IMO the unchained rogue is a bit too front loaded and dippable (to 3rd or 4th level).

One option to consider is to start the advantageous attack bonuses a little earlier, at 3rd or 4th level. That way it becomes a bit more of a choice if someone is only considering 3 or 4 levels of rogue, and trying to decide between the unchained version and the legendary version (or a combination of both). That way it is a choice between a +1 on all sneak attack rolls or a larger bonus (+4) but only on the second sneak attack in a round and only lasting for a round.


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I have another question: if someone like myself wants to discuss how to change over an old rogue archetype (the Skulking Slayer from the Advanced Race Guide) to the new class in this PDF, is that best done here or somewhere else in the forums?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

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Probably better here, that way it is all together (and easier for people to find).

For the Skulking Slayer, some things are pretty easy to fit in.

Combining Pass for Human (+1/2 rogue level to Disguise checks, no penalty for a specific individual of a different race) and Shifty (+1/2 rogue level to Bluff checks to feint) into a skill specialty and making it the skill specialty gained at 1st level is a good fit.

The bonus feats are fine, after all a rogue talent should be equal/close to the power of a feat. Replacing the +8 BAB prereq for Improved Surprise Follow-through with a prereq of being an 8th level rogue would work.

For Bold Strike (1d8 sneak attacks when charging with a 2 handed weapon), having this ability replace Telling Blow doesn't seem unreasonable.

For Unexpected Charge the wording needs a little bit of cleaning up to specifically allow the Skulking Slayer to feint a target who is a goodly distance away. Having this ability replace Outmaneuvering Sneak seems reasonable, Skulking Slayers seem to be designed to use feints and surprise follow-through to gain their sneak attacks rather than being an expert at flanking.

For Underhanded Maneuvers (make steal and dirty trick maneuvers with a bonus instead of sneak attacks) I'm still considering. It's probably worth a talent (inherent talent) but I'd want to change the wording a little.

For the greatclub and whip, I'd modify the Weapon & Armor Profs, but given legendary rogues already get proficiency with whips and a one-handed martial weapon I can't see a problem.

The loss of skill ranks and class skills seems unnecessary, given the other trade outs are fairly balanced.

That's just me brainstorming, let me know what you think.

Matt


Matt Goodall wrote:

Probably better here, that way it is all together (and easier for people to find).

For the Skulking Slayer, some things are pretty easy to fit in.

Combining Pass for Human (+1/2 rogue level to Disguise checks, no penalty for a specific individual of a different race) and Shifty (+1/2 rogue level to Bluff checks to feint) into a skill specialty and making it the skill specialty gained at 1st level is a good fit.

The bonus feats are fine, after all a rogue talent should be equal/close to the power of a feat. Replacing the +8 BAB prereq for Improved Surprise Follow-through with a prereq of being an 8th level rogue would work.

For Bold Strike (1d8 sneak attacks when charging with a 2 handed weapon), having this ability replace Telling Blow doesn't seem unreasonable.

For Unexpected Charge the wording needs a little bit of cleaning up to specifically allow the Skulking Slayer to feint a target who is a goodly distance away. Having this ability replace Outmaneuvering Sneak seems reasonable, Skulking Slayers seem to be designed to use feints and surprise follow-through to gain their sneak attacks rather than being an expert at flanking.

For Underhanded Maneuvers (make steal and dirty trick maneuvers with a bonus instead of sneak attacks) I'm still considering. It's probably worth a talent (inherent talent) but I'd want to change the wording a little.

For the greatclub and whip, I'd modify the Weapon & Armor Profs, but given legendary rogues already get proficiency with whips and a one-handed martial weapon I can't see a problem.

The loss of skill ranks and class skills seems unnecessary, given the other trade outs are fairly balanced.

That's just me brainstorming, let me know what you think.

Matt

It all sounds wonderful to me, thank you so very much!


To Jason and/or Matt,

In the posts up above, it seems that y'all were going to talk about a possible future expansion product for Legendary Rogues. Which makes sense, because nothing but 5-star ratings and customer enthusiasm seems to follow the purchase of L.R. (count me in as a thrilled & inspired customer).

So ... in light of that .... I was just curious if y'all have an update on that possible pursuit. :-)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

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Had a quick chat with Jason (whose queue of "things to do" runs very long), over the weekend. Currently, my personal plan is to work on Legendary Fighters before coming back to Legendary Rogues 2.

If you want to give some ideas of subjects you'd like explored in LR2 then that may lure me away from other pursuits. :-)

Grand Lodge

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I often check Liz Courts' new product posts, because I have found material that I didn't know I needed.

Do Want This!

I have had a soft spot for Rogues after playing a Scoundrel in a d20 Star Wars game. (Mention of this game system is not a challenge to copyright. I think I can get away with that. ;) )

I always look for EZG's review of a Pathfinder product when I'm interested in it. Given his review, I want to buy this next month, when I have room for it in my PDF budget.


Matt Goodall wrote:

Had a quick chat with Jason (whose queue of "things to do" runs very long), over the weekend. Currently, my personal plan is to work on Legendary Fighters before coming back to Legendary Rogues 2.

I personally am looking forward to Legendary Fighters.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Eric Hinkle wrote:
Matt Goodall wrote:

Had a quick chat with Jason (whose queue of "things to do" runs very long), over the weekend. Currently, my personal plan is to work on Legendary Fighters before coming back to Legendary Rogues 2.

I personally am looking forward to Legendary Fighters.

Me too!

Current to-do list is taxes first!

Then finish up one of the dozen or more things floating around my desk!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

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Number 8 in Endzeitgeist's Top 10 for 2015! :D


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I finally posted my review for this one, after having it be eaten by the site several times!


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Nice review, Eric!! And fyi: This is the rogue-class in my games now. I never looked back. :D


Thanks End! And yeah, I'd prefer using this as the new rogue class in my own games as well.

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