TanithT |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
TanithT wrote:There is no clearer way to send the message that this product is not for women than to make the female character into a sex object at the expense of her effectiveness as an adventurer.What exactly are you talking about here?
Dat @$$.
If your female fighter looks like she is dressed for a kinky fetish party and she is fighting ice trolls on a glacier, that's problematic. Not because porn is bad, but because she is being shown as someone else's porn fantasy rather than actually being the hero of her own fantasy. She isn't a real fighter with actual armor or anything. She's only exists to give the real heroes the reward of eye candy. In a nutshell, that's the problem.
Porn is great and all, but the thing about porn is that it is generally made for the enjoyment of one gender and orientation. It tells the people who aren't that gender or orientation that this book is not for them and they are not being considered as customers.
This is a non problem when it actually is porn. It does become a problem in the gaming hobby, because gaming is not only supposed to be for heterosexual men. That's a pretty alienating message to everyone who doesn't happen to be of that gender and orientation.
If you're going to dress the fighters in kinky fetish wear with teeny little leather straps and their butts stuck out provocatively in the air, do it to both sexes. And don't do it in the snow. That has got to be one seriously uncomfortable fetish party.
Kalindlara Contributor |
Well they have the Storm King here with his hips that certainly don't lie ;)
I... do not know how to feel about that. ^_^
Odraude |
Odraude wrote:Well they have the Storm King here with his hips that certainly don't lie ;)I... do not know how to feel about that. ^_^
I know how my girlfriend felt when she saw it. And i know what I'm cosplaying as for her ;)
....once I lose my gut... and get a big bushy beard...
Zhangar |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The camera shot's goofy, but I can't exactly agree that a depiction of the iconic barbarian looking like a barbarian, diving into a group of frost giants, and kicking their asses is a demeaning portrayal.
Hell, two covers earlier she's chopping a hill giant's head in half.
(Also, glamoured armor and endure elements means she's probably perfectly well equipped and quite comfortable, because magic =P)
It would've been pretty sweet if the entire AP cover set was Amiri killing the hell out of giants, but we'll have to settle for only half of the AP covers showing Amiri killing the hell out of giants, and looking good while doing it.
Alex Smith 908 |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Gonna be honest the whole cover has a very 90s comic book anatomy going for everyone. Humanoid heads do not attach to torsos even remotely like that frost giant's appears to. The lady frost giant appears to have breasts whose spacing indicates a massive extra chest muscle between both of her pectorals. Then mister flying frost giant has a horrible case of the Liefeld legs. The most correctly humanoid looking on is the foreground graveknight, and an undead monstrosity should not be the healthiest looking person on a cover.
Zaister |
Zaister wrote:Dat @$$.TanithT wrote:There is no clearer way to send the message that this product is not for women than to make the female character into a sex object at the expense of her effectiveness as an adventurer.What exactly are you talking about here?
Hm, I can't even really see that on the tiny picture, but I understand what your argument is about, and I am completely with you. This is very unusual for Paizo.
However, if you're not only arguing about the posture, but also the barbarian's attire, please consider that these are iconic characters that are supposed to be recognizable and always have the same clothing and equipment.
By the way, as a man, personally I can find nothing titillating about this posture.
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm with Jim. From what I know of Paizo (and especially Paizo's art department) I cannot imagine they asked for an Amiri panty-shot for this cover.
More likely, that was a choice made by the artist, and they were unable to send it back for revision or find an alternative in time print. That's certainly happened in the past.
Of course, that's just my theory, I don't know for sure.
Reckless |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dat @$$.
If your female fighter looks like she is dressed for a kinky fetish party and she is fighting ice trolls on a glacier, that's problematic. Not because porn is bad, but because she is being shown as someone else's porn fantasy rather than actually being the hero of her own fantasy. She isn't a real fighter with actual armor or anything. She's only exists to give the real heroes the reward of eye candy. In a nutshell, that's the problem.
Translation:
She can't possibly be the hero, despite the fact that she is taking on 3-4 giants at once and completely pwning them. She's dressed like freaking Ostog the Unslain. That touches hormone driven teenage boys in their no-no places.
Good thing she wasn't paired up with Seoni, I'd they'd never be able to look at the cover without getting hot and bothered.
**********
Seriously though, what's "porn" to one is not "porn" to another. I understand what your saying, and I completely disagree with your analysis. On that same piece of art (covered by the gravenight, but revealed inside on the on the cover art page) our fully dressed inquisitor is shown from a similar angle, mid-leap, firing her bow, her back turned towards the viewer. All of the giants are focused on Amiri, because she is the hero in this piece of art. And she's winning.
Reckless |
That's Seoni's job, Gorbi. Sideboob for all the boys. You'll have to wait until she's featured again, sorry.
On second thought, maybe she is. Maybe that's why all the giants are focused on her. Can't be because she's the biggest threat.
EDIT:Or, if you prefer, we get plenty of oddly-shapen cleavage from the one female giantess.
Lava Child |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm for respectful dipictions of female heroes in RPGs. I get the feeling that the artist, who've I've met and talked to, was looking to get serious action shots for the backgrounds - getting the iconics off of the ground in creative ways. Amiri has lower leg armor and a loincloth, so if she is up and attacking at that angle, that's kinda what it is going to look like. Perhaps not the best decision, as my wife and I have discussed, but maybe not meant for fanservice, but for dynamism. Let's let the artist talk about his intent before we make judgements about intent.
Alex Smith 908 |
Looking at this some more I'm really thinking it's not any sort of fanservice intent so much as lack of artistic skill in this particular execution. Namely severe mistakes in foreshortening (for Amiri) and disastrous anatomy (the giants).
Though something that should be pointed out for the porn/not porn debate bit. The art isn't focused on Amiri being a hero. Like it isn't really focusing on her as eye candy. The focus is the giants' reaction. Amiri is exiting the piece and the giants are giving pursuit and/or trying to get out of her way. This is a perfectly serviceable idea, showing her as more a force of nature than a specific character. However the actual execution looking very very goofy, mostly thanks to the failure to convey distance/depth properly. Amiri's hips are like twice the size of her head here, that isn't her normal portrayal. If that was the entire focus of the piece I could see the fan service argument, but she isn't. In fact the visibly old and ugly giantess is far more the focus of the piece which really would go counter to any titillation. The butt size looks to be entirely the fault of bad foreshortening.
So we have a bad cover but by virtue of incompetence rather than sexism.
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 |
Generic Villain |
Anyway, there's lots of murder, mayhem, and magic between the covers! Any thoughts about what is inside?
EDIT:Innuendo is like gum on a theater floor. You step in it despite your best efforts.
I liked the graveknight article; a nice companion piece to the lich article back in Carrion Crown. In fact I accidentally posted the following in Shadow of the Storm Tyrant:
If you know your Thassilon lore, each Runelord had a champion who wielded one of the Seven Swords of Sin. Runelord Zutha's champion, first mentioned in Artifacts and Legends, was called Ungarato. He now officially has stats (though is not statted):
CE male human graveknight barbarian 12/fighter 7/marshal 4.
That means he is at least challenge rating 22 (and likely 23, if his equipment is PC-quality) - making him quite a bit stronger than Zutha!
As for the adventure itself? I liked it overall.
Positives
*An interesting variety of opponents. Frost giants and winter wolves were expected; necromorphs and a daughter of Urgathoa were not. The svathurim/dullahan hybrid in particular was a nice touch.
*I liked the tension between the Thremyr-worshipping old guard and the Urgathoans. The suggestion that even thoroughly evil frost giants are creeped out by undead.
*Liked the mechanic where, if the PCs mess up too much, Skirkatla sends powerful creatures to hunt them down. The fact that one of those creatures is more powerful than Skirkatla herself is also a cool touch.
*Good effort towards realism. A not-insignificant part of the adventure deals with how such a large group of giants stay fed.
Negatives
*It felt a bit too similar to the last adventure. As in: go to a remote giant-infested wilderness, do some sandbox-y adventuring, then end up in a large dungeon with the Big Bad.
*No explanation for why Skirkatla has a dead bird stuck to her helmet.
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 |
Generic Villain |
Thanks for the comments G.V.! I appreciate the feedback!
Glad to be of assistance.
And now, a question: roughly speaking, how many frost giants (or just giants in general) would you say are currently active on the plateau?
I know the adventure is structured specifically to avoid a "PCs vs. every last giant" scenario, so the number is kept intentionally vague. But for purely story-based reasons, I'm curious what kind of force the big guy is assembling, even just unofficially.
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 |
And now, a question: roughly speaking, how many frost giants (or just giants in general) would you say are currently active on the plateau?
I know the adventure is structured specifically to avoid a "PCs vs. every last giant" scenario, so the number is kept intentionally vague. But for purely story-based reasons, I'm curious what kind of force the big guy is assembling, even just unofficially.
Why don't we take this to the GM discussion thread down below? I'll watch for the question and reply. I think that thread would be most appropriate for nuts and bolts discussion. :)
Major_Blackhart |
So, off topic but dealing with the Graveknight section of the book. Specifically Ungarato and other barbarians. Nowadays the Kellid people tend to worship Gorum or Rovagug, though the Rough Beast is in lesser numbers than Gorum. Gorum however did not turn his vision to Golarion until the Orcs arose from the earth and made glorious war upon man. So, what God would Ungarato and others have worshipped during the time of the Runelords if not Gorum?
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 |
BERKVILDR p. 41 has domain spells but no domain listed
what is the domain?
Chopswil, I flagged your post for being in the wrong forum. I will copy and paste it, and answer it in the correct forum. Nothing personal intended, I just want to foster open discussion here and mechanical discussions in the thread reserved just for GMs. And its a good question!
Forum Mods, I'm fine with you deleting this post.
Lord Gadigan |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lictor Shokneir, of the Hellknight Order of the Crux, Ruler of Citadel Gheisteno
Xin-Undoros, Warpriest of Lissala, Guardian of the Emerald Chambers
Gallus Galonnica, Former Chelish Opera Singer
Holgona, Dwarven Graveknight Lurking Beneath the Capital of Belkzin
Nahljari Halkiri, Native to the Island that became Jalmeray, Fought against the Arclords in Life
Riderless Wraith, Horse Graveknight, Former Steed to the Harcatha Line in Irrisen
Sebastius Wright, Gray Gardener Who Got Turned On and Thrown to the Mob
Seldeg Bhedus, Former Knight of Ozem, Now Servant to Arazni and Geb
Kalindlara Contributor |
Lictor Shokneir, of the Hellknight Order of the Crux, Ruler of Citadel Gheisteno
Xin-Undoros, Warpriest of Lissala, Guardian of the Emerald Chambers
Gallus Galonnica, Former Chelish Opera Singer
Holgona, Dwarven Graveknight Lurking Beneath the Capital of Belkzin
Nahljari Halkiri, Native to the Island that became Jalmeray, Fought against the Arclords in Life
Riderless Wraith, Horse Graveknight, Former Steed to the Harcatha Line in Irrisen
Sebastius Wright, Gray Gardener Who Got Turned On and Thrown to the Mob
Seldeg Bhedus, Former Knight of Ozem, Now Servant to Arazni and Geb
Wow...
Really looking forward to this article now! ^_^
Gambit |
Hopefully one of these can beat Saint Kargath in cool factor, or come close to Lord Soth. Ungarato has some cool to him based on history bits posted so far. Looking forward to this article.
The original Death Knight, causer (or at least non-preventer) of the Cataclysm that befell his world, owner of his own castle of horror on Krynn, and a Dark Lord with his own Domain of Dread in Ravenloft...thats gonna be tough to beat. ;)
Even Arthas is number 2 on the all time Death Knight list behind Soth, and I loved Warcraft 3 something fierce.
Liz Courts Community Manager |
Rathendar wrote:Hopefully one of these can beat Saint Kargath in cool factor, or come close to Lord Soth. Ungarato has some cool to him based on history bits posted so far. Looking forward to this article.The original Death Knight, causer (or at least non-preventer) of the Cataclysm that befell his world, owner of his own castle of horror on Krynn, and a Dark Lord with his own Domain of Dread in Ravenloft...thats gonna be tough to beat. ;)
Even Arthas is number 2 on the all time Death Knight list behind Soth, and I loved Warcraft 3 something fierce.
I still have an intense desire to paint "Lord Soth's Charge" by Parkinson on a wall somewhere.
Adam Daigle Developer |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, one of the grave knights being a horse is amazing.
When John turned over his manuscript I was all, "Dude? Really?" But it was super rad, so I kept it. I've always liked these kinds of articles because they help expand the idea of what can and can't work for certain things. I enjoyed exploring this same thing with the lich article I wrote back in Carrion Crown.
John Compton Developer |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Zhangar wrote:Okay, one of the grave knights being a horse is amazing.When John turned over his manuscript I was all, "Dude? Really?" But it was super rad, so I kept it. I've always liked these kinds of articles because they help expand the idea of what can and can't work for certain things. I enjoyed exploring this same thing with the lich article I wrote back in Carrion Crown.
When outlining which graveknights to include, I wanted to strike a balance between graveknights that we've mentioned elsewhere and completely new ones. Many of the existing graveknights do a great job at filling what I would consider a "classic" role of the unrepentant undead warlord in full plate, so I tried to present the new guys with a variety of armor types, classes, and backgrounds to really push the envelope of what kinds of stories we can tell with this delightful creature template. I'm rather pleased with how it turned out, and I'm glad that people are enjoying the article.
John Compton Developer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hopefully one of these can beat Saint Kargath in cool factor, or come close to Lord Soth. Ungarato has some cool to him based on history bits posted so far. Looking forward to this article.
I have fond memories of Lord Soth, and as others rightfully point out, outclassing him in the course of several hundred words would be a tall order. That said, I think you'll find a lot of really fun graveknights in here that you could use to tell equally engaging stories. Let me know what you think when you get your copy.
justmebd |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gambit wrote:I still have an intense desire to paint "Lord Soth's Charge" by Parkinson on a wall somewhere.Rathendar wrote:Hopefully one of these can beat Saint Kargath in cool factor, or come close to Lord Soth. Ungarato has some cool to him based on history bits posted so far. Looking forward to this article.The original Death Knight, causer (or at least non-preventer) of the Cataclysm that befell his world, owner of his own castle of horror on Krynn, and a Dark Lord with his own Domain of Dread in Ravenloft...thats gonna be tough to beat. ;)
Even Arthas is number 2 on the all time Death Knight list behind Soth, and I loved Warcraft 3 something fierce.
To this day, I wish I could get the original and hang it on a wall in my house. I'm a Keith Parkinson geek, but Lord Soth's Charge remains my favorite of his work. An absolutely STUNNING painting. The world lost a great artist when he passed.
Matthew Prior |
Can the art team please fix the terrible out of true scaling on the maps going forward? They're wrong in both the printed book and the Interactive Map pdf. Makes using them on VTT extremely painful as there is literally no grid overlay that lines up with the squares even if you resize the image. I can live with the poor resolution when using the maps as visuals but having one "square" be a completely different size than the one next to it is getting to me. This has been a problem on nearly every gridded map going back and forward a number of APs. If it's an artifact of the resizing for book resolution, can we start getting original resolution PDF maps included with the digital copy?