So I am the GM for a 6 party campaign and have allowed only the rules from the core rulebook and the APG. Along with those rules I have also allowed the traits from the back of the APG. Everything was going great during character building when the party druid and wizard each took separate traits that when combined I wasn't sure how to incorporate. The druid took the trait magical lineage and for his feat reach spell. This way he always prepares a cure light wounds at reach to cast on his animal companion. (The druid is more ranged support anyways.) Now the wizard is planning on taking almost nothing but item creation feats, so he took the hedge magician trait. After comparing their characters, they decided to have the wizard start scribing the druids cure light wounds spell with the reach and magical lineage. My question is this then:
Does the scroll then cost 11.875 gp to create? If so, what is the cost if they would sell the item, 12.5 gp or 75gp (2nd level spell 3rd level caster to normally create this scroll)? I am guessing that it should be the 11.875gp to create since they expended the feats and traits to do so.
However, I can't imagine that an enterprising cleric, who could do this by himself (without the hedge magician), would not try to sell his level 1 scrolls (to create) at a higher cost since they perform as a level 2 spell.
Thanks
*edit* The cost discepancy goes even higher with the higher level spells. For example, the wizard has the magical lineage trait with the widen spell and starts scribing scrolls of widen fireball for only 2 levels higher. I know this is a bad example of use of this spell but for the sake of argument. What would the cost be to create and then sell this scroll?
I don't think the wizard can scribe the druids spell. Based off of this line from Scribe Scroll.
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
A single class could not get both magical lineage and hedge magician since you are only allowed 1 trait per category.
I'm not sure on the prices. There's probably someone a little better with that around here.
Ferro is correct on both accounts. The concept is not legal.
Depending on who you ask, and how they read the rules. Some will say NO, some will say Yes.
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If you on the line of YES
That being said, the scroll does not have the Magic Lineage Trait. So you are either just creating a normal scroll of cure light wounds ( 1 x 1 x 25) = 25 gold retail/12.5 cost; Or you are creating a scroll of Reach Cure Light wounds (2 x 3 x 25) = 150 gold reatil/ 75 cost.
Then apply the 5% reduction due to the Wizard trait of crafting reduction. (note that both the druid and wizard must spend the same amount of time together while crafting.) (Also, why is the wizard helping out the druid, is he getting paid in gold, gifts, or favors)
Cure light wounds = 23 gold 75 silver retail / 11 gold 87 silver 5 copper cost.
Reach cure light wounds = 142 gold 50 silver retail / 71 gold 25 silver cost.
So I am the GM for a 6 party campaign and have allowed only the rules from the core rulebook and the APG. Along with those rules I have also allowed the traits from the back of the APG. Everything was going great during character building when the party druid and wizard each took separate traits that when combined I wasn't sure how to incorporate. The druid took the trait magical lineage and for his feat reach spell. This way he always prepares a cure light wounds at reach to cast on his animal companion. (The druid is more ranged support anyways.) Now the wizard is planning on taking almost nothing but item creation feats, so he took the hedge magician trait. After comparing their characters, they decided to have the wizard start scribing the druids cure light wounds spell with the reach and magical lineage. My question is this then:
Does the scroll then cost 11.875 gp to create? If so, what is the cost if they would sell the item, 12.5 gp or 75gp (2nd level spell 3rd level caster to normally create this scroll)? I am guessing that it should be the 11.875gp to create since they expended the feats and traits to do so.
However, I can't imagine that an enterprising cleric, who could do this by himself (without the hedge magician), would not try to sell his level 1 scrolls (to create) at a higher cost since they perform as a level 2 spell.
Thanks
*edit* The cost discepancy goes even higher with the higher level spells. For example, the wizard has the magical lineage trait with the widen spell and starts scribing scrolls of widen fireball for only 2 levels higher. I know this is a bad example of use of this spell but for the sake of argument. What would the cost be to create and then sell this scroll?
The trait gives a reduction for the purposes of casting IMHO. I can see the price ruled either way, but I stand by my previous position on the wizard casting a non-wizard spell.
Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.
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A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)
B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.
C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)
D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.
E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that someone can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).
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Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.
Like i said before, around and around we go, were we stop...is up to your individual Game Master to know.
Unless we hear something official, it looks like it is left up to the individual Game Master to decide which method they want to use. The way the rules are written, and how people have interpreted those said rules, all seem reasonable to me.
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As noted on this Tread
RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSE'S SPELLS
To clarify, I hold to the argument that others can provide the spell casting for another person to create the item. Thus the druid can provide the reach cure lt wounds spell for the wizard to cast. Option D that Oliver McShade posts above.
Neither character has both traits by themselves and as such both characters by themselves are valid.
Take the druid example out of the equation then for those that view scribing scroll as needing to cast the spell yourself. What about the cost for widened fireball with magical lineage. That allows you to create a 6th level spell for the cost of a 5th level spell. To create that scroll would it cost 562.5 gold? If so, what would the selling cost be? 562.5 gold or would it sell as its 6th level spell cost of 825 gold? It would seem strange to charge the wizard the 825 gold to create the scroll when for him it is only a level 5 spell.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Notice the bolded line very specifically says you must meet the spell prerequisites in order to create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items. Scrolls and wands fall into this category.
Regarding the scroll of widened fireball. I think it would sell for the crafting cost. Not the cost as if it was a 6th level spell. Through use of that trait it is not a 6th level spell, it's a 5th. Anyone who uses that scroll would be treating it as a 5th level spell. Since no character can have both of those traits this would require a convoluted creation process;
Wizard A with Magical Lineage, Scribe Scroll, and fireball
Wizard B with Hedge Wizard, Scribe Scroll, and Cooperative Crafting
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.Notice the bolded line very specifically says you must meet the spell prerequisites in order to create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items. Scrolls and wands fall into this category.
Regarding the scroll of widened fireball. I think it would sell for the crafting cost. Not the cost as if it was a 6th level spell. Through use of that trait it is not a 6th level spell, it's a 5th. Anyone who uses that scroll would be treating it as a 5th level spell. Since no character can have both of those traits this would require a convoluted creation process;
Wizard A with Magical Lineage, Scribe Scroll, and fireball
Wizard B with Hedge Wizard, Scribe Scroll, and Cooperative Crafting
I read it as, another source can provide the spell. And Option D is also how i read magic item creation.
NOT BY RAW
Badly worded. As sorcerer get one advantage out of it, while cleric/wizard get another advantage from it.
And can see the trait as an Ability or Effect on a spell.
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Humm... as DM i would not allow the trait to care over to magic items.
I would allow you to cast a normal scroll (in this case cure light wounds), and add any meta magic feat (1 level or lower) to the spell as it being cast. Which is one way of reading the trait.
As i will treat Traits as Ability.
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Obviously there is some contention about whether the scroll can be created by the wizard with the druid providing the spell. However, if in a given campaign it can be done:
The druid has magical lineage (cure light wounds). With it, he can prepare reach cure light wounds as a 1st level spell for close range. It's a first level spell.
The wizard has hedge magician feat, and can thus produce scrolls at 5% off of cost.
If possible, the wizard can then make the metamagicked scroll of reach cure light wounds for 95% of 12.5gp, or 11.85gp. It is a first level spell with caster level 1. He could make the caster level as high as his caster level, increasing the cost linearly.
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As for market value and economics, it's wonky because the game isn't designed to be Dollars & Donuts. When you push on the system, it falls apart. Expecting it to make sense is a futile exercise.
I read it as, another source can provide the spell. And Option D is also how i read magic item creation.Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.Notice the bolded line very specifically says you must meet the spell prerequisites in order to create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items. Scrolls and wands fall into this category.
Regarding the scroll of widened fireball. I think it would sell for the crafting cost. Not the cost as if it was a 6th level spell. Through use of that trait it is not a 6th level spell, it's a 5th. Anyone who uses that scroll would be treating it as a 5th level spell. Since no character can have both of those traits this would require a convoluted creation process;
Wizard A with Magical Lineage, Scribe Scroll, and fireball
Wizard B with Hedge Wizard, Scribe Scroll, and Cooperative Crafting
It seems to be that by seperating spell completion and spell trigger items they are saying you have to do those on your own. I can think of no other reason to call them out. Every time I have seen something called out it is because it is an exception to the normal rule.
It seems to be that by seperating spell completion and spell trigger items they are saying you have to do those on your own. I can think of no other reason to call them out. Every time I have seen something called out it is because it is an exception to the normal rule.I read it as, another source can provide the spell. And Option D is also how i read magic item creation.Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.Notice the bolded line very specifically says you must meet the spell prerequisites in order to create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items. Scrolls and wands fall into this category.
Regarding the scroll of widened fireball. I think it would sell for the crafting cost. Not the cost as if it was a 6th level spell. Through use of that trait it is not a 6th level spell, it's a 5th. Anyone who uses that scroll would be treating it as a 5th level spell. Since no character can have both of those traits this would require a convoluted creation process;
Wizard A with Magical Lineage, Scribe Scroll, and fireball
Wizard B with Hedge Wizard, Scribe Scroll, and Cooperative Crafting
The way i read it, they called out spell completion and spell trigger, because you can NOT take +5 to your DC check. The actual spell needs to be provided.
You have to provide the actual spell (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
So, back to option D as i read the rules.
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Personally, I don't get into the magic item creation debates at the "what can I do" level any more because I think that the rules are ambiguous and contradictory. They don't represent what would come out of someone seeking to write a coherent ruleset for the topic. Rather, they are a few new ideas tacked on to an older set of rules that was, in itself, troublesome. The result is a mess that is in dire need of a patch.
Personally, I don't get into the magic item creation debates at the "what can I do" level any more because I think that the rules are ambiguous and contradictory. They don't represent what would come out of someone seeking to write a coherent ruleset for the topic. Rather, they are a few new ideas tacked on to an older set of rules that was, in itself, troublesome. The result is a mess that is in dire need of a patch.
Ah, Now that i whole heartedly agree with. It is a mess !
Personally, I don't get into the magic item creation debates at the "what can I do" level any more because I think that the rules are ambiguous and contradictory. They don't represent what would come out of someone seeking to write a coherent ruleset for the topic. Rather, they are a few new ideas tacked on to an older set of rules that was, in itself, troublesome. The result is a mess that is in dire need of a patch.
I agree or an explanation. Something similar to a "rules of the game" article would be nice.