paizo.com Recent Posts in Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDF Discussionpaizo.com Recent Posts in Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDF Discussion2015-12-29T00:20:49Z2015-12-29T00:20:49ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFEndzeitgeisthttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#122017-08-23T09:13:28Z2017-08-23T09:13:28Z<p>Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to NErdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS, etc.</p>Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to NErdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS, etc.Endzeitgeist2017-08-23T09:13:28ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFkjdavieshttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#112015-02-19T02:20:07Z2015-02-19T02:20:07Z<p>Hi Marc,</p>
<p>I just PMed you links to this book and the barbarians book.</p>
<p>I reckon approximately a quarter of each book — and at least half the time compiling it — is new content that aims to make the material easier to use.</p>
<p>This includes:</p>
<p><ul>
<br />
<li> applying archetypes to the base classes to show how the archetype looks... well, applied to the class. Instead of just the delta, you can see how it looks as a class, in context with the bits that remain.
<br />
<li> applying subdomains to the associated domains, for similar reasons.
<br />
<li> diagrams. So many diagrams showing the relationships between the various elements.
<br />
</ul></p>
<p>Simply compiling the information was perhaps a quarter of my time spent on this. Another third or so has been spent on layout (and I've just spent the last few weeks gutting and rebuilding the layout engine so I can make it better). The remaining time has been spent largely on the diagrams and other bits that hopefully will make the material easier to use.</p>Hi Marc,
I just PMed you links to this book and the barbarians book.
I reckon approximately a quarter of each book -- and at least half the time compiling it -- is new content that aims to make the material easier to use.
This includes:
applying archetypes to the base classes to show how the archetype looks... well, applied to the class. Instead of just the delta, you can see how it looks as a class, in context with the bits that remain.
applying subdomains to the associated domains,...kjdavies2015-02-19T02:20:07ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFkjdavieshttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#102015-02-19T02:05:31Z2015-02-19T02:05:31Z<p>Ah, that's very helpful Liz, thank you.</p>Ah, that's very helpful Liz, thank you.kjdavies2015-02-19T02:05:31ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFkjdavieshttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#92015-02-18T23:56:27Z2015-02-18T23:56:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Marc Radle wrote:</div><blockquote><p> You know, since this book (this series, actually) is made up almost entirely of material created and published by Paizo and other third party companies, it would be nice if the product description <i>at least</i> listed what 3PP are represented, perhaps even giving credit for what elements come from what 3PP.</p>
<p>Not to criticize, but it kind of seems like the least you could do ... </blockquote><p>I don't disagree in principle, Marc, but that can run afoul of "don't use our name in advertising" policies. I have explicit license to advertise compatibility with Pathfinder (the PCL), but many PI declarations include book titles as PI and/or trademarks.
<p>For that matter, the PCL is pretty specific that I can only name certain sources. I could copy the Buccaneer (Privateer? There's a pirate-based archetype) from one of the Pathfinder companions almost word for word and all I have to do is include the Section 15 information (and file off any setting-specific names), but I can't otherwise stamp it with the name of the source.</p>Marc Radle wrote:You know, since this book (this series, actually) is made up almost entirely of material created and published by Paizo and other third party companies, it would be nice if the product description at least listed what 3PP are represented, perhaps even giving credit for what elements come from what 3PP.
Not to criticize, but it kind of seems like the least you could do ...
I don't disagree in principle, Marc, but that can run afoul of "don't use our name in advertising"...kjdavies2015-02-18T23:56:27ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFMarc Radlehttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#82015-02-26T07:12:51Z2015-02-18T20:50:48Z<p>You know, since this book (this series, actually) is made up almost entirely of material created and published by Paizo and other third party companies, it would be nice if the product description <i>at least</i> listed what 3PP are represented, perhaps even giving credit for what elements come from what 3PP.</p>
<p>Not to criticize, but it kind of seems like the least you could do ...</p>You know, since this book (this series, actually) is made up almost entirely of material created and published by Paizo and other third party companies, it would be nice if the product description at least listed what 3PP are represented, perhaps even giving credit for what elements come from what 3PP.
Not to criticize, but it kind of seems like the least you could do ...Marc Radle2015-02-18T20:50:48ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFLiz Courts (Contributor)https://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#72015-02-18T20:27:54Z2015-02-18T20:27:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Purple Duck Games wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Publishers do not get any sort of notification when you pose questions. I will go poke Keith for you.
</p>
</blockquote><p>You can go to a company's page (like <a href="http://paizo.com/companies/purpleDuckGames" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Purple Duck's</a>, for example) and click on the <a href="http://paizo.com/companies/purpleDuckGames/discuss" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Discussion tab</a> to list all the Product Discussion threads for a particular company. There is an RSS feed icon for "Recent Threads" in the upper right corner.Purple Duck Games wrote:Publishers do not get any sort of notification when you pose questions. I will go poke Keith for you.
You can go to a company's page (like Purple Duck's, for example) and click on the Discussion tab to list all the Product Discussion threads for a particular company. There is an RSS feed icon for "Recent Threads" in the upper right corner.Liz Courts (Contributor)2015-02-18T20:27:54ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFkjdavieshttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#62015-02-17T13:51:06Z2015-02-17T13:51:06Z<p>Second, regarding 3pp:</p>
<p>With the exception of adding a very small number of new domains (one of which is entirely to fix an oversight by the original publisher) the <i>Echelon Reference Series</i> does not generally add new game elements. As research documents I did not deem it appropriate at this time, because these books are intended to be a baseline of existing material to be built upon further.</p>
<p>As for 3pp present, I include many, pretty much all related content I can lay my mitts on. I have a rule of no 3pp content less than a year after publication, and none when it would mean basically republishing an existing book (such as Dreamscarred's psionics material, which is still primarily in <i>Ultimate Psionics</i>). Only where I think I am adding one of the three things — concentration, organization, clarification — do I consider it.</p>
<p>I do have other products in mind that will expand on things, and they may ultimately end up folded into these books, but at this point I feel the intended purpose of these books would be clouded by intruding and introducing new content.</p>Second, regarding 3pp:
With the exception of adding a very small number of new domains (one of which is entirely to fix an oversight by the original publisher) the Echelon Reference Series does not generally add new game elements. As research documents I did not deem it appropriate at this time, because these books are intended to be a baseline of existing material to be built upon further.
As for 3pp present, I include many, pretty much all related content I can lay my mitts on. I have a...kjdavies2015-02-17T13:51:06ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFkjdavieshttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#52015-02-17T13:39:49Z2015-02-17T13:39:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Oliver Volland wrote:</div><blockquote> Hm, I had thought my question from above would be easy to answer... </blockquote><p>Hi Oliver,
<p>Thanks for your interest. I'll answer in two parts.</p>
<p>First, regarding "new content":</p>
<p>The short answer is "little new game text here". If you have all the same game references I do, you won't find any new feats or archetypes or the like here. This particular book does have three previously unpublished domains, but they account for less than 1% of the book, really.</p>
<p>The long answer is a little more involved.</p>
<p>The <i>Echelon Reference Series</i> started as a set of research documents for another project. I found while researching various topics that I had to go to too many places (currently, what, half a dozen hard covers of player options? plus four bestiaries, and quite a large number of 3pp PDFs) to try to get all of a topic. This eventually became unmanageable — even something as simple as barbarian rage powers meant a stack of reference material several inches thick.</p>
<p>The relationships between the game elements is often unclear. It can be surprising just how many choices can hang off something (by my count, and including 3pp content, I see 44 feats that ultimately have "Shield Proficiency" as a prerequisite).</p>
<p>This is further complicated by 'design by exception', places where a new game element is created and defined as "just like that, except change this and this". Archetypes and subdomains are two of the bigger examples, but even many spells are defined in terms of each other. There are many game elements where you have to look at multiple pieces (often in different books) in order to get the entire picture.</p>
<p>So, these books have three main goals:</p>
<p><ul>
<br />
<li> Gather related material in a single place and organize it.
<br />
<li> Make clear (using diagrams) the relationships between the game elements
<br />
<li> Ease understanding of the material by applying deltas from 'exception objects' such as subdomains and archetypes to their base objects
<br />
</ul></p>
<p>In a strict sense these books add 'no new game content'. What they do add is organization (all the pieces in one place — in this case more than 15 archetypes, more than 50 domains, almost 90 subdomains, almost 100 related feats, I couldn't tell you offhand how many channeling options), clarification (each archetype is presented in it's original definition, and applied to the base class and presented as a class so you can see it all in one place; each subdomain is applied to its associated domains and each result presented as a new domain — apart from the base domains), and navigation (each class feature, each class subfeature, and each feat is diagrammed to show how it relates to other game elements).</p>Oliver Volland wrote:Hm, I had thought my question from above would be easy to answer...
Hi Oliver, Thanks for your interest. I'll answer in two parts.
First, regarding "new content":
The short answer is "little new game text here". If you have all the same game references I do, you won't find any new feats or archetypes or the like here. This particular book does have three previously unpublished domains, but they account for less than 1% of the book, really.
The long answer is a little...kjdavies2015-02-17T13:39:49ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFPurple Duck Games (alias of Mark Gedak 27)https://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#42015-02-17T13:00:56Z2015-02-17T13:00:56Z<p>Publishers do not get any sort of notification when you pose questions. I will go poke Keith for you.</p>Publishers do not get any sort of notification when you pose questions. I will go poke Keith for you.Purple Duck Games (alias of Mark Gedak 27)2015-02-17T13:00:56ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFOliver Vollandhttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#32015-02-17T12:20:18Z2015-02-17T12:20:18Z<p>Hm, I had thought my question from above would be easy to answer...</p>Hm, I had thought my question from above would be easy to answer...Oliver Volland2015-02-17T12:20:18ZRe: Forums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFOliver Vollandhttps://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#22015-02-07T15:16:43Z2015-02-07T15:16:43Z<p>Is this a collection of material previously printed elsewhere or is this new stuff? Do you expand on 3pp material, and if yes, which companies and which ideas are represented here?</p>Is this a collection of material previously printed elsewhere or is this new stuff? Do you expand on 3pp material, and if yes, which companies and which ideas are represented here?Oliver Volland2015-02-07T15:16:43ZForums: Product Discussion: Echelon Reference Series: Cleric (PFRPG) 3PP & PRD PDFLiz Courts (Contributor)https://paizo.com/products/btpy9b7p/discuss?Echelon-Reference-Series-Cleric-3PP-PRD#12015-02-07T06:22:59Z2015-02-07T06:22:59Z<p>Now available!</p>Now available!Liz Courts (Contributor)2015-02-07T06:22:59Z