I'm looking at the Yoon (level 4) sheet, and am trying to reproduce some of the attack rolls.
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Kinetic Blast +8
I wouldn't expect this number to include her overflow bonus, as that's conditional on burn.
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light crossbow +4 (1d6/19-20)
Maybe shooting with one hand (-2) is assumed?
(Based on the damage, this is a small light crossbow.)
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Can anyone help me out?
Someone pointed this out to me is there any hope for the APG and Magus to get done?
You could be right. Mavaro is using Slashing Grace with Starknives which is also impossible.
I just ran across a post that pointed out that by 7th level he has taken Extra Mental Focus twice even though it can only be taken once.
The APG characters are currently under construction. Once they're all spruced up by our Organized Play team, they'll be added to the package and an email will be sent out alerting people of the update :)
It's been almost a year, the APG characters must be brimming with spruce.
I'm trying to make sense of Yoon's skills.
SKILL MODIFIERS:
Acrobatics +10, Bluff +0 (+1 to fool someone), Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (nature) +5, Linguistics +2, Perception +8, Stealth +12, Use Magic Device +7
SKILL RANKS (24):
Acrobatics 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 1, Knowledge (nature) 1, Linguistics 1, Perception 4, Stealth 2, Use Magic Device 4
Wouldn't this mean she is 3 ranks short?
I'm thinking maybe Intimidate should have four ranks, giving her a +7 modifier before size mods. (Why is it listed at +4?)
Please, please, please can I have a Pregen Alain? I promise I'll behave with him. Honest.
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I would like to see the APG pregens too someday...
Not because I myself would play with them, but I demo Pathfinder regularly (yay for Silverhex and Phantom phenomena) and they are still missing in my Demo box :( I would love to let possible newbies also explore those classes :)
I just wonder what the holdup is? I hope it's nothing to bad.
I just wonder what the holdup is? I hope it's nothing to bad.I would like to see the APG pregens too someday...
Not because I myself would play with them, but I demo Pathfinder regularly (yay for Silverhex and Phantom phenomena) and they are still missing in my Demo box :( I would love to let possible newbies also explore those classes :)
Limited resources that Paizo would rather spend on making new products rather than updating old pregens to be PFS-compliant.
there were level 1 pregens for the APG classes included with "Master of the fallen fortress"
Where are the other iconics? It has been a really long time since I've seen them. Some of the best characters are in these iconics.
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Doc,
I think they're on vacation.
Not to beat a dead horse, but since it is April now, any possibility on an update coming soon for the APG pregens?
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I say beat the dead horse as much as necessary - it is REALLY REALLY REALLY ridiculous that we get the Occult Adventures Iconics out before the APG ones.
It cannot be a case of alignment problems, they could do with Seltyiel as they did with Meligaster and go LN instead of LE.
We're at a year and a half already... seriously disappointing. This is something very stupidly simple that shouldn't take that long to work up and would make a lot of players happy and yet it's been shelved or ignored for no reason.
Bad Form, Paizo, you're better than that.
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Yeah, this is getting sad. The ACG iconics still break the rules yet those stay out. You can't tell me that all of them use 20 pt buy. There are iconic characters with a 5 or 6 Int when 7 is the lowest you can go. And we don't have a playable iconic race with -2 Int. You can't tell me the APG ones are too difficult to add 5 pts to. Raise a 10 to a 14 or something.
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Guys... we have SO MANY pregen characters for people to choose from already. I think Paizo can spend their time on other things, personally. Either way, saying things like "you're better than that" and "this is getting sad" really isn't helping.
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Guys... we have SO MANY pregen characters for people to choose from already. I think Paizo can spend their time on other things, personally. Either way, saying things like "you're better than that" and "this is getting sad" really isn't helping.
Fine, I apologize for saying it's sad.
The problem is that the ones we do have, we really shouldn't. At least not all of them. The APG ones were removed for not conforming to the point buy rules, yet the ACG ones don't either, but those stay. Also, the pyromancer is a small human. You can't even build that. I mean, we have goblin and kobold NPCs you can play if you have the sheets from playing the 5-star games and they only have 15 pt buy. Surely the APG classes, if they can't add 5 extra points, could come back out to be used. So far the only exception to play them is the Fallen Fortress module. Just saying.|
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Oh I mean, I understand that people like those characters and want to play them, but I just think we already have SOOO many characters available as pregen options. It's already overwhelming for new players when they want to sit down at a table and you hand them a binder full of options.
As far as the ACG ones go, I normally don't even offer them to newbies as options... they're too complex for that. So those are the pregens that I choose if I sit down at a pregen-only scenario or if I happen to not have a character in the right level range (doesn't happen often since I have over 30 characters...).
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Oh I mean, I understand that people like those characters and want to play them, but I just think we already have SOOO many characters available as pregen options. It's already overwhelming for new players when they want to sit down at a table and you hand them a binder full of options.
As far as the ACG ones go, I normally don't even offer them to newbies as options... they're too complex for that. So those are the pregens that I choose if I sit down at a pregen-only scenario or if I happen to not have a character in the right level range (doesn't happen often since I have over 30 characters...).
Actually, I've had new players come in and ask to play a witch and an alchemist respectively because they liked the name and wanted to try the class out. The look of defeat on their faces when I told them that they didn't exist was, well, troubling.
I think that some of the above language regarding their absence was harsh, but I do think that a pregen for each class really should exist. Especially because over half of the classes currently in the game have pregens.
We know PFS leadership/design is incredibly busy given the convention season and the madness that goes with it, along with the development of specials and fighting a half-dozen paperwork 'fires' along the way. Credit to them for 'keeping the trains running on time' despite that.
Howver, I'm still wanting to play a cavalier pre-gen so I have an idea of how they advance organically via a 'standard' method of play.
Given how alchemists were played in some of the games I've been I'm interested in them as well.
My -1 was highly informed by my playing of a Slayer at Gen Con in 2014.
What does PFS need to get *real* pregenerated characters ready for APG classes that aren't already in play (not counting MoFF)?
Is there anything we can do to help with this process?
I know someone 'made' some 'pregens' so folks could play them, but that is *not the same* as having an actual pregen, either via campaign rules or from a handling perspective.
Please tell us what is needed aside from more patience, if we can provide that.
Thank you for your time!
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Young Characters, and remember PFS doesn't do the ability scores adjustments for age categories.
APG might also be due to the Summoner. Now, why it stop them from making pregens of the others...
and, Unchained when?
Oh no, I know about the -1 CR template. I can be a young character in a home game, just as I could be an old granny in one too (seriously, that's messed up that Society sends level 1 granny and her dead husband out on missions that Valeros and Kira never survive). The kid is still a small human. That still affects CMB/CMD.
And the APG iconics already exist. I have them. Heck, I still have original portrait style Core before they changed the settings to landscape and upgraded them some. You just can't play the APG ones because their stats are 15 pt instead of 20, making them "illegal". I agree that they could re-release the package without the summoner and adding 5 pts to the stats.
Unchained would be nice, but I doubt we'll ever see those. Likely figure what we already have is good enough.
Also, the pyromancer is a small human. You can't even build that.Young Characters, and remember PFS doesn't do the ability scores adjustments for age categories.
That's actually an interesting note, because as far as I can tell Yoon doesn't even use the Young Characters rules from Ultimate Campaign. (I had a conversation with one of the Paizo staffers about it once last year; can't remember which.)
If you plug her stats into an ability score calculate (like the d20pfsrd's tool), she's a 20 point buy character with Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 10, with her human +2 in Constitution. She doesn't have any modifications to her ability scores due to size or age, which runs contrary to the Young Character rules. (According to Ultimate Campaign, young characters have –2 Str, +2 Dex, –2 Con, –2 Wis.)
Also contrary to the Young Character rules, Yoon is a Small character. For humans, the Young Character rules range from age 8 to age 14 and do not include any modifiers to the character's size category.
As a fun side note, the average dwarf is 4' 1" (3' 9" plus an average of 2 on 2d4) while a halfling's maximum height is 3' 4" (2' 8" plus a maximum of 8 on 2d4). Now, depending on what source and expert you talk to, as well as the age of the data, the average 8-year old kid is somewhere in the ballpark of 44 to about 50 inches tall. That translates to roughly 3' 8" to 4' 2", and part of the uncertainty comes from the fact that kids don't grow at the same pace. Regardless, by some doctors the average 8-year old should be about as tall as the average dwarf, and personally, my experience in the field leaves me to believe that its probably more fair to say that an 8-year old is a Medium character as opposed to a Small character.
But that's really just my (moderately informed) opinion.
That's actually an interesting note, because as far as I can tell Yoon doesn't even use the Young Characters rules from Ultimate Campaign. (I had a conversation with one of the Paizo staffers about it once last year; can't remember which.)
She certainly isn't using the Ultimate Campaign rules, or she couldn't even be a kineticist. Under these rules, a young characters can only take NPC class levels.
I can't get Yoon's point buy to come out to 20. The stats seem to fit best as the 15 point heroic 15/14/13/12/10/8 array with +2 added to the 14 value. Assuming that she put the racial +2 into Con would mean that her initial array was 16/13/13/12/10/8, which adds up to 16 points. If we assume that she added +2 to an initial Cha of 8 (the most inefficient possible way to go about it), we get 16/15/13/12/8/8, which adds up to 18 points.
If we assume that she was built with the Young Character rules, her point buy comes out way too high (among other discrepancies).
I can't get Yoon's point buy to come out to 20. The stats seem to fit best as the 15 point heroic 15/14/13/12/10/8 array with +2 added to the 14 value. Assuming that she put the racial +2 into Con would mean that her initial array was 16/13/13/12/10/8, which adds up to 16 points. If we assume that she added +2 to an initial Cha of 8 (the most inefficient possible way to go about it), we get 16/15/13/12/8/8, which adds up to 18 points.
If we assume that she was built with the Young Character rules, her point buy comes out way too high (among other discrepancies).
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 10, then add +2 to her Constitution for her human ability score bonus. Its a 20 point buy.
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Oh I mean, I understand that people like those characters and want to play them, but I just think we already have SOOO many characters available as pregen options. It's already overwhelming for new players when they want to sit down at a table and you hand them a binder full of options.
As far as the ACG ones go, I normally don't even offer them to newbies as options... they're too complex for that. So those are the pregens that I choose if I sit down at a pregen-only scenario or if I happen to not have a character in the right level range (doesn't happen often since I have over 30 characters...).
Actually, I've had new players come in and ask to play a witch and an alchemist respectively because they liked the name and wanted to try the class out. The look of defeat on their faces when I told them that they didn't exist was, well, troubling.
I think that some of the above language regarding their absence was harsh, but I do think that a pregen for each class really should exist. Especially because over half of the classes currently in the game have pregens.
Ye, I've seen new players requesting them as well
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 10, then add +2 to her Constitution for her human ability score bonus. Its a 20 point buy.I can't get Yoon's point buy to come out to 20. The stats seem to fit best as the 15 point heroic 15/14/13/12/10/8 array with +2 added to the 14 value. Assuming that she put the racial +2 into Con would mean that her initial array was 16/13/13/12/10/8, which adds up to 16 points. If we assume that she added +2 to an initial Cha of 8 (the most inefficient possible way to go about it), we get 16/15/13/12/8/8, which adds up to 18 points.
If we assume that she was built with the Young Character rules, her point buy comes out way too high (among other discrepancies).
Ah -- I thought that the Con 15 was after the racial bonus. Now it does add up.
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Guys... we have SO MANY pregen characters for people to choose from already. I think Paizo can spend their time on other things, personally. Either way, saying things like "you're better than that" and "this is getting sad" really isn't helping.
It's demoralizing and it obviously cannot be a question of time if they had the time to put out the ones for Occult Adventures.
And it is SAD when you have players who are simply denied playing something they want because people just haven't gotten around to it in over a year in a half.
Actually, I've had new players come in and ask to play a witch and an alchemist respectively because they liked the name and wanted to try the class out. The look of defeat on their faces when I told them that they didn't exist was, well, troubling.
I think that some of the above language regarding their absence was harsh, but I do think that a pregen for each class really should exist. Especially because over half of the classes currently in the game have pregens.
Bolded emphasis mine - this is exactly why it's sad.
Maybe harsh is what we need at this point because obviously it's being ignored with polite niceties. It's a valid complaint with no cursing, no forum rules broken and clear frustration.
This wouldn't be nearly as bad if they hadn't posted themselves in this very thread in Nov. 2014 that they were "Working on it". That's like a slap in the face and practically a bold face lie. It obviously didn't take a year and a half to get the Occult Adventures ones out so it shouldn't be taking that long to get the APG ones out.
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It obviously didn't take a year and a half to get the Occult Adventures ones out so it shouldn't be taking that long to get the APG ones out.
This. Especially considering they're already made for all three pregen levels (1, 4, 7). They just need to be tweaked. That's it.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Folks, we're working on the remaining pregenerated characters—not "this is an ongoing project" but "this is a file that's open on one or more computers at this very moment." I agree that it's taken a long time to finish the remaining ones, and I want new players to be able to try out the character class that speaks to them.
However, I'd like to clear up a significant misconception. Building the pregenerated characters, laying them out, adapting the ability descriptions and backstories, and making it all fit cleanly takes a substantial amount of time. When we provide a new set of characters, it's because several departments put in considerable effort on top of their other projects. Our managing to pull that off doesn't mean it would have been easy to have accomplished the same thing for twice as many characters.
Bolded emphasis mine - this is exactly why it's sad.Actually, I've had new players come in and ask to play a witch and an alchemist respectively because they liked the name and wanted to try the class out. The look of defeat on their faces when I told them that they didn't exist was, well, troubling.
I think that some of the above language regarding their absence was harsh, but I do think that a pregen for each class really should exist. Especially because over half of the classes currently in the game have pregens.
Maybe harsh is what we need at this point because obviously it's being ignored with polite niceties. It's a valid complaint with no cursing, no forum rules broken and clear frustration.[/quote[
Being harsh is never what anyone needs. All it does is demoralize the people whom you want services from. Whether that affects said people's willingness to provide said service varies from company to company, from individual to individual. But abrasiveness never makes anything better. Kindness and gentle reminders of interest are how things get done.
This wouldn't be nearly as bad if they hadn't posted themselves in this very thread in Nov. 2014 that they were "Working on it". That's like a slap in the face and practically a bold face lie. It obviously didn't take a year and a half to get the Occult Adventures ones out so it shouldn't be taking that long to get the APG ones out.
As someone who played World of Warcraft during the age where "Slap in the face," was the internet's favorite idiom, I find that language tired and childish, personally. I don't think its fair to talk dates and times without taking equal time to review all of the more important stuff that happened between 2014 and 2015. I wasn't big into PFS during 2014, but 2015 included:
— Mike Brock leaving, and I think its safe to assume that many of his responsibilities fell on people who would normally be making Pregens.
— Tonya joined up, and helping her with the ropes likely took precedence over making Pregens.
— PFS had its absolutely largest number of scenarios-per-year ever, which included a total of three interactive specials and two scenarios that required 6 all-new pregens.
I agree with you that APG, UM, and UI pregens should exist. I don't think your tone is productive or warranted.
However, I'd like to clear up a significant misconception. Building the pregenerated characters, laying them out, adapting the ability descriptions and backstories, and making it all fit cleanly takes a substantial amount of time. When we provide a new set of characters, it's because several departments put in considerable effort on top of their other projects. Our managing to pull that off doesn't mean it would have been easy to have accomplished the same thing for twice as many characters.
Dude, making the pregens for my PaizoCon game was SO crazy-stressful, and they sure as heck didn't look half as nice as any of the PFS ones. I can only imagine the amount of time it takes to get them to that level of polish.
Not hardly. Being harsh is not the same as demonizing, being strict is not the same as demonizing. Parents can be harsh with their children when they do something wrong, or don't do something at all that they were supposed to and it's not demonizing, teachers can be harsh with their students for similar reasons.
When expectations are given and not delivered upon for the length of time on this, and all of the patience in the world have been paid for over a year and a half, then obviously super polite kindness sure isn't working.
Demonizing someone is far worse than this. Expressing severe disappointment with someone on something promised deserves harsh.
Seriously, if this kind of language is "harsh" I fear for people venturing into the other parts of the internet - or even these forums for that matter.
Keep your opinion as you like, I'll keep mine, feel free to call me all the names you like, I can guarantee I've heard worse and more creative. I simply find it completely inexcusable that it's taken so long and that they've been skipped over so long when OA was churned out seemingly post-haste.
Not hardly. Being harsh is not the same as demonizing, being strict is not the same as demonizing. Parents can be harsh with their children when they do something wrong, or don't do something at all that they were supposed to and it's not demonizing, teachers can be harsh with their students for similar reasons.
Are you a parent or teacher to any of Paizo's staff? Because the relationship of customer to business is not anywhere close to that.
Paizo is a business they are not required to follow your time table on releasing free to use content. If Paizo wants to pay their employees to put out content that makes them money and not worry about the content that doesn't then they are free to do that.
You trying to lecture Paizo about how much effort it takes to make pregens is almost comical in how little you seem to understand about the effort it takes to produce stat blocks and get the layout done so that all the relevant abilities can fit on the sheet in a way that is useable and easy to navigate.
The Pregens will be ready when they're ready and I for one would rather see the Gen Con scenarios completed before the thought of pregens even enters the Paizo staffs mind.
The Pregens will be ready when they're ready and I for one would rather see the Gen Con scenarios completed before the thought of pregens even enters the Paizo staffs mind.
The only reason I have APG, Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic are because I needed them initially for a home campaign. That they ended up being useful and helpful for PFS was a welcome side-effect.
I bought the ACG as soon as I could after I had a chance to play one of the classes from it at Gen Con.
The fact that one of the developers has stated that yes, they have this file and it is being worked on is welcome news to hear.
The concern, though, is bureaucratic inertia.
It's not a dig or a slam. With dozens if not scores of products that *need* to be addressed, it's understandable that some things would be given a lower priority -- I'd much rather see the GMs get their scenarios at LEAST two weeks before GenCon.
However, if there is anything that I've learned in nearly the past two years of play in PFS, it is that it is the sum of the work of the members of the community and the developers of the community.
tl;dr: Is there anything we can do to help aside from remaining patient?
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This is going to be a long reply.
Being harsh is never what anyone needs. All it does is demoralize the people whom you want services from. Whether that affects said people's willingness to provide said service varies from company to company, from individual to individual. But abrasiveness never makes anything better. Kindness and gentle reminders of interest are how things get done.
Yeah, tell that to the backers of the Throne of Night Kickstarter who have been patiently waiting for three years, and being nice has gotten them only silence.
However, I'd like to clear up a significant misconception. Building the pregenerated characters, laying them out, adapting the ability descriptions and backstories, and making it all fit cleanly takes a substantial amount of time. When we provide a new set of characters, it's because several departments put in considerable effort on top of their other projects. Our managing to pull that off doesn't mean it would have been easy to have accomplished the same thing for twice as many characters.
No one is doubting that. Yes, it takes a lot of time and resources to do up full backstories, build the characters, etc. That is very understandable. No one in their right mind would ever argue that. However, you have about 85% of all that. Each of the iconics in the APG have "Meet the Iconics" blog posts. Alahazra, Alain, and Damiel all have stat blocks for 1st, 4th, and 7th. They're just 15 pt buy instead of 20. (Did you guys lose the original file? I'm sure we could easily send a copy back. A lot of us still have the pdf in our iCloud accounts.) Freiya and her fox, Daji, only have 1st level stats from "Master of the Fallen Fortress", but also just 15 pt buy. That will probably take some time to do up, give her a proper spell list, etc. As for Balazar, he's just like Freiya for stats and points, but at the same time he's illegal for a second reason--he's APG, and only the Unchained version is allowed in PFS now. Cool, he doesn't need to be brought in any time soon. No one would be too upset over that.
Is Paizo above taking a handout? Because the Pathfinder Community revised the stats to 20 point buy, and a few of them have at least the basic background from the Iconic blog post cut down to try fit.Our "significant misconception" really isn't so much what you've said, but what we're not understanding. And that is, a lot of the work is already done and made available, even if by other people. So, is it that you're trying to optimize the characters due to people being unhappy with the builds? I know Hakon could use 10 Wisdom instead of having two odd numbered stats (Dex 15, Con 13). But that said, people question why the APG characters didn't get the spit shine when the Core characters did when everything became landscape instead of portrait, and we got the ACG characters. In our eyes, that should have been part of the "working on" back in 2014 that everyone was told about.
Are you a parent or teacher to any of Paizo's staff? Because the relationship of customer to business is not anywhere close to that.
Paizo is a business they are not required to follow your time table on releasing free to use content. If Paizo wants to pay their employees to put out content that makes them money and not worry about the content that doesn't then they are free to do that.
You trying to lecture Paizo about how much effort it takes to make pregens is almost comical in how little you seem to understand about the effort it takes to produce stat blocks and get the layout done so that all the relevant abilities can fit on the sheet in a way that is useable and easy to navigate.
The Pregens will be ready when they're ready and I for one would rather see the Gen Con scenarios completed before the thought of pregens even enters the Paizo staffs mind.
Come on, now. You don't need to be like that. The pregens were done and released in pdf form back in 2010, as I stated above in my response to John. The backgrounds in 2011 on the blog. They just aren't legal with today's rules because of the point buy being 15. The Pathfinder Community already updated them to 20, but again, they're not legal for play because they don't have the official stamp on them.
What people are trying to understand, and are asking of Paizo is, why is it taking so long when in Jan 2011 everything was already 3/4 done (just from their own work alone, not including the Community stepping in, in 2014)? That's it. They said back in 2014 they were getting worked on. Okay, so finished in 2010 to release for "Masters of the Fallen Fortress", and then 3/4 complete in 2011 due to the point buy stipulations, and getting worked on in 2014. Then the Core characters get the complete revision to make them more optimized to be put alongside the ACG iconics in landscape format, and then we got the Occult. Cool. Why weren't the APG? I get Balazar because he's unchained. No problem. The others should have come out when the Core ones were given the spit shine polish.Also, let's talk about money because you brought that up as well. What makes a company money? For starters, people buying their products. If a customer doesn't feel that a company has their best interests at heart or won't meet their needs, they go elsewhere. That's the joy of this new generation who know what they want, know it should be available to them, and want it right now. Not only that, who has what they want. And there's a lot of other games out there to purchase and play, and give them what they want. I know, I play or run a large portion of them, and have a friend who runs a board game cafe. He gets all kinds.
This can be especially disheartening to a brand new player that's looking to get interested in the game. As others have said, people ask for what's not available all the time. At least with the witch I can still offer up the arcanist and sorcerer as a substitute, but it's usually met with mixed results.
Now then, if everyone's done pulling each other's hair and hissing, let's try to be a little more civil. Any more of this and we might start seeing posts get removed. Not that I'd blame the mods.
That said, as Wei Ji the Learner asked, what can we do to help?
tl;dr: Is there anything we can do to help aside from remaining patient?
I have a feeling that Paizo doesn't want volunteer help on the pregens because they'd still need to be developed, edited, and then given a layout. I imagine layout is the hardest part since they need to make sure everything relevant is on the sheet for the players while also keeping as much of the character backstory as possible.
So patience and understanding are probably the best we can offer.
One thing I've noticed over the years is that whenever I see Paizo employees on social media post about working on a holiday, or working late they always mention that either the PFS team or John Compton was working, and they generally follow up when they leave by saying that John is still there at work.
I mention that because John and Linda are extremely hard working and knowledgeable. They are going to do the best that they can do to get out the scenarios, AP sanctioning, custom boons for events, campaign clarifications, and handling FAQ and Errata issues that arise in PFS. Why pregens are important to them as evidenced by John still working on them they have so many logs in the fire and are already working so hard that they can't achieve everything even when though they try.
Come on, now. You don't need to be like that. The pregens were done and released in pdf form back in 2010, as I stated above in my response to John. The backgrounds in 2011 on the blog. They just aren't legal with today's rules because of the point buy being 15. The Pathfinder Community already updated them to 20, but again, they're not legal for play because they don't have the official stamp on them.
What people are trying to understand, and are asking of Paizo is, why is it taking so long when in Jan 2011 everything was already 3/4 done (just from their own work alone, not including the Community stepping in, in 2014)? That's it. They said back in 2014 they were getting worked on. Okay, so finished in 2010 to release for "Masters of the Fallen Fortress", and then 3/4 complete in 2011 due to the point buy stipulations, and getting worked on in 2014. Then the Core characters get the complete revision to make them more optimized to be put alongside the ACG iconics in landscape format, and then we got the Occult. Cool. Why weren't the APG? I get Balazar because he's unchained. No problem. The others should have come out when the Core ones were given the spit shine polish.
Sorry I'm chopping the post up to make it easier to address your points.
First off the Pathfinder Community pregens are 1, 7, 12 levels.
Secondly John and Linda weren't on the staff in 2010 and I imagine the pregens from then aren't what they want for PFS.
Third I believe you are seriously underestimating the amount of work that goes into making pregens. Like I said above layout is not something a player base can help with and it's probably the most important and hardest part of the pregens. It's also the part that probably requires people from outside the PFS team to do, the people who are working on layouts for the Paizo books as well.
And lastly I did need to be like that, because treating the Paizo employees like children is deplorable and everyone who loves this game should be upset when people vilify the hard working people who help make this game continue.
Also, let's talk about money because you brought that up as well. What makes a company money? For starters, people buying their products. If a customer doesn't feel that a company has their best interests at heart or won't meet their needs, they go elsewhere. That's the joy of this new generation who know what they want, know it should be available to them, and want it right now. Not only that, who has what they want.
The joy of this new generation you're talking about is a ridiculous level of entitlement that shouldn't be glorified. Trying to tell me that Paizo should be forced to provide free content to make people happy is absurd. That'd be like me standing in front of a McDonalds and demanding samples of a Big Mac before I'll continue to by their food.
That level of entitlement will not lead to good game play when their character dies, or misses a prestige point, and isn't healthy for the campaign as a whole and shouldn't be catered to.
And really good luck with the other organized play campaigns out there, because right now none of them put out as much content as PFS or are anywhere near as polished.
This can be especially disheartening to a brand new player that's looking to get interested in the game. As others have said, people ask for what's not available all the time. At least with the witch I can still offer up the arcanist and sorcerer as a substitute, but it's usually met with mixed results.
Offer the shaman up instead for Witch, it's the closest you'll get.
But I've GMed over 200 games and organized probably 2-3 times that and I can honestly tell you out of that 1500 hundred or so seats I haven't had a single issue with the available pregens. In fact I have far more complaints from new players about the amount of pregens to look through then about any that are missing.
Also here is a little trick for 1st level pregen play, if a player really wants to try out a witch then make a witch for them. It's first level play and whether or not you use a pregen or a custom made character you still have three sessions to play with the character before you need to be locked in. I personally don't do that because I haven't seen the need, but it's an option.
Again sorry for cutting your post up into pieces, I hate doing it but my opinions would be rather chaotic looking otherwise.
One thing I've noticed over the years is that whenever I see Paizo employees on social media post about working on a holiday, or working late they always mention that either the PFS team or John Compton was working, and they generally follow up when they leave by saying that John is still there at work.I mention that because John and Linda are extremely hard working and knowledgeable. They are going to do the best that they can do to get out the scenarios, AP sanctioning, custom boons for events, campaign clarifications, and handling FAQ and Errata issues that arise in PFS. Why pregens are important to them as evidenced by John still working on them they have so many logs in the fire and are already working so hard that they can't achieve everything even when though they try.
I was heavily involved in a 'living' campaign as a volunteer at one point. The amount of work involved, quite frankly, was intense. And that campaign swapped out far inferior versions of pregens *on a yearly basis*. Inferior in terms of appearance, but mechanically sound with space for players to customize their new characters.
As a result, I'm at least well aware of what goes into the process. One loses track of how much 'free time' gets eaten up with things that 'would be kind of nice to have' on the side versus 'serious needs'.
However, despite all of that, if someone offered to help and was reliable, I would take that help in a heartbeat because it made life easier for everyone. Even if all we got was 'rough copy' it gave us ground to work from, that we could then 'tweak' to bring in-line with campaign rules.
First off the Pathfinder Community pregens are 1, 7, 12 levels.
They are actually 1, 4, and 7. There are no L12 pregens in Society play.
Also here is a little trick for 1st level pregen play, if a player really wants to try out a witch then make a witch for them. It's first level play and whether or not you use a pregen or a custom made character you still have three sessions to play with the character before you need to be locked in. I personally don't do that because I haven't seen the need, but it's an option.
This option is not available to a GM/coordinator that's already running around trying to get a scenario prepped/launched, players seated, and may be trying to make the *best* first impression on new players to the campaign.
It also doesn't address the ability to play one of these characters at a higher level to fill out a table.
I have seen tables at conventions painfully short on the 'higher tiers' while there's overflow on the lower tables, and the reason there are less people at the higher tables is due *specifically* to 'I don't have a character that can play that'.
The joy of this new generation you're talking about is a ridiculous level of entitlement that shouldn't be glorified. Trying to tell me that Paizo should be forced to provide free content to make people happy is absurd. That'd be like me standing in front of a McDonalds and demanding samples of a Big Mac before I'll continue to by their food.That level of entitlement will not lead to good game play when their character dies, or misses a prestige point, and isn't healthy for the campaign as a whole and shouldn't be catered to.
What you're talking about is not pertinent to the situation.
The more appropriate analogy would be someone who cannot be hired at McDonalds for whatever reason offering to help cook, or stand outside and usher folks in and out, or clean tables, or *something* to help while the food is prepared, because they want to *actively help* rather than being a passive consumer blob forking over paper or electronic wealth for food.
Understandably, for legal reasons this isn't allowed, but no one's going to raise a complaint if one cleans their table after themselves and picks up their trash...
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Sorry I'm chopping the post up to make it easier to address your points.
First off the Pathfinder Community pregens are 1, 7, 12 levels.
Secondly John and Linda weren't on the staff in 2010 and I imagine the pregens from then aren't what they want for PFS.
That's fine. I do it from time to time too.
The Pathfinder Community ones are, yes, but the Paizo released ones are 1, 4, and 7. Again, released back in 2010. They may not be what John and Linda wanted for PFS, but the Core ones didn't change much. I mean, Lem still doesn't have cure light wounds as a bard.
But I've GMed over 200 games and organized probably 2-3 times that and I can honestly tell you out of that 1500 hundred or so seats I haven't had a single issue with the available pregens. In fact I have far more complaints from new players about the amount of pregens to look through then about any that are missing.
Also here is a little trick for 1st level pregen play, if a player really wants to try out a witch then make a witch for them. It's first level play and whether or not you use a pregen or a custom made character you still have three sessions to play with the character before you need to be locked in. I personally don't do that because I haven't seen the need, but it's an option.
That makes you rather lucky. I've only ran 50 games in the couple of years since we started our own PFS branch up here, but I think between the seven of us GMs, we've had between 3-10 requests each for pregens we didn't have access to. Namely for the cavalier. Most of the time it was at a game when we had brand new players who'd never played Pathfinder before, but knew what they liked from their D&D Encounters days.
As for the witch trick, Wei Ji is correct. Legally you can't make your own witch build as a pregen. If you have time, and you have the book on hand, technically with no one around you could sit down with them. However, also technically they're supposed to have access to the book themself in order for them to build and play it. Core is the only set of classes they can legally borrow a book for, and that no one can come after them for.
First off the Pathfinder Community pregens are 1, 7, 12 levels.They are actually 1, 4, and 7. There are no L12 pregens in Society play.
He's referring to the link I posted. The Community cleaned up the stat buy problem, but built their own level 12 version of most of the classes. But, yes, you are correct that the Paizo released ones are 1, 4, and 7.
Yes I was referring to the ones on that Kevin linked and not the Paizo ones. Though for completeness Paizo also released level 1 and 7 pregens in NPC Codex that are legal for PFS [Another version of the core ones].
As for the witch trick, it technically works because you aren't required to play a character you built, another player can build a character for you. The player wouldn't get the benefit of the pregen death rules, or the ability to play the character after 1st level without locking the character in. I don't generally recommend it, but I've known people who refuse to play pregens and don't like building their own characters.
Also I was just thinking [a first] and another reason Paizo might not want to get volunteer help here is because they might not like the idea of having people freelance for them and not get paid for the work and in the end would just be more comfortable having their own employees do the work.
Folks, we're working on the remaining pregenerated characters—not "this is an ongoing project" but "this is a file that's open on one or more computers at this very moment." I agree that it's taken a long time to finish the remaining ones, and I want new players to be able to try out the character class that speaks to them.
However, I'd like to clear up a significant misconception. Building the pregenerated characters, laying them out, adapting the ability descriptions and backstories, and making it all fit cleanly takes a substantial amount of time. When we provide a new set of characters, it's because several departments put in considerable effort on top of their other projects. Our managing to pull that off doesn't mean it would have been easy to have accomplished the same thing for twice as many characters.
Hi John,
I understand it can be a time consuming process. At the very least, it is good to hear something, as opposed to nonstop radio silence. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
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Apparently Gen Con will have the old iconics re-released as well as new iconics. Happy about that.