Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Technology Guide (PFRPG)

Yeah, sorry, shoulda said sandwich.

Imagine you build up a fantasy character—a wizard, let's say—who's all about researching the ruins of ancient civilizations to discover lost knowledge that no one else in the world knows. Researching arcane lore, and all that. You take that character to your GM and she thinks he will fit in the campaign, so you play the wizard for a while.

In one dungeon, you find a strange relic from the past that your PC has never heard of before. It's a brand new discovery—exactly what he wants to do. This weird item can clearly be held by a humanoid hand, but doesn't look like any weapon you've ever seen before. It doesn't radiate magic, so it's likely just some piece of ancient junk. Until you accidentally put pressure on one part of the item, and it shoots what looks to you, a wizard with maximum ranks in Spellcraft, like a scorching ray. If you could unlock this ages-old enigma, you'd be known the world over for your intellect. Heck, the device might even get named after you!

That's the end of the night, as the GM needs to work early tomorrow and the woman playing the fighter needs to make the last train home. You thank the GM for an incredible adventure, noting that you're so used to knowing every page of every rulebook that nothing seems to surprise you anymore, but that tonight you got to experience the wonder of discovery along with your character. Your GM just smiles and says knowingly, "just wait until you see what that strangely etched coin you found does."

If this book were called "Treasures of Numeria" and we hadn't told you that Numeria was home to a crashed spaceship and had laser guns and robots in it; if this product description didn't pull back the curtain and say, outright, that these are technological items one would expect to find in a science fiction setting; if a sword made of light and an invisible field of force were describes as magic instead, would there still be the same negative reactions to it?

Food for thought...

Yes, but fluff and description matter when playing a game of imagination. Describing an item as something that shoots forth a magical bolt of flame vs that emits a laser beam vs a ranged touch attack that does 4d6 fire damage mechanically may be the same but it does matter. In a game meant to be played partially in your imagination, how it's described is crucial. For some people the description that juxtaposes different genre's breaks their immersion. In this supplement you are not talking about strange magical treasures from another world you are talking about technological devices.

Now I know some people love that stuff, and importantly the creative minds at Paizo want to produce it so fine. Bring it on. I am very unlikely to use it but others will and that's fine. I hope you get it out of your system and start producing stuff that is more my speed again.

The AP's started off as being fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery stories but it seems like for some time this has been the exception rather than the norm.

Can I request that the AP following the Iron Gods one just be a standard old fashioned no guns, no lasers, no anachronisms adventure.

The AP's started off as being fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery stories but it seems like for some time this has been the exception rather than the norm.

Even if you just limit yourself to the ones published for the Pathfinder RPG specifically, you can get the "fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery" experience in Rise of the Runelords, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull, Carrion Crown, and Shattered Star. If you're willing to toss in urban-based adventures, you can add Council of Thieves (and Curse of the Crimson Throne, if you're willing to include the 3.5 ones). And that's not even talking about things like Emerald Spire, when that finally comes around.

Altogether, about half of the adventure paths that have been published since Paizo went solo fall into the broad category of "fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery story." Yes, to a certain extent, this has been slanted somewhat away from that experience in the last few years - but that's because it's already been done. Several times. Paizo needs to keep breaking new ground so it doesn't stagnate. I suspect you will get your wish for the next AP after Iron Gods, and that's cool too! I love that kind of stuff! But I strongly suggest you prepare yourself for the reality that Paizo, and to all appearances the large majority of Paizo's fanbase, are looking to keep pushing those boundaries going forward.

The tastes of gamers have changed over time: they are not stagnate. This is good. It means more innovation. More tools for interesting stories. More potential stories. I had a game a shadowrun the other month that we couldn't tell in Pathfinder. It relies on just too many "tools" that aren't in Pathfinder. I suspect they're going to be in this book, but even then, if you aren't playing in Numeria, you wouldn't be able to tell the stories anyhow, without making rules up.

I myself have 0 interest in Asian themed content. It doesn't hold any interest to me. But I'm glad it's in the game, so that the people who want to have an entire continent of oriental themed nations are given the tools they desire.

And this is just a nation, not a continent.

BTW Mark and James, something like RFID tags and the ability to activate items when they come in proximity of those tags would be really nice.

Werecorpse wrote:

The AP's started off as being fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery stories but it seems like for some time this has been the exception rather than the norm.

Even if you just limit yourself to the ones published for the Pathfinder RPG specifically, you can get the "fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery" experience in Rise of the Runelords, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull, Carrion Crown, and Shattered Star. If you're willing to toss in urban-based adventures, you can add Council of Thieves (and Curse of the Crimson Throne, if you're willing to include the 3.5 ones). And that's not even talking about things like Emerald Spire, when that finally comes around.

Altogether, about half of the adventure paths that have been published since Paizo went solo fall into the broad category of "fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery story." Yes, to a certain extent, this has been slanted somewhat away from that experience in the last few years - but that's because it's already been done. Several times. Paizo needs to keep breaking new ground so it doesn't stagnate. I suspect you will get your wish for the next AP after Iron Gods, and that's cool too! I love that kind of stuff! But I strongly suggest you prepare yourself for the reality that Paizo, and to all appearances the large majority of Paizo's fanbase, are looking to keep pushing those boundaries going forward.

Exactly. There are all sorts of ways to look at fantasy and all sorts of tools people are interested in seeing. The APs give Paizo a chance to put them out on the stage in a big way.

The standard exploration and discovery stories are out there in many of the APs and modules both from Paizo, 3PP, and older materials that fans are converting to Pathfinder. They get a lot of love already, and I imagine that many GMs (and players) could write their own with little problem. But the newer ideas don't get that sort of support yet, be they new races, technology, ideas like Mythic and so on. So every other AP isn't too much I don't think.

Why, Paizo. Why.

My wallet.

You fiends.

Oh, also, I agree with the three posters above me (Shisumi, Cheapy, and knightday).

Hey, that's not terribly unusual 'round here. (At least with the latter two; I haven't interacted with Shisumi that much, be he seems cool so far! :D)

Why, Paizo. Why.

My wallet.

You fiends.

Are you afraid? What is it you fear?

Scary noises while I'm in dark corridors, low on ammo, and with a busted psi amp.

Yes, but fluff and description matter when playing a game of imagination. Describing an item as something that shoots forth a magical bolt of flame vs that emits a laser beam vs a ranged touch attack that does 4d6 fire damage mechanically may be the same but it does matter. In a game meant to be played partially in your imagination, how it's described is crucial. For some people the description that juxtaposes different genre's breaks their immersion. In this supplement you are not talking about strange magical treasures from another world you are talking about technological devices.

Which is why my example included a GM obscuring what the item was for the players' benefit. This is a GM-oriented book in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, so we'd be remiss in our job if the book didn't give the GM all the information. It will call the laser guns laser guns so that GMs including them in their campaigns know what they are and can use them (by whatever name or description they choose) as they see fit. Again, the point of my post was to illustrate that how we describe technology to the GM isn't necessarily how the GM will describe it to her players.

Scary noises while I'm in dark corridors, low on ammo, and with a busted psi amp.

Well, if it's supernaturally dark, you may have nothing to fear if the enemy is using lasers.

>:)

Cheapy wrote:

Scary noises while I'm in dark corridors, low on ammo, and with a busted psi amp.

Well, if it's supernaturally dark, you may have nothing to fear if the enemy is using lasers.

>:)

Nothing to fear but fear itself and escaped cryokinetic lab monkeys and cyborg midwives with their faces missing. D:

Are you afraid? What is it you fear?

Being entirely broke, mostly. Cheapy's and Mikaze's are good too, though.

Though, honestly speaking, I'm kind of jumpy.

These boards are awesome. H-h-hack-er.

I recognise that there is a proportion of standard fantasy in the AP line especially early ( I think I said that) and I hope I didn't come across as strident criticism of the non standard. It's not of use to me, but so be it. I just want to express my opinion that standard fantasy is my preference. I don't believe you need to put pistols or lasers into fantasy to make it a fresh and interesting story. For me that is a true rarity, a 1 in 100 adventure, not a 1 in 2 or 3

Altogether, about half of the adventure paths that have been published since Paizo went solo fall into the broad category of "fairly standard fantasy exploration discovery story." Yes, to a certain extent, this has been slanted somewhat away from that experience in the last few years - but that's because it's already been done. Several times. Paizo needs to keep breaking new ground so it doesn't stagnate.

I truly hope that Paizo doesn't believe that it has already done the standard fantasy exploration ideas several times over so now they need to put guns, robots or ray beams into the fantasy so they don't stagnate.

Pushing boundaries is fine but witch war, wrath of righteous, now mummy's mask ( which I had thought was the 'normal' one after a couple of odd ones and before Iron Gods - but that looks wrong) then Iron gods all seem to fit this ott or hi tech twist category. It's no longer a fresh twist if it happens every time. I guess I am just one of the people who isn't yet bored with normal swords and spells adventure fantasy.

I am looking forward to the post Iron Gods AP ( fingers crossed) and will give Emerald spire a look too.

Where are we getting the idea that Mummy's Mask is not going to be a "normal" one.

Where are we getting the idea that Mummy's Mask is not going to be a "normal" one.

I'm in this boat too.

I mean, the stuff mentioned about Mummy's Mask seems pretty firmly in line with stuff like

And those honestly fit into the spectrum of "standard" fantasy for me.

(has also been playing Final Fantasy IV on DS lately, so...)

The nice thing about "traditional" fantasy is that there are 40 years of material for it. For more adventurous stuff like Paizo has been doing?

Not quite such a long pedigree there.

graywulfe wrote:

Where are we getting the idea that Mummy's Mask is not going to be a "normal" one.

I'm in this boat too.

I mean, the stuff mentioned about Mummy's Mask seems pretty firmly in line with stuff like ** spoiler omitted **

And those honestly fit into the spectrum of "standard" fantasy for me.

(has also been playing Final Fantasy IV on DS lately, so...)

Perhaps I am wrong about the Mummy's Mask.

I wonder what the qualifications are for prestige'ing into Technomancer. If it grants progression in spellcasting, my next BBEG is going to be a CyberLich: Lich Wizard 5, Technomancer 10.

Mikaze wrote:

graywulfe wrote:

Where are we getting the idea that Mummy's Mask is not going to be a "normal" one.

I'm in this boat too.

I mean, the stuff mentioned about Mummy's Mask seems pretty firmly in line with stuff like ** spoiler omitted **

And those honestly fit into the spectrum of "standard" fantasy for me.

(has also been playing Final Fantasy IV on DS lately, so...)

Perhaps I am wrong about the Mummy's Mask.

Very Important Question!!!

Can a lich make a digital phylactery and download it into cyberspace?

Very Important Question!!!

Can a lich make a digital phylactery and download it into cyberspace?

:::smirk:::

Control-Alt-Delete!

I think we all need to ask the important question here: Can we play a cyberzombie ridden by the soul of a dead dragon?

Interesting. Not something I'll use in my regular campaign but I'll enjoy reading it anyway. And when I resume my Tekumel / EPT game the technology stuff may come in handy. Very handy :)

I truly hope that Paizo doesn't believe that it has already done the standard fantasy exploration ideas several times over so now they need to put guns, robots or ray beams into the fantasy so they don't stagnate.

Nope. Not at all. One AP and 1 Campaign Setting out of a year does not make us into a Science Fiction Game Company. I hope!

Paladinosaur wrote:

James,

will the technology guide have some sort of laser sword so I can roll a Paladin Jedi for Iron Gods?

Nope.

Fortunately, there are plenty of d20 compatible Star Wars games to choose from for that.

Or you can just make it a brilliant energy weapon.

Just in case anyone missed it from his Ask thread, there will be no laser swords in the technology guide.

I feel like someone just kicked my puppy. COSMO!!

Can a lich make a digital phylactery and download it into cyberspace?

All signs point to yes.

John Kretzer wrote:

Billzabub wrote:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

- Arthur C. Clarke

That problem with that statement is that it is assuming magic does not exist at all(I am pretty sure ACC stuck to sci-fi). And if in Golarion magic is just science I am going to probably either ignore it or just go find another world to play in.

It is just annoys me that this statement often used to fool masters of magic in worlds with them both...it kinds like telling a car mechanic that your hi-tech bike is really a car.

Thank you.

I admit this book fills me with mixed squirmy bits of slithering confusion in regards to feelings. I have have had science and magic mix well in stories before. My very first weird character's BBEG was a red dragon cursed to human form who used the crashed remains of a spaceship to regain her form and boost her power to seek revenge on the son of her enemy aka my character.

However a club upside the head is still a club upside the head even if the club is plastic that looks like wood but not actually wood. I've had that mentality and that quote in particular used to belittle or down play things i've played or worked on its become a bit of baggage for me.

All in all however I have to say I am curious to see the the finished product and how it turns out.

Also, there are times when I would sell Mikaze's soul for Clarke to never have said that.

I see we have very similair experiences regarding that quote.

Lets put it this way earlier Mark Moreland posted a desciption of a wizard finding and being intrigued by a 'laser rifle'. At some point that wizard should be able to discern that it is not magical in anyway what so ever.

I am looking forward to this book and the AP...though I will be a little less so if it relies heavily on the Clarke quote for the plot.

James Jacobs wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

James,

will the technology guide have some sort of laser sword so I can roll a Paladin Jedi for Iron Gods?

Nope.

Fortunately, there are plenty of d20 compatible Star Wars games to choose from for that.

Or you can just make it a brilliant energy weapon.

Just in case anyone missed it from his Ask thread, there will be no laser swords in the technology guide.

I feel like someone just kicked my puppy. COSMO!!

But a lightsaber isn't a laser sword. It's plasma held in a cohesive blade shape by electromagnets. In either case I am disappointed. I guess we could just re-spec any of the bladed weapons to do fire/electric damage, I'm partial to the rapier for that one.

Mark Moreland wrote:

Words and stuff...

Yes, but fluff and...

The problem with your "descriptions" of the various adventure paths in your spoilers is that they are gross oversimplifications of those adventure paths. People tend to take the most outrageous part of an adventure path, stretch it out, and blow it up until it apparently becomes the entire AP. While Carrion Crown is of course intended to be "1890-1920s horror/scary folklore" (Which, as it might shock you, has a very prominent place in swords and sorcery), Jade Regent is not just "ninja quest", Reign of Winter is not just "dimension-hopping to Earth", and so on. Many of those adventures start out with simple swords and sorcery. If you don't like any of the above things, you're free to homebrew your own adventure, or wait until Paizo does another AP to suit your (vanilla) tastes.

Tels wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

James,

will the technology guide have some sort of laser sword so I can roll a Paladin Jedi for Iron Gods?

Nope.

Fortunately, there are plenty of d20 compatible Star Wars games to choose from for that.

Or you can just make it a brilliant energy weapon.

Just in case anyone missed it from his Ask thread, there will be no laser swords in the technology guide.

I feel like someone just kicked my puppy. COSMO!!

But a lightsaber isn't a laser sword. It's plasma held in a cohesive blade shape by electromagnets. In either case I am disappointed. I guess we could just re-spec any of the bladed weapons to do fire/electric damage, I'm partial to the rapier for that one.

Don't worry, JJ has also said there are going to be stats for the technic league captain's green glowing bubble sword, it's just that it's totally not a lightsaber. Like, at all. I think it's going to be called Bastard Sword of Non Copyright Infringement.

Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:

Tels wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

James,

will the technology guide have some sort of laser sword so I can roll a Paladin Jedi for Iron Gods?

Nope.

Fortunately, there are plenty of d20 compatible Star Wars games to choose from for that.

Or you can just make it a brilliant energy weapon.

Just in case anyone missed it from his Ask thread, there will be no laser swords in the technology guide.

I feel like someone just kicked my puppy. COSMO!!

But a lightsaber isn't a laser sword. It's plasma held in a cohesive blade shape by electromagnets. In either case I am disappointed. I guess we could just re-spec any of the bladed weapons to do fire/electric damage, I'm partial to the rapier for that one.

Don't worry, JJ has also said there are going to be stats for the technic league captain's green glowing bubble sword, it's just that it's totally not a lightsaber. Like, at all. I think it's going to be called Bastard Sword of Non Copyright Infringement.

Good to hear, if not I was just going to jury rig it.

I don't know what the final form of that technic sword will look like, but I can tell you that I was not thinking "lightsaber, only copyright safe" when I wrote game stats for it. I was thinking "what sort of sword would someone who had mastered both technology and magic want".

Indeed, that was a joke. At no point did I seriously intend for anyone to think there was any level on which the concept of Bastard Sword of Non-Copyright Infringement was an actual part of the design process.

Sad TOZ wrote:

Liz Courts wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

Y'know, besides the obvious Iron Gods/OMG SPACE expectations, there may be quite a bit here for Final Fantasy/magitek fans too, eh?

Already on it, my good man. My "Magitek Factory" adventure from a PaizoCon of past is going to get some dusting off.

I thought we had something special!

You know you wanna play it again...Once more, with feeling!

I missed this the first time through.

Oh, the memories... the awesome, awesome memories.

... dang it, now I'm going to have to buy something else.

(Stupid awesome rock-opera reinterpretation. Giving me shivers and tears and stuff.)

((Also, her post, for those who missed it 'cause... that's an awesome find! HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL THE COOL THINGS, LIZ?))

(((I am fully indebted to DragoDorn for pointing out both this thread and that link.)))

I LOVE THESE BOARDS

HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL THE COOL THINGS, LIZ?

Stacking bonuses from multiclassing.

Indeed, that was a joke. At no point did I seriously intend for anyone to think there was any level on which the concept of Bastard Sword of Non-Copyright Infringement was an actual part of the design process.

Well I didn't figure it would be that either, I just like cool swords.

So with the decision to not include an energy sword in the Technology Guide (because it doesn't fit the flavor of force fields, lasers and plasma cannons), I've opted out of buying this product or Iron Gods.

I feel it's nothing short of a stupid decision and Paizo is going to receive a lot of flak over it.

How you don't have an energy sword in a book about super advanced technology in your sword and sorcery game completely boggles my mind. Might as well play a Wizard who doesn't use magic "because it doesn't fit his flavor".

Yes, that last line was entirely sarcastic.

So with the decision to not include an energy sword in the Technology Guide (because it doesn't fit the flavor of force fields, lasers and plasma cannons), I've opted out of buying this product or Iron Gods.

I feel it's nothing short of a stupid decision and Paizo is going to receive a lot of flak over it.

How you don't have an energy sword in a book about super advanced technology in your sword and sorcery game completely boggles my mind. Might as well play a Wizard who doesn't use magic "because it doesn't fit his flavor".

Yes, that last line was entirely sarcastic.

Hey it could be in one of the AP books...they might not want to reprint here because of all the complaints people make about paying for stuff twice.

James Jacobs said there won't be any sort of 'energy sword' because it doesn't fit the flavor of Numeria. Here is James Jacobs post on it.

While a 'lightsabre' is indeed iconicly Star Wars, there have been many sources, even before Star Wars (as far back as 1952) that had the concept of some sort of energy blade. Hell, Mass Effect had an 'Omni-blade' and I doubt anyone is going to accuse those as being 'lightsabres'.

Citing something as being iconic of another franchise as a reason for not including it is a really, really dumb reason for not including something. Especially since so much of this game is inspired by other sources.

From thundering warhammers, to magical enlarged bags, to ancient civilizations of advance people that disappeared beneath the waves to eldritch horrors from beyond space and time. With so much of the game being inspired by other sources, or even being iconic items/abilities/powers of other sources, how does citing something as being iconic of another place become a reason to not include something?

I mean, unless Numeria has a Monk-like order of guardians all wielding Energy Blades and using Telekinesis to move things about and occasionally dropping burning hands that deals shock damage instead while some giant floating spaceship with a giant laser threatens the universe lead by a crippled old man with a half-robot black knight with a breathing problem, then I seriously doubt everyone is going to call Numeria 'Star Wars' simply because they have an energy blade.

You want a kleneex for that nosebleed?

I retract my earlier statement, now I think it's going to be called Bastard Sword of Not Getting Your Panties in a Twist. Seriously dude, they've got a techno-magic sword slated for publication, and I doubt the item description will say "...this looks nothing like an energy sword, just to bother Tels..."

More to the point... the book is already written and is just now finishing development. Now is not the time to add more to the book anyway, even if we WANTED to add an "energy sword."

I'm sorry you'll miss the lack of energy swords in Numeria, Tels... but we can't put every single sci-fi element into the AP. It needs to be focused on the ones we want to include in order to tell the story. And this particularly story doesn't have energy swords. It doesn't have giant mechs in it either, or spaceship chases, or time travel, or lots of other science fiction tropes. There's not room for all of those in one AP.

Note that nowhere did I say we'll NEVER do an energy sword. It's not gonna be in the Tech Guide though, and it's unlikely that one will show up in Iron Gods, although now that I know folks are super-passionite about them... I might consider changing that stance... yet at the same time, I don't want folks to think they can play Jedi or that they'll be fighting Jedi in the AP. For a LOT of reasons.

Also: Let's try not to get too worked up or angry or insulting about the topic. On both sides.

And it's probably a good idea to move the topic to its own thread anyway.

What, brilliant energy weapon enhancements don't count?

brilliant energy weapons can't harm objects, undead, and constructs, so no they are a poor substitute for a lightsaber.

...derp. Looks like I replied to the wrong post earlier. Sorry James. A hazard of having 20 tabs open for the forum here. >_<;

As for a Jedi/Sith with a lightsaber... the closest equivalent I've come up with is a bladebound Kensai Magus, with the weapon finesse and Dervish dance feats, along with Telekinesis as a prepared spell.

Anyway... From what I've heard, the amount of cybernetics a character can recieve are supposed to be based off a combination of a person's constitution and intelligence scores or something, right?

From the sounds of it, any class that has decent intelligence and constitution generally would be ahead of the competition in regards to how many augmentations one can install before hitting their limit; in particular, alchemists and magi... or is there more to it?

...derp. Looks like I replied to the wrong post earlier. Sorry James. A hazard of having 20 tabs open for the forum here. >_<;

As for a Jedi/Sith with a lightsaber... the closest equivalent I've come up with is a bladebound Kensai Magus, with the weapon finesse and Dervish dance feats, along with Telekinesis as a prepared spell.

Anyway... From what I've heard, the amount of cybernetics a character can recieve are supposed to be based off a combination of a person's constitution and intelligence scores or something, right?

From the sounds of it, any class that has decent intelligence and constitution generally would be ahead of the competition in regards to how many augmentations one can install before hitting their limit; in particular, alchemists and magi... or is there more to it?

Yes, cybernetics are limited by Con and Int... but also by gold pieces. They can get expensive REAL FAST, and I suspect that the costs are going to be the real limiting factor, not how invasive the cybertech is.

brilliant energy weapons can't harm objects, undead, and constructs, so no they are a poor substitute for a lightsaber.

I though we didn't want lightsabers. Just energy swords.

Oh well, I can still go pew pew with my lasers so I'm sittin' pretty. Now I'm curious about that armor. Just how good will it be? What will set it apart? Does it come in special materials, and can I get that in neon pink with black pinstriping?

Y'know TOZ, sometimes you're just as willfully unhelpful as I am. Yes, willfully. :P