Deep Magic (PFRPG) PDF

Congrats!

Congrats! I love this book so bad!

A huge amount of blood, sweat and hard work went into this book from everyone involved so accolades are awesome! :)

WINNER! Best RPG Supplement of 2014!

Congratulations to Kobold Press and everyone involved in this project.

I was just going to pop in and say the same thing!!!!

Congratulations, guys!

Question: are there plans to release spell lists for the new ACG classes that get their own spell lists? Or is it left at "ask your GM"?

That's an excellent question. Right now, the focus is on getting the Southlands book to press, but I think it's possible that we'll see such a list at some point.

I'd be interested to see it if anyone wants to take a first crack at it.

At this point, might wait a little longer and rope in Occult Adventures class spell lists, too. Or go ahead and get someone cracking based on the playtest docs!

Yeesh! There are a LOT of spells in Deep Magic!

There ya go Marc just volunteered! ;-)

Right, in all my copious amount of free time, you mean? :P

Sleep is over-rated after all !

Ryan, I had similar thoughts. Doesn't hurt to get the ACG classes list done soon, but I think a release could wait for the new classes to come out.

I went ahead and reviewed up as part of my promise to review more things. Starting with the things I have hard copies of.

The third party spell list problem is one reason why I argued during the ACG playtest that the Shaman and Bloodrager shouldn't get their own spell lists. Personally I think there should have been only 9 spell lists (divine, arcane and nature at the 9/6/4 capacity) and have additional spells be accessed by class features like schools/bloodlines/mysteries, but that ship sailed at the core rulebook.

Malwing
I really want to disagree with your 9/6/4 format, but your access via bloodline class etc. is just a great idea despite ships sailing. Maybe it will be seen in the future as inspiration and added. Or even a 3pp product...

Malwing

I really want to disagree with your 9/6/4 format, but your access via bloodline class etc. is just a great idea despite ships sailing. Maybe it will be seen in the future as inspiration and added. Or even a 3pp product...

To me the primary draw for classes getting their own spell lists are:

Getting spells that compliment the class, which I think should be selectable class features at that point,

Getting high level spells early to accentuate the theme of the class, which I think narrows the class, defeats the point of having diminished levels of casting and could be gained by any number of class features that grant spells known like Bloodlines, Domains, Schools, ect. Heck the Bard could have an exclusive schools that handles it's spell list and differentiate different ideas of what bard magic is like, or;

Restrict the class from casting broken things, which is like the second point but worse.

Then overall the new class/new list problem shows up where you wind up having to assign spells on a case by case basis if it comes from Player Companions, Campaign Setting books or third party sources. And the problem doesn't end with Paizo classes, there are plenty of third party classes that have their own spell list.

Actuall as far as third party solutions go, the product Spheres of Power has my vote of 'how magic should have been' that kind of eliminates the spell list problem and then some.

Is it possible to get the Deep Magic Errata and Clarification PDF? You can get it into your cart, but then the system says the cart is empty when you try to check out...

Deep Magic Errata and Clarification PDF

Also, since I got the pdf with the kickstarter, is there a way to get the updated pdf?

Thanks in advance!

Sounds like the cart thing is a question for Paizo customer support. I'll send a note.

For the updated PDF, absolutely, just pull down the new PDF from your DriveThruRPG file (we delivered the PDF to backers over there, rather than here).

Part II of my review:

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting, on a formal level, are good. On a rules-level, they are BAD and ironically, deeply flawed. Layout, as mentioned, adheres to a 2-column full-color standard and the artworks range among the most stunning I've ever seen in an RPG-book. The pdf comes fully bookmarked with nested bookmarks and the dead-tree copy ranks among the most beautiful books in my shelves.

Read this list: Wolfgang Baur, Creighton Broadhurst, Jason Bulmahn, Tim Connors, Adam Daigle, Mike Franke, Ed Greenwood, Frank Gori, Jim Groves, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Brandon Hodge, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Neil Spicer, Mike Welham, Margaret Weis. With this amount of creative potential assembled, does it surprise you that I consider this book the most inspiring spellbook I've ever read? Alas, even these titans can stumble. And they did.

This book could have been the ultimate spellcasting-milestone, a legend, a book that defines the very game we play, a whole new dimension of spellcasting. And it is - on a concept-level.

Instead, at least on a crunch-level, it is pretty much, as much as I'm loathe to say it, a wreck -not one that has sunk, but one that leaks. The lack of a rules-savvy editor/developer is readily apparent - there are plenty of glitches herein that could have been caught by even a cursory inspection.

And no, that's not just me being overly picky. I put this book before one of my less rules-savvy players, opened it on a random page in the spell-section and had him read spells. Inadvertently, he stumbled over an ambiguity, an issue.

Were I to rate this one the crunch alone, I'd smash it to smithereens - the very skeleton of the book is flawed and that radiates outward to almost all chapters, poisoning them as well. Allowing this book flat and without scrutiny at a table is an invitation for rules-discussions and balance-issues - at least if the players are halfway capable at making efficient characters.

Why am I not bashing this further? Because, while deeply flawed, Deep Magic is also deeply inspired - the concepts herein are staggering, setting the mind ablaze with possibilities, conjuring forth ideas for adventures, campaigns even. Quite a bunch of the flaws can be ironed out by a capable DM...and flawed though it may be, Deep Magic has A LOT of passion, heart's blood and soul oozing from its pages. The concepts of this tome, in the end, made it worthwhile, at least for me.

I'm not going to lie. My players will never get their hands on this book. But I will take the concepts, take the spells, fix them and reap the benefits of the exceedingly awesome concepts provided herein. On the one hand, we thus have a terribly flawed book that fails quite spectacularly and depressingly at becoming what it ALMOST achieved - being the best spellbook for any iteration of a d20-based system ever. On the other, the often flawed crunch does provide more great spell-ideas and concepts (as opposed to their execution...) than the APG, ARG, Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat combined.

Whether this book is for you depends very much on what you expect - if you want solid crunch, a book to just slap on the table and allow...well, then stay the 11 Midgardian hells away from this book. If, on the other hand, you're willing to work with it, if you're looking for inspiration and are competent regarding the design/balancing of material, then this is a scavenger's mithril-mine and a great resource to have - you literally can't open a single page in this book without stumbling over at least one awesome, iconic concept. The hardcover is also great to show off to non-gamer friends and make them marvel at the glorious artworks, layout and presentation.

How to rate this, then? I hate and love this book. I want to slap my seal of approval on it, in spite of its flaws. But I can't. Deep Magic has too many issues and I can't rate potential, as much as I'd love to. I can only rate what is here and its effects - which oscillate between "utterly awesome and inspiring" and "wtf is this supposed to do?"

Without the superb concepts, the lore-steeped ideas, the downright inspired take on magic and its flavor, I would have gone further down on my scale. But, as a reviewer, I also have to take these into account, as well as the people out there who are like me and still can take a lot from this book. Hence, my final verdict will clock in at 3 stars.

Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here and on OBS.

Endzeitgeist out.

Well reasoned review Thilo. It is a very beautiful book.

It is important to note that there were a slew of Kickstarter backer-submitted spells - the designers you listed may not have been responsible for the errors, though of course they are fallible too...
Though ultimately it is in the hands of developers and editors to discern the mistakes and right them....

I was a backer...so.... if you like, you may pick mine apart - consume light and share judgment.;)

I would be interested to know how the Mythic treatment of any flawed Deep Magic spells went for Legendary Games....

Excellent book full of interesting spells, some of which have some minor rule discrepancies but are easily amended (like some uncertainty about saving throws etc but easy to house rule). I'm running Reign of Winter and giving my players access to this when they hit Baba Yaga's hut and find her library. I anticipate it going down very well with the party witch especially!

Doom of the Earthen Maw is extremely powerful. It's DC 17 Strength check base just to free yourself. This isn't counting Spell Focus and high ability score, so on average it's DC 20.

It doesn't allow the use of a skill check like Escape Artist. I dunno if that was an oversight or not.

Most characters cannot beat that Strength check unless you're a warrior type. If the strong types free themselves, there's no method of retrieving allies that are stuck in.

In other words, this one spell is either a total TPK or ends a boss encounter in a couple of rounds very quickly considering an optimized PC can boost the save DC to 20+

Might want to fix this and allow alternative ways of freeing oneself.

A bit late for this, but given the format of the book does anyone let players just pick spells from it? It definitely could have been a shorter and easier to find things without chapter 1 and some of the spells are quite powerful so the impression I got was that the intended use of the book was to grant spells by restricted access, like finding a book or scroll in a dungeon or being taught a new prayer at a church, or finding some hermit that discovered new magics that he will teach. This is as opposed to just handing players the book and letting them go nuts. I think the most valuable thing that could be made as a companion to this book is a separate document with just the class options. So nobody sees the spells unless their class features need it.

A bit late for this, but given the format of the book does anyone let players just pick spells from it? It definitely could have been a shorter and easier to find things without chapter 1 and some of the spells are quite powerful so the impression I got was that the intended use of the book was to grant spells by restricted access, like finding a book or scroll in a dungeon or being taught a new prayer at a church, or finding some hermit that discovered new magics that he will teach. This is as opposed to just handing players the book and letting them go nuts. I think the most valuable thing that could be made as a companion to this book is a separate document with just the class options. So nobody sees the spells unless their class features need it.

That is exactly how I have been handling it. No way would I let my players pour through this. They are supremely able to optimize spells as it is, coming up with combinations that straight decimate any encounter.

Enemy spellcasters have been the closest to them coming to one of the spells in this book. I playtest the spells with enemies first and I mark which spells are balanced and which would be too overpowered.

Doom of the Earthen Maw was one such spell. I considered having an enemy cleric cast this and realize the entire party except for one character would consistently fail to break free unless they can teleport somehow. It'd be an instant TPK in my games.

I wouldn't let my players pour through it either. They'd get it all wet. :-)

Got a question regarding Plague Bearers. It mentions that if you use the summon swarm spell, you'd get two of them. There's a problem though. That spell isn't an oracle spell, and it's not a bonus spell to give. So, my question is, how would an oracle gain access to such a spell?

FWIW, there's some errata on Doom of the Earthen Maw. Not sure if that file has been released yet, but it definitely got an update.

Noting an apparent omission.

On page 53, under the "Necrophagy" section, there is a line under the Fruit of the Mind ability that reads "The creature may be bitten a number of times equal to the below chart." Besides the awkward phrasing of that sentence, the chart appears to have been omitted.

Hm. "The below chart" or "the chart below"? The former sounds awkward to me. <shrug>

Hm. "The below chart" or "the chart below"? The former sounds awkward to me. <shrug>

"As indicated on the chart below," sounds best to me, but still doesn't matter since said chart is not actually below.

Or it's so far below it's fallen off the end. :-)

Thanks for pointing it out! You can ignore that sentence entirely. And since we're looking at p. 53, I'll must mention the missing italics on "restoration" in the next line.

Love the book but hit on an issue today
The Steam Blast spell doesn't seem to be in the book.

A little bit of thread necromancy seems to be fitting to the theme...

Looking for spells for a bard character, I stumbled on Freeze and Greater Freeze (p.176). I think that Greater Freeze does the damage once, right? One might read it as dealing that damage each round, which would be too powerful IMO.

I stumbled on Freeze and Greater Freeze (p.176). I think that Greater Freeze does the damage once, right? One might read it as dealing that damage each round, which would be too powerful IMO.

Heat Metal does damage for rounds, as does Acid Arrow... I don't know that it's too powerful for 9th level casters to do 2d6+9 per round with a hold person-esque effect to a single target. Additionally, they get to save every round against the damage and effect, so that balances Greater Freeze, too. If it goes three rounds, it'll do 48 damage on average, where as Cone of Cold would have done 32 damage in the first round to many targets? It's not outrageous, it's just going over time on the damage versus a lump sum.

That's my opinion on it. By comparison to other 5th level, core effects, Greater Freeze balances decently enough, especially looking at things like Mind Fog or Cloudkill.

-Ben.

I hope I am not graverobbing this thread...

On page 158 there's a spell called doom of blood.
It will target a creature in range with 5 HD tops, but the descriptions says "creatures in range will bleed....".
I read this (shortened) as "I cast the spell. My eyes start bleeding. My target's eyes join the bleeding, as well as every creature's eyes in range of 15 ft arround my target. I start bleeding at 1 hp/round, every other creature in range of 15ft from my target will start at 2hp/round, and with every round anyone stays inside that circle, his bleeding will enhance by 1hp/round.

Now, if this is correct, my question is: If I keep my distance after starting it, will my bleeding increase too?
As english is my 2nd language I kind of have problems with "for both you and those arround you", because I'm not sure, if this might say, that my level 1 spell might actually be able to bring me to bleeding arround (cast at level 6) 6hp in total while my enemies come away with 3 damage, which would be kind of inefficient. (well it's a level 1 spell with an area of effect, so it shouldn't be a way to get rid of bosses, but losing about as much as your adversaries would make this a rather unconfortable spell.

You are correct, the doom of blood is great against swarms and minions, but not efficient at all against single monsters or pairs. Primarily, it is meant to be cast by an evil wizard to terrify and horrify those it affects, rather than to kill. of course, if that evil wizard has a few healing potions, it could certainly work out over a few rounds.

But yes, meant to start a mob riot more than win a battle.

Will this be updated for second edition pathfinder?