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So a Dragon in the Module? Will there be a Dungeon as well?
This Poster map though. Will it be treated for the purpose of PDFs like the maps in the APs? That is, Will we get a separate PDF with an Interactive version of the map when we buy the PDF version of the Module?
Because that would be super awesome.
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I assume I'm not talking out of school here...if so, delete my post, Paizo!
I agree that the 64 page format gives much more flexibility and opens loads of doors for adventures. For The Dragon's Demand, most of those pages are going to be devoted to the adventure itself—I'm hoping PCs will be able to reach level 7 by the end, though that's gonna be pretty tough to achieve. Still, a module that moves players through six levels is pretty huge, twice as big as many single AP volumes.
The Dragon's Demand also features an isolated small Taldan town that serves as the party's base throughout the adventure. The plan is to write it up in considerable detail that should provide loads of role playing opportunities. I've already put a ridiculous number of creative hours into designing a town with over 60 unique buildings/locations and NPCs to populate them, many with backstories. This gave me a chance to create a really memorable setting like the one that drew me into D&D back in the old days: my very first taste of RPG, The Village of Hommlett. My hope is that players will be meeting lots of people and build relationships so that "Belhaim" becomes a word that conjures fond memories for all who spent time there.
The adventure itself is episodic in nature, building inexorably to a final confrontation with the BBEG.
Needless to say, I'm enormously excited about this project and want to thank James for this great opportunity.
And they're paying me to do this, too!
As someone who primarily uses modules to run PFS events, this shift is disappointing. Any change to the modules to make them longer makes them virtually unusable in this context. At the moment, a 32-page module takes all day at a convention, or a commitment to 3 consecutive sessions at a regular game night. Even getting this level of commitment is nigh-impossible.
I will reserve judgement until I see the finished product, of course, but I hope that the powers that be recognize that this is likely to leave a hole in potential PFS offerings - at least from a practical perspective.
UNLESS, of course, the occasional "module" is dedicated to a "Book of Lairs"-style set of mini-adventures and side-quests. ;)
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I am intrigued. I certainly wasnt happy with the current system, though I have been pushing for a return to monthly. Have the society scenarios truly grown to take on the side quest role? I have avoided them since end of season 1, they were all incredibly cookie cutter go find macguffin have four encounters back then.
It would be nice to get to 7th level in this one but I that would be hard to do with a just a 64 page book.
How many pages of this book is actually the adventure itself?
Have the society scenarios truly grown to take on the side quest role? I have avoided them since end of season 1, they were all incredibly cookie cutter go find macguffin have four encounters back then.
Yeah, I haven't been enamored of the straightforwardness of the Scenarios I've seen, though I freely admit to not having looked at them in quite a while. (I also find the statblocks for the different tiers annoying to parse, and I'm old-school enough to prefer a nice little print booklet to a PDF and/or loose sheets of paper I inevitably lose when I'm DMing.)
Upon further reflection, though, this module in particular could work quite well for an E6-style campaign, and I presume higher-level modules wouldn't cover such a wide range of levels but would have room for more than just "go here and fight this statblock and go there and fight that statblock and here's some really complicated maps you'll never be able to copy onto a battlemap." I'll give it a try before I cancel my subscription.
Just caught this, brilliant news! Exactly what I wanted from the modules line. I will definitely be able to justify taking out a sub now.
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The module line when it launched was innovative with incredibly unique adventure styles. Curse of the Bloodsworn Vale, Carnival of Tears, Hangmans Noose, Crucible of Chaos, Tower of the Last Baron and Clash of the Kingslayers were experimental and awesome. Since the switch to PF rules though only Harrowing has stood out from the crowd. As long as we can get back to the design innovation I will be happy.
This has pretty much guaranteed that I will be subscribing to the Modules line after the Holidays are through. This is too good to be true!
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The module line when it launched was innovative with incredibly unique adventure styles. Curse of the Bloodsworn Vale, Carnival of Tears, Hangmans Noose, Crucible of Chaos, Tower of the Last Baron and Clash of the Kingslayers were experimental and awesome. Since the switch to PF rules though only Harrowing has stood out from the crowd. As long as we can get back to the design innovation I will be happy.
There's just one problem: they didn't sell. The modules subscription was the lowest selling Paizo sub (apart from Planet Stories), hence the bimonthly schedule and more "conventional" (read: appealing to a broader audience) modules.
Capitalism is a beach, but hey, there's no other choice.
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The module line when it launched was innovative with incredibly unique adventure styles. Curse of the Bloodsworn Vale, Carnival of Tears, Hangmans Noose, Crucible of Chaos, Tower of the Last Baron and Clash of the Kingslayers were experimental and awesome. Since the switch to PF rules though only Harrowing has stood out from the crowd. As long as we can get back to the design innovation I will be happy.There's just one problem: they didn't sell. The modules subscription was the lowest selling Paizo sub (apart from Planet Stories), hence the bimonthly schedule and more "conventional" (read: appealing to a broader audience) modules.
Capitalism is a beach, but hey, there's no other choice.
But is that because the modules werent mainstream enough or because the market was still debating 3.5 vs 4e? There were a lot of other factors at play. The 3.5 modules and the PF modules are about equal in number now and the 3.5 modules, especially the more experimental ones I mentioned above have the most acclaim.
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Pathfinder APs and setting books were also out there when the market was debating 3.5 vs. 4e, and they didn't take a dive.
Most acclaim does not equate most sales, just look at Planescape: Torment. Reviews go through the roof, best cRPG evah, everything is praised, ads everywhere, experimental and bold, D&D branded, sales? *crickets*
The 3.5 modules and the PF modules are about equal in number now and the 3.5 modules, especially the more experimental ones I mentioned above have the most acclaim.
I'll just point out that acclaim !== sales.
eg: The Hurt Locker, and even Citizen Kane. Going the other direction, *shudder* Transformers 2.
I'm with you on the experimentation bit, Coridan, but sadly just because something has high acclaim does not automatically translate into more sales. Brilliant films that no one goes to see comes to mind as an example.
For sales, more often, broader is better.
Anyway, I'm all for the change and look forward to some much meatier adventure content from this line. I'm old-school enough to remember the old TSR days when modules were hefty in size but didn't really come out on any set schedule. Some years we'd get 8 and other years we'd get 3 or 5. So I welcome a return to bigger modules even if it's just four a year.
Also, for those worried that less modules a year means less high-level content, I don't think that'll be the case. If anything we'll probably be getting more. Right now, at 6 modules per year, we might get one high-level module every year-and-a-half (or quarter). Going to 4 per year doesn't change the fact that we were already getting them incredibly infrequently. I think this opens up room to do one high-level module every year (save the other 3 for more mainstream level), especially since the higher page count will be more conducive to higher-level gaming. One of the biggest hurdles for high-level adventure is page count since stat blocks eat up so much space. That hurdle can now be leaped.
yeah been whingeing for both this content and format for ages
whoop
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+1 for 64 pages (well, +2 at least, since 64 pages+ is awesome)
+1 for Mike Shel
-1 for yet another 1st level start (understand it's a 'restart', though)
-1 for quarterly (though, indeed, going from 192 to 256 pages)
So... yeah. +1. A really good change, for me at least!
64 pages really is awesome; 32 page adventures often suffered from the 'too big for its britches' syndrome (trying to do way to much and way too 'big' of things for the page count).
At first blush, I was a bit put off by the announced change. However, taking a step back, most of my favorite modules (regardless of publisher) were a series of modules that provided a longer story arc (Curse of Immortality, Slavelords, etc.), so I think the potential is very high for the modules to take on the traits of module-series that I like so much.
I do, however, have serious reservations about a single module advancing players from 1st to 6th (or potentially 7th!) level. That's even faster than your average AP installment and for those of us who use the Slow Advancement track, that just seems like a ridiculous spread.
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I'm keen to see the new format and I'm glad you're experimenting. It will be great to see some "supermodules" and hopefully there's scope to flesh out some off-the-beaten-track parts of golarion. I'd echo the sentiment above that I'd be interested in seeing an "AP Epilogue/Sequel" - I'm not convinced it will work, but I'd like to see you try.
Erik should write one based on beginning to explore the Spire of Nex.
Interesting, I may end up renewing my sub on these.
I might actually start a subscription for these.
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I assume I'm not talking out of school here...if so, delete my post, Paizo!
I agree that the 64 page format gives much more flexibility and opens loads of doors for adventures. For The Dragon's Demand, most of those pages are going to be devoted to the adventure itself—I'm hoping PCs will be able to reach level 7 by the end, though that's gonna be pretty tough to achieve. Still, a module that moves players through six levels is pretty huge, twice as big as many single AP volumes.
The Dragon's Demand also features an isolated small Taldan town that serves as the party's base throughout the adventure. The plan is to write it up in considerable detail that should provide loads of role playing opportunities. I've already put a ridiculous number of creative hours into designing a town with over 60 unique buildings/locations and NPCs to populate them, many with backstories. This gave me a chance to create a really memorable setting like the one that drew me into D&D back in the old days: my very first taste of RPG, The Village of Hommlett. My hope is that players will be meeting lots of people and build relationships so that "Belhaim" becomes a word that conjures fond memories for all who spent time there.
The adventure itself is episodic in nature, building inexorably to a final confrontation with the BBEG.
Needless to say, I'm enormously excited about this project and want to thank James for this great opportunity.
And they're paying me to do this, too!
Will there be more art in the book as well (thinking half page stuff featuring the Iconics.)
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So in my mind I am now seeing these as short APs...
That said, for use of that purpose this is great, but for my use of modules this is terrible!
Every module I have run was for PFS play, they are great for when I have a long holiday weekend and fit perfectly in that time frame.
With this new format I don't see how I can fit them in any more for how I use them.
Have thoughts come to mind of formatting these with obvious break points that would allow to run them in chunks and PFS play can be run in these chunks?
To tell the truth I almost cancelled my module subscription because I never got any use out of them, PFS play for them made them useful and I kept the subscription.
Depending on you if can still run parts of these in a very long day or 2 days for PFS play I may have to decide if I want to keep this subscription again... :(
I don't want to lose my purple border... ;)
So in my mind I am now seeing these as short APs...
That said, for use of that purpose this is great, but for my use of modules this is terrible!
Every module I have run was for PFS play, they are great for when I have a long holiday weekend and fit perfectly in that time frame.
With this new format I don't see how I can fit them in any more for how I use them.
Have thoughts come to mind of formatting these with obvious break points that would allow to run them in chunks and PFS play can be run in these chunks?
<snip>
Considering the way I'm designing Dragon's Demand it should most definitely lend itself to being split up into chunks for PFS play. Understand that when an adventure spans multiple levels, a designer needs to know at each point what level PCs are at —otherwise, how would one gage how challenging individual encounters are and if they are suitable for parties? I've actually developed a table specifically for tracking XP total from encounter to encounter in order to keep an eye on this. The module is designed so that the transition from one episode to the next coincides (roughly) with the PCs leveling up. While I can't speak for future volumes, I don't know how a designer could do things any other way.
Also, I'm sure Mark and his obseqious minions are looking at how the change in module format impacts PFS play. Unless he is engaged in some activity more evil.
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Yeah... um... math is not my strong suit. You're right. (I have no idea how the guys downstairs plan to pull that off...)Uh this may be working against my own argument but if ive done my maths right this is more pages a year 6 32 page modules a year = 192 pages. 4 64 page modules a year = 256Quaterly thats rather disapointing.Note that halving the frequency and doubling the page count means that the number of pages we produce each year isn't changing (though we are making 3 more poster maps per year). Frankly, we haven't got the bandwidth to add more pages per year.
guys *downstairs*? Paizo has multiple levels now? jeez.
Any way, this change to the modules line sounds really awesome, and I am totaly looking forward to see all the cool things Paizo can do with it.
I do have a reservation about this specific module though, as I think leveling up 5 times in a 64 page adventure is a bit much, probably means lots and lots of combats or maybe huge story awards.
However, I have full trust in Mr. Shel, I only had the pleasure of reading one of his modules (Curse of the Lady's Light) but it was certainly one of the best Iv'e ever read.
With this announcemnt and the new format, I'm very tempted to subscribe. However....
I'm wondering also if this might not lead to some fun opportunities for Paizo to experiment with extending the occasional AP to level 20...
If THAT starts happening, I will gladly buy all of the "sequel" modules at the very least. :)
Love the change in format! I think this is a good decision by Paizo.
I had cancelled my modules subscription a few months ago, but will be restarting it with The Dragon's Demand.
I'm also very excited at the idea of getting a 64 page adventure by Mike Shel. I loved both Mud Sorcerer's Tomb and Tomb of the Iron Medusa and this one sounds great too!
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Announced! Product image is a mockup, and will change prior to publication.
Note that this product marks a big change for the Pathfinder Module line, shifting it from 32-page bimonthly adventures to 64-page quarterly adventures. They'll also include a double-sided poster map.
This change gives us an opportunity to make Modules into special events, as they can now carry more adventure content than a Pathfinder AP volume.
They will continue to be playable within the Pathfinder Society—though they'll obviously take longer to play!
Longer? they're already three-slot games! My GM fu is not so strong...
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As someone who primarily uses modules to run PFS events, this shift is disappointing. Any change to the modules to make them longer makes them virtually unusable in this context. At the moment, a 32-page module takes all day at a convention, or a commitment to 3 consecutive sessions at a regular game night. Even getting this level of commitment is nigh-impossible.
I will reserve judgement until I see the finished product, of course, but I hope that the powers that be recognize that this is likely to leave a hole in potential PFS offerings - at least from a practical perspective.
UNLESS, of course, the occasional "module" is dedicated to a "Book of Lairs"-style set of mini-adventures and side-quests. ;)
Have to agree. I can't see these realistically being run at a convention, and covering such a wide range of levels (6 levels beginning to end?) I can't see them get much home PFS-play. Though I like longer stories, I prefer the 4-hour format as most of my PFS gaming is weeknights - so being able to break up a game into defined slices (like the 2-round Eyes of the Ten part 1) is great.
I do think, however, considering there are two PFS scenarios each month, making a module doable for Pathfinder society is a boon, but does not need to be the baseline for publication.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. From my perspective, there is a vocal minority of players constantly clamouring for more PFS-compatible adventures. There are also people who are going to perceive this shift as removing something that they already have (that is, modules that can easily integrate into PFS events).
As a home game player, I'm interested and curious to see what this new format looks like. As a Venture-Lieutenant, I'm apprehensive about the shift.
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When it comes to adventures, the market has clearly indicated that people prefer long and epic adventures and have very little interest in smaller adventures. (At least when it comes to buying them. What people actually play is anybody's guess).
The Adventure Path concept itself is Exhibit "A" in this trend. As we look at other 3rd party adventure products, once more, it is the long and lengthy campaign adventures that sell: Rappan Athuk, Slumbering Tsar? These sell. The Rise of the Runelords hardcover? Big seller once again.
Compared to 32 page modules? The sales figures are rather telling. While we don't have hard data on this from within Paizo, we do have sales figures from retailers. At Black Diamond Games, for example, sales at that store indicate that the entire 32 page module line is less than 3% of the store's overall Pathfinder RPG sales volume. Their turn rate is low as well.
APs are three times -- and closing in on four times those sales figures at BDG. Because of the subscription model that Paizo uses for direct sales, my guess is that the AP line clearly sells better than that directly to hardcore fans and the AP line is Paizo's flagship for a reason.
Which leads one to wonder why Pathfinder Society is emphasizing the play of one-off unconnected adventures at all. Put bluntly, I think the entire concept behind PFS Scenarios is the perpetuation of a play style that has not existed since 2nd Edition. It is the selling of yesterday's game using yesterday's adventures. Why? There has got to be a better way of accommodating casual attendance than presenting an endless supply of one-off adventures where the story content is only a little above that presented in Farmville.
In a world where players are linked to the web via smartphones, tablets and computers virtually everywhere, at every time, there has GOT to be a better way than promoting a playstyle that has its roots in the 70s and which clearly isn't selling any more.
(Yes. I get to say things like this again Jeff :))
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When it comes to adventures, the market has clearly indicated that people prefer long and epic adventures and have very little interest in smaller adventures...
[snip]
Which leads one to wonder why Pathfinder Society is emphasizing the play of one-off unconnected adventures at all. Put bluntly, I think the entire concept behind PFS Scenarios is the perpetuation of a play style that has not existed since 2nd Edition. It is the selling of yesterday's game using yesterday's adventures. Why? There has got to be a better way of accommodating casual attendance than presenting an endless supply of one-off adventures where the story content is only a little above that presented in Farmville.
Paizo are already handling this:
- PFS has a meta-setting (the Pathfinder Society) which allows everyone to develop their characters as 'pathfinders in Absalom' with an internal coherence that does not need to be forced.- PFS seasons now have meta-plots which allow casually play and a sense of involvement in epic events.
- PFS regularly has series of 3 or 4 linked adventures which build to a larger plot and are tied to the season plot.
Paizo are already handling this:
- PFS has a meta-setting (the Pathfinder Society) which allows everyone to develop their characters as 'pathfinders in Absalom' with an internal coherence that does not need to be forced.
- PFS seasons now have meta-plots which allow casually play and a sense of involvement in epic events.
- PFS regularly has series of 3 or 4 linked adventures which build to a larger plot and are tied to the season plot.
But to be fair, that the modules are available for Pathfinder society play is somewhat irrelevant. They're produced for a much wider market - ie, the general gaming public - and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those don't have any knowledge of organised play. They look at the products on a game shop shelf for what they are, not whether they're legal / helpful for PFS. And that market return is clearly indicating that larger and more involving modules are what they want. I'd be interested to know what % of the 3% cited above sell to people who want them for organised play.
I think the clear intention is to capture a wider slice of the general gaming population.
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Paizo are already handling this:
- PFS has a meta-setting (the Pathfinder Society) which allows everyone to develop their characters as 'pathfinders in Absalom' with an internal coherence that does not need to be forced.
- PFS seasons now have meta-plots which allow casually play and a sense of involvement in epic events.
- PFS regularly has series of 3 or 4 linked adventures which build to a larger plot and are tied to the season plot.But to be fair, that the modules are available for Pathfinder society play is somewhat irrelevant. They're produced for a much wider market - ie, the general gaming public - and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those don't have any knowledge of organised play. They look at the products on a game shop shelf for what they are, not whether they're legal / helpful for PFS. And that market return is clearly indicating that larger and more involving modules are what they want. I'd be interested to know what % of the 3% cited above sell to people who want them for organised play.
I think the clear intention is to capture a wider slice of the general gaming population.
Exactly!
I'm really excited about this. My /favorite/ range to play is 2nd-6th level and a mini-AP suits me perfectly. While some other posters have mentioned it's a 2e style in a negative way, I see it as a huge positive! I live in a college town, so the players come and go with the terms.. It's not always realistic to expect to get through a whole AP. Mods that are 64 pages that go 1-6 and 64 pages that go 7-12 would be wonderful for me. I hope to see more of them!
I am rather happy about this format. It may cause me to pick up a few as this new line develops. I dont really want yet another adventure that starts at level 1 though So Im likely to pass on the first one. But I like the length and apparent weight of story of this format. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of these sort of mini AP's.
You have listed the ISBN-13 # the same as Doom Comes to Dustpawn.
j.
Corrected! Thanks for pointing that out Jaws. :)
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Im excited to see this. I really enjoyed the crypt,mask, & city mini ap and wondered if they would make more like it. Seems like this could serve that role well. If divided into 3 chapters it could still be used as a one off or pfs game. Not sure if they are doing it in divided chapters but either way i like it.
Great, another subscription I will need to sign up for...I'll go ask my boss for a raise.
<shakes fist at James>
I have always felt that 32 pages couldn't do a lot of those adventures justice.