The Genius Guide to the Talented Fighter (PFRPG) PDF

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The Genius Guide to the Talented Fighter rewrites the classic fighter class to use talents instead of static class abilities alternating with bonus feats. Rather than require all fighters be brave and balance their efforts between armor and weapon bonuses, each fighter can custom-fit the classes abilities to match a player’s specific concept. This increased flexibility allows the fighter to be the default combat-oriented character without limiting it to just one or two styles of fighting. And like a rogue, a fighter character can pick and choose from a range of similarly-powered abilities appropriate for the fighter’s role without making the class overpowered. The talented fighter still fills the same role in the party, but can customize his combat style and abilities to fill a much broader range of concepts.

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Amazing work!


I bought this a while ago and just had a chance to sit down with it. I am impressed! This shows that not only does Owen KC Stephens know what he's doing with the Pathfinder system, it shows that the fighter doesn't need to be set in stone. You could theoretically build a fighter straight out of the Core Book, but why would you want to?

I really like the idea of using other Rogue Genius Games products to enhance this. The Bravery substitutions was something I had thought about while I was reading it.

With products like this, there really are few reasons for all the fighter-fixes on the boards. This addresses almost everything.

Flexibility: Yes (if you want it)
More Skill Points: Yes (if you choose it)
Better Saving Throws: No (Everyone should have a weakness :) )

This will be the version of the fighter I use in my games. There really are no reasons not to.


I'm not a fighter guy, buuuuut...

4/5

WHAT I EXPECTED:
Genius, of course.
Ability to replace class features like Armor Training, Bravery, or Weapon Training for other options like Fast Movement.

Honestly, I'm not a fighter guy. When I get to play, I always play something else that can fight, but never a dedicated fighter, so keep that in mind as you read my review and my expectations. I consider fighters to already be extremely diverse and thus expected Talented Fighter to be a difficult title to pull off. After looking at – and loving – the Talented Rogue and Barbarian titles, I found myself wondering just how much room there really is for change in the fighter.

WHAT I GOT:
No edges. After T/Rog and T/Brb, I was expecting to see “fighter edges” in the list. Maybe they aren't needed – it's just that the departure from the pattern is noticeable. Of course, T/Ftr came first and I looked at T/Rog first, so I'm going at this whole thing backwards, anyway...
No more bonus feats at even-numbered levels. That's now the “combat training” talent.
Talents at every level. Which means “fighter bonus feats” at every level, if you want to build one that way.

WHAT I THINK:

First off, I KNOW my kobold phalanx just got a lot more … interesting. But more on that later!

Owen starts off by explaining the idea behind ripping the class apart and laying out the abilities buffet-style for picking and choosing. Have I mentioned I really like this approach? This makes it easy to mix and match abilities from various fighter archetypes that have been published to achieve a unique character in both flavor and mechanics.

At first glance, it feels like fighters got the short-shaft treatment, getting just one talent per level and no edges, as compared to the T/Brb's bigger hit-die, more skill points, nearly identical skills-set, edge, talent, and primal reserve. However, a fighter's armor proficiencies with medium & heavy armor and shields are things a barbarian has to pay – and pay dearly – for. Fighters also start out with more cash for better weapons and armor. That's because the fighter's main purpose in life is to kill monsters and break their stuff. A barbarian is (quite) a bit more diverse in role than that.

Fighters have the ability to retrain talents, something I don't recall the other Talented classes having. I assume this is in addition to the new fighter talent gained at every level, although this is not explicitly stated one way or the other.

The talents offered are most definitely geared toward making the T/Ftr the best at killing monsters and breaking stuff, while avoiding being killed. Want to focus on VIP protection? You've got loads of options. Do you prefer to focus on your attacks rather than worrying about armor? Not a problem for the Talented Fighter. Prefer to define your shield specialization as being buckler-oriented? Or tower shield oriented? You can do it and do it with style. Turn your crossbowman into a crossbow sniper.

WHAT I THINK:
I had thought fighters were already a diverse class that really didn't need any tweaking or fiddling. I am now convinced I was totally wrong. I could now be enticed into playing a straight-up fighter. And, after looking at the book and comparing it to T/Rog and T/Brb, I honestly can't figure out where I would try to slide in edges for this class. (And if you want to see what Owen Stephens had to say about Talented Fighters and edges, check out his response to my very direct question on the Rogue Genius Games Facebook page.)

Even if this were the third entry in the series (since it is the third one I read), I would declare it to be a solid, credible entry into the series.

My players have new reason to fear kobolds now … the number of phalanx-fighting feats makes me want to go back and revisit/redesign those little buggers into a true fighting force!

WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK:

If your games include fighters, you should seriously consider adding this product to your library and replace the core fighter with the talented fighter. Especially if you pick up “More Fighter Talents,” as well. If your game includes fighters and you do NOT want to include the T/Ftr, you should STILL pick up this book, especially if you follow the guideline from “More Fighter Talents” about allowing the talents in these two books to be taken by a core fighter as a fighter-only feat. But you have to buy “MFT” to get the rules on that.


No more vanilla

5/5

Talented Fighter

I have enjoyed the entire talented line. It allows you the flexibility (even more than archetypes) to play the character concept you want while still being the core Pathfinder/D&D class-based system.

Talented Fighter does not have edges like the others in the talented line. But you get a talent every level that can be a talent or a combat feat. This allows a lot of flexibility and range, but it also allows a fighter to really hone in on things to be really good at it.

Talented Fighter can add spice to a kind of vanilla class. Example: War College - one time gain of 5 skill points to use in class skills.

Another one I like: Vital Combat - The fighter selects one weapon with which he is proficient. If the first attack he makes in round is made with this weapon, he may add the bonus damage dice from Vital Strike to that attack. He may also use this ability with Devastating Strike, Greater
Vital Strike, Improved Devastating Strike, and Improved Vital Strike if he has those feats. The
fighter cannot benefit from these feats more than once per turn. This overrides Vital Strike’s
normal limitation that it may only be used with an attack action.

Buy this and More Fighter Talents. You’ll be happy you did.


Excellent, per the usual

4/5

This product makes three basic observations. First, a feat is roughly equivalent to a talent or a standard fighter class feature. Second, almost every other class gets a new ability at each level, so there is no reason the fighter shouldn't as well. Third, most fighter archetypes are restrictive, and their abilities generally don't have much mechanical or logical connection to each other beyond an extreme specialization. The result is a straightforward rewrite of the fighter class that simply gives them a talent at every level(a combat feat being an available choice for every level, if you wish). The poor man's class feature, Bravery, now takes up one slot, as it should. Many of the talents were gleaned from existing fighter archetypes; others are new. Weapon mastery is now one of several grand talents available at 20th level. This book is fantastic, and you should buy it.

The only reason this book doesn't get 5 stars is its relatively buttoned down nature. It doesn't do anything radical or game-changing, which is not a defect in a product of this nature. However, there just weren't a lot of things that made me say, "Gosh, I wish I had thought of that." Still, it's hard to identify many more worthwhile purchases, especially for the price.


An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5

This pdf is 14 pages long, 2/3 of a page front cover,1 page editorial/SRD, leaving 12 1/3 pages of content, so let's take a look!
I'll come right out and say it: I don't like the fighter-class. There. I get the appeal of many feats/the master-of-arms angle, but the base-class, since 2nd edition really, bored me terribly. Armor Training, weapon training, weapon specialization - I get their appeal and their mechanical raison d`être but personally, I always considered the class oh so boring. PrCs, archetypes and e.g. the revision of barbarian, ranger, paladin and monk classes, as well as the addition of inquisitors and cavaliers have made vanilla fighters all but non-existent in my game.

Now an issue, as the pdf acknowledges, is that fighters, to expand their options unlike other classes are often locked down to archetypes, which deprive the class to some extent of the flexibility at which they are supposed to excel at - enter the talented fighter as a proposed solution to this conundrum. The talented fighter gets full BAB, good fort-saves, d10, 2+Int-skills per level, proficiencies of simple and martial weapons as well as all armors and shields. The talented fighter gets a talent at every level, may select advanced talents at 10th level and grand talents at 20th level. Now if you do want to take bonus feats, rest assured that the pdf offers a talent that grants a bonus combat feat and armor training/weapon training, bravery etc. I.e., if you want the abilities associated with the base fighter, you can still go that way - only that now, you actually have much more options.

All in all, the pdf thus provides a vast array of talents and going through them would bloat this review to unpleasant lengths, so let me give you a run-down of what to expect: First of all, we have a lot of talents that essentially are scavenged from archetypes, breaking them down and allowing you to essentially cherry-pick e.g. abilities from the mobile fighter archetype, the tower shield specialist, the crossbowman or the roughrider - just to name a few. Feel free to look them up and think about whether picking a few of the archetype abilities wouldn't make for a valid decision. Essentially, the talent-based approach allows the talented fighter more versatility in that it makes these exclusive abilities generally available. Now not all of the talents in here are based on archetypes and grand talents/advanced talents e.g. include capstone abilities of archetypes or talents that have multiple prerequisites.
The pdf also offers advice on how to utilize talents from e.g. the witch hunter or armiger-classes and alternate class features of SGG-classes as talents and increase the usability of this alternate fighter even further.
Conclusion:
Editing and formatting of this latest revision are top-notch, I didn’t notice any glitches. Layout adheres to SGG’s 3-column full color standard and the pdf comes fully bookmarked with nested bookmarks that group the talents by letters. Whether you prefer the alphabetical array of talents or whether you would have enjoyed a grouping by styles/archetypes they’re derived from is ultimately a matter of taste, though I maintain that bookmarks would have served very well as an alternate means of grouping the talents – e.g. with a bookmark for crossbow-related talents and nested bookmarks beyond that one for the respective talents associated with that combat style.
How do you rate a pdf that is comparatively unimaginative in the bits and pieces it provides? Turns out, in this case, quite well – for the Talented Fighter is smart in that it does not aim to reinvent the wheel – it doesn’t have to. Instead, it takes existing concepts and streamlines them into a presentation that is thoroughly different from what you had associated with them into a form that is ultimately bigger than the sum of its parts.
The talented fighter takes my least favorite base-class and takes quite a bunch of archetypes/abilities to make the overall class simply more in line what I’d consider compelling class design, opening quite an array of formerly exclusive archetype abilities to the class and thus giving the fighter some exclusive toys to play with – a much overdue decision, at least in my opinion. Now is this the apex of originality? No. But is this a great way of breathing life and fun into the fighter class? To this question, my answer is a resounding “Yes!” Hence also the reason why I’ll gladly give this pdf a final verdict of 5 stars, omitting my seal of approval only since the alternate means of organizing the talents would have made for the superb icing on the cake. I strongly encourage you to check this out and make the fighter more singular and up to date.

Endzeitgeist out.


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My vote is for the Talented Monk, I'm sure you'll do both justice. Besides, if anything else comes up there is always #1 with a Bullet Point add-ons.

Dark Archive

Those laces on page 11 just don't stand a chance to contain those long.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Those laces on page 11 just don't stand a chance to contain those long.

I assume that's leather cord in a leather vest with metal grommets. They'll be fine.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

As promised we have released a follow-up product with more talents (none adapted from archetypes), The Genius Guide to More Fighter Talents


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


As promised we have released a follow-up product with more talents (none adapted from archetypes), The Genius Guide to More Fighter Talents

Been there. Bought that. Thanks :)

Dark Archive

I got this from one of my players as a present and I must say that I am very satisfied with the class. This is exactly what I needed for my games. Indeed, I worked on a very similar class, but it was just too much work to sift through all the archetypes and pull out talents from them.

I would suggest to now go to Fighter alternative classes, such as Gunslinger. Perhaps the Gunslinger can be broken down into fighter talents? That would allow for even more freedom of choice when creating new characters.

Also, I'm gonna second the Talented Rogue - but I'm gonna ask that Ninja and Assassin are included in breaking down to Talents. The game really needs a base-class Assassin.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

nightflier wrote:
I got this from one of my players as a present and I must say that I am very satisfied with the class. This is exactly what I needed for my games.

I'm glad to hear you find it useful!

nightflier wrote:
I would suggest to now go to Fighter alternative classes, such as Gunslinger. Perhaps the Gunslinger can be broken down into fighter talents? That would allow for even more freedom of choice when creating new characters.

Yeah, I'm working on that. It turns out to actually be pretty tricky. I will likely at least present it as an alternative set of rules.

nightflier wrote:
Also, I'm gonna second the Talented Rogue - but I'm gonna ask that Ninja and Assassin are included in breaking down to Talents. The game really needs a base-class Assassin.

Definitely looking at that, although there are some balance issues with giving some assassins abilities at low-level.

Of course if you just need a flavorful assassin-themed base class, you might take a look at The Genius Guide to the Shadow Assassin. :)


And reviewed first on Endzeitgeist.com, submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazien, then also posted here, on DTRPG and d20pfsrd.com's shop. Cheers!

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

As always, many thanks for the review!

Contributor

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
nightflier wrote:
I got this from one of my players as a present and I must say that I am very satisfied with the class. This is exactly what I needed for my games.

I'm glad to hear you find it useful!

nightflier wrote:
I would suggest to now go to Fighter alternative classes, such as Gunslinger. Perhaps the Gunslinger can be broken down into fighter talents? That would allow for even more freedom of choice when creating new characters.
Yeah, I'm working on that. It turns out to actually be pretty tricky. I will likely at least present it as an alternative set of rules.

The one thing that always disappointed me about the Gunslinger was that he (or she) just got all of his/her deeds for free. Didn't have to select them like talents, just poof! Deeds.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The one thing that always disappointed me about the Gunslinger was that he (or she) just got all of his/her deeds for free. Didn't have to select them like talents, just poof! Deeds.

Yeah, I already made one run at increasingly gunslinger flexibility in Ultimate Options: Grit and Gunslingers. And if I do write The Talented Gunslinger, it's very likely to have instructions on how to add that material, since I liked it a lot.


Since it's come up a few times, let me say I would NOT want to see talents sub-divided into trees, for many reasons. The most important is that it would be much more difficult to look up a talent during play, which is when time is at a premium. With everything being a talent, advanced talent, or grand talent, I can just list the talent name with an (a) or (g if needed, and look it up alphabetically. If they are broken into trees,I'd have to either check every tree, or write down what tree every talents on a character sheet came from, which crowds me badly.

Its the same objection many people have to the short feat descriptions being broken up by prerequisite -- a straight alphabetical listing is *always* fastest for look-ups. And since when creating a character either you know what you want (in which case it doesn't matter how it's organized) or you're looking for options (in which case you want to read everythign anyway), I wouldnt be saves any time by talent trees then either.

The standard paizo method is MUCh better IMHO.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Those laces on page 11 just don't stand a chance to contain those long.
I assume that's leather cord in a leather vest with metal grommets. They'll be fine.

Of course there might be some surprise value in DM being right and the laces giving out!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Dungeon Grrrl wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Those laces on page 11 just don't stand a chance to contain those long.
I assume that's leather cord in a leather vest with metal grommets. They'll be fine.
Of course there might be some surprise value in DM being right and the laces giving out!

I'm TriOmegaZero and a redhead, and I approve of this message.

Dark Archive

Any reason why Steel Net (from the Swordlord PrC) was left out as a talent?
It seems that many of the other Swordlords abilities are included.

It would be very useful to a Crane Style practitioner...or is that too useful?

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

In playtesting, it stood as as too good when combined with some other options -- and yeah, crane style was part of those combos. But also with the free hand fighter talents available for grabs, I didn't see the need for steel net too.

Dark Archive

I thought that might be the case.

Thank you for your time.

Zenlike


So is this like the qinggong monk version of a fighter?<--Not a bad thing

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Mr. Swagger wrote:
So is this like the qinggong monk version of a fighter?<--Not a bad thing

Kinda, yes. But even more so.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I imagine it would be a terrible headache but it would be really neat to see something like this for sorcerers and wizards, combined. Tear up the bloodlines and spell schools and have different options selectable. I may be the only one interested in such a thing, but I never saw why a sorcerer should be excluded from things like the admixture school.

Also could be just me but I would love to see something like stalwart sorcerer (UA) and battle sorcerer (PH2).

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

BigDTBone wrote:
I imagine it would be a terrible headache but it would be really neat to see something like this for sorcerers and wizards, combined.

I am very likely to do Talented Sorcerer and Talented Wizard... eventually. And much like the section on combining monk and rogue, I am sure I'd discuss what happens if you decide to make some level of cross-talent selection available between the two.


Spinning Lance (Ex):
A fighter must have taken weapon mastery with the polearm or spears weapon group and have a base attack bonus of +6 to select the spinning lance talent.

This talent calls for the grand talent feat of Weapon Mastery with polearms or spears, but the problem with that is, there is only one grand talent, given at 20th level, with no options to gain anymore talents after that.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Delos Fear wrote:
This talent calls for the grand talent feat of Weapon Mastery with polearms or spears

Brain hiccup on my part. The prerequisite should be weapon training, not weapon mastery.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Many thanks to RJGrady for the review!


Okay, so looking over the talented monk & rogue, there should be fighter edges at lvs 1 & probably 2 just to even out the ability count with normal fighter & keep it competitive with the talented monk & rogue.

Some edge ideas could be:
*any of the bravery & like abilities(cause on the low end, most of those honestly aren't worth spending a talent on)
*additional skills points & class skills(ie, increase skill points to 4+ int mod & add 2-4 class skills to the list),
*the heavy armor proficiencies & tower shields proficiencies(which would be used to pay for the 1rst fighter's edge).

Being able to get an 'edge' chosen from those 3 categories instead of just getting heavy armor & calling it a day should give a lot of options & good low end customization, even if it only is a thing given that at lv 1.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

The reason* I didn't give fighters edges is because they don't need them. In playtest this class has proven competitive with all the other talented options.

It's not so much that edges are more powerful than talents (though certainly some are at the upper end of as-good-as-a-feat, while talents tend to be in the middle of that range) but that edges get out of hand if a character gets lots and lots of them.

While the lack of resource management abilities (no ki points or challenges, for example) and even power curve (a feat is always useful, whenever you get it, and many of the bests scale with level) means there are no fighter abilities that get problematic if you get to acquire them without a limit to how often you do it.

*It's also because I hadn't thought of them yet, but that's because (due to the reasons above) there was no need for them when building talented fighters.


Still, a minor option for customization on the low end wouldn't hurt.

Like I said, Bravery & most of the abilities like it aren't worth taking early on over any other talents and many builds will never need/want heavy armor so it's kind of a wasted thing to have thematically.
Also, dusting off the 3.5 stuff I could get more skill points at the cost of the armor proficiencies that weren't light(which is what I *should* have posted in my suggestion but eh), so I figured the higher armor proficiencies would be a good optional thing to pay for a lv 1 edge.

Using that method, you really could only get the 1 edge at lv 1(maybe at 2 if you want to give it the missing slot from where bravery used to be. though I suspect that was left blank for a reason). I thought of this idea give a little bit more customization options without screwing up the game balance any. It's just a suggestion, though. Mechanically it should be about as strong either way.


So, for the Vital Combat talent, was it intentional to leave out Greater Vital Strike? Or should that be included?

Scarab Sages Contributor

My copy says: "He may also use this ability with Devastating Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Devastating Strike, and Improved Vital Strike if he has those feats."


I'm looking at the talents adapted from the Free-Hand Fighter. Singleton and Greater Singleton are given +1 each, which is a total of +2, rather than +3 in the original. On the other hand, elusive is a single talent that grants up to +4 AC, and mimic a wonkily written ability that replaces armor training 1 through 4 (but has the scaling written as though it just replaces bravery). Intentional? Any thoughts there?

Scarab Sages Contributor

RJGrady wrote:
I'm looking at the talents adapted from the Free-Hand Fighter. Singleton and Greater Singleton are given +1 each, which is a total of +2, rather than +3 in the original.

Yep. That's pretty much a combined effect of playtesting and the ability to combine it with options not available to an original free-hand fighter. And it is based on limiting your offense rather than your defense, so stacking issues can get tricky. While a free-hand fighter gives up armor training (see your question below), a talented fighter can still focus on not being slowed down at all in heavy armor and take singleton, and while he gives up holding a shield, nothing prevents him from getting a shield bonus from some source.

RJGrady wrote:
On the other hand, elusive is a single talent that grants up to +4 AC, and mimic a wonkily written ability that replaces armor training 1 through 4 (but has the scaling written as though it just replaces bravery). Intentional? Any thoughts there?

Elusive is limited to when you are in light armor or no armor, and it scales over levels without the option to spend more talent picks to front-load it. So unlike singleton, it is limited to when you could have heavier armor on, and that makes it less valuable to a talented fighter. In the end, this also ended up being balanced through playtesting.


Added my review. I'm already looking at it for ways to convert it into a sci-fi base class... ;)

Scarab Sages Contributor

Thanks to Doc Outlands for the review!
The retraining of fighter talents (as mentioned in the review) was to retain fighter flexibility. It's not discussed much, and it only comes in in fairly long-running ongoing campaigns, but fighters can retrain their bonus feats per the core rules.
"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level."
That means that while other people are either stuck with their feats, or have to use downtime retraining rules, a fighter who discovers a campaign is much more about shooting down the Harpy Legions than going toe to toe with giants can swap out Lunge for Weapon Focus (crossbow) if he feels the need. I wanted to make sure talented fighters weren't left in the cold in this regard.
It's one of the two "unseen edges" all fighters get, along with the ability to qualify for fighter-only feats. I suppose if *could* strip the fighter down even further, and have these be choices the fighter makes but much like the barbarian's ability to tap a reserve of primal energy (which can be used to fuel rage, or other things), I thought it fairly integral to the fighter concept.

Scarab Sages Contributor

ALSO thanks to Lord Sqwonk , who did a review I somehow missed!

Shadow Lodge

I'm often inspired by Owen's work, and we recently utilized the talented framework to create an alternate fighter class called The Ultimate Gladiator. Keep up the great work Owen!

Scarab Sages Contributor

First, I am blushing!

Second, awesome! See folks, 3pp DO work to build off each other's good ideas!


Which is as it should be!!

...darnit...
Now I'm honor-bound to go check out this piece of work, since well ... one of my players loves gladiators (as do I) *AND* since I plan to use the Talented framework for quick-start character creation in my sci-fi adventure I'm working on.

(having multiple reasons to go get a product makes it easier to justify getting the product... ;) )


Question on Twin Blades talent.

Twin Blades (Ex): [Archetype – Two-Weapon Warrior] When wielding two melee weapons or a double weapon in two hands, the fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack that includes offhand
attacks. This bonus counts as (and does not stack with) weapon mastery.
This talent may be taken more than once,but not more than once per 4 levels.

Based on the actual archetype, I am assuming that you meant does not stack with Weapon Training. Is that correct?

Since Twin Blades is not as flexible as Weapon Training, I was thinking it could be taken more often then Wpn Training. But the last sentence makes it sound like it can be taken at 4th, 8th, 12th etc. Was the intent 1 additional time for every 4 levels? So 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th etc?

Thanks


Yes, it should say weapon training.

Actually in many ways Twin Blades is MORE flexible than weapon training. Weapon training applies to a group of related weapons. Twin Blades applies to any weapon used as part of a full-attack with an off-hand attack. You could apply it to a shortsword-and-dagger, or orc double axe, which are otherwise unrelated in any way.

In any case, 4th, 8th, 12th, and so on is correct.


Ok. I was looking more at Wpn training applying to both single and full attacks. But you make a good point.(And why you work for Paizo and run your own 3pp company.)


Many thanks to Bob_Loblaw for the review!

It's especially gratifying for older books, since books that are 3+ years old often don't garner much attention.

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