
Heine Stick |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

To me, Ultimate Campaign is a perfect example of the principle that guides the Paizo staff - they create books that they (the Paizo staff) want to see in the game AS GAMERS. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line doesn't follow any previous model for releasing game books (such as the D&D 3.X era). They simply produce books that they WANT to produce. I would not be surprised to see a healthy mix of splat books and books like Ultimate Campaign going forward. When they come up with a good idea, they run with it.

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Steve Geddes wrote:On the flips side, one could argue that they had no rhyme or reason to modules release, and weren't consistent with the releases of modules. Imagine if the AP's were, instead of timely releasing them each month in a consitant pattern, AP's were released willy nilly as modules were. Would AP's be as popular selling as they are now then?
I'm with you, but collectively we weren't buying them (I suspect). Or at least not buying them as much as we were buying the other stuff, which is the same thing as us saying we don't want them.
Actually I'd point out all the lines (Except adventure paths) Schedules are often inconsistent. However modules as has ben mentioned before is the least popular line and I assume they know more about what the majority wanted from modules than you and I do.

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carmachu wrote:Actually I'd point out all the lines (Except adventure paths) Schedules are often inconsistent. However modules as has ben mentioned before is the least popular line and I assume they know more about what the majority wanted from modules than you and I do.Steve Geddes wrote:On the flips side, one could argue that they had no rhyme or reason to modules release, and weren't consistent with the releases of modules. Imagine if the AP's were, instead of timely releasing them each month in a consitant pattern, AP's were released willy nilly as modules were. Would AP's be as popular selling as they are now then?
I'm with you, but collectively we weren't buying them (I suspect). Or at least not buying them as much as we were buying the other stuff, which is the same thing as us saying we don't want them.
And thus, carmachu, my statement being COMPLETELY relevant. If you want short, sometimes generic scenarios, Pathfinder Society produces a lot of good one-shot adventures (they might require toning down on difficulty though). Plus there are plenty of 3PP adventures that could always use the sales, many of which are actually pretty high-quality productions.

Azure_Zero |

That's why I like UP best.
(Combat however should be Cbt for best clarity, if you want a 3 letter abbr.)
So what if Paizo releases Ultimate Player (UP), it'll take UP and its spot since it's the more logical choice for UP as a short form.
The rule of short forms is in general you always take the first letter of each word and upper case them (with certain exceptions like; of and the), and if need be some following letters that make sense and are made lower case.
That and we have been following this rule for Every release that paizo has done.
Thus following that rule "UP" is invalid for Ultimate Campaign as a short form, But UC is valid, as is UCmp, UCpg, UCam and UCpn.
For Ultimate Combat, UC is valid, as is UCmb, UCmt, UCbt, UCom and UCmbt.

Queen Moragan |

My thought was to use a 2-letter upper case designator for all Ultimate books (similiar to US State postal abbr.).
This is the first hardcover to duplicate the initials of a previous book.
Ultimate P(layer), I really don't think will ever happen.
So simply defaulting to the second syllable makes more sense;
If UM were the second book, it would be UG,
If UC were the second book, it would be UB,
If UE were the second book, it would be UQ.
Your "invalid short forms" is invalid itself (wrong premise);P
I'm suggesting using a system that allows only 2 upper case letters and no lower case letters.
Though, it does now occur to me that we could use UK,
Ultimate K(ingmaker), in homage.
(But I would keep that for the Hardcover Anniversary edition due out in 2014.)

Azure_Zero |

Ultimate player is an possible example of something that short forms into UP.
Again short form rules are First Letter of any word is Upper Case (None other except of and the), and if need be other letters in the word follow the First letter of that word are Lower Case and in order from their position in the word.
So valid short forms for Ultimate Combat are UC, UCmb, UCmt, UCbt, UCom, UCmbt, UltC, UltCmb, UltCmt, UltCbt, UltCom and UltCmbt.
Side Visable
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Combat
And valid short forms for Ultimate Campaign are UC, UCmp, UCpg, UCam UCpn, UltC, UltCmp, UltCpg, UltCam, and UltCpn
Side Visable
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Campaign

Queen Moragan |

Azure_Zero
IMHO you are way over thinking this.
In the hopes of keeping it as simple as possible, I recommend the following;
For a 2 letter system;
UC = Ultimate Combat
UP = Ultimate Campaign
For a non-2 letter system;
UCbt = Ultimate Combat
UCpn = Ultimate Campaign
Or, we could just use whatever the developers have been using over the past year or so.:D

Azure_Zero |

...
In the hopes of keeping it as simple as possible, I recommend the following;For a 2 letter system;
UC = Ultimate Combat
UP = Ultimate CampaignFor a non-2 letter system;
UCbt = Ultimate Combat
UCpn = Ultimate CampaignOr, we could just use whatever the developers have been using over the past year or so.:D
I was just showing some the variations that are usable based on short form rules
I don't think a 2 letter system is usable, as it'll have problems later as more books get released.
(Imagine if they made Unearthed Magic, Unified Combat, or Unique Equipment)
So I agree that the non-2 letter system is the way to go.
Though I think these ones are the best options, but yours do fit as well.
Ultimate Combat = UCmb < - Drop the U and it somewhat abbreviates to Cmb which is Combat Manuver Bonus, which well known.
Ultimate Campaign = UCmp or UCpg

Queen Moragan |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Idealy, you want the abbreviation to also look like the word it represents, and not look like the other word.
Since we are actually only talking about the words Combat & Campaign.
Both start with "C".
Then there is an "om" & an "am", best avoid these, too similiar.
That takes care of the entire first syllable in both words.
We now have "bat" & "paign".
Remove the vowels and any silent letters(why put a silent letter in an abbr.?), and we are left with "bt" & "pn".
The results are Cbt(CBT) which looks like Combat & Cpn(CPN) which looks like Campaign, neither looks like the other nor could be mistaken for the other.
I will definitely call mine George!
And hug it!
And squeeze it!
And give it lots of love!

Lord Mhoram |

I think they finally got all that crunch nonsense out of the way and now have the freedom to deliver actual creative content. Stuff for our imagination instead for dice throwing.
I'm of the other stripe - I find non mechanical stuff to be very bland. I can come up with histories, backgrounds, gods and whatnot without any issues. A new mechanic will often lead me to think about how it applies - and that can lead to character ideas, or even cultural stuff depending on what the mechanic is. Mechanics are creative as well as non mechanics.
And I am really looking forward to getting this in a couple of days.

KujakuDM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

KujakuDM wrote:When are we going to get PDF's of the sheets within?The Kingdom / Army sheets are all in the book. If you have a hard copy, you can photograph / scan them. If you have a PDF, print them out.
And for those that don't have access to a copier and own a hard copy?
Is there a chance of the sheets being put out as a standalone pdf?

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And thus, carmachu, my statement being COMPLETELY relevant. If you want short, sometimes generic scenarios, Pathfinder Society produces a lot of good one-shot adventures (they might require toning down on difficulty though). Plus there are plenty of 3PP adventures that could always use the sales, many of which are actually pretty high-quality productions.
And thus, paizo DOESNT produce what folks want. Nor is it relevant. AP's launch EVERY MONTH. Consistantly- barring shipping issues. And telling me there are plenty of 3PP adventures isn't Paizo satisfying wants. Its shoving us out the door.

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xevious573 wrote:And thus, paizo DOESNT produce what folks want. Nor is it relevant. AP's launch EVERY MONTH. Consistantly- barring shipping issues. And telling me there are plenty of 3PP adventures isn't Paizo satisfying wants. Its shoving us out the door.
And thus, carmachu, my statement being COMPLETELY relevant. If you want short, sometimes generic scenarios, Pathfinder Society produces a lot of good one-shot adventures (they might require toning down on difficulty though). Plus there are plenty of 3PP adventures that could always use the sales, many of which are actually pretty high-quality productions.
Why can't you buy the Pathfinder Society adventures? They are $4 a piece, they produce a lot of them for varying different level ranges, they are small enough to drop into a campaign without disrupting the flow of the campaign, and they come in serials and standalones. What part of that isn't what you exactly wanted?
Here's a link for you. You don't need to be playing in Pathfinder Society to use these modules for your home games, it just means you won't be able to be a player in those modules in Society play.

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xevious573 wrote:And thus, paizo DOESNT produce what folks want. Nor is it relevant. AP's launch EVERY MONTH. Consistantly- barring shipping issues. And telling me there are plenty of 3PP adventures isn't Paizo satisfying wants. Its shoving us out the door.
And thus, carmachu, my statement being COMPLETELY relevant. If you want short, sometimes generic scenarios, Pathfinder Society produces a lot of good one-shot adventures (they might require toning down on difficulty though). Plus there are plenty of 3PP adventures that could always use the sales, many of which are actually pretty high-quality productions.
The APs are also the backbone of the entire business. It's the AP subscriptions that allow them to do everything else. Because the AP's ARE immensely popular, sell really well and are the one thing that Paizo makes SURE ships on time every month because if they don't it could kill the company.

Chemlak |

I'm happy with UCa or UCam.
On another issue, which became relevant after a discussion with one of my players today: unless I missed it, there is no indication of how the lyre of building interacts with the downtime system. I'd think that an item capable of performing 300 man-days of construction work in 30 minutes would affect building construction in some pretty odd ways. I'm currently considering allowing a free Labor capital gain check with Perform (stringed instrument) once per week, but since the lyre quite merrily allows someone to spend a day playing it (provided they can make a fairly trivial skill check), a defined effect for it under downtime rules would probably be a good idea (particularly since someone could play it for 7.5 hours and turn that into 4,800 man-hours, which would really screw up the numbers).

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

Long ago, I had to accept that "what I want" from a gaming company is not the same as "what everyone wants" or "what the majority of purchasers want." I also had to accept that a company with a few dozen staff were not going to be able to capably produce every awesome gaming thing ever on a weekly or even monthly basis.
But a discussion of Paizo's module production schedule vs AP schedule, etc. should probably go into another thread.
Going OT...
To Ultimate Campaign, I've been using UCa as an abbreviation and I think it works, personally.
Chemlak, you make a very good point. Really, "how does this system interact with magic items in core?" should really be a standard on the checklist of stuff to double check in systems in any RPG line supplement. I can get it if it skips past something in a splat, but something that's in core--and a longstanding item that's been in many editions of D&D--shouldn't have been skipped over. Likewise for labor saving spells.

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James Jacobs has said many times that psychic magic is a core part of certain parts of Golarion. Specifically the Keleshite empire and Vudra. They won't call them psionics, but rather psychic magic. But again, this is off topic and should go to it's own thread.

Alexander Augunas Contributor |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

@Deathquaker:
If you look at the Downtime Rules from a logical perspective, it becomes pretty easy to see how it would interact with a lyre of building
First, here's the magic item in question:
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot —; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.Description
This magical instrument is usually made of gold and inlaid with numerous gems. If the proper chords are struck, a single use of this lyre negates any attacks made against inanimate construction (walls, roof, floor, and so on) within 300 feet. This includes the effects of a horn of blasting, a disintegrate spell, or an attack from a ram or similar siege weapon. The lyre can be used in this way once per day, with the protection lasting for 30 minutes.The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week, its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, etc. The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check. If it fails, she must stop and cannot play the lyre again for this purpose until a week has passed.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost 6,500 gp
So, taking the rules apart, we know that in 30 minutes, the lyre can do the labor of 100 men working for three days.
Now, if we go to the Downtime Rules, we see the following:
The Leadership feat can grant you followers—people loyal
to you who assist you if they are able. In the downtime system, followers provide additional Influence or Labor to supplement your activities at no cost to you. This increases the effect of Influence or Labor you spend by 50%, to a maximum of 1 additional Influence or Labor for every 2 followers in the settlement where the downtime activity takes place.Under certain circumstances, the GM may rule that followers provide less of a benefit than the standard 50% increase. For example, if your followers live in a different settlement and must travel to your location, but bandit activity makes travel risky or they have been away from home for a week or more, the GM might decide that your followers increase the effect of Influence or Labor by only 1 for every 3 followers or even 1 for every 4. Your followers are loyal to you, but they are not slaves and can provide only so much help before they go about their normal lives.
So if we use the followers as a guideline, we could effectively say that a lyre of building does the same amount of work as 100 followers laboring for three days. Using those follows, the lyre of building allows three days worth of Labor that you spend to gain a 50% increase, up to 50 additional Labor. Since it allows three days worth of work, then every 30 minutes it allows you to spend up to three days' worth of labor, as determined by the settlement's spending limits. After an hour of play (or six day's worth of labor) you have to make a Perform check; failure indicates that you cannot use the lyre again for one week.
Some further thoughts, it might be fair to make a few alterations to these rules; namely the fact that the item claims you have the work of 100 rulers. Looking under the Settlement Rules, "100" falls squarely in the range of the Village (a population of 61 to 200). Now, granted, the Downtime Rules state that not ALL of the workers are going to help you, so this might not necessarily be the absolute best value to pick but it works. Picking the village allows the GM to say, "Okay, the lyre of building has a daily spending limit of 10 Labor, which counts as 15 Labor because of the followers bonus. So every 30 minutes you can spend up to 30 labor and have it count as 45 Labor."
Without making a single Perform check, that's enough Labor to build a house and a half.

Swashbucklersdc |

On another issue, which became relevant after a discussion with one of my players today: unless I missed it, there is no indication of how the lyre of building interacts with the downtime system. I'd think that an item capable of performing 300 man-days of construction work in 30 minutes would affect building construction in some pretty odd ways. I'm currently considering allowing a free Labor capital gain check with Perform (stringed instrument) once per week, but since the lyre quite merrily allows someone to spend a day playing it (provided they can make a fairly trivial skill check), a defined effect for it under downtime rules would probably be a good idea (particularly since someone could play it for 7.5 hours and turn that into 4,800 man-hours, which would really screw up the numbers).
I found a reference you can use in the mean time; according to the follower section on page 80, 2 followers working one day equal one point of Labor. Using that number, you can approximate that one Labor equals 16 man-hours. It is also stated that you can spend extra Labor to complete buildings quicker on page 92. Using these two points in combination, a Lyre of Building generates (100 men x 3days x 8 hours=2400 man-hours/16 man-hours) 150 Labor per 30 minutes of being played.

Bobson |

@Deathquaker:
If you look at the Downtime Rules from a logical perspective, it becomes pretty easy to see how it would interact with a lyre of building
...
That's a really nice analysis, but it's one that Paizo should have done and incorporated the results of in the rules. Not every GM is going to be able to recreate that, or will see this post. Even those that do, there's different interpretations, as Swashbucklersdc's example shows.
I still can't buy a copy to read it on my own, but this is the first thing I've heard about this book that's disappointed me.

Chemlak |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Thanks everyone who pointed to the "using extra labor" and "followers as labor" sections - I had already looked at them, but hadn't fully crunched numbers, and just to put Alexander's analysis into some more perspective, that means that the lyre of building (a 13,000 gp item) does 450 gp of labour in the first 30 minutes, with an additional 450 per hour thereafter. In 7.5 hours (assuming 7 DC 18 Perform (stringed instrument) checks are made) it does 3,600 gp worth of labour. It can only function once per week, but it pays for itself after 4 uses. That bothers me.
The only other thing I found that bugs me slightly (and I really do mean slightly) is also in the downtime rules - the example buildings (which are awesome) give you a full breakdown of the costs of creating them, but I would have also liked a compiled detailing of their Capital bonuses, too. As it stands, every time I want to see what bonuses a pre-generated building grants me, I have to add up the bonuses from all of the component rooms. (I then write them down, so I don't have to keep doing it.)
Final nitpick - I've since lost the page, but there's a typo somewhere, wherein "thought" is used when the word intended (from context) is "though".
Having spent two posts pointing out "problems", I will now say that I utterly love this book. It's brilliant. Highly detailed, infinitely useful, there should be something in here for everyone.

BPorter |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

The Character background generator is excellent! Yesterday, I generated a new character for each of the CRB races and was very impressed with the diversity of characters generated. If a player or GM is ever stuck coming up with an idea for a character, this system is excellent for getting past the block. The incorporation of events granting access to traits is superb as well.
And for those wanting to let the dice determine alignment, the conflict resolution system presents some cool options as well.
Best lifepath/background generation system since Traveller!
This book continues to impress me. I strongly support more RPG books of this type that expand the game's scope in non-traditional ways. I like bestiaries, NPC guides, and crunch books just fine, but I think this book will become another trademark example of how Pathfinder has surpassed its predecessor.

JCServant |

I have to agree with you, BPorter. While everything in this book isn't a home run for me, a lot of it is. I appreciate the character background immensely as a great tool for helping those players who want a deep RP experience, but lack the creativity or time to make a background that's exciting or deep. While more crunchy rules have its place, having RP tools like this is priceless.