The Genius Guide to the Hellion (PFRPG) PDF

****½ (based on 3 ratings)

Our Price: $3.99

Add to Cart
Facebook Twitter Email

The hellion is a master of dark energies, especially afflictions and hexes, who draws his power from deals cut with one or more supernatural patrons. In many ways the hellion is a more martial version of the witch, sharing the witch’s power to draw on hexes and spells but with significantly more options (and inclination) to damage foes directly. What hellions give up in terms of more powerful hexes and spells they make up in greater skill in combat and special powers that have more stopping power than most witch abilities.

Hellions are often feared and hated by those who see them as universally evil and vicious. In all fairness, the powers of hellions do lend themselves to causing pain and misery, and many are just as cruel and spiteful as common wisdom suggests. But there is nothing in a hellion’s powers that intrinsically requires them to be malevolent or vile. A few strive to use their powers only to punish the wicked, while a much smaller fraction actively wish to avoid causing injury, but are burdened with the powers to do so as a result of deals made during a troubled youth.

Though good and noble hellions are rare (and even the most saintly tend to appear brutal and sadistic to a casual observer when accessing his powers for the defense of others), a few do exist. Many are driven by a desire to atone for deeds done when the hellion was younger, and more prone to lash out without considering the consequences or morality of his actions. Of course such hellions are often met with suspicion and bias, and more than one has become so angry at this injustice as to eventually slide back into a life of debauchery and violence.

Role: The role of a hellion is to deal damage to foes and reduce their effectiveness through the use of hexes and afflictions, but exactly how this is accomplished depends heavily on what options the hellion chooses. A hellion of a patron of bloodshed, who takes a scimitar as a bonded item, and chooses the metal fetish talent, is likely to serve as a secondary melee combatant supporting a more heavily armored front-line weapon wielder. A hellion of a patron of curses, who takes a wand as a bonded object, and takes the master of damnations talent, is more likely to avoid the front line and work to curse foes with spells to make them easier for his allies to defeat.

Product Availability

Fulfilled immediately.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

PZOPDFRGGOWC5204E


See Also:

Average product rating:

****½ (based on 3 ratings)

Sign in to create or edit a product review.

This is to the witch what the magus is to the wizard

*****

This pdf is 12 pages long, 2/3 of a page front cover, 1 page editorial/SRD, leaving us with 10 1/3 pages of content, so let's take a look at what the new Hellion-class is all about!

Mechanically, the hellion-class gets 3/4 BAB-progression, d8 4+Int skills per level, good fort and will-saves, can cast spells drawn from the witch's spell-list of up to 6th level via cha (thus, as a spontaneous caster) and gain proficiency with simple weapons and whips, saps, handaxes, flails, scimitar, short-swords and tridents. They also get proficiency with light armors and don't incur arcane spell failure while casting in light armor.

Hellions also get access to hexes (but cast them in contrast to their spells, via int) which they can choose from the witch's list, but in contrast to many other classes, the Hellion can't only wilder in the territory, but adds something new to the fray, i.e. a selection of 5 hexes that work differently: In contrast to witches hexes, hellions are more limited in the acquisition of hexes (since they have no familiars and can't form covens) and thus the new ones have a distinct feel: Where cursing others feels fairly straight-forward, as does a breath that is laced with disease and both scale with levels, it is the other three, more martially-inclined hexes that stand out: Where Pyre-blade allows Hellions to enhance weapons temporarily with fire is nice, the other two are what I'd consider interesting: Venomcall allows hellions to use poison in their possession as ranged touch attacks versus foes (regardless of usual manner of poison-type - even ingested poisons can be used that way) and Mark of Pain is perhaps the most interesting of the hexes: For a limited amount of rounds, the target of this curse-effect treats any damage as ongoing damage with regards to concentration checks etc., making this a great way of dealing with spellcasters.

Beyond hexes, hellions, like their witch-brethren, gain their powers from patrons, but in addition to the regular witch-patrons, they may also choose from one of 5 different new patrons: Bloodshed, Curses, Lycanthropy, Rage and Toxins. Combining these with SGG's latest Advanced Options-pdfs of Patron-exclusive hexes, the book also provides 5 new hexes exclusive to these new patrons, though if you don't like the idea of patron-exclusive hexes, you could still make them freely available. Let it be said that these 5 hexes are interesting: The Blood Shield e.g. grants temporary hit points when the hellion damages targets, while Fangs of the Wolf grant the Hellion the option to gain a bite attack and they may now also inflict the downsides of a barbarian's rage on targets, Hellions of the curse-patron may spitefully curse creatures as a reaction to dropping below 0 Hp, being turned to stone etc. - thankfully with the caveat of helplessness being at the GM's discretion, otherwise I could see groups constantly healing the hellion back up and spamming curse upon curse. The coolest hex, imho, though would be the one granted from the Toxin-patron: By swilling poison in your cheeks and spitting/blowing it back into the bottle, you may change the attribute the poison targets. Thankfully, the hex only works on a limited amount of poisons at a given time, thus limiting the flexibility of the hex in just the right way.

Hellions also get bonded objects tied to the patrons and require them to cast their patron-spells and even their other spells are greatly hampered sans this object, though it also allows the hellion 1/day to cast any one spell he knows, while sans metamagic/modifications, still a great last resort once the hellion runs out of spells. Now these items may be broken (though they do repair themselves when not completely destroyed) and enhanced with the appropriate crafting-feats as well as changed every couple of levels. Now bonded object modify what to expect from a hellion depending on the item-class: Amulets e.g. allow hellions to blast foes with ranged touch attacks of magic damage. Rings grant shield bonuses, staves allow for a bonus spell from either wizard or witch-list, wands allow the stored extra spell t be cast twice and weapons grant straight-forward bonuses to attack and damage.

Beyond even bonded objects and hexes, hellions may also choose from a list of 11 different hellion talents: If you want to enhance your hexes, you can improve your afflictions, choose a second patron (for patron hexes, second patron's spells are added to the list you choose spells from - you don't get a second array of patron spells) or do something really cool: If a foe saves versus your hex, you can use a swift action to change the target of the hex to a second creature. Now this sounds unblanaced, but the issue is: If the second foe also saves versus the hex, it then targets you instead! You can also enlarge and prolong hexes, cast them faster a limited amount of times etc. If you rather concentrate on the more martial aspects of the class, poison use, enhanced damage, atk and DCs for your hexes against foes currently suffering from an affliction and turn medium armors into fetishes, making your allegiance obvious, but also allowing you to ignore arcane spell failure chance while wearing it.

While Hellions don't get access to grand hexes, they do get access to a selection of major hexes as well, with 4 new ones thrown into the fray as well: One allows for access to a second bonded object, two increase the DC of saves versus his afflictions, and one allows the hellion to make afflictions spread to others. The hellion's capstone is deadly, adding a hex-effect of the hellion's choice to each of his spells.

The pdf closes with 5 new, neat curses hellions may use instead of the old ones and which should prove to be useful for other classes/purposes as well. It should be noted that if you use the variant spellpoint-rules by SGG, all information to use the hellion with these rules are also included.

Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are top-notch, I didn't notice any glitches. Layout adheres to SGG's 3-column landscape presentation and the pdf comes with extended nested bookmarks. The b/w-artworks do their job and as with any SGG-products, the file is sufficiently printer-friendly.

The Hellion is yet another gish-class and I didn't look forward to reading it - I figured we didn't need one. However, the focus and expansion on hex-mechanics makes the class feel rather fresh and creates a nice ability for the "sinister champion" type of hero with a burdened past. Hellions feel distinct, have interesting options and make viable and different supplemental fighters/casters who build nicely on afflictions and interesting options - all in all, a very well-crafted class that should enrich your game. If I had to complain about one thing, then that the major hexes are very tightly focused on afflictions and that I would have liked more of the martially-inclined hexes at this power-level. Also, be aware that this is NOT the magus and instead is perhaps a more subtle class by virtue of its hexes and spell-selection, so while you won't be as good a blaster, when handled right I think the hellion will allow for a nice variety of play-styles. All in all, an excellent class and easily worth my final verdict of 5 stars.

Endzeitgeist out.


A hell of a gish

****( )

I had said I would have made a new review on this bad boy, and I'm a man of my word. My original review should be in my first post in the discussion tab, and will be only there for posterity's sake. (I will however be copying some of the old review, namely the technical's :P )

The Hellion is Super Genius Games latest class, designed by Owen KC Stephens. The PDF that contains it spans 11 pages, with a 2 column per page. It contains a cover page, a credits page and an OGL License leaving about 9.5 pages for content. There are little no to editing errors, and a bunch of black and white art. The fluff is great for this, covering the archetypical "Messed around with Dark arts by accident/possibly on purpose" youth, which isn't covered by any of the core classes.

The Hellion is a D8 Hit Die class with a 3/4th's BAB and a good Will and Fort save. It has medium spell casting progression, very similar to the Bard/Inquisitor/Magus, it has 4 skills + int mod per level, a general wizard-esq pool of class skills and starts out with 5d6 worth of gold. It has it's own set of weapons it's proficient with, containing all simple weapons, the hand axe, flail, sap, scimitar, short sword, trident and whip, which is a very interesting and flavorful weapon set, seeming very brutal. It is proficient with light armor and doesn't incur the normal arcane spell failure in it.

For features this this, let's start with my absolute favorite feature in it, which would be the Bonded Object. I have to tip my hat to Super Genius Games, usually people just see bonded objects as a burden, but this makes it's a boon. Making your bonded object as a weapon will make it hit harder and more often, or making it a ring will let you make a shield of force every round as a swift action. Want to more of a casting style one? Take a Wand and you're casting an extra spell off of it. A staff? Have a spell from a completely different list. Beautiful evolution of a a mechanic that's can end up being a scary drawback.

It gets the same spell list as the Witch, except only the first 6 levels of it. It's a little aggravating as it doesn't get any juicer spells later on, but with more stuff coming out for the witch, it's spell list would be upgraded a bit more. I do feel it could have some Hellion specific spells, but yeah. It also gets Patrons (again, similar to a Witch), with a cut down list to only contain 6th level spells. It uses CHA to cast, which is very fitting, since someone who didn't realize what they were getting into wouldn't be casting from INT, and definitely not WIS

It gets hexes like a Witch, eventually getting Major hexes. It has access to all of the witches hexes that don't deal with covens or familiars. It also has a few hexes of it's own (and of course the more content you own for hexes, the more they'll have, the beauty of OGL), such as being able to breathe diseases on others, curse them, or even positive effects like lighting up allies weapons, giving them an extra d6 of fire damage. Sadly some of these fall flat due to the fact that they sometimes quite under powered. I absolutely LOVE the idea of Pyre Blade, but unless you're going to be using it on someone else, it only lasts one round, eventually going up. Some of the other Patron hexes, like the Blood Shield are really cool, but again fall flat in the regard that they are a little weak. The Hellion uses INT to judge the DC's of it's hexes, make it it slightly Multi-Ability Score Dependent (Shorted down to MAD), where it wouldn't exactly need to be. I'm also not a huge fan of the fact that it can never upgrade to Grand Hexes and get's major hexes wayyy late (16th level).

It also get's abilities called Hellion talents. They come at every third level after second. They are usually passive, sometimes active abilities that can either augment your hexes or martial abilities. Some of these are REALLY cool, like the ability to have your hexes as a swift action per day equal to cha mod, or trying a failed hex on someone else.... but having a chance for it to effect yourself. The ability to play with fire like that REALLY contributes to the flavor of the class.

Its Capstone is Hellex, which says whenever anyone fails a spell's saving throw that they cast, the Hellion can add a hex onto it that they automatically fail. Really cool ability, that does stack up against other capstones. There are new curses listed in the PDF as well, for GM's or particularly devious Hellion's to use (or visa versa!). My favorite being either Obscene Utterances or Filchers Curse.

The role I see this class fitting in, of course, is the support caster role. It's very interesting to see where it fits in its specific role, that being it's not only able to go melee if the situation calls for it, but instead of bolstering the party purely, or novaing, it finds ways to make the enemy squirm, to the point of a lack of usefulness, then buffing it's allies to finishing them off.

I am very in between with the Hellion. I like the class and the flavor of it alot, and it's obviously a well made class. I feel like it could use a touch of buffs here and there, but all and all, this is a well designed class. It has some very very sexy parts, specifically the Hellion Talents and the Bonded Object it can get. I love the original content that was thrown in, and it's a very fun class to play from a roleplaying perspective.

This Class get's 3.5 stars, rounded up to a 4 for this.


Best SG class yet

*****

I love this class. LOVE it. This is probably the best put-together class I've seen yet from SGG (and if you've read the Time Thief, you know that's quite a compliment). Despite using a number of ideas from previous classes (notably hexes and bonded objects), this core class comes across as fresh and different.

Basically, it's a substantially modified witch, but the flavor has been perfectly balanced with the mechanics. This is the witch's magus, but with a more instintive grasp of the background so missing in the magus, which, despite filling a need, always fealt like a rather bland fantasy trope to me. Here we have a more aggressive witch, with new unique hexes and patrons that reflect this violence. With a medium BAB and spontaneous casting on the inquisitor spell track, plus limited armor and weapon use, the Hellion is a lot more competent in combat (although perhaps not to the level of the magus - it's not geared to pure gish mechanics). There are also additional special talents accessible to the Hellion that manage to stand apart from the hexes as distinctively shifting the class's focus and abilities rather than simply giving you a spell-like or supernatural at-will spell.

I've not done a thorough read through, but I wanted to give my initial impressions. If you like the witch, or even just anti-heroes, this will be a product you want to pick up. SGG has proven once again that they really understand how to marry crunch with fluff, and produce something which is fulfilling to roleplay and rollplay simultaneously.



This product needs a post...because it sounds awesome.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm looking over my copy from Dungeon-A-Day right now and I have to say, this is interesting. Spells per day as per a Bard, but uses the Witch spell list... Hexes at 1st, 3rd, 6th, and every 3 class levels thereafter, but the save DCs are still Int-based. (Owen, is that an error, or intentional?) No access to hexes that talk about hags or covens...

Cheapy, I'll need more time to review and reflect, but yeah, it looks awesome to me.

Sczarni

I need to ask, how different would this play to a hexcrafter Magus? Is it closer to a 3.5 hexblade or warlock?


In my shopping cart! As the author of the Gauntlet Witch in KQ's final issue, and as I loved the Malefactor, I'm really looking forward to taking a look at this - I'm busy working on two similar concepts - the Direlock - a kind of Inquisitor/Magus/Witch hybrid and an Alternate Witch base Class - the Witchsoldier that drops spellcasting and familiar completely in favor of, you guessed it, better armor and weapons but also better BAB and HD (I know tinkering with a base class' HD and BAB won't go down well with some folk - but it doesn't seem different enough from a witch to be its own base class, and the magus leaves me a bit cold also.
I did think of making the Direlock a witchy Alternate Magus base Class a la Hexcrafter, but it is different enough to warran it's own Base class. I'm glad to see the Hellion leaves me some creative room by using Bonded Items. Happily I never considered that. Phew!
Can't wait to see this and any archetypes...


Yeah I picked this up and the Hellfire Magic book from SGG as well my group is going to cringe when they see my next Pitborn Teifling :)

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Frerezar wrote:
I need to ask, how different would this play to a hexcrafter Magus? Is it closer to a 3.5 hexblade or warlock?

There will be some fairly significant differences due to the spell lists alone. Magi focus on a lot of direct damage and self-buffing spells, and Hellions use the Witch's list, focused on buffs, debuffs, healing, and only then damage dealing.


Realmwalker wrote:
Yeah I picked this up and the Hellfire Magic book from SGG as well my group is going to cringe when they see my next Pitborn Teifling :)

Got a link to the "Hellfire Magic" book, Realmwalker?

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hellfire Magic, another of the better SGG releases. There's also a Bullet Point with 5 Hellfire Feats as well.


Thanks Kvantum!!!


Having just read this and then the S15, I'm quite curious to see what was grabbed from Halflings of Golarion


Wrote a review on this, a huge fan of it though :)

Original Review:
Original title: Very interesting class suffering from slight editing errors/being underpowered

The Hellion is Super Genius Games latest class, designed by Owen KC Stephens. The PDF that contains it spans 11 pages, with a 2 column per page. It contains a cover page, a credits page and an OGL License leaving about 9.5 pages for content. Onto the Crunch!

The Hellion is a D8 Hit Die class with a 3/4th's BAB and a good Will and Fort save. It has medium spell casting progression, very similar to the Bard/Inquisitor/Magus, it has 4 skills + int mod per level, a general wizard-esq pool of class skills and starts out with 5d6 worth of gold. It has it's own set of weapons it's proficient with, containing all simple weapons, the hand axe, flail, sap, scimitar, short sword, trident and whip, which is a very interesting and flavorful weapon set, seeming very brutal. It is proficient with light armor and doesn't incur the normal arcane spell failure in it. It can take a Hellion Talent (we'll get into those later) that allows it to ignore the Arcane Spell Failure but doesn't give it medium armor proficiency. Assuming that's a bit of a text error, which this is the first of many.

It's spell casting is very interesting as it contains the spells and patrons of the witch but follows a much slower progression. This sadly does not give it access to stronger spells like the other Half Casters get. I'd have preferred if it got its own spell casting list/was able to use witch and patron's to get higher level spells, leaving it the option to take much stronger spells if it wanted. Also; at a point, it refers to the class as the Sorcerer (At each new sorcerer level).

It gets a Bonded Object like a wizard. I really really enjoy what they did with the Bonded Object, allowing you to get a benefit depending on what you decide to make your bonded object. It gives a flavorful reason to choose what you use as your bonded object, and if you lose it, you can't get your spells, very similar to a witches familiar/it's almost impossible for you to cast spells (DC20+spell's level just like a wizards). A flavorful way for a GM to light a fire under the players to get them going.

The main draw to the Hellion is of course, the Hexes. It gets Hexes at every other level like the Witch. It has a few unique hexes to itself, the most notable being Execration. It at 15th (!) can eventually take a Major hexes and completely skips out on Grand Hexes. It makes me sad because there aren't any Unique or Major Hexes to it. As another user mentioned, it uses INT for it's hex DC's, but I'm assuming that's an error as it'd make it pretty MAD, Also, on the Table: Hellion, it mentions Major Hex, but doesn't make any mention of it, which is an error I'm assuming.

The most unique feature to the Hellion, is their Hellion Talents, which are various abilities that enhance various parts about them. Depending on the Hellion Talent you take, you can be using medium armor, or doing more damage to cursed enemies. Very cool and very flavorful. The only fault I have with them, is that there isn't a feat to take extra ones. Also on the Table, it mentions something called “Hellion Power” which isn't mentioned again.

I'll admit that the name Hellion Talent sounds kind of lame, it makes sense for the Rogue's abilities to be called Rogue talents, but the Hellions? I'd prefer something else, but that's just me.

The Capstone Ability for the Hellion, the Hellex is REALLY cool. Whenever someone fails a save on a spell of yours, you can use a Hex on them for free. Flavorful and super cool. A little “Win More”, but still very cool, especially as the strongest it gets are 6th level spells.

Of course the Hellion would draw comparisons to another Class with a (somewhat) similar ability, the Hexcrafter Magus. As it's direct competitor pretty much, the Hexcrafter has much more in the way of options as it's able to take Major Hexes much earlier, and eventually Grand Hexes. All in all, the Hellion has wayyy less juice then Hexcrafter.

In my own opinion with years and years of game developing experience*, I'd suggest to allow the Hellion to take Hellion Talents as feats, and instead of getting Major Hexes at 15th, allow them to get them at 11th (needing to blow a feat on them to get them before the Hexcrafter), allowing them to still be behind the witch in that regard, but still the second best at them. Giving them Grand Hexes as an option I wouldn't think was too bad either, but maybe I'm biased as well. Also; allowing Hellions to take Hellion talents with feats would be cool too.

All in all, this a very flavorful class, with a bit of a power problem. I love the flavor of it, and I love the abilities it gets (the Devious Hex would be something I would always be using, and getting super mad when ever it happened to me), but it just lacks the punch of similar classes. If it were to get a bit of a juice and the text errors, this would be bumped up to a 5, as it stands, it's a 2.5 lowered to a two.

*I have never ever worked on a game, ever.

Edit:
While I am keeping the original review up (For posterity's sake), Owen KC Stephens has commented on various issues, putting the Kibosh on most if not all of my concerns. Bumping the star review to 4, possible a 5 when the new version comes out so I can totally review it :)


Cool review Rubber Block. Just gonna get it now and take a look for myself...


I just noticed this in the Hellion's section on Hexes:

The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the hellion’s level +
the hellion’s Intelligence modifier.

I'm guessing that's just someone cut & pasting from the Witch and forgetting to change Intelligence to Charisma? Hopefully someone from SGG will drop in here and say so.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sgg has used dual ability scores as balance before

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's interesting that I just can't generally predict what's going to be popular quickly, what is going to be a dud, and what its going to have long-term legs. this thread got a lot more attention in a few days that I expected!

There's a revised version of the hellion waiting to go live. I didn't finish the revisions until it was the weekend, so no one is going to see it until Monday -- I have partners out camping beyond realistic connectivity range and Paizo won't be back in the office until then anyway. Obviously anyone who already has this will get the update for free and (with one exception that turns my face quite red) they are all minor changes.

Point-by-point:

The reference to a hellion power on the class table should be a hellion talent – I had a change of heart partway through the design and decided to use the talent mechanism, and for some reason missed a single reference to it. The description of hellion talents would give you one at 17th so there’s information missing, just a one-word editorial error.

The references to sorcerers is a cut-and-paste error, and a fairly amateur one on my part. I like to use the same language for the same information whenever possible, but I should have caught this.

The entire section on hellion major hexes someone got cut before I sent the text to editing. That’s pretty annoying, and its the one thing that's really embarrassing, and it’s entirely on me. That’s missing info, and it’s the one error I consider a major mistake.

All those issues are fixed with the revised pdf, and everyone who bought the old pdf gets this update for free.

There are also some things that aren’t mistakes, just design choices someone might not agree with.

The fact the metal fetish talent doesn’t include proficiency with medium armor is an intentional choice. This is largely because a hellion could take it as soon as 2nd level, and a hellion who is combat-oriented really needs to be paying a feat for access that early or he can be *overpowered*. For example, a weapon-bond hellion (who has the same attack bonus with his bonded weapon as a fighter of the same level) in medium armor who takes the bloodshed patron and the blood shield hex is a powerful front-line combatant… he doesn’t need to have a free feat on top of that. Normally a talent is about on par with a feat, and Medium Weapon Proficiency is already a feat in itself. Further, metal fetish as a talent is already more powerful than Arcane Armor training. Allowing a single talent to be more-than-twice-as-powerful as a feat is too much.

While the hellion using the witch spell chart means it doesn’t get a small number of thematically appropriate higher-level spells at lower levels like the bard, inquisitor, and summoner so, it also means A: The hellion’s spell list automatically expands as the witch’s list expands (so the class never lacks for new options as new spells are put out), a: The hellion has a broader range of spell options than those classes (the witch spell list has 75 spells just looking at the core books… inquisitors have 67, magi 55, and summoners have 35 – the bard has more, but a quick glance will show its options are more closely grouped than a witches).

The magus is a good example here – while it may have a few spells its gets at a lower spell level than a wizard, most of its solid spells (baleful polymorph, cone of cold, overland flight, fire snake, telekinesis) are at the same level as for wizards.

Further, if a hellion wants to take some more spell oomph he should take the staff implement, allowing him to have a bonus spell known as any witch or wizard spell of a level he can cast. That allows a spell-themed hellion to select fireball if he wishes – a directly offensive spell witches never get.

Having the Hellion hex DC be based on Int is also a design choice. A hellion can get by just fine selecting only hexes that have no saves, so MAD can be completely avoided. There are many options for a hellion to boost the save DC of those hexes in keeping with his afflictions theme so those can be on par even with a lower Int. Of course if a hellion wishes to pump In the can do so, but then he can’t also pump Str for use with weapons and pump Cha for spells.

That’s all intentional. A hellion shouldn’t be able to fight as well as a fighter, cast as well as a wizard, and have hexes as powerful as a witch. By keeping the hex on Int (which is its normal mechanic), a hellion may choose to be a warrior with tricks (many of which can avoid saves altogether – a hellion with pyre blade, venomcall, flight and healing gets LOTS of use out of his hexes and doesn’t care what his Int is), a caster (though one with good weapon and special abilities as back up, in keeping with things like the bard with performance as back up), or a buff/debuff-master (stacking good Int modifier with the affliction-specific bonuses and talents he can get, but this time with weapons and spells as back-up).

There are plenty of examples of classes who have spells based on one ability score and special powers based on another. A cleric's spellcasting is based on Wis, but channel energy is based on Cha.Rangers are Wisdom casters, and a lot of their skills are Wisdom based, but Wild Empathy works off Cha. Not all classes have synergy between their abilities either -- an alchemist needs Int for extracts and bombs, but gets Str, Dex, and con from a mutagen.

When looking at the question of what ability score to base a power on, an important question is if the class needs everything tied to one score in order to remain competitive. A hellion who can easily maximize all three options into effective offense is actually overpowered. Similarly, given a hellion has more hit points, skill points, attack bonus, and direct-offense options than a witch, not to mention talents that do things like extend ranges and add reuses, I think it’s a bad idea for them to get the same levels of upgraded hexes at the same time the witch does. At that point, all a witch would have going for it is 7th-9th level spells (which are nice, but especially for the witch not why you play the class). A hellion is designed to do more with the hexes he has, and he can, and that’s why he doesn’t need as many, or as power a set of hexes.

In playtesting, hellions with this build are very competitive with core classes. While we “Err on the side of awesome,” I never want a GM to feel a SGG class invalidates one of the standard Paizo classes.

Other design choices are more judgment calls, and a GM can easily make changes if he wishes. I prefer for talents to give bonus feats and not feats give bonus talents, but I know rogues have feats that do so. If a GM wants to add Extra Hellion Talent its easy to do so… but it also means the hellions can really spread into more areas and overlap with more other characters. I wanted a hellion to be able to back up several roles or fill one, not fill multiple roles at once.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Frerezar wrote:
I need to ask, how different would this play to a hexcrafter Magus? Is it closer to a 3.5 hexblade or warlock?

That's an entirely fair question, and it's a tricky one to answer.

The hexcrafter (basically) picks up the option of taking hexes in place of magus arcana, and adds some curse spells to his list. At its core it still plays like a magus, with no way to really synergize its hexes and spells.

The hellion is an offensive witch, someone seeped in the powers of affliction and able to blend curse, hex, and spell. They receive a patron (and have options for more violent patrons), pick up a bonded object rather than a familiar (and gain special powers based on the object they choose), and have a wide range of affliction and hex modifying talents. While you can say a hellion is the magus version of a witch (and that's fair), I honestly think of them as the inquisitor version of the witch. Or, rather, as inquisitor is to oracle, hellion is to witch.

Again, only roughly.

Exactly how a hellion plays is going to depend a lot on the choices they make. The choice of patron and bonded object have a vast impact on how a hellion plays, and its very easy to have two hellions with very different options, tactics, and roles within the party. A hellion who selects a bonded weapon, a patron of rage and the devious hex talent is a wild force for chaotic damage and effects. A hellion who selects a bonded staff, a patron of elements and a the dark pacts talent to also take a bonded wand is a more traditional offensive spellcaster.


Wow, didn't expect to see a response so soon! Thank you for the timely response, haha. Again a huge fan of the class, to not completely blast it down, of course. I'm a bit of an optimizer myself but I'd like for a class to not be overpowered as well. I did change the rating mid course which I will fully admit too, but that was after much more reading/ideas.

For the minor text errors very good to know they are just little mistakes instead of something completely wrong. I know the feeling with the Sorcerer error, as I've made similar errors myself in making some homebrew content. I do prefer the name Hellion Powers, but I might be in the minority for that as well :P

As far as it goes with a few other points;

I can fully understand the issue with making the Metal Fetish take an extra level. I didn't even think of comparing it to Arcane Armor Training (which uses wayyy more action economy), but like you said, it seems like it'd be fair at that point. I didn't even think of it like that, so thanks for putting it in a way I could understand :)

The issue with the MAD is that consider the Hexcrafter, in some cases (Hello Dervish Dance), it can only dependent on two abilities (though in Dervish Dance I think that was the mistake). Since it has the uses the Witches spell list, for most cases unless it's using CHA dependent spells (see; anything with saves), it can get away with not exactly dumping CHA, but having it at 16 for the maximum (which I guess magic items can supplement). Also, you make the exact same error as my GM, the Paladin uses CHA for it's casting now :P. All joking aside, I do understand what you mean, though it does feel like an Alchemist would moreso go against your point, as it allows those stats while suffering to still be relevant, allowing it to "nova" as a non spellcaster/make the ones that aren't even better (see; Vivisectionist).

I can understand if you wouldn't want it to outpace the witch in hexes (a very very real concern), however I feel like it should at the very least outpace the Hexcrafter in it, being the main reason I suggested for it to receive Major Hexes at a certain level. Of course if it outpaces the Witch (though really I feel like the witch transitions from Buffer/Debuffer > full spell casting god very well) that wouldn't be very good. At the level it'd be learning Major hexes, a Witch would have been freezing people solid for 5 levels (which is fine), and a Hexcrafter for 3. This issue might just be Paizo's error however, nobody is perfect :)

However though, I think giving it a few exclusive spells wouldn't be too bad. As a buffer/debuffer, I'm sure it'd LOVE something like an Arcane Form of Doom or something to that effect. At the same time, giving it it's own spell list would have alot more work required (and alot more updating, which must be VERY hard considering how many classes SGG has made), so again I can understand it.

I am rather curious how it fared against a Hexcrafter Magus in playtesting, it feels like it'd be slightly behind as the Magus can do the same amount of hexes (I guess total if they used their feat to take a hex at EVERY POSSIBLE level, the Hexcrafter would have a total of one less), but didn't have the Magus kit to fall back on in case of "oops". It of course not being as good at hexes, as well.

I suppose the builds you were testing were different from the one I'm imagining too, mine being more of a "Misfortune/Evil Eye/Cackle Swing" build vs more specialties.

I'm very very glad to have a response to this in such a timely fashion. Very classy from the developers/everyone. I can't wait to see the exclusive Major Hexes, and I'm absolutely sure they'll wow me :)


Fantastic replies Owen. Your discussion on MAD was most enlightening.


Also; while I'd hate to post again about something inane, I'd feel like I need to mention that the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype for the Witch allows it to use CON as it's modifier for it's hexes as well when they are changed. So while I do agree that it shouldn't be able to do all those things as well, I'd just like to add that I don't think it can ever cast as well as a wizard due to the fact that it's a half caster. Hell, the Magus itself can't for that reason, along with the fact that it's at a much slower spell casting track (getting it further away from the Wizard/less spells per day not counting the arcane pool.).

Again, I'm extremely sorry about bothering you with all of this, I just suppose these are observations I'm just making is all :)

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

No, of course you are right a hellion can't cast as well as a wizard. Imagine if they could! A 3/4 BAB, medium armor-wearing, hex-slinging, d8 hit point having, bonus-patron-spell having wizard? The class would rightly be decried as ridiculously overpowered.

But a hellion can fill an offensive-caster position, if it specializes in doing so. It just does so differently, as druids or magi do when they fill that role. At low levels it's easy -- the hellion focuses on Cha, takes the staff bonded object, the elemental patron, and selects magic missile as his bonus spell known. He can cast that a few times per day, and depend on hexes and physical armor to replace utility spells and mage armor or shield.

At mid levels its trickier, but still doable. The ability to count on hexes for things like disguise, feral speech, flight and even healing continue to let him focus almost all of his spell power on offense, unlike a wizard who must have a balanced selection of spells. In addition to damaging spells the hellion now needs to maximize his ability to boost affliction effects. If he wants to use poisons and spells, venomcall and the toxin patron (and its hex, transform poison) let him tailor poisons to lower the ability scores of foes so their saves go down, along with the affliction focus, maleficent, and malevolent that make those afflicted more vulnerable to his magic. Suddenly he doesn't need higher-level spells like a wizard -- he just shoots poison at foes to lower their Wisdom, then hits them with a save-or-lose witch spell with a Will save while they are at penalties both for the reduced stats and for his talents. All without ever depending on a hex that allows a save.

Similar choices allow the hellion the fill other roles if he wishes to focus on them. Alternatively, a hellion can create a balanced build to support multiple roles. Even if his hex saves aren't as high as a witch of the same level he can still use his talents to lower foe's saves against him, and be successful as often. Or, he can lean on things like devious hexes, enduring hexes, flash hexes, and malediction (from the curses patron) to get more use out of his hexes even if foes save against them more often.

The balance of a flexible class, one able to fill different roles depending on what choices it makes (the oracle is another good example of this) is very complex. You can;t just look at one aspect of the class and compare it to what other, less-flexible classes get at the same level. You must consider all the possible builds the class can support, and see if they are, overall, effective and balanced.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Fantastic replies Owen. Your discussion on MAD was most enlightening.

I am very glad you enjoyed it!

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Rubber Block wrote:
Wow, didn't expect to see a response so soon! Thank you for the timely response, haha.

I don't always get to a comment the same day but when I do...

...actually I don't have a good way to end that gag. :)

Rubber Block wrote:
I do prefer the name Hellion Powers, but I might be in the minority for that as well :P

I prefer the sound of it too, which is why it's what I originally called them., But conceptually, they work the same way as, and should have the same power level as, the talents used by other classes. By calling them talents, I pass that conceptual information along to GMs without needing to write another sidebar. So, I changed it.

Rubber Block wrote:
Also, you make the exact same error as my GM, the Paladin uses CHA for it's casting now :P.

Dang it, I thought I caught that. Yes, that kind of error is what happens when you have 7 versions of the same basic rules floating around in your head.

Even so, a Paladin can't be effective if he just pumps Cha. Paladins need Str or Dex (depending on a melee or ranged build), and often draw aggro so they really need Con. A solid build is going to try to get high scores in three abilities... and it's good thing too. Can you imagine what would happen if spellcasting, smite evil, and divine grace all ran off Strength?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just finished reading the reviews & product description on this & it looks very exciting. I can all but guarantee I will be picking it up as soon as finances permit.
Had two thoughts; had you considered referring to the class feature as Patron Gifts rather than Hellion Talents? It is a minor point but it might further emphasize the fact that Hellions, like Witches derive their abilities from an other, otherworldly entity.
The second point; I've been a big fan of the 'White-Haired Witch' wuxia concept & was rather disappointed with the Archetype when it came out in the Dragon Empires Primer. How difficult would it be to re-skin that Archetype for the Hellion, given that from what I've read so far it seems the Hellion shores up a number of the weak-points the concept has a Witch Archetype?

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
The second point; I've been a big fan of the 'White-Haired Witch' wuxia concept & was rather disappointed with the Archetype when it came out in the Dragon Empires Primer. How difficult would it be to re-skin that Archetype for the Hellion, given that from what I've read so far it seems the Hellion shores up a number of the weak-points the concept has a Witch Archetype?

From my guess, it would seem a natural fit. You'd give up the smae number of hexes, but you'd gain your abilities with your hair at a slower rate, Constrict at 3rd class level, Trip at 6th, Pull at 9th, and Strangle at 12th, and then a pair of Rogue talents at 15th and 18th class level.

The question would be what to do in place of the 20th class level Capstone, Hellex. Maybe allow a White-Haired Hellion to cast any Hellion spell with a casting time of a standard action as a swift action upon successfully grappling a target with your hair, though the spell would have to include the creature grappled by your hair amongst its targets. You might give a free Advanced Rogue talent instead.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

I think Kvantum's suggestions are perfectly reasonable and workable. I'd allow that character into my home campaigns.

If I was rewriting the archetype from scratch, I think I would actually be inclined to leave a white-haired hellion with his hexes, add the rogue talents to things he could select as hellion talents, and reduce his spellcasting to be on par with a ranger or paladin's spells-per day (and use the same numbers +1 as spells known). I think a white-haired hellion with hair attacks and hexes, but very limited spells, is more interesting than one with spells but no hexes... and it's both balanced and lets us leave hellex alone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

I think Kvantum's suggestions are perfectly reasonable and workable. I'd allow that character into my home campaigns.

If I was rewriting the archetype from scratch, I think I would actually be inclined to leave a white-haired hellion with his hexes, add the rogue talents to things he could select as hellion talents, and reduce his spellcasting to be on par with a ranger or paladin's spells-per day (and use the same numbers +1 as spells known). I think a white-haired hellion with hair attacks and hexes, but very limited spells, is more interesting than one with spells but no hexes... and it's both balanced and lets us leave hellex alone.

That is sounding more & more like it's own class. Which in & of itself isn't necessarily a Bad thing...

Just more than I was wanting to contemplate.

Gah! Did you guys drop the price? I just checked your other Class offerings & it looks like you have reduced the price on several if not all of them.

Edit: Another question; what was your reasoning for requiring the bonded object to be a bonded object, rather than a familiar? Or rather, why not allow Hellions the possibility of a Familiar bond rather than an object bond?

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

That is sounding more & more like it's own class. Which in & of itself isn't necessarily a Bad thing...

Just more than I was wanting to contemplate.

fair enough. I prefer archetypes to either be very simple ability-swaps, or practicaslly create new classes.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Gah! Did you guys drop the price? I just checked your other Class offerings & it looks like you have reduced the price on several if not all of them.

Pricing is a complex issue for us, that takes into account art costs, product length, % of repurposed material, time to complete, market conditions, and expected sales.

When going through that calculation in this case, the dart hit the "$2.99" space on the dartboard.

Honestly, we keep looking at raising our $2.99 prices to $3.99, and we may do it someday. But the timing never seems quite right.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Edit: Another question; what was your reasoning for requiring the bonded object to be a bonded object, rather than a familiar? Or rather, why not allow Hellions the possibility of a Familiar bond rather than an object bond?

There are two primary reasons, or maybe two-hand-a-half.

The first is distinctive identity. Despite borrowing the witch's spell list and main class feature (hexes), the hellion isn't just a witch with a better BAB. It has talents and its own hexes that set it apart, in both play-feel and potential role. Having it take a different patron-granted option than a witch helps reinforce that, much as witches are different from wizards because they don't get to choose between bonded object and familiar.

Second, thematically I was very satisfied with how the different special powers a hellion gets from various bonded objects works. I liked that a hellion with a bonded weapon was a better combatant, a hellion with a bonded ring has more protection, and a hellion with a bonded staff has a broader range of spell options. I filled those game-mechanical roles I found the most relevant and would lead to the most interesting support of roleplaying... and I didn't see any need to add more with special familiar powers.

And here's the half reason. What powers would I give? Since bonded objects and familiars are equal-by-canon, and hellions get bonded objects with extra powers, clearly they'd need familiar powers too. But what? And is it one power no matter what familiar you took, or a different power for each familiar? (And wouldn't that be a nightmarishly long and complex list for something that players are only ever going to use one or per character?)

So between wanting to keep a strong thematic distinction, being happy with the mechanical and rp results of what I had, not not entirely liking the add-ons I was playing around with, I decided this was a case where less-was-more and didn't add familiars just to add them.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

I *believe* the revised version of this with the new major hexes is up now.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I somehow missed this when it first came out, but I caught it now. And i have to say I really like it. I am strongly considering talking to my dm about changing my hexcrafter magus who has the jinxed casting talent from your magus options pdf into a hellion. Would be an interesting contrast with the paladin i am going to be playing in an upcomming jade regent campaign that will run parallel.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Kolokotroni wrote:
So I somehow missed this when it first came out, but I caught it now. And i have to say I really like it. I am strongly considering talking to my dm about changing my hexcrafter magus who has the jinxed casting talent from your magus options pdf into a hellion. Would be an interesting contrast with the paladin i am going to be playing in an upcomming jade regent campaign that will run parallel.

I'm glad we got your attention! And yeah, hellion and paladin would make for some rp whiplash. :)


And reviewed here, on d20pfsrd's shop, dtrpg and sent to GMS magazine.

Cheers!

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

As always, many thanks for the review!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Rubber Block wrote:
Wow, didn't expect to see a response so soon! Thank you for the timely response, haha.

I don't always get to a comment the same day but when I do...

....He errs on the side of awesome

Finished it for you. :)

Now I've got another product of yours to buy. ;)

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

havoc xiii wrote:
Rubber Block wrote:
Wow, didn't expect to see a response so soon! Thank you for the timely response, haha.

I don't always get to a comment the same day but when I do...

....He errs on the side of awesome

Well we DO have this motto and all. :)

havoc xiii wrote:
Now I've got another product of yours to buy. ;)

I look forward to your thoughts.


Before I ask my question I would like to say that the hellion is an excellent class! It just so happens that I needed some warriors which dabbled in the dark arts and the hellion fits the bill perfectly.

Anyhoo, on to my question. The Pyre Blade hex seems a bit meh as it now. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts for 1 round (increasing to 3 rounds at higher levels). It would have made more sense that the ability is activated as a swift action so that the hellion can utilize the ability themselves. I am aware of the Flash Hexes hellion talent, however. Instead of having to take a talent to fix the issue I would rather revise the ability itself to make it a bit more useful out of the box. Due to this I was thinking about changing the activation to a swift action or changing the duration to 1 round per level. This would increase to 1 minute per level at 8th level and 1 hour per level at 16th level. Would either of these changes make the ability unbalanced?

Cheers
Volf

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Volvogg wrote:

Before I ask my question I would like to say that the hellion is an excellent class! It just so happens that I needed some warriors which dabbled in the dark arts and the hellion fits the bill perfectly.

Anyhoo, on to my question. The Pyre Blade hex seems a bit meh as it now. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts for 1 round (increasing to 3 rounds at higher levels). It would have made more sense that the ability is activated as a swift action so that the hellion can utilize the ability themselves. I am aware of the Flash Hexes hellion talent, however. Instead of having to take a talent to fix the issue I would rather revise the ability itself to make it a bit more useful out of the box. Due to this I was thinking about changing the activation to a swift action or changing the duration to 1 round per level. This would increase to 1 minute per level at 8th level and 1 hour per level at 16th level. Would either of these changes make the ability unbalanced?

Cheers
Volf

Honestly, probably not. When I was playtesting I think a lot of playtesters were still hooked on the idea that hellions are a form of witch, and witches tend not to have offensive spells, so I was getting a lot of concern over the offensive choices.

I obviously balanced that with my own experience and playtests... but I may have gone too conservative on this one. The ability to give other creatures a damage boost can be pretty meaty, and there's no daily limit, but there is a practical limit, so...

I dunno if I'll make a formal change in a revision, but if you feel you need to boost it up to meet your playstyle, I don't expect that'll do any harm.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Volvogg wrote:

Before I ask my question I would like to say that the hellion is an excellent class! It just so happens that I needed some warriors which dabbled in the dark arts and the hellion fits the bill perfectly.

Anyhoo, on to my question. The Pyre Blade hex seems a bit meh as it now. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts for 1 round (increasing to 3 rounds at higher levels). It would have made more sense that the ability is activated as a swift action so that the hellion can utilize the ability themselves. I am aware of the Flash Hexes hellion talent, however. Instead of having to take a talent to fix the issue I would rather revise the ability itself to make it a bit more useful out of the box. Due to this I was thinking about changing the activation to a swift action or changing the duration to 1 round per level. This would increase to 1 minute per level at 8th level and 1 hour per level at 16th level. Would either of these changes make the ability unbalanced?

Cheers
Volf

Honestly, probably not. When I was playtesting I think a lot of playtesters were still hooked on the idea that hellions are a form of witch, and witches tend not to have offensive spells, so I was getting a lot of concern over the offensive choices.

I obviously balanced that with my own experience and playtests... but I may have gone too conservative on this one. The ability to give other creatures a damage boost can be pretty meaty, and there's no daily limit, but there is a practical limit, so...

I dunno if I'll make a formal change in a revision, but if you feel you need to boost it up to meet your playstyle, I don't expect that'll do any harm.

Thanks for the reply. It's greatly appreciated! I agree that the ability to grant a damage boost to your allies is a potentially powerful option. Although in this instance I believe, due to the constraints in place, that there is no need to worry about it being to good. This is the reason why I am going to tweak it in my game. My choice doesn't really have anything to do with my own playstyle so much as an attempt at making the power worth actually taking. The other option I was toying with was leaving it as is but also adding in the following: the flaming burst property at level 8 and the ability to set a target on fire at level 16 as if struck by alchemist's fire.

Cheers
Volf


I updated my review to be more recent, since it's been improved since then :)

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Many thanks for the updated review!


Has there been a followup to this product yet?

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Has there been a followup to this product yet?

Nope.

You looking for anything in particular? :)


More hexes of all levels, maybe some archetypes. I love this class and it's about to make its debut in my homebrew very soon.

Silver Crusade

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

I think Kvantum's suggestions are perfectly reasonable and workable. I'd allow that character into my home campaigns.

If I was rewriting the archetype from scratch, I think I would actually be inclined to leave a white-haired hellion with his hexes, add the rogue talents to things he could select as hellion talents, and reduce his spellcasting to be on par with a ranger or paladin's spells-per day (and use the same numbers +1 as spells known). I think a white-haired hellion with hair attacks and hexes, but very limited spells, is more interesting than one with spells but no hexes... and it's both balanced and lets us leave hellex alone.

Saw this and decided to take a stab at making a White-Haired Hellion archetype, as I too am a fan of the wuxia trope. It's just crunch, no fluff and my first attempt at doing something like this. Thought I'd post a copy here, so take a look and tell me what you guys think....

White-Haired Hellion:

White Hair (Su) At 1st level, a white-haired hellion gains the ability to use his hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small hellion) plus the hellion’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the hellion can attempt to grapple that foe with his hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using his Intelligence modifier in place of his Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, he does not gain the grappled condition.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired hellion's hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level.

The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature.

In addition, a white-haired hellion further improves his ability to control his hair as he progresses in level, gaining the following abilities:

Constrict (Ex): At 2nd level, when the white-haired hellion's hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting his victim as a swift action, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.

Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired hellion who successfully strikes a foe with his hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a swift action.

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired hellion who successfully strikes a foe with his hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to him as a swift action.

Strangle (Ex): At 8th level, when the white-haired hellion's hair is grappling with an opponent, that creature is considered strangled, and cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

This ability replaces the hellion's 1st-level hex.

Diminished Spellcasting Beginning at 4th level, a white-haired hellion gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the witch spell list. His base daily spell allotment is the same as that of a paladin.

Through 3rd level, a white-haired hellion has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his hellion level – 3.

This ability changes the spells class feature.

Patron (Su) When a white-haired hellion gains the ability to cast spells, he adds the first four spells from his patron's spell list to his hellion spell list. The white-haired hellion cannot cast patron spells of a level he is unable to cast.

Rogue Talents At 11th level and for every three levels thereafter, a white-haired hellion can choose a rogue talent whenever he could select a new hellion talent, using his white-haired hellion level in place of his rogue level. A white-haired hellion cannot select an individual rogue talent more than once, and can select from among the following: assault leader, combat trick, finesse rogue, major magic, minor magic, positioning attack, resiliency, surprise attack, and weapon training.

At 17th level, a white-haired hellion can choose from the following advanced rogue talents: another day, defensive roll, improved evasion, opportunist, redirect attack, slippery mind, and thoughtful reexamining.

It's not a final draft by any means, but I'm not sure what else I could do to make it better. The hardest part was resolving the patron spells problem, but the solution had actually already been provided elsewhere and it makes sense for it to work the way I have it. I also figured that since the cantrips ability is usually listed as part of the spell ability, I didn't need to mention it not being a part of the archetype. I plan on using this archetype with a hellion NPC as part of my upcoming Heirs of Thassilon campaign.


Blayde MacRonan wrote:
Saw this and decided to take a stab at making a White-Haired Hellion archetype, as I too am a fan of the wuxia trope. It's just crunch, no fluff and my first attempt at doing something like this. Thought I'd post a copy here, so take a look and tell me what you guys think....

I think it looks really cool!

How did the intro of this class into folks' games go over?

Community / Forums / Paizo / Product Discussion / The Genius Guide to the Hellion (PFRPG) PDF All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.