The Genius Guide to Feats of Multiclassing (PFRPG) PDF

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Fantasy fiction is rife with characters that can call on a hodgepodge of minor techniques, from rogues who apprenticed as wizards in their youth to priests who were once warriors, often fantasy characters break out of the narrow restrictions of a single class. If a player wishes to create similarly flexible characters they often have little choice but to multiclass, often only “level dipping” to pick up just enough of a class’s iconic abilities to justify a complex background.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic introduced feats that created alternatives to level dipping: Amateur Gunslinger and the Eldritch Heritage line of feats. These feats give characters enough of the features of another base class to allow players to create characters with concepts that are “multiclassed” without level dipping, or wrestling with any of the complex questions that come up when taking levels in multiple classes. Inspired by these feats (which have been reproduced here for purposes of including all multiclass feat options in one place), The Genius Guide to Feats of Multiclassing applies this same idea to other base classes, allowing players to build characters that touch on the abilities of the alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, magus, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, and wizard without taking on levels from multiple classes.

This means, of course, that this product is not for anyone who dislikes blurring distinctions between classes. That said, the multiclass feats can actually be excellent ways to help sharpen the distinctions between characters, by giving players one more set of options to customize their character choices. Three fighters are going to make a lot of the same choices, but if one has focused on his fiendish heritage (with the eldritch heritage line of feats), one on his duty to a knightly order (with Squire and Champion of the Order) and one on his training as a warrior of the Clan of the Bear (with Berserker, Wodewose and Skin Walker), the characters are going to feel very different even as they take on the same basic tasks of dealing damage to foes. The lines between classes may be blurry, but the characters have grown in distinctiveness as a result.

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4.5 stars - excellent book to customize characters

5/5

This pdf is 21 pages long, 2/3 of a page front cover, 1 page SRD & editorial, leaving 19 1/3 pages of content, so let's check this out!

Multiclassing is a topic that is problematic at best - while on the one side it enables players to make characters that are more complex, on the other hand level-dipping can and has unbalanced more than one character out there. It is this problem recent Paizo-publications have addressed via Eldritch Heritage and Amateur Gunslinger ( the former from UM, the latter from UC) sought to address. It is here that SGG's feats of multiclassing start at (including a reprint of the feats, so all are compiled in one source): Essentially, this pdf provides you with feats that enable you to play e.g. fighters with a knack for some spells, arcanists with martial training etc. After an alphabetic list of the feats and extensive advice on how to use them and an optional rule on favored multiclassing, we're introduced to the feats.

Mechanically, these feats provide a slew of challenges for the designers: In order to keep the game-balance and keep them useful, many of the feats herein have the prerequisite of having no levels in a particular class. Once a character with such a feat takes a level in the prohibited class, the feat is changed towards a rogue talent, a certain feat or a similar benefit, making these feats valid long-time investments for PCs.

More than that, the guide also includes a slew of feat chains that expand e.g. upon the eldritch heritages of your character or your minor gunslinging talents. It should also be mentioned that not only "dipping"-feats are included in the deal - the Ajouga-feat (wizard/witch-summoner), for example lets you give up your familiar in favor of making your eidolon your familiar. There is a wide-variety of different options to scavenge signature abilities from other classes than your primary one and while I do enjoy the variety and balance of the feats, I can't help but feel that it will take some time of playtesting on the part of my group to find out whether/how especially the specialist path multiclass feats are balanced. While I don't have any concerns with regards to the dipping-feats or those that grant access to some of the unique abilities, those that grant access to higher level abilities still leave me with a slightly queasy feeling. Take the aberrant bloodline, for example...

That is not where the pdf stops, though: 5 feats for SGG-classes are part of the deal and provide great practical examples and advice for you to create your very own multiclassing feats.

Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are very good and apart from one formatting error, I did not notice anything distracting. Layout adheres to SGG's 3-column standard and the pdf has no bookmarks, which is a pity, for it would make navigating the feats easier .The cover-artwork (probably depicting a character with the journeyman gunslinger feat) is awesome. Designing these feats must have been HARD. Seriously, balancing them, doing the math etc. is a daunting task and it did work out, as far as I'm concerned. While not all of the feats leave me with a comfortable feeling, that also stems from my own predisposition to keep classes and especially their signature abilities apart. Seeing that not all signature abilities can be taken via these feats and those that can be usually don't go into higher echelon territory somewhat alleviates my fear of them unhinging the game, though. As far as I can tell from my extensive lecture of this pdf, the feats herein provide an excellent and smart way of providing multiclass-options without going into the abhorred level-dipping territory, thus enabling the creation of more complex character backgrounds with rules-relevant consequences. One thing seeped into my mind while writing this - what happens when you combine the narrative-driven (and thankfully, relevant) traits from RiP's "101 Pirate & Privateer Traits" and combine them with feats like that? I really hope for more trait books with this new approach and potentially renegade feats of multiclassing to expand upon the concept, making finally an end of generic characters once and for all. That being said, it should come to no surprise that my final verdict will clock in high: At 4.5 stars due to the lack of bookmarks, rounded up to 5 for the purpose of this platform.

Endzeitgeist out.


5/5

For those of us who play tabletop RPG's, and honestly, if you are reading this, I am assuming you are a fellow gamer, the concept of basing a desire to recreate our fantasies is why we're all here. Whether it was a character from a favorite novel as a child, that one movie, with those two guys (you know the one), or a show you ran home from school everyday to not miss a minute of. My point is, when you ask a roleplayer for their source of inspiration, you're going to hear about favorite characters and ideals from throughout the entire genre of fantasy, sci-fi, noir, even westerns if you ask the right folks, we all grew up pretending to be someone, and luckily, most of us never outgrew that. The problem comes in when you try to apply game rules to the concept in your mind, and you quickly discover that class concepts are a lot stricter than imagination. Luckily, Paizo thought to open the door to the idea that perhaps multiclassing wasn't the only way to explain why a fighter would know how to cast a few spells, or a priest might be handy with a gun. And by opening that door with the feats Amateur Gunslinger and Eldritch Heritage (both published in Ultimate Magic), they allowed Super Genius Games the opportunity to run with it, and expand upon the idea that perhaps individuals can actually be just that, individual.

Now, it goes without saying, when you sit down with your playgroup, if you expect your paladin to be a two-dimensional Lawful Gullible buzzkill who has never thought to learn anything more than what the church has told him he needs in order to able to bring the light of his teaching to the world, well this might not be the book for you. On the other hand, if your paladin didn't find the calling right at the moment of birth, and perhaps had a childhood of misadventure that picked him up an interesting skill or two that you would like to be able to represent via new options and tricks available to you as the player, well then, this book just might be for you.

Ok, so why not just multiclass, right? I mean, we've always had the option, so why a whole new concept to gain abilities of various classes, fair enough question. And, here's a fair enough answer. Multiclassing is a murky, convoluted messy affair that can very quickly break a character, that's why. What do I mean by break a character? Let me give you an example, let's go back to that paladin. Let's say as a lad, he was orphaned to the streets, and had to learn to survive the old fashioned way. Now, ignoring the hilarity of seeing rogue1/paladin5 on a character sheet (chuckle), I don't want to give up a level of my possible 20 to rogue, it's not like he was trained, I don't want nor need all that comes with that level of rogue, I just want a few things, just to acknowledge my character concept. But, by taking a multiclass feat such as Talent for Mischief from this PDF, I can acknowledge my paladin's time as a street urchin by choosing an appropriate rogue talent that he retains to this day. Maybe he was always good at stealing food for him and a few other kids, or he was the one they always sent climbing up the buildings to find ways in. Regardless, this optional system of multiclass feats allows me to design the character more fully to match my vision, and thereby allows for a fuller back story to be supported by the math on the character sheet when done.

Contained within the 21 pages of this PDF are 47 of these multiclass feats, 2 of which are reprints, added to allow for a sense of completeness under one cover. Of the remaining 45 feats, 5 are geared towards abilities from SGG classes like the Time Thief/Warden, Armiger and Death Mage. The remaining 40 are spread across a fair selection of the Core and APG classes. Whereas a great deal of these feats are designed to give you access to spell casting in one form or another, that's far from the only thing covered here.

Now, it would be insane to allow folks to pick and choose all the cool toys from each pile without giving some form of checks and balances, and whereas I admit I wasn't entirely clear the first time I read the restrictions through, I caught on pretty quick to how one keeps a character in line when it comes to these feats. Essentially, it comes down to favored class options, and losing them if you start picking from to many piles for your multiclass feats. It's more refined then that, and presented a lot more elegantly by Owen and Ryan, but there's the nutshell version. There are exceptions, and obviously more to it then my shortened rendition, but without giving to much away, there you go.

Along with the concept of adding these feats, and an optional ruling on them that would allow for less restriction upon them to explain certain abnormalities within a population or locale (think Freeport, if ever there was a city where EVERYONE should get some free rogue talents, lol), the concept of designing additional multiclass feats is covered, with advice on what to look for in a class that would be the signature abilities perfect for the multiclass concept.

The formatting follows the familiar three column with embedded artwork that has dominated the look and feel of SGG products, right along with their partial cover front page. The artwork is all color throughout, with pieces of stock art interspersed with original (or at least pieces I haven't seen used to death everywhere else yet), and tends to range from the not bad to the really good in quality. I noticed no grammatical errors, no formatting ones for that matter.

My only real complaint regarding this PDF is that I am going to have to wait for volume two, as I want to see more multiclass feats handling the martial classes, as well as a great deal more SGG classes getting the multi treatment. Another fantastic product guys, and a steal at the current price. Sticking to the 1-5 standard for ratings, I'm going with a 5 for this collection of awesomeness, as I can't stop thinking of new character ideas, and I love a product that inspires me.


Don't be temped. Just buy it.

5/5

I'm still learning how to write a good review so bear with me. I'll let others cover technical stuff. I'm more concerned with how this fits into my game.

This is a really interesting product. The way the feats increase your character’s abilities without having you sacrifice more than you need is exactly what many of us have been wanting. Instead of having to take several levels in a class, you can get just a taste, enough to give you want you want. These feats don’t allow you to overshadow those characters that are more committed to their classes. So if you want to feel like a bounty hunter with a small bonus to a favored enemy, no problem. If you want to be able to cast a very small selection of spells but not have to be a full fledged caster, no problem. If you want to be able to wild shape into an elemental, you should probably take some levels in druid.

Something that I really like about this is how it handles the issue of actually multiclasing after you’ve taken the feats. Each feat explains how it should be replaced. This is nice for the player that wanted a taste but then realized he must have more than just a morsel. He wants a meal and he can do that without feeling like he wasted a feat.

The only thing I would have wanted to see more of was some more barbarian love. I don’t know how it would have been done. There is only one feat that is specifically for someone wanting a taste of being a barbarian. Maybe if there is a sequel.

I have been wanting to do something like this for a while but I just haven’t had the time to figure out how. SSG gives some great advice on how to create other feats that GMs and players may need. With every possible combination of classes and archetypes, it would be impossible to cover everything.

I have been leery about adding a lot of 3PP material to my games for many reasons, and quality is one of them. I don’t like to spend money on a product and then find out it didn’t meet my expectations. SSG has great price points and have managed to make me rethink that position. I will be buying more stuff in the future for sure.


3.5 Stars for Multiclassing

4/5

So this product is 21 pages, with 2/3rds of a page of a front cover and 1 page legalese / advertisements. It adheres to the 3 column lay out that SGG does. It presents 47 feats, most are new but a few have appeared before such as eldritch heritage and amateur gunslinger, as well as a bit of new rules about multiclassing through feats, including what to do if the character gains levels in the class that they were multiclassing into through feats (though these rules sometimes make for odd situations where they gain feats they don't actually qualify for, but its hardly game breaking, just a bit off). There is also information on how to create and balance your own multiclass feats.

So all that out of the way, let's get to the meat and potatoes, how does this product allow multi-classing through feats. Well these feats are all extremely close to eldritch heritage, they require a less powerful feat to get access to the multiclass feats (though optional rules included in the product remove that requirement for one class), they all have an attribute requirement, and have a skill requirement as well and they all grant class abilities.

Over all I think they do the job pretty well. A few give me balance concerns (granting a revelation for 2 feats, or 2 domains for 5) but not so much that I think they would break the game while another can actually serve to penalize the character who takes it in a certain situation (reducing the wizard 2 / cleric 1 to caster level 1 / 1). However, those are the exception rather than the rule and I wouldn't have a problem allowing this into any game that I run.

On layout and organization, there's one feat name that isn't in the proper font, but other than that everything looked good. Still, I wish (really really wish) that they had laid out the feat table in feat chains rather than just alphabetizing it, that would've made the product much easier to get at a quick glance.

So over all, the balance concerns reduce this from what could be a 5 star product to 4 stars, and the difficulty following feat chains reduce it by another half a star though I think it is worth rounding up. Its a good solid product and if the idea of allowing easier multiclassing appeals to you, or you like the eldritch heritage feat chain, by all means pick it up, you will be glad you did.


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Super Genius Games

Hey look, it's live!

:)


Tempting

Scarab Sages

Guided by the ideas behind Amateur Gunslinger and the Eldritch Heritage line of feats, we tried to create a new mechanism to allow characters to broaden their scope, without breaking game balance or dealing with the more ccmplex options of actually taking a full level of another class.


You know, I recall suggesting this at one point at time, but I don't recall who I did it to. Looking forward to perusing this!

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
You know, I recall suggesting this at one point at time, but I don't recall who I did it to. Looking forward to perusing this!

Ryan brought me this idea, and I thought it was, well, Genius! Given my history with the Eldritch Heritage line I should have thought of it, but I didn't.


Oh yea, I wasn't claiming it as my own! It's just always reassuring when you have the same ideas as some of the great designers and developers :)

Also, I envision one of my players taking two of these feats ASAP.


very interesting, I'll have to look into it later


Just got mine from Dungeon A Day. I was thinking about something like this for awhile. One of the things I like about 4e. I saves from some of the headaches of normal multiclassing. Makes me want to go ahead & change the Prestige Classes into Prestige Feats.

Liberty's Edge

xorial wrote:
One of the things I like about 4e. I saves from some of the headaches of normal multiclassing.

I only found out 4e does multiclassing like this after I told a 4e playing friend that this was coming out. I'm curious how the two compare.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, let us assume for a moment that you have a rogue that eventually becomes a skilled swashbuckler . . .

However, in his humble beginnings, he was both a white mag . . . er . . . cleric and a black ma . . . er . . . wizard. However, he was never really good at magic despite this fascination with it.

Could said character remain primarily a rogue while still reflecting his woefully neglected talent in black and white magic?

Scarab Sages

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Could said character remain primarily a rogue while still reflecting his woefully neglected talent in black and white magic?

Yes.

Liberty's Edge

Yes, KnightErrantJR, but with great dedication.

You'd want Domain Acolyte to get limited access to a domain power, as well as Arcane Student to gain access to some wizard school power. Then take Apprentice Spellcaster Training twice, once for cleric, once for wizard. I can think of a few spells and powers that could really help a rogue out and play up his days dabbling in two types of magic.


I'm going to have to spend some time with this one. I have a few character ideas I've been working on and I think that this may be very useful. It feels a little like the 4E multiclass feats or a little like some of the kits from 2E. I like the idea of just a little taste of a class instead of having to take several levels to not quite meet the concept.

I think that my biggest concern will be how these interact with some of the archetypes for example, Man-at-Arms and the sohei. I certainly don't think that it would be game breaking, just that it may open up options that were never intended. Of course, that could just make it even more fun.


How I did WAIT for this.

Scarab Sages

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'm going to have to spend some time with this one. I have a few character ideas I've been working on and I think that this may be very useful. It feels a little like the 4E multiclass feats or a little like some of the kits from 2E. I like the idea of just a little taste of a class instead of having to take several levels to not quite meet the concept.

That's pretty much the core of the concept, and I'm glad to see it gaining some traction. :)

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I think that my biggest concern will be how these interact with some of the archetypes for example, Man-at-Arms and the sohei. I certainly don't think that it would be game breaking, just that it may open up options that were never intended. Of course, that could just make it even more fun.

I'm pretty sure people will be able to do things we never considered. I'm also pretty sure I'll be okay with the results. :D


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'm going to have to spend some time with this one. I have a few character ideas I've been working on and I think that this may be very useful. It feels a little like the 4E multiclass feats or a little like some of the kits from 2E. I like the idea of just a little taste of a class instead of having to take several levels to not quite meet the concept.
That's pretty much the core of the concept, and I'm glad to see it gaining some traction. :)

Mission accomplished!!!

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bardess wrote:
How I did WAIT for this.

Glad we got it into your hands! :D

xorial wrote:
Mission accomplished!!!

Nothing like positive feedback with three !'s. :D


I bought this on a whim after reading a bit of this thread this afternoon. I've recently fleshed out an NPC villain for a campaign who is sorcerer/priest (Tome of Secrets) with the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and it's nice to know that this product supports the eventual improvement of her abilities down the road. I also really like the idea of handling multiclassing in this manner rather than having to level-dip. Thanks, Owen - this rawks!


Grabbed, devoured, loved...reviews posted here, RPGNow and NerdTrek. Love a product that literally inspires mass amounts of character concepts, and in such a way as to actively encourage one to step outside of the restraints of rigid classes. Now, volume 2, I need more, lol.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Is there a particular reason that the Ajuoga feat (the one that lets you combine a summoner's eidolon with a witch or wizard's familiar) specifies levels in witch or wizard rather than any class that grants a familiar? The summoner/sorcerer would seem to be a more natural combination -- so why was that combination precluded?


Excellent review, KTFish7!


Thank You End...was just over at GMS taking a look through your extensive catalog of reviews

Scarab Sages

KTFish7 wrote:
Grabbed, devoured, loved...reviews posted here, RPGNow and NerdTrek. Love a product that literally inspires mass amounts of character concepts, and in such a way as to actively encourage one to step outside of the restraints of rigid classes. Now, volume 2, I need more, lol.

Many thanks for the review!

Scarab Sages

David knott 242 wrote:

Is there a particular reason that the Ajuoga feat (the one that lets you combine a summoner's eidolon with a witch or wizard's familiar) specifies levels in witch or wizard rather than any class that grants a familiar? The summoner/sorcerer would seem to be a more natural combination -- so why was that combination precluded?

My main concern was that since a sorcerer gains his familiar through a bloodline, and Eldritch Heritage lets anyone gain that bloodline, expanding Ajuoga to anyone with a familiar meant anyone could get an eidolon with a single level of summoner, and I wasn't sure I could balance ever possible combination.

It's possible I was over-cautious in this case. Certainly I'd allow the feat to an actual sorcerer with the arcane bloodline.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Many thanks to General Dorsey for the review I didn't even notice until I saw it on the Super Genius Facebook update!


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Ryan brought me this idea, and I thought it was, well, Genius! Given my history with the Eldritch Heritage line I should have thought of it, but I didn't.

Okay, I'll bite. What history?

Scarab Sages

Dungeon Grrrl wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Ryan brought me this idea, and I thought it was, well, Genius! Given my history with the Eldritch Heritage line I should have thought of it, but I didn't.
Okay, I'll bite. What history?

Ah, I thought this was common knowledge? Those were part of my contribution to Ultimate Magic.


I bow to you that more deeply.


Slightly off-topic then. Was the intent of those to be open to select the wildblooded archetype bloodlines?


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Based on the three reviews, I purchased this and am very happy with it.

My only complaint echos what ShadowcatX stated: "Still, I wish (really really wish) that they had laid out the feat table in feat chains rather than just alphabetizing it, that would've made the product much easier to get at a quick glance."

That would have made it perfect instead of almost perfect. If you ever redo the layout, or make another, please give consideration to doing the table in feat chains, thank you.

-- david
Papa.DRB


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Is there a particular reason that the Ajuoga feat (the one that lets you combine a summoner's eidolon with a witch or wizard's familiar) specifies levels in witch or wizard rather than any class that grants a familiar? The summoner/sorcerer would seem to be a more natural combination -- so why was that combination precluded?

My main concern was that since a sorcerer gains his familiar through a bloodline, and Eldritch Heritage lets anyone gain that bloodline, expanding Ajuoga to anyone with a familiar meant anyone could get an eidolon with a single level of summoner, and I wasn't sure I could balance ever possible combination.

It's possible I was over-cautious in this case. Certainly I'd allow the feat to an actual sorcerer with the arcane bloodline.

Thank you very much. I think it is the dip into a non-summoner class that is the killer -- a standard summoner wants his eidolon to be as powerful as possible, so losing even one hit die is painful. Still, that could be a fair trade for a possibly massive boost to intelligence and a few other goodies.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

There is an issue with the Multiclass Druid chain of feats.

The "final" feat in the chain, Nagual (Multiclass Druid) has prerequisites: "Animal Affinity, Skin Walker*, Wodewose*, any one other Multiclass Druid feat, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks, no levels in druid, Wis 17."

The issue is, besides Skin Walker and Wodewose, there are NO other Multiclass Druid feats, so how is this feat (Nagual) obtainable?

-- david
Papa.DRB

Scarab Sages

Papa-DRB wrote:
The issue is, besides Skin Walker and Wodewose, there are NO other Multiclass Druid feats, so how is this feat (Nagual) obtainable?

If you take Novice Spellcaster Training for the druid class, it becomes a Druid Multiclass feat. Of course there may also be other druid multiclass feats in later books, so I didn't want to require only Novice Spellcaster Training.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Papa-DRB wrote:
The issue is, besides Skin Walker and Wodewose, there are NO other Multiclass Druid feats, so how is this feat (Nagual) obtainable?
If you take Novice Spellcaster Training for the druid class, it becomes a Druid Multiclass feat. Of course there may also be other druid multiclass feats in later books, so I didn't want to require only Novice Spellcaster Training.

Ah ha. I was specifically searching for Multiclass Druid. Ok, that makes sense then. Thanks,

-- david
Papa.DRB


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Okay, I have a couple more Ajuoga questions.

Let's say that we have a summoner 6/wizard 6 with the Ajuoga feat. If I understand things correctly, that gives the eidolon the abilities of an eidolon of a 9th level summoner and of a familiar of a 12th level wizard.

Both classes have tables for AC bonus. Do they stack, or do you just use the higher bonus? Or is this a case where it matters whether you take an armor bonus or a natural armor bonus for the eidolon?

There are several evolutions that include the statement "The summoner must be at least x level before selecting this evolution." For the purpose of such restrictions, is my example character 6th level or 9th level?

Scarab Sages

David knott 242 wrote:

Okay, I have a couple more Ajuoga questions.

Let's say that we have a summoner 6/wizard 6 with the Ajuoga feat. If I understand things correctly, that gives the eidolon the abilities of an eidolon of a 9th level summoner and of a familiar of a 12th level wizard.

Correct.

David knott 242 wrote:
Both classes have tables for AC bonus. Do they stack, or do you just use the higher bonus? Or is this a case where it matters whether you take an armor bonus or a natural armor bonus for the eidolon?

The later. If we are using your theoretical eidolon 9/familiar 12 creature, it has a natural armor bonus of +6 as a 12th level familiar. It also has an armor bonus of +6 as an eidolon, but this can be divided between armor and natural armor. Obviously you'd want to make it an armor bonus, so it would stack with the familair natural armor. On the other hand that means using share spells to cast mage armor on the eifamiliaradon doesn't do any good, as its armor bonus already exceeds the spell's benefit.

That does mean the eifamiliaradon's base AC is 2 higher than a straight 12th level eidolons would be, but only by +2. And since the straight eidolon could make all that natural armor and then benefit from a mage armor or a fairly cheap pair of bracers of armor, in my experience it all comes out in the wash.

mage armorThere are several evolutions that include the statement "The summoner must be at least x level before selecting this evolution." For the purpose of such restrictions, is my example character 6th level or 9th level?

Evolutions are a subset of "abilities," and Ajuoga says "Add

your summoner levels and half your witch and/or wizard class levels together to determine your eidolon’s HD and abilities" so your example character is treated as 9th for what evolutions he qualifies for.

Sczarni

Now I am curious, does being a synthetist/wizard allow you to take the Ajuoga feat?

Scarab Sages

Frerezar wrote:
Now I am curious, does being a synthetist/wizard allow you to take the Ajuoga feat?

Picky RAW I'd say you can take the feat... but it does you no good. You give up your familiar with the Ajuoga feat, and (officially) give up your eidolon ability with synthesist in favor of Fused Eidolon, which is a different ability. So while you qualify for the feat, you have no eidolon to gain the listed abilities the feat describes.

That's pretty hair-splitty, and that's what happens when archetypes mix with multiclass feats. In the end, if a GM is okay with a multiclass witch/wizard/synthesist, go ahead and allow it to work with fused eidolon. But look out for wonky character builds that use synthesist to weird results.

If a player built a multiclass synthesist summoner/witch/Ajuoga character called The Cairnwood Demon, and has a character history where his patron allowed him to call upon the spirit of a supernatural being to wreck havoc on the patron's enemies, AND the character looks reasonable, I'd probably allow it. If it looked like a cheap power-grab to get free physical stat boosts for a a character, I'd probably fall back on my read of RAW.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
Slightly off-topic then. Was the intent of those to be open to select the wildblooded archetype bloodlines?

Sorry that wasn't part of my turnover, so I didn't even know about it when I designed Eldritch Heritage feat tree. As a result, I have no designer's "intent" regarding how they should work together.

And, anyway, as a freelancer my intent is really moot. You'd need the Paizo developer's intent to have any idea how the rules "should" work together. That's not just buck-passing, either. When we freelancers turn things in, they later get edited and altered and made to fit a unified vision. What I intended may not match with how Paizo wants things to work, and it's their developers who act as shepherds of their rules.

At my own table? Sure, I'd let them work together.


Papa-DRB wrote:

Based on the three reviews, I purchased this and am very happy with it.

My only complaint echos what ShadowcatX stated: "Still, I wish (really really wish) that they had laid out the feat table in feat chains rather than just alphabetizing it, that would've made the product much easier to get at a quick glance."

That would have made it perfect instead of almost perfect. If you ever redo the layout, or make another, please give consideration to doing the table in feat chains, thank you.

This comment is very interesting to me, and I want to take a moment to see if there's a strong sense of agreement with it. We originally went with the pure-alphabetical listing based on feedback way back when we announced Feats of Battle, and a lot of folks who were unhappy with Paizo's feat-chain format asked if we could make the table pure-alphabetical instead. That's been our format for two years now, and no one has commented on it (that I recall) until now.

Now, things change, audiences expand, and standards shift. If there's a strong call to change to the feat-chain format, we can do that.

Thoughts?


I love it! I'm thinking about making some more for bombs, lay on hands, and maybe an idol on eidolon feat that doesn't require a familiar. But that could be tough to balance.

I'm wondering why no replacement feats were given for eldritch heritage, domain, and arcane school feats. I get that eldritch heritage didn't have them when introduced in ultimate magic, but this makes it tou for someone who eventually multi classes into one of these after acquiring these feats. Any recommendations on what I should do?


Jackissocool wrote:
I love it! I'm thinking about making some more for bombs, lay on hands, and maybe an idol on eidolon feat that doesn't require a familiar. But that could be tough to balance.

I considered a feat that let you have an eidolon to replace a cohort gained through leadership. I might be able to balance that.

Jackissocool wrote:
I'm wondering why no replacement feats were given for eldritch heritage, domain, and arcane school feats. I get that eldritch heritage didn't have them when introduced in ultimate magic, but this makes it tou for someone who eventually multi classes into one of these after acquiring these feats. Any recommendations on what I should do?

None of those feats have replacement options because none of them has "no levels in a class that grants this" as a prerequisite. When I originally wrote Eldritch Heritage, I accepted one reasonable option would be to play a character who is a scion of two sorcerous bloodlines. Thus you could play a draconic bloodline sorcerer who takes Eldritch Heritage (celestial bloodline) to represent a character who has mostly draconic sorcerer parents, but there's an angel in the woodpile somewhere.

For the same reasons, I decided you could play a cleric with access to more than two of your gods domains, or special training with more than one school of magic. If you read how those feats work, they specify you select a bloodline, school, or domain you don't already have -- calling out you might have other bloodlines/school/or school specializations.

Since you don't loose the feat by taking the class it multiclasses with, there's no need to replace them.

Now if you had someone who was playing a fighter with Eldritch Heritage (dragon), and he decided to actually multiclass into sorcerer and take the draconic bloodline, that would be weird, but that's going to be a pretty rare case. The simple thing is to tell the player to either select a different sorcerer bloodline for the class, or select a different one for the feat. Or, if a player has made a major epiphany that requires he have strong connections to one and only one bloodline, it might be best to just allow a top-down rewrite.


OWEN STEPHENS wrote:
Jackissocool wrote:
I love it! I'm thinking about making some more for bombs, lay on hands, and maybe an idol on eidolon feat that doesn't require a familiar. But that could be tough to balance.

I considered a feat that let you have an eidolon to replace a cohort gained through leadership. I might be able to balance that.

Jackissocool wrote:
I'm wondering why no replacement feats were given for eldritch heritage, domain, and arcane school feats. I get that eldritch heritage didn't have them when introduced in ultimate magic, but this makes it tou for someone who eventually multi classes into one of these after acquiring these feats. Any recommendations on what I should do?

None of those feats have replacement options because none of them has "no levels in a class that grants this" as a prerequisite. When I originally wrote Eldritch Heritage, I accepted one reasonable option would be to play a character who is a scion of two sorcerous bloodlines. Thus you could play a draconic bloodline sorcerer who takes Eldritch Heritage (celestial bloodline) to represent a character who has mostly draconic sorcerer parents, but there's an angel in the woodpile somewhere.

For the same reasons, I decided you could play a cleric with access to more than two of your gods domains, or special training with more than one school of magic. If you read how those feats work, they specify you select a bloodline, school, or domain you don't already have -- calling out you might have other bloodlines/school/or school specializations.

Since you don't loose the feat by taking the class it multiclasses with, there's no need to replace them.

Now if you had someone who was playing a fighter with Eldritch Heritage (dragon), and he decided to actually multiclass into sorcerer and take the draconic bloodline, that would be weird, but that's going to be a pretty rare case. The simple thing is to tell the player to either select a different sorcerer bloodline for the class, or select a different...

Well if you were a tatooed sorceror(ISM) you could get your first bloodline power back as you replace it.


Just got this today and it looks good!

I do have one question. Many of the feats have the following text:

"You can take this feat multiple times, but no more often than once per five levels."

Does this mean once per five total character levels?

Or does this mean if I take the feat at 7th level, I have to wait until 13th level (the next time I'd get a feat) to take it again?


Weren Wu Jen wrote:
Just got this today and it looks good!

I'm glad you like it!

Weren Wu Jen wrote:

I do have one question. Many of the feats have the following text:

"You can take this feat multiple times, but no more often than once per five levels."

Does this mean once per five total character levels?

Or does this mean if I take the feat at 7th level, I have to wait until 13th level (the next time I'd get a feat) to take it again?

Once per five total character levels. So if you are 11th level you could take it, then at 13th take it again, then at 15th take it again.


Thanks! :D

These feats are really nice! While they require some investment, they're definitely an improvement over "dipping".

Also, my favorite is Amateur Yogi, as it would allow access to Ki Stand (which just requires a Ki Pool)!

BTW: Personally, I prefer the feat chains in the table myself (as the descriptions are always alphabetical), but that's just me. :P

One last thing: The "Devoted Hunter" feat title is missing the formatting (causing it to almost "blend in" with the previous feat).


Weren Wu Jen wrote:
These feats are really nice! While they require some investment, they're definitely an improvement over "dipping".

I'm very glad you find them useful!

Weren Wu Jen wrote:
BTW: Personally, I prefer the feat chains in the table myself (as the descriptions are always alphabetical), but that's just me. :P

I appreciate the feedback. :)

Weren Wu Jen wrote:
One last thing: The "Devoted Hunter" feat title is missing the formatting (causing it to almost "blend in" with the previous feat).

Thanks, I hadn't noticed. I'll add it to the errata.to-do list.


You're welcome! :D


Can't wait till Wednesday (I get paid).

I've been clamoring for a product like this since 3.5 debuted.


OWEN STEPHENS wrote:

This comment is very interesting to me, and I want to take a moment to see if there's a strong sense of agreement with it. We originally went with the pure-alphabetical listing based on feedback way back when we announced Feats of Battle, and a lot of folks who were unhappy with Paizo's feat-chain format asked if we could make the table pure-alphabetical instead. That's been our format for two years now, and no one has commented on it (that I recall) until now.

Now, things change, audiences expand, and standards shift. If there's a strong call to change to the feat-chain format, we can do that.

Thoughts?

Personally, I despise Feat Chains, for anything other then Improved or Greater versions of a feat, as they should be listed directly after the feat they improve alphabetically anyway (i.e feat, improved). One of the problems I see in doing Feat Chains is that potential for multiple feats requiring overlapping prerequisites, but having nothing to do with each other by the end of the chain, and ending up reading as a confusing interlocking mess, when a straight alphabetical listing leaves one to look for themselves, at which point if someone doesn't understand, that is on them, not you.

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