Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer (PFRPG)

3.60/5 (based on 10 ratings)
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer (PFRPG)
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The distant continent of Tian Xia rests on the opposite side of the world from the Inner Sea region, and it shows. From the treacherous jungles of naga-ruled Nagajor to the sorcerous kingdom of Dtang Ma, and from the trackless and unforgiving deserts of Shaguang to the wondrous city of Goka, countless opportunities can be found for any character or adventure in amazingly expansive Tian Xia. While the extensive Dragon Empires Gazetteer unveils dozens of the mystical continent’s secrets, the Dragon Empires Primer provides information pertinent to creating characters for campaigns set in this vast and diverse region. This volume of Pathfinder Player Companion provides players and Game Masters alike with all of the settingspecific traits and trappings they need to customize and play characters in the Dragon Empires.

    Inside this Pathfinder Player Companion, you’ll find:
  • Overviews of all of Tian Xia’s nations, including important details for players to integrate into their characters’ backstories and new character traits for every region to give characters boons that further tie them to their homelands.
  • Rules for Tian Xia’s five most prominent races: the shapeshifting kitsune, ophidian nagaji, transmigratory samsarans, avian tengus, and shadowy wayangs.
  • Four new archetypes with distinctly Tian flavors, including the lotus geisha (bard), sword saint (samurai), white-haired witch (witch), and yokai hunter (ranger).
  • New feats for combative characters that bolster prowess in martial arts and swordplay.
  • An extensive look at the gods and philosophies of the Dragon Empires, as well as rules for the moon subdomain.
  • A new bloodline for sorcerers tainted with oni blood, and a new school of magic for wizards who wish to harness the power of the mysterious void.
  • New rules mechanics for establishing and maintaining one’s honor in the Dragon Empires.

This Pathfinder Player Companion works best with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game or the 3.5 version of the world’s oldest fantasy roleplaying game, but can be easily incorporated into any fantasy world.

Written by Tim Hitchcock and Colin McComb

Each bimonthly 32-page Pathfinder Companion contains several player-focused articles exploring the volume’s theme as well as short articles with innovative new rules for social, magic, religious, and combat-focused characters, as well as traits to better anchor the player to the campaign.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-386-6

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Player Companion Subscription.

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A nice entry

4/5

This book is a nice entry to Tian Xia, directed at players.
You find lots of good background information about different regions and deities here.
The races are all great and fun to play.
Archetypes are all very cool in idea and concept, the execution isn´t the best though unfortunately.
The feats are interesting and usefull enough though, just as the magic school and sorcerer bloodline.

The book suffers from the fact that most of the really useful content is printed in other books, from Dragon Empires Gazeteer to the Advanced Race Guide, as well as the archetypes having mechanical problems.
It would be very awesome if some of them receive updates/reprints/errata.
I also feel the sword saint could be a swashbuckler archtype.

The pro of the book is definately the Tian Xia Background info as well as the introduced races.

Should you be a fan of Tian Xia or like it: buy!


3/5

I've reviewed this book over on RPGGeek.com.


Good introduction to a fascinating setting

4/5

Read my full review on my blog.

Dragon Empires Primer presents a broad overview of the setting from a player perspective. As it serves the same basic purpose as the Inner Sea Primer (which provides an overview of the Inner Sea region), it shares the same style of layout and structure as that book, with half-page entries on each of the nations and main regions, along with new races, archetypes and feats, brief descriptions of the setting’s gods, and a system for keeping track of characters’ honour. Each nation’s entry also includes a pair of regional traits for characters from that land. It’s important to point out, however, that people expecting in-depth detail won’t find it here. Half a page is not a lot of space to describe an entire nation with anything more than the broadest strokes. What the book does do is provide an introduction to the setting, one to whet the appetites of players, and it does this very well. It provides just enough information to get players thinking about the types of characters they might like to play in the setting, and sets the stage for later, more in-depth development, provided by either the GM or future supplements.


Some use to players, a waste for DMs

1/5

So......I bought the Dragon Empires Primer PDF after getting the Gazeteer and finding that it left out some info on the Dragon Empires that would be included in the Primer. Like kitsune racial feats, and regional traits. What a waste this turned out to be.

Not only is most of the Primer just condensed or copied descriptions from the Dragon Empires Gazeteer (meaning I basically paid twice for most of the Primer's content), but there's hardly any new or useful info in the Primer for anyone who already has the Dragon Empires Gazeteer. Only 2 regional character traits for each country/region, 3 kitsune racial feats (all based on changing to fox form and back, quickly; nothing for their spell-like abilities or other racial traits), 1 bard archetype (Lotus Geisha), 1 samurai archetype (Sword Saint), 1 ranger archetype (Yokai Hunter), 1 witch archetype (White-Haired Witch), 10 new combat feats (only 1-3 of which are any use to non-monks....and 5 of the new feats are worse than core feats or just fairly pointless), 1 new samurai order (for evil samurai, and nothing new or special about it), 1 new sorcerer bloodline (the Oni Bloodline, which has a standard sorcerer skill as its bloodline class skill), 1 new wizard school (the void elemental school, which is a bit odd and requires both the Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic since some of its spells are only in those sources), 1 new wizard spell, and 2 pages describing Honor mechanics for the Dragon Empires as an optional rule.

The new material only occupies around 9 pages, and at least 1-2 of those are worthless to DMs. All in all.....the Dragon Empires Primer just isn't worth it for a DM, unless money and value are non-issues to you. Just get the DE Gazeteer PDF, if even that, which is only somewhat more detailed but more useful to DMs.

Players, at least, will get enough out of the Primer to at least make some characters hailing from the Dragon Empires, but only just. The 4 class archetypes are interesting enough and should be capable enough in a Dragon Empires campaign (perhaps the Jade Regent Adventure Path), though the Lotus Geisha and Yokai Hunter and some regional traits are unlikely to be as useful in some other parts of Golarion. The Void Elemental wizard school is neat and Call the Void is a cool spell, but with an error (it says victims can't cast spells with somatic components, when it should say verbal components, since victims can't speak in the airless void), and you'll need the APG and Ultimate Magic if you want to use its other spells. A few of the combat feats are actually useful, like Sleeper Hold, but most are weaker/more-limited than core feats.


Interesting, but has some problems

3/5

The Companion line is supposed to present a player-friendly product to help in creating characters from particular regions/races/religions/whatever. I bought the Dragon Empires Primer (DEP) for this very reason, thinking that it would be just as useful as the Inner Sea Primer (ISP).

Well, the Dragon Empires Primer certainly is similar to the Inner Sea Primer. They both have short-but-interesting half-page summaries for each country in the region covered, and a couple of pages each on archetypes (DEP has lotus geisha bard, sword saint samurai, white-haired witch, and yokai hunter ranger), arcane spellcaster variations (DEP has the oni bloodline and the void elemental wizard school), and major deities and other religions/philosophies.

The DEP has two more pages devoted to races than the ISP (which has only two). That is not surprising, as five new PC-playable races have been introduced along with a multitude of Tian ethnicities. There are also three kitsune racial feats plus a double hand-full of combat-related feats.

Unlike the ISP, the DEP does not have an abbreviated time-line to bring players up to speed on both the broad strokes of history (Earthfall/Age of Darkness, other Ages, etc.) and some of the most recent current events.

Also unlike the ISP, the DEP has two pages devoted to honour in the region, its importance, and how to track it. The system is similar to the Reputation system for the Land of the Linnorm Kings (Campaign Setting sourcebook).

The problems ...

Mistakes in the crunch/rules-heavy part. Examples include the oni bloodline's class skill, a spell name changed between a school spell list and the actual spell write-up (the same spell also has an error), and an error relating to the sword saint archetype's brutal slash class feature.

Lack of one very important player aid when creating a character - deity domains (and sub-domains). Something like that is easily left out of the ISP because those same deities are also in the Core Rules (which presumably a player has access to when creating a character). But what about a player making a character for/from the Dragon Empires?!? Most of those deities' domains are not listed in the Core Rules (exceptions: Abadar, Desna, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, and Shelyn - which leaves 14 others).

Quite honestly, I think that the DEP should have used one page for listing the domains of the deities worshipped in the Dragon Empires, and one page for describing the importance of honour in the region. (While putting this information in the player-friendly sourcebook is probably a good "heads up" for players, the actual rules relating to honour should have been put in the Gazetteer.)

The lack of an abbreviated time-line also irritated me. I'm still not sure which are the 16 Successor States, and I won't know unless I do some careful reading of the 28 individual country write-ups.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I'm waiting for my order to be processed, any spoilers on the White Haired Witch?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

They're part rogue, part Inhumans-style Medusa - and they lose hexes to pay for it. All of them.


The Yokai Hunter and the Lotus Geisha are being contemplated at my table. Any vague spoilers?


Shisumo wrote:
They're part rogue, part Inhumans-style Medusa - and they lose hexes to pay for it. All of them.

Ouch all of them?? Ouch!

I would rather loose the regular spells than the Hexes :)

Interesting that they are rogues

Do the white haired witches get a photo?


Shisumo wrote:
They're part rogue, part Inhumans-style Medusa - and they lose hexes to pay for it. All of them.

This sounds interesting.


Really interested in the Oni bloodline.

The Sword saint sounds interesting.

Is the Yokai hunter an archtype for the Ranger, Inquisitor, or other?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ThatEvilGuy wrote:
The Yokai Hunter and the Lotus Geisha are being contemplated at my table. Any vague spoilers?

The lotus geisha is a bard archetype that can focus his bardic performance on a single target to either increase the save DC or boost the bonus. He also gets Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for enchantment. These abilities come at the price of the bard's regular skill- and knowledge-based abilities.

The yokai hunter didn't impress me too much - it's got a weaker favored enemy (it doesn't increase as you level, you just get new types added at the base +2, and the list is limited), in exchange for the ability to recognize a favored enemy when shapeshifted or detect them at range. I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.


Shisumo wrote:

The yokai hunter didn't impress me too much - it's got a weaker favored enemy (it doesn't increase as you level, you just get new types added at the base +2, and the list is limited), in exchange for the ability to recognize a favored enemy when shapeshifted or detect them at range. I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.

Thanks for the response! It's too bad about the Yokai hunter. I had an idea brewing for that one. Lotus geisha sounds neat.

There was a mention of rogue for the white haired witch. Like, how rogue? "I find traps" rogue or "I carve you to pieces" rogue?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.


Shisumo wrote:
"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.

That's, um... hmm. I have no idea. So the first 10 levels are "I get awesome hair powers" followed by "I give up powerful supernatural abilities for low-level rogue mundane abilities".

Hm. I'll have to see it for myself when I buy the PDF to really make a judgement, to be honest. Perhaps the awesome of the hair makes up for the loss. Perhaps.


Shisumo wrote:
"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.

So, if your white-haired witch takes the extra hexes feat, does it provide hexes or rogue talents?


Spiral_Ninja wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.
So, if your white-haired witch takes the extra hexes feat, does it provide hexes or rogue talents?

My guess is that it's like the Archaeologist, in that they get the Rogue Talent class ability so they can take the feat.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

<-- would kill to play a Kitsune psion :-)

Hmm, I've a few feat ideas I need to put down now.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Shisumo wrote:
Sword saint loses banner, which strikes me as extremely disappointing for a samurai archetype.

I love it! The mount and banner abilities were the abilities I did not want as a part of my samurai character concept. Now I have something I find more useful for my samurai.

I am not a bard player at all, but the lotus bard causes me to consider some cool character concepts... maybe as part of a ninja multiclass with hidden weapons and disguises...

The yokai hunter doesn't do anything for me.

The white-haired witch is the most anticipated archetype for me as I have a few character concepts in mind for it. Unfortunately, this focuses on rogue-like abilities for some reason, which I find a little... inexplicable. It's not all bad, but it does invalidate some concepts I was hoping for. I was hoping for something a little more monk-like.

Also, you have to give up all of your hexes as a white-haired witch. The hair extends its reach every four levels and uses INT instead of STR to attack and grapple with. It also gets some nice constrict, trip, and strangle abilities, but the pull ability scares me - its use would have to be very situational, especially as a squishy, full arcane spellcaster. Using the hair in melee combat is a rather "hairy" proposition as it is (heh heh ;) ) for a non-melee proficient spellcaster. If I am going into melee as a low-BAB spellcaster I wish I could at least get a better bonus to my BAB than just using my INT for something I am giving up a lot to get - something like using my level as my BAB for my hair would be nice, though potentially OP (that idea would need playtesting). It does let you get a free chance to grapple your target without provoking an AoO, though, which is pretty nice; it's just that your chance of succeeding with a low BAB seems pretty bad. Giving up all of my hexes on top of it all is a high cost and getting only rogue talents in their place feels wrong to me somehow.

I guess it has some potential though. I'll have to review some of those rogue talents. This archetype would work best as a touch-spell-focused caster, I think. I hope there are rogue talents that can support that (I haven't looked yet and cannot recall right now).


Looking over the pdf, I find it surprising that in the Faith chapter, no domains are given for any of the Tian gods. (Though it's possible I'm just missing a chart or something, I can't find one.)


Gahh, the snow in Seattle is delaying further shipments of the primers, which means I probably won't have the pdf before my first game with my Kitsune character this weekend XD


What are the bonus spells known for the Oni bloodline and what is there bonus class skill?


The sword saint losing the mount and banner works for one of my concepts as well! Works *perfectly*.

Ashanderai wrote:
Stuff about white-haired witch

That actually sounds pretty neat, now that I know you can do a few things with the hair. I'm presuming that it's an extension of the prehensile hair hex with unlimited duration or so in addition to being able to use it to do all those combat maneuvers. Outside of theorycrafting though, I have no idea how useful the archetype would be in a combat situation compared to a regular witch. Time will tell.


Would anyone be able to fill in the mechanical details of Iaijutsu Strike? I'm starting up Jade Regent once the primer is out because I feel a player would be really into Sword Saint, but we'd like to know early (in order to actually get his character done for game day) if Iaijutsu Strike is worth trading out for the mount and banner for his concept.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

IMO posting the mechanical effects from a book that just got released this week is a bit tacky since why buy it when someone will fill you in. I would say let him play it like a normal samurai till he can take a look through and decide and if you're running it maybe let him have the option to rebuild his character. Having looked at the Jade Regent I wouldn't wanna be mounted in the swamp anyways.

Lantern Lodge

Robert Jordan wrote:
Downloaded and started perusing the book. I did jump ahead to the Kitsune bonus feats, there are 3 of them, but doesn't look like you can take any more than once so it seems you can get up to 4 tails right now.

Can I get 9 tails and then become indestructible ?


That's a good point. Got another cavalier/inquisitor who will be insisting on riding his mount in the swamp. Probably all over Brinewall Keep too, knowing him.


What are the feats and martial arts styles mentioned in the product description like?

also how does the honor system look? I heard that it was similar to the reputation system in the Linnorm Kingdoms book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

A good deal of the feats in here revolve around the following; ki, flurry of blows, stunning fist, or quivering palm. There are a couple that do not but the majority entail one of those aforementioned abilities. I will say one of the coolest feats revolves around using Quivering Palm to do something other than kill the target (my favorite is coma). Oh and there's a feat named Sleeper Hold which is pretty self explanatory on what it lets you do. The honor system does indeed resemble the rep system from Lands of the Linnorm Kings, so if you're familiar with the rep system you'll have a good grasp on the honor one.

Ouch sorry protoman just remember you're not held responsible for what their mounts may do when they suddenly sink up to their hindquarters in pluff mud.


lol I really need to look up swamp environment rules


Robert Jordan wrote:

A good deal of the feats in here revolve around the following; ki, flurry of blows, stunning fist, or quivering palm. There are a couple that do not but the majority entail one of those aforementioned abilities. I will say one of the coolest feats revolves around using Quivering Palm to do something other than kill the target (my favorite is coma). Oh and there's a feat named Sleeper Hold which is pretty self explanatory on what it lets you do. The honor system does indeed resemble the rep system from Lands of the Linnorm Kings, so if you're familiar with the rep system you'll have a good grasp on the honor one.

Ouch sorry protoman just remember you're not held responsible for what their mounts may do when they suddenly sink up to their hindquarters in pluff mud.

Many thanks Robert.

You know its about time someone made a feat or two that involved quivering palm. I need to stop asking about this book its just making me want it more.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Robert Jordan wrote:
Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.

I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ævux wrote:
Robert Jordan wrote:
Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.
I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.

Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Joseph Wilson wrote:
Ævux wrote:
Robert Jordan wrote:
Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.
I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.

Only until he meets the BAB pre-reqs. Well, that and a 13 Dex for Swift Fox Shape, but what Gunslinger won't have a 13 Dex by 6th level?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?

To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..


Probably to keep characters from starting with them, and because the chain leads to something enhancing a combat action. Or something.

Shadow Lodge

Damn it, spent a month building an Oracle to use Iaijutsu now I'm even more excited about the samurai. Mix of overwhelming joy with rage! So looking forward to the 25th.


Kvantum wrote:
Joseph Wilson wrote:
Ævux wrote:
Robert Jordan wrote:
Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.
I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.
Only until he meets the BAB pre-reqs. Well, that and a 13 Dex for Swift Fox Shape, but what Gunslinger won't have a 13 Dex by 6th level?

So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.

Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD


I hope mine ships today because I might not get it until days after the release date.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
UltraFennec wrote:
Probably to keep characters from starting with them, and because the chain leads to something enhancing a combat action. Or something.

That could just be done by making that specific one require bab, and the others require character level X.


So all the kitsune feats require BA, would't it make more sense for it to be a level reqirenment then BA one.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ævux wrote:

Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?

To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..

The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."

Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.

I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)


James Jacobs wrote:
Ævux wrote:

Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?

To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..

The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."

Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.

I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.

I'm glad to hear that there will probably be more kitsune feats :D It would be interesting if you guys actually made enough feats for a kitsune to get 9 tails. Though, I'm having enough trouble just figuring out how to fit the current 3 kitsune feats on my ninja, lol.

Assuming 5 more feats are created, I wonder if there should be a prestige class to help a kitsune become a nine tailed fox faster?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Matrixryu wrote:

So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.

Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD

Fox form Cha 13, BAB +3

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger Dex 13 BAB +6
Vulpine Pounce Dex 13, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, BAB +10

I'm sure there are already other feats out there :-)


Matthew Morris wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:

So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.

Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD

Fox form Cha 13, BAB +3

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger Dex 13 BAB +6
Vulpine Pounce Dex 13, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, BAB +10

I'm sure there are already other feats out there :-)

Ouch, I'm not going to be able to get Vulpine Pounce until level 15... (unless I give up a Master Ninja Trick). At least the ability scores won't be a problem.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Ævux wrote:

Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?

To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..

The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."

Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.

I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.

Well really, I feel you should have for those feats, cause BAB is not a good representation of a characters actual power level.

The pounce is okay as with BAB cause it is a combative one, but it is still rather steep.. A medium bab won't be able to get it until level 15. a Low BAB, won't be able to get swift shape until level 13 and a low bab would never be able to get pounce. Low babs also can't get the first kitsune feat until level 7.

I was afraid this was going to be all based on caster level, and as a gunslinger I'd never gain access to them, but I never would have expected a gunslinger kitsune to be the best option for it.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kevin Mack wrote:
Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)

That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.

And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.


James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)

That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.

And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.

I'll just go with the intent and increase my kitsune's number of tails ;) Besides, if omitting that was just a mistake it will probably just be added into the Advanced Race Guide or an errata.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)

That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.

And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.

Reviewing some stuff.. I noticed that only one other race has feats that you aren't suppose to get at level one. And that would be the drow.. who has character level requirements.

Normally your stance on racial feats seems be "make them available at level 1"

I'm not sure if you ever made any other racial feats like this.


Ævux wrote:

Reviewing some stuff.. I noticed that only one other race has feats that you aren't suppose to get at level one. And that would be the drow.. who has character level requirements.

Normally your stance on racial feats seems be "make them available at level 1"

I'm not sure if you ever made any other racial feats like this.

Are you talking about "Brew Fleshcrafting Poison"? I think they could argue that it works in a similar way to the kitsune feats since it requires a certain caster level, not character level.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No, that's not even a racial feat.

I'm talking about Umbral Scion and Dark adept. Two drow racial feats that were designed to not be available at level 1.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ævux wrote:

No, that's not even a racial feat.

I'm talking about Umbral Scion and Dark adept. Two drow racial feats that were designed to not be available at level 1.

Also both designed for 3.5, so... different days, different rules, different philosophies.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ah, but that is exactly my point. That is the last time you made racial feats that were designed not to be taken at level 1. All other racial feats you've made since then have been takable at level one, or required a previous feat (thus making them takeable at level 3)

For a non-racial feat.. Eagle Knight Candidate.


Hmm, pretty much fine with the feats being based on BAB for consistency sake as long as the BAB requirements don't go past +10 ;)

I just hope that none of the new feats will require a caster level, otherwise only a few classes will actually be able to get all of them.

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