Help making a Foehammer? I don't know where to start.

Hi, so a friend of mine is starting up a new group, and we're going to be playing Pathfinder. I'd like to make a Dwarven Fighter, and I saw that they have a racial Archetype. This is my first time playing any d20 system more modern than a heavily customised version of AD&D, so I went on d20PFSRD, looked at all those Feats and... I'm lost. Paralysed by choice.

We're starting in two days, and basically all I know is that I want to make a Foehammer - the description looks fun. That means giving up all Armour Training and all Weapon Training past the first, mandatory Hammer one. So no Advanced Armor or Weapon Training, and no Armor or Weapon Mastery Feats for anything except Hammers unless I get Armor or Weapon Focuses.

I obviously want to take advantage of some of the class features I gain by giving those up, instead of just making an inferior generic Fighter, but I'm seeing all this advice saying Bull Rush and Trip are useless. If that's the case, is a Foehammer even worth it? If anyone could give me some help here, I'd really appreciate it.

The only decisions I've made to this point are a tentative stat spread, picking my optional Racial traits, my two normal Traits, and my first-level Feats. But any changes you guys suggest to them to improve will be taken into consideration. I'd /kinda/ like to make an Intimidate monster, but I also want Skill points, so...

Possible Stats (20-point buy)
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12+2 (14)
WIS 12+2 (14)
INT 12
CHA 9-2 (7)

Racial Trait Options
Fey Thoughts(Perception, ?Fly?) (Not sure about the Fly choice, but there's no point in choosing Acrobatics without Armour Training, is there?)
Relentless

Traits
Defender of the Society(Combat)
Glory of Old(Racial)

First-level Feats
Power Attack
Steel Soul

Equipment (175gc to start)
Fighter's Kit - 9
Chalk = 1
Explorer's Outfit - FREE
Leather Lamellar - 60
Dwarven Longhammer - 70
Spiked Gauntlet - 5
Dwarven Boulder Helmet - 20
10 left

Thanks, any help you guys can give will be appreciated. I'm completely lost at this point.

One suggestion is to focus on Cleave/Goblin Cleaver/Orc Hewer, Dwarven Hatred/Dwarven Seething, and possibly Improved Sunder/Smashing Style. Embrace being a "blunt instrument."

First of all: why foehammer? It's actually a terrible archetype. Unless it's for flavour reasons you are better off with a vanilla fighter, especially because you get to keep your weapon and armor training, which means advanced options later on.

Stats:

18
12
16
10
12
05

Racial trait options: no need for these, especially not fey thoughts. You are a dwarf and a fighter. There's nothing better for you than getting the Dwarven Hatred Style feats (Dwarven Hatred Style/Dwarven Seething/Dwarven Fury) and for those you need hatred, so don't trade it away.

First level traits, feats and equipment are OK but for leather lamellar.

With a +5 against spells, spell like abilities and poisons you are pretty good at defending yourself from magic from the get go which never hurts.

When you get able choose your advanced armor and weapon training options carefully.

Good AAT options are: Armor Specialization (extra AC is great for a melee fighter), Armored Juggernaut (save for adamantine full plate and eventually you'll get to DR11/-), Armored Master (Sprightly Armor Armor Mastery).

Good AWT options are: Armed Bravery (extra insurance against the bane of all fighter types: will saves), Defensive Weapon Training (so you are fighting with a 2 handed hammer? Well you may still want a little shield bonus anyway), Fighter’s Reflexes (not a priority like having good will saves but good reflexes help you against some nasty stuff), Trained Initiative (this, gloves of duelling, Sprightly Armor, Improved initiative and you'll have excellent initiative despite your low dex score), Warrior Spirit (the most powerful AWT option of them all, do not miss out on this, it really is a game changer for the fighter).

Also, to stay relevant in higher level play you will probably need Item Mastery feats: Flight Mastery is a must have, but also keep in mind Vision Mastery for see invisibility, Teleportation Mastery for even more mobility, Resistance Mastery for cheap energy resistance and Ability Mastery for better stats. You probably won't need them all but they are usually safe bets, for always useful feats.

One suggestion is to focus on Cleave/Goblin Cleaver/Orc Hewer, Dwarven Hatred/Dwarven Seething, and possibly Improved Sunder/Smashing Style. Embrace being a "blunt instrument."

Hm. To get Dwarven Hatred/Seething, I'd have to give up Fey Thoughts. And other ways to get Perception as a Class Skill are limited, without Advanced Weapon Training or other Traits.

And would building around Sunder, which Foehammers get SOME bonus to, but not as much as Bull Rush/Trip be enough to justify going Foehammer and losing access to all that they do? Or would I be honestly better off just going Dwarven Fighter, maybe with a different archetype?

EDIT: Reply while I was typing this one

First of all: why foehammer? It's actually a terrible archetype. Unless it's for flavour reasons you are better off with a vanilla fighter, especially because you get to keep your weapon and armor training, which means advanced options later on.

Stats:

18
12
16
10
12
05

Racial trait options: no need for these, especially not fey thoughts. You are a dwarf and a fighter. There's nothing better for you than getting the Dwarven Hatred Style feats (Dwarven Hatred Style/Dwarven Seething/Dwarven Fury) and for those you need hatred, so don't trade it away.

First level traits, feats and equipment are OK but for leather lamellar.

With a +5 against spells, spell like abilities and poisons you are pretty good at defending yourself from magic from the get go which never hurts.

It was basically just because I like the flavour text. But I've been feeling less and less love for it as I try to build it, so I'm willing to switch to Fighter. And your point about Hatred is taken.

For the stats: Geez, really? 5 Charisma? Guess I won't be Intimidating anyone! And 10 Wisdom... I guess those saves are covered by the Bravery upgrades, but do you really think that's the best? I could drop Strength down to 16 and have Wisdom 16, after Racial mods, or 14 and Dex 13. Wouldn't that be better?

The Lamellar was basically just so I could afford the Longhammer. If there's a better, cheaper weapon (I'm not married to Bludgeoning damage if I'm going Fighter, after all), I'll switch to it and get Chain Shirt.

Sunder is kind of a trap option. It's one of the hardest Combat Maneuvers to pull off because even after you beat the CMD check, you also have to get through the HP of the object you're striking (which can be surprisingly high). This is all assuming you are facing an enemy that actually has gear to sunder. Most don't.

To make matters worse, if you manage to give a weapon or armor the Broken condition, you need to have it Mended before you can sell it or use it. Of you manage to destroy it completely, you'll need to cast Make Whole. It's a pain in the butt.

If you want to make a Combat Maneuver based character, I'd recommend playing a Martial Master fighter. Then you can use Martial Flexibility to pick up whichever Maneuver feat is most applicable to the fight you're currently in.

Sunder is kind of a trap option. It's one of the hardest Combat Maneuvers to pull off because even after you beat the CMD check, you also have to get through the HP of the object you're striking (which can be surprisingly high). This is all assuming you are facing an enemy that actually has gear to sunder. Most don't.

To make matters worse, if you manage to give a weapon or armor the Broken condition, you need to have it Mended before you can sell it or use it. Of you manage to destroy it completely, you'll need to cast Make Whole. It's a pain in the butt.

If you want to make a Combat Maneuver based character, I'd recommend playing a Martial Master fighter. Then you can use Martial Flexibility to pick up whichever Maneuver feat is most applicable to the fight you're currently in.

Hm. Okay then. I think I'm going for a normal Dwarven Fighter, then.

In that case...

Hm.

Oh! Also, I forgot to mention, we're using the Stamina and Combat Tricks optional rules, so feats that influence that/have their usefulness altered by that have to be considered.

even without the foehammer archetype, you could make a sweet bullrushing, hammer wielding dwarf.

grab a lucerne hammer for reach, so that when the fire comes back to retaliate, you can get an attack of opportunity.

What about:

Two Weapon Fighting
Shield Slam (free bull rush on a shield slam)
Shield Brace (treat the lucerne hammer as one handed - now you can two weapon fight with it, and get your free shield bash bull rush as your offhand attack)
Merciless Rush (inflict damage equal to your str modifier on bull rushes)
Squash Flat (free trip attempts when you succeed on a bull rush)
Improved/Greater Trip when your opponent falls prone, you get an attack of
Combat Reflexes
Paired Opportunist
Advamced Weapon Training - Fighters Tactics

in one round, you can hit a guy with your shield and push them back 5', making them fall prone, and hit them with your lucerne hammer twice (once for two weapon fighting, once as an attack of opportunity). if any allies were nearby n they get to het your target for the movement from your bullrush, and then you get to hit him again due to their attack of opportunity. From there, the opponent likely can't hit you. If the for gets up, you and your allies you can hit them again.

^ this is a fun, very effective build against any enemy your own size or smaller.

It is arguable that it doesn't work great against creatures larger than you, but all melee characters struggle a bit against larger enemies. In actuality, a shielded character with a reach weapon is just about the best set up for dealing with larger enemies. Just don't expect to be landing a lot of bull rushes or trips unless you are lucky and well-geared.

You know...for a fun build. It's the Dwarven Undead/Necromancer Killer.

Dwarven Primalist Untouchable Bloodrager
Undead Bloodline

Str (15) Dex (14) Con (16) Int (12) Wis (16) Cha (5) HP (16) Saves (+5/+2/+3) Saves vs Magic (+8/+5/+6)

Alternate Racial
* Lore Keeper (Lorekeeper: nd the world around them. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (history) checks that pertain to dwarves or their enemies.)
* Barrow Warden (Dwarves with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to their AC against undead. This racial trait replaces defensive training and hatred.)
* Barrow Scholar (Dwarves with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks to identify undead and can attempt them untrained. This racial trait replaces stonecunning.)
* Shadow Hunter (Characters with this trait deal 50% weapon damage to incorporeal creatures when using non-magical weapons (including natural and unarmed attacks), as if using magic weapons. They also gain a +2 bonus on saving throws to remove negative levels, and recover physical ability damage from attacks by undead creatures at a rate of 2 points per ability score per day (rather than the normal 1 point per ability score per day). Dwarves can take this trait in place of weapon familiarity.)

Traits
* Bruising Intellect (intelligence for intimidate)
* Glory of Old (+3 total all saves vs magic)

Skills
* Knowledge History on dwarves and their enemies (+3)
* Knowledge Religion to identify undead (+3)
* Intimidate (+5)
* Spellcraft (+5)
* Knowledge Arcana (+5)
* Perception (+7)
* Survival (+7)

Lvl 1
* Rage (Str 19, Con 18 when raging, -2AC, +2 Will)
* Power Attack
* 30ft movement
* At 1st level, when you hit a creature with a charge attack, that creature becomes shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your bloodrager level (minimum 1). This effect does not cause an existing shaken or frightened condition (from this ability or another source) to turn into frightened or panicked. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Lvl 2
* At 2nd level, while bloodraging a spelleater gains fast healing 1

Lvl 3
* Furious Focus
* +2 bonus on saving throws against spells that he or an ally casts.

Lvl 4
* 2x Rage Powers (make 1 lesser beast totem)
* +1 Strength (Str 16 / Str 20 when raging)
* 8 + his bloodrager level spell resistance

Lvl 5
* Steel Soul

Lvl 8
* 2x Rage Powers (take beast totem, so you don't take AC penalty when raging and eventually gain AC)

Lvl 12
* 2x Rage Powers (take greater beast totem, which gives you pounce. This way you can charge in and get all of your attacks)

-------------

You get to move faster (ie: get into combat faster). You'll have pretty good saves. You'll hit harder (You usually want at least Str18 when power attacking with a big hammer. This is hard for dwarfs, but rage makes up for it.

Your character also gets to be an amazing undead hunter. Not only do you have the undead bloodline (The foul corruption of undeath is a part of you. Somewhere in the past, death became infused with your lineage. Your connection to the attributes of the undead bestows frightening power when your bloodrage) but your racial bonuses help out as well. You get to identify the undead, and you get to hit/AC bonuses against them.

You become great at charging. Not only do you make foes shaken, but you can also eventually get pounce so you can make all of your attacks.

And finally...

Because you get 3x more rage powers. I'd suggest taking Superstition (The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies) at lvl4. This stacks with your steel soul, so your saves against magic become insane.

Then at lvl8 take Witch Hunter (While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls against creatures possessing spells or spell-like abilities. This damage bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has obtained.) This comes out to being +3 damage against casters at that level, which really isn't bad.

And at lvl12 when you get pounce also take Eater of Magic (Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected by the spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability and gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the effect’s caster level (in the case of spell or spell-like abilities) or the CR of the effect’s creator (in the case of supernatural abilities). These temporary hit points last until damage is applied to them or 1 minute, whichever occurs first. )

To put it in perspective...

As a dwarf with steel soul and glory of old you are getting +5 to all saves vs spells. Superstition increases this to +10 to all saves vs spells. Given your pretty high stats for saves and with a simple cloak of resistance +1, if someone casts at you, you get...

Fort (+25) Ref (+17) Will (+22). And if you fail you get a re-roll with temporary hit points. Spell Resistance 20.

So if someone casts a spell at you they first need to overcome your spell resistance. If they do that they need to get through your saves. If they get through those insane saves, you get a re-roll that also gives temporary hit points.

----

As a bloodrager you'll be able to stand toe-to-toe with other martials. You'll be pretty much untouchable against enemy spellcasters, or at least such a tough nut to crack that after wasting a spell or two they leave you alone, and flavor wise you get to smack around the undead really well with a RP reason built in for it.

I actually like the Foehammer archetype. No, it's not the most powerful option, but it is fun.

I built mine with a dwarven longhammer, and a focus on tripping with reach and bull rushes to provoke from movement with Greater Bull Rush. Tripping should be useful, but I know bull rushing won't be a great option all the time. I use a dwarven boulder helmet against things that get within the reach of the longhammer.

He's still level 2, but here's what I've got so far:

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 5

Traits: Suspicious (+1 Sense Motive and it becomes class), Propitiation (+2 on appraise, craft, diplomacy, bluff, or knowledge: local - choose which one at the start of each day)

Feats:
1 - Combat Reflexes
1 - Power Attack
2 - Improved Bull Rush

Other feats I'm considering for the future (not sure on order yet):

6 - Greater Bull Rush
Lunge
Pushing Assault
Pin Down
Hard-Headed
Dented Helm
Cloven Helm
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Blind Fight
Iron Will
Steel Souled

Since my guy is for Pathfinder Society, I'm only looking at stuff up to level 11.

I've got a potential build, but I forgot something important. The prospective build is:

Stats:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 8

Okay, so progression order:
Lvl1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Lvl2: Weapon Focus
Lvl3: Furious Focus, AAT - Armoured Juggernaught
Lvl4: Barroom Brawler, Str + 1
Lvl5: Cosmopolitan(Perception, Sense Motive), Weapon Training - Axes
Lvl6: Second Chance (Train out of at 12)
Lvl7: Cunning, AAT - Armour Specialisation(Full Plate)
Lvl8: Difficult Swings, Str + 1
Lvl9: Steel Soul, AWT - Warrior Spirit
Lvl10: Greater Weapon Focus
Lvl11: Teleportation Mastery, AAT - Armoured Master(Sprightly Armour)
Lvl12: Extra Stamina, Wis +1, Replace Second Chance with Push the Limits
Lvl13: Dimensional Agility, AWT - Abundant Tactics
Lvl14: Dazing Assault
Lvl15: Dimensional Assault
Lvl16: Extra Stamina, Int +1
Lvl17: Dimensional Dervish, AWT - Armed Bravery
Lvl18: Greater Penetrating Strike
Lvl19: Dimensional Savant
Lvl20: Extra Stamina, Int +1

Alternatively, those two Int upgrades can be swapped with another two Strength, or two Constitution, or whatever. Advice would be appreciated on that.

The problem is, when I was making that build, I completely forgot about Weapon Trick: Choke Up. When would I slot that in, and what would I give up? Would it be one of the two Level 1 things, or would it just be an early Feat? And one of the ones I'm considering giving up is the third Extra Stamina, is that a good one to ditch, or would there be something better?

Apart from adding in Choke Up, would else would you do with that build? What you shuffle around in that, is there something I don't have in there that you think is essential? I don't have the Dwarven Hatred/Seething tree, because I got advised elsewhere that spending three feats on an ability that then only triggers on taking damage, when planning to take damage is a bad idea in Pathfinder, was... less than wise. Would you guys agree with that? If not, why not? What would you change to fit in Hatred/Seething?

It's Wednesday night here, we start on Saturday. Any help would be highly appreciated.

Greater Penetrating Strike has a prereq of Penetrating Strike, which you don't have.

You're getting huge amounts of stamina with 4 feats spent on it, but I'm not sure what you're planning to spend it on. Speeding up barroom brawler? Rerolling AoOs via the combat reflexes trick? Those are nice but not 4 feats nice IMO. I may be missing something.

Cosmopolitan is almost strictly inferior to Additional Traits. Also you don't really have enough skill points to spread them around much; that your Int bonus goes up 1 at level 20 is not greatly relevant to a feat you got at level 5. If you're going to drop a feat for Weapon Trick (polearms), this is the one. Or spend that feat on Advanced Weapon Training (versatile training: polearms) instead - the 1 per 5 levels bit applies only to the feat, which is counted separately to the AWT you get by dropping weapon groups from weapon training.

Greater Penetrating Strike has a prereq of Penetrating Strike, which you don't have.

Huh, so I don't. It was in there when I started, I must have taken it out at some point, meaning to put it in at a different level, but forgotten to.

You're getting huge amounts of stamina with 4 feats spent on it, but I'm not sure what you're planning to spend it on. Speeding up barroom brawler? Rerolling AoOs via the combat reflexes trick? Those are nice but not 4 feats nice IMO. I may be missing something.

If you are, I am too. I HAD a plan for them... wonder what it was? Should have written it down. I've done much of my planning for this character while exhausted, so there's probably any number of problems with it. It's entirely possible that the feats that I was taking all that Stamina for were in an earlier version of the character, and when I took them out I didn't click to take out all the Stamina stuff, too.

Cosmopolitan is almost strictly inferior to Additional Traits. Also you don't really have enough skill points to spread them around much; that your Int bonus goes up 1 at level 20 is not greatly relevant to a feat you got at level 5. If you're going to drop a feat for Weapon Trick (polearms), this is the one. Or spend that feat on Advanced Weapon Training (versatile training: polearms) instead - the 1 per 5 levels bit applies only to the feat, which is counted separately to the AWT you get by dropping weapon groups from weapon training.

So, what, take Militant Merchant and... Suspicious? I was planning on taking Defender of Society and Glory of Old, so that's Combat and Regional taken. Militant Merchant is Racial, and the only non-Religion, non-Campaign one I can take that's not Regional, and Suspicious is Social, and again, the only non-Campaign/Regional/Religion one left.

As for having the Skill Points to up multiple things, I was hoping Cunning would help there, which is a retroactive 1 Skill Point per Hit Die, which is basically an extra 1/level.
Alternatively, ditching two Con for two Int is always an option, if one I'm a little leery of taking...
Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'the 1 per 5 levels bit applies only to the feat, which is counted separately to the AWT you get by dropping weapon groups from weapon training.' - I don't see anything that says I can take AWT options on any levels but the ones that I would otherwise get Weapon Training on, or anything that says that Versatile Training is an exception - could you point it out, please?

Advanced Weapon Training, the feat. It isn't specific to versatile training. I admit I forgot you had to take the hammers weapon group, which makes versatile training social skills &/or ride only, probably not what you were after.

Actually there's a problem there. I just noticed Foehammers don't get additional weapon groups to drop for AWT, or armor training at all, which means you'd need to spend 3 more feats just for the AWTs selected and couldn't get the AATs at all. Back to the drawing board I think. This is why people recommend against fighter archetypes which give up weapon or armor training.

Those traits work. So would insular (racial) and seeker (social), and probably other combos I don't know.

If you spread cunning's 1 skill point/level between 2 skills it'll help but obviously won't max either. I guess you could start with some skills you'll drop later (climb & swim have less use at later levels for example), or spend some skill points before they become class skills.

Suppose you take one extra stamina feat & drop the other 2, also push the limits & second chance. Put weapon trick (polearms) in at L6. Weapon spec & greater will be better value than penetrating strike & greater - many kinds of DR can be defeated. That leaves you with the L20 feat which might as well be improved critical, given the fighters capstone.

Advanced Weapon Training, the feat. It isn't specific to versatile training. I admit I forgot you had to take the hammers weapon group, which makes versatile training social skills &/or ride only, probably not what you were after.

Actually there's a problem there. I just noticed Foehammers don't get additional weapon groups to drop for AWT, or armor training at all, which means you'd need to spend 3 more feats just for the AWTs selected and couldn't get the AATs at all. Back to the drawing board I think. This is why people recommend against fighter archetypes which give up weapon or armor training.

Yeah, that's why I ended up going for something not a Foehammer - I actually have another topic on here, called 'forget the Foehammer - Dwarven Fighter', but I accidentally put tonight's post here, instead, and didn't realise my mistake until just now. My brain is obviously firing on ALL cylinders lately, isn't it?

If you spread cunning's 1 skill point/level between 2 skills it'll help but obviously won't max either. I guess you could start with some skills you'll drop later (climb & swim have less use at later levels for example), or spend some skill points before they become class skills.

Suppose you take one extra stamina feat & drop the other 2, also push the limits & second chance. Put weapon trick (polearms) in at L6. Weapon spec & greater will be better value than penetrating strike & greater - many kinds of DR can be defeated. That leaves you with the L20 feat which might as well be improved critical, given the fighters capstone.

So something like this:

Lvl1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Lvl2: Weapon Focus
Lvl3: Furious Focus, AAT - Armoured Juggernaught
Lvl4: Barroom Brawler, Str + 1
Lvl5: Cosmopolitan(Perception, Sense Motive), Weapon Training - Axes
Lvl6: Weapon Trick: Polearms
Lvl7: Cunning, AAT - Armour Specialisation(Full Plate)
Lvl8: Difficult Swings, Str + 1
Lvl9: Steel Soul, AWT - Warrior Spirit
Lvl10: Greater Weapon Focus
Lvl11: Weapon Specialisation, AAT - Armoured Master(Sprightly Armour)
Lvl12: AWT - Versatile Training(Thrown), Con +1
Lvl13: Extra Stamina, AWT - Abundant Tactics
Lvl14: Dazing Assault
Lvl15: AWT - Versatile Training(Close)
Lvl16: Dwarven Hatred Style, Wis +1
Lvl17: Dwarven Seething, AWT - Armed Bravery
Lvl18: Greater Weapon Specialisation
Lvl19: Dwarven Fury
Lvl20: Improved Critical, Str +1
?

What would you suggest for the stat changes? I need to drop one purchase point's worth - my proposed stats are twenty-one points worth, not twenty. Maybe ditch a point of Con? And then buy a point of that instead of a point of Wis at 12, delaying the Wis point until 16, and getting it-doesn't-really-matter at 20? As above?