After reading a thread or two on Ninja class, I think I finally decided how I want to convert it. I've based it off the Rogue, but made enough class modifications that it is a new class, but I think it's relatively balanced. See below and give feedback (please make it on topic, 'you sux' is not valid feedback.
:)
Hit Die : D8
BAB : Medium
Good Saves : Reflex
Poor Saves : Fortitude, Will
Proficiencies : Proficient with all Simple weapons, All Monk weapons, plus the Hand Crossbow, Shortbow, Short sword, and Bastard Sword (Exotic, one-handed). Not proficient with any Armor or Shields. (NOTE: Slightly different than the CAdv proficiencies, I always see Ninja's using a Katana or a Ninja-To, and if doing two-weapon a wakizashi (short sword)).
Skill Points : 6 + Int Bonus/Level
Class Skills : Acrobatics (Dex), , Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str)
Level AC Abilities
01 st +0 ki Power, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
02 nd +0 Evasion, Ghost Step (Invisible), Ninja Talent
03 rd +0 Sneak Attack +2d6
04 th +0 Ninja Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05 th +1 Sneak Attack +3d6
06 th +1 ki Dodge, Ninja Talent
07 th +1 Sneak Attack +4d6
08 th +1 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Ninja Talent, Ghost Strike
09 th +1 Sneak Attack +5d6
10 th +2 Advanced Talents, Ghost Step (Ethereal), Ninja Talent
11 th +2 Sneak Attack +6d6
12 th +2 Ninja Talent
13 th +2 Sneak Attack +7d6
14 th +2 Ninja Talent
15 th +3 Sneak Attack +8d6
16 th +3 Ninja Talent
17 th +3 Sneak Attack +9d6
18 th +3 Greater ki Dodge, Ninja Talent
19 th +3 Sneak Attack +10d6
20 th +4 Ghost Walk, Ninja Talent
ki Power : This works exactly like the ki power from CAdv Ninja.
Sneak Attack : This works exactly like the Rogue Sneak Attack Ability.
Trapfinding : This works exactly like the Rogue Class Ability
Evasion : This works exactly like the Monk Class Ability, but only works when the Ninja is wearing no armor and is not encumbered.
Ghost Step : This works exactly like the Ghost Step Class Ability from CAdv Ninja.
Ninja Talent : These are like Rogue Talents, see below.
Uncanny Dodge : This works exactly like the Rogue class ability.
ki Dodge : This works exactly like the ki dodge ability of the CAdv Ninja.
Improved Uncanny Dodge : This works exactly like the Rogue class ability.
Ghost Strike : This works exactly like the CAdv Ninja Class Ability.
Advanced Talents : These are like Rogue Advanced Talents, see below.
Greater ki Dodge : This works exactly like the CAdv Ninja Class Ability.
Ghost Walk : This works exactly like the CAdv Ninja Class Ability.
Ninja Talents
Ninja's select Ninja Talents, which are based off the Rogue Talents. Levels of Rogue and Ninja stack for determining which type of Talents (Advanced or Normal) the Ninja/Rogue can take. They are still restricted to taking only Ninja Talents for Ninja Levels, and Rogue Talents for Rogue Levels.
Remove the following Rogue Talents from the Rogue List for Ninjas : Bleeding Attack, Quick Disable, Resiliancy, Slow Reactions, Trap Sense
Add the following Ninja Talents.
Speed Climb : See Ninja class ability from CAdv (Pg 9). Ignore level 7 requirement.
Poison Use : See Ninja class ability from CAdv (Pg 8). Ignore level 3 requirement.
Advanced Acrobatics : Ninja gains a +2 bonus to Acrobatic and Climb checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 10th, and +6 at 16th levels
Great Leap : Ninja is considered to make Acrobatics(Jump) checks as if they had both a running start and the Run feat.
Advanced Ninja Talents
Ninja's can select Advanced Ninja Talents starting at level 10.
Remove the following Rogue Advanced Talents from the Rogue List : Crippling Strike, Dispelling Attack
Add the following Ninja Talents.
Improved Poison Use : See Ninja class ability from CAdv (Pg 9). Ignore level 9 requirement.
Ghost Sight : The Ninja can see Etherial creatures as easily as she sees material creatures and objects. At 16th level or higher, this ability allows Invisible creatures to be seen as well.
Ghost Mind : See Ninja class ability from CAdv (Pg 9). Ignore level 14 requirement.
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That's it, comments?
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My own effort felt a little flat, and I think it's because there are no player choices involved. I like the ninja talent idea.
I personally think it's worth converting the ki stuff to work similarly to the monk's ki abilities, so that it's clear they're stackable (see link above).
I'm also not a fan of the all-too-generic feel of advanced acrobatics (formerly acrobatics) - my answer was to create abilities (that would work well as talents) that expand on the idea of acrobatics, without just sayin', "+X to Acrobatics."
My own effort felt a little flat, and I think it's because there are no player choices involved. I like the ninja talent idea.
Thanks, I kept thinking about it, and I liked the idea of a Rogue specialist as a Ninja, but I thought the Rogue didn't quite capture the fluff as classed. But a little tweaking and it works very nicely I think.
I personally think it's worth converting the ki stuff to work similarly to the monk's ki abilities, so that it's clear they're stackable (see link above).
Interesting concept. I honestly just wanted to get it in with a minimum of rewriting or custom concepts. Plus, the Ninja ki abilities are not all that powerful, and the class as is (I think) is relatively balanced against other classes (like the Rogue it's descended from). I'm afraid if I put too much effort into the ki stuff, then it'll push it over the edge.
I'm also not a fan of the all-too-generic feel of advanced acrobatics (formerly acrobatics) - my answer was to create abilities (that would work well as talents) that expand on the idea of acrobatics, without just sayin', "+X to Acrobatics."
Yep, that's the weakest part of it, I acknowledge, from a fluff standpoint. The Ninja uses Acrobatics so much though that it's a huge benefit for the class though.
Maybe add a talent or 3 that allow the ninja to use their ki as the monk does. I also like the much earlier evasion.
I'm playing a Dark Whisper Gnome Ninja with the Beta Rules, and it's a real blast to play.....except against Constructs with DR 10! The Dark Creature template gives me +7 to Stealth (overlaps with the whisper gnome racial bonus), Hide in Plain Sight, and +10 of speed, so I'm fast and small, so REALLY stealthy.
This seems like a trivially refitted rogue, now that you've junked Sucky Strike. While I can understand the desire to reflavor the rogue for a certain game, wouldn't sub levels be a more efficient way to do this?
Well, that was sort of the idea I had, minimal intrusion into the existing core system. It gives the flavor that most people seem to have in mind for the Ninja, while keeping new and exotic systems to a minimum. The ki abilities are kept from the WoTC version, and the non-ki abilities are added in as Ninja Talents, so if you want a combat oriented ninja, you can get that. If you want a minor magic using Ninja, you can take the Rogue Magic talents, if you want a stealth/speed ninja, you can take those talents. The only problem I have with Sub(stitution?) levels is that when I tried to put those in B complicated than this (Sub A at level 4, sub B at level 8, unless you didn't take A at 4, then you can' t have B at 8, but you can Take C).
Maybe add a talent or 3 that allow the ninja to use their ki as the monk does. I also like the much earlier evasion.
Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I'll try to work on something when I have the chance. The reason I hesitate though, is I tried to keep the 'remove X talents' and 'add X talents' even. Didn't quite get it (The Ninja ended up with one more talent than the Rogue), and I hesitate to add in 2-3 more Talents for the Ninja. :(
I'm playing a Dark Whisper Gnome Ninja with the Beta Rules, and it's a real blast to play.....except against Constructs with DR 10! The Dark Creature template gives me +7 to Stealth (overlaps with the whisper gnome racial bonus), Hide in Plain Sight, and +10 of speed, so I'm fast and small, so REALLY stealthy.
Ouch, sounds painful. Probably the only way you can make the ninja as written effective though. His Sudden Strike is really pretty useless without a really high bluff or some way to attack from the shadows routinely. :( I played one for about 6 months in a campaign. I could do some interesting stuff, but in combat, I really was a one-trick pony (invisible charge sudden strike, lather rinse repeat).
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... and I hesitate to add in 2-3 more Talents for the Ninja. :(
If you need justification for doing so, remember that "splat" classes do not receive the attention and expansion the core classes do, specifically the rogue will receive new talents in the APG, surely some of which will be inappropriate for the ninja.
I have a player in my group that is a ninja. I tried to talk him out of it during character selection, but he was intent on being a ninja. Then guess what happened. Yep, he got bored with it and said it sucked. The only thing "cool" he could do was turn invisible a few times a day. So, we came up with a cool new abilities for him to use his ki on besides turning invisible. The abilites are: ghost step (same), ki dash, ki focus, ghost strike (little different), and ki quickness. There is a lesser and greater version of each one. I don't have the specifics on each one with me now cuz I'm at work. Ssshhh! LoL. Tonite, when I get home I will post the specifics.
Ouch, sounds painful. Probably the only way you can make the ninja as written effective though. His Sudden Strike is really pretty useless without a really high bluff or some way to attack from the shadows routinely. :( I played one for about 6 months in a campaign. I could do some interesting stuff, but in combat, I really was a one-trick pony (invisible charge sudden strike, lather rinse repeat).
I'm playing a Dark Whisper Gnome Ninja with the Beta Rules, and it's a real blast to play.....except against Constructs with DR 10! The Dark Creature template gives me +7 to Stealth (overlaps with the whisper gnome racial bonus), Hide in Plain Sight, and +10 of speed, so I'm fast and small, so REALLY stealthy.Yeah, I'm lucky I'm playing in a campaign with all +1 ECL races and/or templates. Otherwise, I think the ninja would be hurting. That template-sourced Hide in Plain Sight is a real gift.
What we did with the ninja in my group to give it some more flavor is this. We left the basic achitecture of the class the same. So it still gets all the regular class abilities except the ki usage ones (sucky strike still there).
Level 2: Ghost Step (invisible)
Level 4: Ki Dash-Rapidly move up to your move speed in any direction as a swift action(like Pikichu in Smash Bros)
Level 6: Ki Focus-Add 1d4 damage, and Wis bonus to attacks against one enemy
Level 8: Ghost Strike-same except swift action and lasts 1 round
Level 10: Ki Quickness-haste effect for 1 round
Level 12: Ghost Step (ethereal)
Level 14: Imp Ki Dash-enter ethereal plane while dashing (kinda like teleporting)
Level 16: Imp Ki Focus-Add 2d4 damage,double crit, Wis bonus to attacks against single enemy
Level 18: Imp Ghost Strike-Also lets attacks be as touch attacks
Level 20: Imp Ki Quickness-Kind of like TimeStop except the ninja can attack enemies. I just treat them as stunned (without dropping stuff)
We are still playing regular 3.5 and are at level 9. So far, the ninja is not overpowered, just has more stuff to do besides turn invisible every other round. He loves Ki Dash. Move speed as a swift action!
Feel free to comment, critique, or just plain talk crap.
What we did with the ninja in my group to give it some more flavor is this. We left the basic achitecture of the class the same. So it still gets all the regular class abilities except the ki usage ones (sucky strike still there).
...
We are still playing regular 3.5 and are at level 9. So far, the ninja is not overpowered, just has more stuff to do besides turn invisible every other round. He loves Ki Dash. Move speed as a swift action!Feel free to comment, critique, or just plain talk crap.
Looks interesting. I guess it's more a personal preference for supernatural abilities over more mundane stuff. I've always preferred (despite actually liking Naruto) the more stealthy/less flashy ninja archetypes. The kind who can do some supernatural tricks, but who do so as a small part of their schtick.
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Ouch, sounds painful. Probably the only way you can make the ninja as written effective though. His Sudden Strike is really pretty useless without a really high bluff or some way to attack from the shadows routinely. :( I played one for about 6 months in a campaign. I could do some interesting stuff, but in combat, I really was a one-trick pony (invisible charge sudden strike, lather rinse repeat).
Your group didn't realize that Ghost Step lasts one round, huh? If you check the wording, it says 'become invisible'. Not 'as the invisibility spell'. So it doesn't end when you make an attack action. Which mean Sudden Strike full attacks are a go.
Ouch, sounds painful. Probably the only way you can make the ninja as written effective though. His Sudden Strike is really pretty useless without a really high bluff or some way to attack from the shadows routinely. :( I played one for about 6 months in a campaign. I could do some interesting stuff, but in combat, I really was a one-trick pony (invisible charge sudden strike, lather rinse repeat).Your group didn't realize that Ghost Step lasts one round, huh? If you check the wording, it says 'become invisible'. Not 'as the invisibility spell'. So it doesn't end when you make an attack action. Which mean Sudden Strike full attacks are a go.
No, we knew it. But we started at Level 3, and played every other week for 6 months. I never actually got multiple attacks, because I never hit level 8 (got up to 7). That whole full attack invisible is only useful at level 8+.
As I said, invis, move, attack, lather, rinse, repeat.
The Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic gives you Hide in Plain Sight as a racial ability. There are even some magic items that let you acquire the Dark Creature template temporarily. It's really fun: +7 to Stealth (actually +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently), Superior LLV, Darkvision, +10 Speed, Cold Res 10, Hide in Plain Sight. All for +1 ECL.
The Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic gives you Hide in Plain Sight as a racial ability. There are even some magic items that let you acquire the Dark Creature template temporarily. It's really fun: +7 to Stealth (actually +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently), Superior LLV, Darkvision, +10 Speed, Cold Res 10, Hide in Plain Sight. All for +1 ECL.
Yep,
Problem is that Paizo got rid of the ECL mechanic. Unless they put something back in in the Bestiary, we're going to have an issue converting any templates that affect ECL. :(While I agree that ECL was clunky, it's one one of the few places where Paizo has (so far) dropped the ball. I don't mind them getting rid of it, but they didn't replace it with anything, so that breaks a LOT of backwards compatibility.
If they don't fix it in the bestiary, I am expecting a lot of homebrew/house ruled messages back and forth to work it out.
Actually, that seems really fitting for what the ninja would have at his disposal, though I would still recommend swapping sneak attack back in. That ki dash is just begging to be able to flank and get the benefit. Other than that though, it looks pretty good to me for 3.5.
(I took a different approach with my revision of the Ninja, gave him way better ki powers, more ki points, and augmented the various ki use feats to really be worth taking. It came out pretty well, if you want I guess I could email it to you.)
We left Sudden Strike in there because he liked the roleplaying aspect of it. His vision of a ninja (obviously altered through the entertainment industry) was a solo/loner type. Therefore, having group tactics such as flanking/sneak attack wasn't his thing. So, that's why we left it there. We have a tendancy to "ROLEplay" instead of "ROLLplay". Man we need to get with the times. We even have a Hexblade in group too! I felt sorry for him cuz he sucked at first. So I just made his curses to have no save to resist. He only gets a few a day, so it sucks when it gets resisted. Simple quick fix and now he is a big contributor to enemy ownage!
And yeah, feel free to email me any kind of homebrew stuff, house rules and like. We run a ton of house rules and the like.
The whole party is +1 ECL races (catfolk, chaos gnome, dark whisper gnome, feral kobold, mineral warrior halforc, with back up aasimar, tiefling, and homebrewed raven-folk). So that evens the playing field somewhat.
Personally, I think the whole ECL thing should be incorporated into the non-class dead levels (2, 6, 10, 14, 18), where the extra-powerful races get their increases there. The regular races would get racial traits at those levels too.
Finally! Some else realizes that a monk/rogue does make a ninja!Thanks, I kept thinking about it, and I liked the idea of a Rogue specialist as a Ninja, but I thought the Rogue didn't quite capture the fluff as classed.
Yeah,
I have trouble with the concept of all Ninja's being Lawful (that pesky assassination thing). I don't have an issue with some lawful ninjas, some good ninjas, although lawful good would be a stretch. But with a Monk/Rogue, all your Ninja's end up Lawful. And, you can't multiclass Monk/Rogue freely, since you can't go back into Monk again (unless Paizo changed that).
We left Sudden Strike in there because he liked the roleplaying aspect of it. His vision of a ninja (obviously altered through the entertainment industry) was a solo/loner type. Therefore, having group tactics such as flanking/sneak attack wasn't his thing. So, that's why we left it there. We have a tendancy to "ROLEplay" instead of "ROLLplay". Man we need to get with the times. We even have a Hexblade in group too! I felt sorry for him cuz he sucked at first. So I just made his curses to have no save to resist. He only gets a few a day, so it sucks when it gets resisted. Simple quick fix and now he is a big contributor to enemy ownage!And yeah, feel free to email me any kind of homebrew stuff, house rules and like. We run a ton of house rules and the like.
Yeah, we roleplay too. Honestly, we have about one combat every other game, and the rest is Roleplay. I give out EXP for roleplay (usually as much or more as for combat). So everyone is happy (except the guy who always sits there during RP and get's the lowest award for RP, he's really only happy when we do combat, he's more of a rollplayer).
I really like this Ninja class. Might shock people since I was one of the ones that wanted people to look at using the rogue instead. Thing is, you did use the rogue. Adding the Ki abilities is fine. Now if somebody just wanted a less mystical Ninja, all they would need to do is 'steal' the talents for a rogue build. At least with this, the Ninja doesn't necessarily get 'out ninja-ed' by the Rogue. That was my biggest complaint. If a core class is better than the new class, then it will most likely NOT see play. Keep up the good work.
I really like this Ninja class. Might shock people since I was one of the ones that wanted people to look at using the rogue instead. Thing is, you did use the rogue. Adding the Ki abilities is fine. Now if somebody just wanted a less mystical Ninja, all they would need to do is 'steal' the talents for a rogue build. At least with this, the Ninja doesn't necessarily get 'out ninja-ed' by the Rogue. That was my biggest complaint. If a core class is better than the new class, then it will most likely NOT see play. Keep up the good work.
Agreed, and that was one of the things we kept in mind with the samurai class. It was hard to hit the sweet-spot between "This is too weak, just use a fighter with Exotic Weapon Proficiency in katana" and "This is overpowered and game-breaking" but I think we captured the class adequately.
I can understand the sentiment, alot of my stealthy characters didn't really like working with allies and usually depended on other methods of getting their SA/SS damage, but it's a good option to have, and isn't it awesome when the fighter's holding off some big baddie and the sneak pops up, launches a full attack and bam, drops the thing on the spot? Beautiful roleplay opportunities afterwards.
"You know I could have handled that."
"Hm, I didn't notice."
"Why don't you say that to my face."
*Ninja dash behind the fighter*
"I'd rather say it to your kidneys, so play nice musclehead."
Oh, and to email it I'd have to have your email lol.
Oh my bad. I thought you were a psychic. Its danecope@ymail.com
I really like this Ninja class. Might shock people since I was one of the ones that wanted people to look at using the rogue instead. Thing is, you did use the rogue. Adding the Ki abilities is fine. Now if somebody just wanted a less mystical Ninja, all they would need to do is 'steal' the talents for a rogue build. At least with this, the Ninja doesn't necessarily get 'out ninja-ed' by the Rogue. That was my biggest complaint. If a core class is better than the new class, then it will most likely NOT see play. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. So far, my fellow GM (who's running while I take a break) likes it too, as well as a player who has seen it. I think for people who like the flashier Naruto style ninjas, a little multiclassing with Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard/Druid/Cleric would work well. Either that, or a prestige class that get's spells, but no sneak attack increase to balance it out.
Actually, as I type it, I like that idea. Ninja's that want to go in for magical ability would give up sneak attack progression for picking up some spells. I might have to work that up (probably put in a requirement that they have both the magical talents).
Ok,
Came up with a PRC for Ninja that builds on the idea of a Ninja that has mystic powers. Feel free to comment and rip it apart, but I'd appreciate constructive comments better*.
As you'll see below, I stuck with the idea of minimal new rule creation. Instead, I adapted existing rules and pointed out exceptions to the standard rules. All Mystic Ninja Powers duplicate existing spells, but beneficial spells only affect the Mystic Ninja. Non-Beneficial spells (attack spells or spells which which alter the environment like obscuring mist or darkness) may be used as normal.
*Note: So far, people have been pretty good about this, so this is just the obligatory request. :)
Class : Mystic Ninja
Hitdie: d8
Requirements : Ability to cast at least one 1st level spell of any type. Ten ranks in Stealth. Ten Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Must possess the sneak attack ability, or similar class feature.
Skill points : 6 + Int Bonus
Class Skills : Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (Arcana), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str)
Role : The Mystic Ninja's role is to expand upon the supernatural abilities they have learned in their career to manifest supernatural abilities that are akin to spells. A Mystic Ninja is capable of manifesting powers which rival the spells of many schools, although they don't actually cast spells.
Alignment : The Mystic Ninja tends toward Neutral or Evil, although there are rare individuals who are Good. Mystic Ninja's often break the law as part of their assignments, and thus are usually Neutral or Chaotic, although again, there are the occasional rare individual who is Lawful.
Proficiencies : Proficient with all Simple weapons, All Monk weapons, plus the Hand Crossbow, Shortbow, Short sword, and Bastard Sword (Exotic, one-handed). Not proficient with any Armor or Shields. (NOTE: Slightly different than the CAdv proficiencies, I always see Ninja's using a Katana or a Ninja-To, and if doing two-weapon a wakizashi (short sword)).
Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
01st | +0| +0 | +2 | +2 | 1 | -- | -- | -- | --
02nd | +1| +0 | +3 | +3 | 2 | -- | -- | -- | --
03rd | +2| +1 | +3 | +3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | --
04th | +3| +1 | +4 | +4 | 3 | 2 | -- | -- | --
05th | +3| +1 | +4 | +4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | --
06th | +4| +2 | +5 | +5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | -- | --
07th | +5| +2 | +5 | +5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | --
08th | +6| +2 | +6 | +6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | --
09th | +6| +3 | +6 | +6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
10th | +7| +3 | +7 | +7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
Level|Special
01st |Ninja Powers, Ninja Tricks
02nd |Stealthy Powers
03rd |Ninja Talent
04th |Power Penetration (+2)
05th |Sneak Attack (+1d6)
06th |Ninja Talent
07th |Mystic Sneak Attack
08th |Power Penetration (+4)
09th |Ninja Talent
10th |Ultimate Stealth Powers
Powers Known
Level|Trk|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
01st | 4 | 2 | -- | -- | -- | --
02nd | 5 | 2 | -- | -- | -- | --
03rd | 5 | 3 | 1 | -- | -- | --
04th | 5 | 3 | 1 | -- | -- | --
05th | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | -- | --
06th | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | -- | --
07th | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | --
08th | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | --
09th | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
10th | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
Ninja Powers : While the Mystic Ninja doesn't cast spells as other magic users do, he is still limited to a certain number of uses of their powers each day, which is roughly analogous to the spells per day a spellcaster receives. The Mystic Ninja get's a number of Powers per day as shown on the chart above. Each power exactly duplicates the spell it is named after, with the following exceptions.
Materials : The Mystic Ninja ignores any material requirement the spell has.
Caster Level : The Mystic Ninja uses his total level in both the Mystic Ninja class and the class he originally had which granted his spell casting ability and the class which granted his sneak attack ability as his caster level. Thus, a Ninja 10/Mystic Ninja 5 is a 15th level caster. A Rogue 5/Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Ninja 3 would have a caster level of 9 (5 from Rogue, 1 from Sorcerer, 3 from Mystic Ninja).
Spell Failure : A Mystic Ninja does not suffer Arcane Spell failure provided they are wearing no or light armor. A Mystic Ninja may not use their powers if they are wearing armor heavier than Light, nor if they are using a shield.
Supernatural : Mystic Ninja powers are Supernatural. They do not function in Anti-Magic fields, and may be dispelled by dispel magic. However, they are not magic, and thus a spell caster cannot make a spellcraft check to determine what power is being manifested. A Knowledge (Arcana) check may be made instead to determine the power being manifested. A Mystic Ninja who uses a Power provokes an attack of opportunity unless he does so Defensively. The Combat Casting feat provides a +4 bonus to his check to do so. Instead of making a Spellcraft check, he must instead make a Bluff check at the same DC as if he were casting a spell of his powers level.
Self Only : Beneficial powers (such as Detect Magic, Misdirection or Blur for example) only affect the Mystic Ninja himself.
Uses per day : A Mystic Ninja gains additional uses of powers per day based on INT as if they were gaining additional spells. A Mystic Ninja must have an INT score of 10+ the Level of the Power to manifest it.
Ninja tricks : A Mystic Ninja learns a set number of 'Tricks'. These are minor powers and are equivalent in strength to Orisons or Cantrips. A Mystic Ninja may use any Ninja Tricks he knows as a standard action.
Stealthy Powers : At 2nd level, the Mystic Ninja learns to activate his powers in a more stealthy manner. He may suppress either the Somatic or Verbal component of a power (but not both). If a spell has only a Verbal or Somatic component, then he may suppress that single component.
Ninja Talent : The Mystic Ninja may select a Ninja Talent from the list of Ninja Talents and Advanced Ninja Talents the Ninja has access to. In addition, a Mystic Ninja may use a Ninja Talent to learn any Power he wishes of any level he can use.
Power Penetration : At 4th level, the Mystic Ninja gains a +2 check on his check to overcome Spell Resistance when using his Mystic Ninja powers. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level.
Sneak Attack : At 5th level, the Mystic Ninja gains a +1d6 bonus to his sneak attack ability (or the ability that mimics it, if he does not have sneak attack).
Mystic Sneak Attack : At 7th level, the Mystic Ninja gains the ability to merge his powers into his sneak attacks. As a swift action the Mystic Ninja may activate any power he knows as part of his attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack strikes, it does all the damage from his attack (including sneak attack damage) and also adds on the power affect as well if the power is an attack power. If the power is a power that only affects the Mystic Ninja, he gains the benefits of the power (for example, he gains endure elements, or he teleports). If the Ninja misses with a ranged attack, and the power was an attack power, it will activate when the ranged weapon strikes anything, even a tree or an ally. If the weapon passes beyond 30 feet, the power is discharged.
Ultimate Stealth Powers : At level 10, the Mystic Ninja ignores all Verbal and Somatic components to all his powers, able to manifest them without moving or speaking as a standard action.
List of Mystic Ninja Powers & Tricks
Ninja Tricks : acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, know direction, light, message, open/close, ray of frost
Ninja Powers (1st level) : animate rope, burning hands, comprehend languages, confusion (lesser), disguise self, endure elements, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, hold portal, hypnotism, jump, longstrider, obscuring mist, pass without trace, shocking grasp, sleep, undetectable alignment
Ninja Powers (2nd level) : arcane lock, acid arrow, blindness/deafness, blur, darkness, darkvision, daze monster, flame blade, glitterdust, knock, mirror image, misdirection, rope trick, scorching ray, see invisibility, silence, sound burst, spider climb, whispering wind, web
Ninja Powers (3rd level) : blink, deep slumber, dispel magic, flame arrow, gaseous form, haste, hold person, lightning bolt, meld into stone, nondetection, phantom steed,water breathing, water walk
Ninja Powers (4th level) : air walk, detect scrying, dimension door, freedom of movement, invisibility (greater), poison, sending, shout, solid fog, wall of fire, wall of ice
Ninja Powers (5th level) : dream, cone of cold, mislead, passwall, plane shift, shadow walk, slay living, teleport, true seeing, wall of stone, wall of thorns
For the PrC, I think you might want to limit the Ninja Talents to the regular talents. No Advanced Talents. I feel that if he is going for the magic, he will not concentrate on other advanced areas. Magic takes the place of those, as well as sneak attack. He might need to give up something else, too. I keep thinking maybe 4 skill points, or lesser BAB/HD. It makes since, but I don't know if it takes away from the rest. A difficult concept to completely balance.
The Mystic Ninja PrC above seems like it is stacking too many things on the same character: Mystic Ninja Talents / Spell Progression (with a potentially HUGE caster level) / Free Spell Penetration / Free Greater Spell Penetration / Free Still Spell (on all powers with no increase to spell lvl) / Free Silent Spell (on all powers with no increase to spell lvl) / Sneak Attack (albeit only 1d6) / A powerful ability to add his spells to his SA (No limit/day or specification that he needs to actually qualify to add SA damage) /Two High Saves / 6+Int skill points.
He made it so that you could go into this caster-type PrC without ever taking a lvl in a casting class. IE: Minor/Major Magic. But this class stacks your lvls in any previous casting classes as well as any previous SA classes with the PrC lvls to give you your total caster level. In my mind there is no reason to stack your SA lvls, sure you can take Minor/Major Magic, but it is not a casting class and wouldn't stack IMO.
Several of the MN powers seem to come from the Arcane Trickster's special features. The Stealthy Powers and Ultimate Stealth Powers are pretty much the same thing as the Arcane Trickster's Tricky Spells except the Arcane trickster can only do it 3/day at 5th lvl and only a max of 5/day at 9th lvl. The Mystic Sneak Attack is similar enough to the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells, except the way it is worded it sounds like he doesn't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack, he just gets it (which would be like the Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack except the Arcane Trickster has a limit of only 2/day at 7th lvl).
Seems to be a copy of the Arcane Trickster except that you don’t have any limits per day to your abilities, you never have to take a spell casting class at all, you can add your Rogue level to your MN level for caster level, you get your Rogue Talents, You get 4 free meta-magic feats (two of which should raise the lvl of the spell you apply it to, but don't). It's just too much IMO. Then again he might be playing a power game and it might fit. Just seems like a lot for one PrC, I feel that if you are going to build a Rogue-ish class that has a spell progression it should either be built on the frame of Arcane Trickster or 3.5 Assassin depending on if you want the focus to be spells or combat and I would give it similar prerequisites to these classes. I think Sorcerer would be a good match for the prerequisite casting class, since it is spontaneous. Just change the flavor of your Sorcerer (for the purposes of MN, not all sorcerers in your world). This would even let you have a Familiar, which would be cool for this type of ninja. If you use the Arcane Trickster model you really only have to change out the Ranged Legerdemain and convert the casting progression to the specific list as above. If it is going to be a casting focused type class I would give it more spells per day though.
mdt, I like the build you have in your original post but I would suggest a few things mostly based on balance and personal preferences.
First off I would let them be Lawful and probably Neutral but almost never Chaotic. Certainly not LG but they could easily be LN or LE. I say this because the description of Lawful is not based entirely on whether or not you follow the laws of a certain society but rather could be a personal code or the code and laws of an order to which you belong. I would say that no Ninja and probably very few Assassins would operate without a strict code and strict chain of command within their organization. You can’t have people with this kind of ability causing chaos wherever they please. They are trained to focus on a single target or a single objective and never deviate. These guys don't just run around killing whomever they like and I don't think you want to let them.
If you want to make it a PrC I would base it on the PF Assassin model and just replace some of the fluff and a few abilities. If you want a more mystical ninja (but not a full blown caster like Arcane Trickster) I would look at the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC in Unapproachable East for inspiration.
If you want to convert the actual Ninja class, I would convert it as is in CA except: bump to a d8 for HP and give it a nice capstone ability. I would also consider making their Ki pool stackable with the Monk Ki pool and perhaps adding some new Ki abilities as in this earlier post. I would not give the Ninja class, as presented in CA, the full Sneak Attack ability that Rogues get. There are only two reasons to take Rogue over Ninja: 1) Rogue gets to wear armor. 2) Rogue has real Sneak Attack which has a greater application in team combat. There is a reason IMO that Ninjas didn't get Sneak Attack. A Ninja at higher levels with Sudden Strike could be just as devastating but in a different way and different style of combat. With a few of the Ki feats (which I believe can be found in Complete Scoundrel) the Ninja can expand his Ki pool and use his basic Ghost Step ability to remain invisible/ethereal for multiple rounds at a time. This coupled with his Ghost Strike ability would give him Sudden Strike bonuses even on a Full Attack. (If you don’t think your ninja has enough attacks/turn consider TWF or Boots of Speed) And at 20 when they can use Ethereal Jaunt and their Ghost Strike ability, they could easily eliminate an entire room full of guards without ever being seen or struck. I see no reason to kick the Rogue to the side by giving the Ninja class full Sneak Attack.
The third option, which is the one you seemed to go for, is to base the Ninja on an alternate Rogue build. If you are going to do this I would do a couple things. Any level where you have the Ninja getting 3 special abilities on the same lvl I would change around. The basic Rogue never gets more than 2 special abilities per lvl and I would follow this pattern. Secondly I would give your alternate Rogue-based Ninja light armor proficiency, allow them to add their Wis bonus to AC, and scrap the Monk-like AC bonus. The Monk AC bonus is too little too late and you just end up spending a lot of gold buying magic items to boost this weakness. I would make him like the Swordsage in ToB instead of like the Monk in this regard. I would give your Ninja a nice capstone ability like the Rogues or perhaps like the Shadowdancers. Finally, I would do one of two things: 1) Go with either the Ghost abilities or full Sneak Attack, but not both. If you want him to be more mystical/supernatural then give him all the ghost abilities and give him Sudden Strike. 2) If you want him to be a varient Rogue, give him Sneak Attack and scrap the ghost stuff, make his Ki abilities instead mimic the Monks (except Ki strike) which give him bonuses to his raw ability: Dodge bonus to AC, Acrobatics bonus, Movement speed increase, etc. . . If you chose this second way I would redo the entire list of rogue talents for the Ninja (although I might still include some of the rogue talents). Give him things like: A talent that lets him take his full movement up a wall/vertical surface as long as he begins and ends on a horizontal surface or with something he can hold on to. Also a talent that gives him slow fall. The Fast Stealth talent would be a good one. Poison use would be a good talent. I would also keep the Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus, and Combat Trick talents. Last but not least if you are going to do something like this second option and scrap the ghost abilities, I would replace it with an advanced talent that gives the ninja HiPS as an (EX) ability usable IN (vs. within 10' of; this isn't a (SU) ability) areas of dim light and darkness.
EDIT: I would probably consider something (talent/class feature) that gives him Darkvision. He will need it as precision damage is impossible if your target has concealment.
For the PrC, I think you might want to limit the Ninja Talents to the regular talents. No Advanced Talents. I feel that if he is going for the magic, he will not concentrate on other advanced areas. Magic takes the place of those, as well as sneak attack. He might need to give up something else, too. I keep thinking maybe 4 skill points, or lesser BAB/HD. It makes since, but I don't know if it takes away from the rest. A difficult concept to completely balance.
Yeah, it's hard to get the balance just right. On the other hand, he only get's two talents, instead of one every other level (like the Ninja base class). Maybe I should limit it to one Ninja talent, but then I have a dead level (which I was trying to avoid). Hmmm...
The Mystic Ninja PrC above seems like it is stacking too many things on the same character: Mystic Ninja Talents / Spell Progression (with a potentially HUGE caster level) / Free Spell Penetration / Free Greater Spell Penetration / Free Still Spell (on all powers with no increase to spell lvl) / Free Silent Spell (on all powers with no increase to spell lvl) / Sneak Attack (albeit only 1d6) / A powerful ability to add his spells to his SA (No limit/day or specification that he needs to actually qualify to add SA damage) /Two High Saves / 6+Int skill points.
To address them in order :
The free still/silent is limited till 10 (a capstone ability). Not sure how to do that otherwise. As a capstone it doesn't seem too bad.
Caster level : Yeah, I've been struggling with this. The problem is, I don't want to penalize those from the Ninja class going into it (as it's supposed to be a natural progression) but then a wizard with a level of rogue can get in and have a higher caster level. It kind of makes sense, but maybe not. Hmmm. What do you think of halving the caster level boost (IE: every two levels of a qualifying class count as +1 to caster level).
Sneak Attack : Really put that in as a level filler. They have to have sneak attack already to get into the class.
Mystic Sneak Attack : I didn't think this was all that powerful honestly. They can already make a sneak attack with touch and ranged touch attacks (per RAW), so really it's just adding the non-attack powers onto it. And there is a limit, although the limit is how many powers they can manifest per day (which honestly they don't get many per day even at 10th level).
Two High Saves : Hmmm, maybe I should pull this back to one. Question is, which? High Will or Dex? I'd lean towards High Dex, since the powers aren't supposed to be spells.
Skill Points : These I'd like to keep the same. The Ninja should still be a skill monkey, even while doing magic. I'd rather balance with other changes if possible.
He made it so that you could go into this caster-type PrC without ever taking a lvl in a casting class. IE: Minor/Major Magic. But this class stacks your lvls in any previous casting classes as well as any previous SA classes with the PrC lvls to give you your total caster level. In my mind there is no reason to stack your SA lvls, sure you can take Minor/Major Magic, but it is not a casting class and wouldn't stack IMO.
Yeah, I didn't want a straight Ninja penalized by going into this Prestige class. Hmmm... How about the proposed solution above? Half credit for existing credited class levels? Or, SA levels counted at half, and caster levels counted full?
Several of the MN powers seem to come from the Arcane Trickster's special features. The Stealthy Powers and Ultimate Stealth Powers are pretty much the same thing as the Arcane Trickster's Tricky Spells except the Arcane trickster can only do it 3/day at 5th lvl and only a max of 5/day at 9th lvl. The Mystic Sneak Attack is similar enough to the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells, except the way it is worded it sounds like he doesn't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack, he just gets it (which would be like the Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack except the Arcane Trickster has a limit of only 2/day at 7th lvl).
Hahaha, parallel evolution in action. I honestly didn't even look at the Arcane Trickster when I was working this up. :) But no, the MSA requires the character to make a sneak attack. You can't make a sneak attack if you can't meet the prereqs for it (flanked, flat footed, etc).
Seems to be a copy of the Arcane Trickster except that you don’t have any limits per day to your abilities, you never have to take a spell casting class at all, you can add your Rogue level to your MN level for caster level, you get your Rogue Talents, You get 4 free meta-magic feats (two of which should raise the lvl of the spell you apply it to, but don't). It's just too much IMO....
Hmmm, all good feedback, need to go back to the drawing board I suppose. To me, the limits on uses per day were more along the lines of the fact they get few powers to start with. I wonder... maybe reducing the number of powers per day might be effective towards balancing?
mdt, I like the build you have in your original post but I would suggest a few things mostly based on balance and personal preferences.
First off I would let them be Lawful and probably Neutral but almost never Chaotic. Certainly not LG but they could easily be LN or LE. I say this because the description of Lawful is not based entirely on whether or not you follow the laws of a certain society but rather could be a personal code or the code and laws of an order to which you belong. I would say that no Ninja and probably very few Assassins would operate without a strict code and strict chain of command within their organization. You can’t have people with this kind of ability causing chaos wherever they please. They are trained to focus on a single target or a single objective and never deviate. These guys don't just run around killing whomever they like and I don't think you want to let them.
Yep, I honestly hadn't expected anyone to ever by lawful good in this class. I had kind of assumed that would be a GM call though. As to the chaotic though... hmmm... The problem is, I can see someone learning all this stuff and then turning chaotic (any Ninja anime from Japan will have people who learned structured but then went chaotic, and still learned some more stuff, usually forbidden knowledge). Hmmm... But still, maybe limit them to Lawful or Neutral for the first 8 levels, then allow chaotic at the last two, to allow that flavor of 'He has lost his path'. Hmmmm...
If you want to make it a PrC I would base it on the PF Assassin model and just replace some of the fluff and a few abilities. If you want a more mystical ninja (but not a full blown caster like Arcane Trickster) I would look at the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC in Unapproachable East for inspiration.
Don't have that book unfortunately.
If you want to convert the actual Ninja class, I would convert it as is in CA except: bump to a d8 for HP and give it a nice capstone ability. I would also consider making their Ki pool stackable with the Monk Ki pool and perhaps adding some new Ki abilities as in this earlier post. I would not give the Ninja class, as presented in CA, the full Sneak Attack ability that Rogues get. There are only two reasons to take Rogue over Ninja: 1) Rogue gets to wear armor. 2) Rogue has real Sneak Attack which has a greater application in team combat. There is a reason IMO that Ninjas didn't get Sneak Attack. A Ninja at higher levels with Sudden Strike could be just as...
I've been trying to avoid mixing the ki abilities, but mainly as a 'don't step on the toes of the core class' thing. :( I did remove the rogue's armor though, when I used it. Also their weapon proficiencies, so I think we are on the same page there.
The problem I have with Sudden Strike is that it basically works only as long as you have Ki points (so you can go invisible). You just can't get someone flat footed as often otherwise. I played a Ninja RAW and it sucked, I got decent hits the first round of combat, but that was it.
Hmmm.... Need to think...
The free still/silent is limited till 10 (a capstone ability). Not sure how to do that otherwise. As a capstone it doesn't seem too bad.
Fair enough, I didn’t take into consideration that it was the Capstone and limited until lvl 10. If you keep this as their Capstone I would consider limiting the earlier ability “Sneaky Powers” to a certain number of times per day. Maybe 5/day or something like that, so when they get that Capstone it is a major thing for them; move of a ”Finally unrestricted use” and not just ”Oh sweet now I can suppress both components.” I haven’t gone through all the spells on your power list to check the components but if they only have one or the other V/S then chances are the Ninja hasn’t felt any hardship over the limitation of only being able to suppress one or the other. Just my take, I would probably make it more about limit/day than about suppressing 1 vs. 2 components of casting.
Caster level : Yeah, I've been struggling with this. The problem is, I don't want to penalize those from the Ninja class going into it (as it's supposed to be a natural progression) but then a wizard with a level of rogue can get in and have a higher caster level. It kind of makes sense, but maybe not. Hmmm. What do you think of halving the caster level boost (IE: every two levels of a qualifying class count as +1 to caster level).
I definitely understand your pain here, this is part of the trouble with building a prestige class that adds new abilities to a base class progression. You don’t want to penalize the characters who would be coming into the new class. But if you look at many of the Casting PrCs that have a limited spell list and don’t require the character to have casting ability before they join, the caster lvl is the characters lvl in the PrC. I feel it would be more balanced to stay with this pattern. I would hesitate to stack their caster level even with previous casting classes, because as specifically stated in the class, they don’t cast spells. If you are worried about them only having a cap of lvl 10 caster, well consider this: A 10 lvl PrC can be continued after 10 lvls. I don’t know if you have the Epic Level Handbook but it shows you how to continue a 10 lvl PrC progression after lvl 10 so you could essentially end up with a 10 lvl Ninja 25 lvl MN who has a HUGE caster lvl and those would be your ancient masters. The problem I will tell you up front with this is after lvl 10 PrCs don’t usually continue a spell progression, also ONLY abilities that had a stackable pattern in the first 10 lvls continue to get more powerful in later lvls, which would mean you would need to do some remodeling of your PrC progression to take advantage of this. I would do something along the lines of: remove the still/silent spell (I know this means finding a new capstone ability, I actually think that MSA could be a good capstone.) I actually like the feel of a gesture or a secret word being used to summon the secret power of the ninja anyway. I would also remove the spell penetration and greater spell penetration. I would include for them a +1d6 every 3 lvls sneak attack progression (so your ancient masters could be packing quite a SA punch) and I would work a little with their spell list/lvl. You don’t want your ancient masters not learning Ancient Master powers, so I would put in some kind of every 3 lvl progression where they learn a new Master’s Power and build a separate spell list (NOT PART OF THEIR NORMAL SPELL PROGRESSION) which contains more powerful spells to choose from. I’m not even sure if I would simply add the Master Powers to their normal spells known or create a whole new ability where a Ninja could use any master power he knows as a standard action, but can only use 3 Master Powers per day or something like that, or 1/day when they first start and then 1 additional time per day for every 3 lvls of MN. That way you have all these normal spells that all ninjas from every school can learn, and then you have the truly secret powers that they might have to venture/quest to certain schools and see certain ancient masters to attain. Your ancient masters could conduct an entire battle using only Master Powers, while lesser ninjas would be stuck with only 1 or 2 a day. Plus you can leave feats like still spell/silent spell/ spell focus / spell penetration to those Ninjas who are truly dedicated to mastering their powers, just have it affect ninja powers in the same way it would normally affect a spell. So not every ninja will be casting all the same spells at exactly the same strength but rather their training gives them the basic knowledge and it is up to them to build on that knowledge and strengthen their ability to defeat a foe, not with the blade alone, but with their secret power. I hope I explained that as well as it sounded in my head. Oh and the new capstone could be to let them use their Master Power with their MSA ability. But if that is the case I would put a times/day limit on MSA.
Sneak Attack : Really put that in as a level filler. They have to have sneak attack already to get into the class.
Like I said, I would probably give this a solid 1/3 lvls progression so they can continue after lvl 10.
Mystic Sneak Attack : I didn't think this was all that powerful honestly. They can already make a sneak attack with touch and ranged touch attacks (per RAW), so really it's just adding the non-attack powers onto it. And there is a limit, although the limit is how many powers they can manifest per day (which honestly they don't get many per day even at 10th level).
Yeah I know that attack spells can already do this, but you also have to consider, they are not just attacking with a spell and adding SA damage. They are attacking with a spell and their weapon at the same time so you are adding SA dmg + Weapon dmg + Weapon enchantment dmg + Spell dmg/effect. It could potentially be stacked up to a MASSIVE attack. On top of that it is a swift action so they could potentially do this and still get a full attack. I would either give this a tight times/day limit or would make adding their power to their weapon and the attack a Standard Action so they would not be able to do this and get a full attack all the time. (ESPECIALLY if you do something along the lines of what I have mentioned above with Master Powers.)
Two High Saves : Hmmm, maybe I should pull this back to one. Question is, which? High Will or Dex? I'd lean towards High Dex, since the powers aren't supposed to be spells.
I would pull it back to one and I agree that REF should probably be the one you go for.
Skill Points : These I'd like to keep the same. The Ninja should still be a skill monkey, even while doing magic. I'd rather balance with other changes if possible.
I absolutely agree, I was just pointing out that all of these things stack up and can make a class a little overpowered just by giving them too many toys to play with.
Yeah, I didn't want a straight Ninja penalized by going into this Prestige class. Hmmm... How about the proposed solution above? Half credit for existing credited class levels? Or, SA levels counted at half, and caster levels counted full?
I addressed this above but, I really think the MN lvl should be the ONLY lvls that count toward MN power caster lvl. Because you have created a whole new magic system (basically) If you give anyone an advantage it will end up being a HUGE advantage. Rogue could get into this class as you have it written now without ever taking a caster lvl, a caster could get into the class with only 1 lvl in rogue. But neither one of them are at all familiar with the types of things that the MN teaches, so why stack their lvls with the MN for caster lvl. I think everyone should start on equal ground and those who stick with it (IE: Masters who have taken the PrC beyond lvl 10) should be the ones who reap the rewards, not just those who happen to have chosen the right class progression from lvl 1. Right now the only limiting factor you have on entry lvl is 10 ranks in 2 skills. Personally I like this as a 10th lvl entry PrC and would keep it there, but I would probably eliminate the casting Prerequisite all together and not stack prior lvls of any kind onto caster lvl (this is a new and secret set of techniques and your previous classes did not deal with them. They aren’t spells and your run of the mill Ninja has never seen these either.)
Hahaha, parallel evolution in action. I honestly didn't even look at the Arcane Trickster when I was working this up. :) But no, the MSA requires the character to make a sneak attack. You can't make a sneak attack if you can't meet the prereqs for it (flanked, flat footed, etc).
I see. It just seemed that way from how you worded it.
Hmmm, all good feedback, need to go back to the drawing board I suppose. To me, the limits on uses per day were more along the lines of the fact they get few powers to start with. I wonder... maybe reducing the number of powers per day might be effective towards balancing?
I would not limit their spells per day any more than they already are. I think it would probably be better to limit some of their other class abilities and give them a solid progression so that characters at lvl 10 are able to use their powers and class abilities more times per day. I would also consider looking at building the progression so that a character would be encouraged to stick with it past lvl 10 and gain true mastery with their techniques.
That's just my take on it; I hope it gives you some ideas.
Yep, I honestly hadn't expected anyone to ever by lawful good in this class. I had kind of assumed that would be a GM call though. As to the chaotic though... hmmm... The problem is, I can see someone learning all this stuff and then turning chaotic (any Ninja anime from Japan will have people who learned structured but then went chaotic, and still learned some more stuff, usually forbidden knowledge). Hmmm... But still, maybe limit them to Lawful or Neutral for the first 8 levels, then allow chaotic at the last two, to allow that flavor of 'He has lost his path'. Hmmmm...
You could leave the base class as any non-Chaotic / non-Good and then make some kind of RP penalty for becoming Chaotic. For instance I once built a PrC for Wizards that had an ex-PrC entry where if they left the order they were hunted by other members of the order. They don’t lose their spells or class abilities, but they will be hunted for the rest of their lives if they turn their back on the order they belonged to. Basically the order didn’t want powerful mages running around with this knowledge and not having anything/anyone to answer to.
If you did something like that, you could then make a whole new PrC (Really it would be the exact same PrC with a different story and maybe a few different spells on their spell list) who are all of the Chaotic and generally Evil Ninjas of a rival order.
Don't have that book unfortunately.
Ah I see, it is quite hard to get hold of these days, I had to special order my copy. Anyway, the two abilities they have that would probably be inspirational for a mystical type ninja would be Shadow Pounce and Shadow Discorporation. Keep in mind these powers only work in shadow.
Shadow Pounce: Any time they use an ability/spell with the teleport descriptor, they gain a FULL ATTACK ACTION with the weapon in their hand at the end of the teleport. This is awesome because they also get a Shadowdancer-like Shadow Jump ability.
Shadow Discorporation: If a physical strike would take them to 0 HP or below, they can roll a REF save to avoid death (I think the DC is = Damage done but not 100% sure). If they make the save, they (and their equipment) discorporate into the shadows and they return to life the next night anywhere in a 1 mile radius of where they were killed.
They have some other good stuff too, at lvl 10 they get Death Attack, at lvl 2, I think, they get an ability to blur themselves while in shadows. They have a lot of good stuff but SP and SD are the really nasty ones.
I've been trying to avoid mixing the ki abilities, but mainly as a 'don't step on the toes of the core class' thing. :( I did remove the rogue's armor though, when I used it. Also their weapon proficiencies, so I think we are on the same page there.
I can understand the ki pool thing. I believe, however, that you misunderstand me on the armor part. I would ALLOW them to wear armor. ONLY light armor. I would give them their WIS bonus to AC but NOT the Monk-like AC bonus for being unarmored.
Basically they would get:
AC=10+Armor+DEX bonus+ WIS bonus
Instead of:
AC=10+DEX bonus + WIS bonus + Monk-like AC bonus
That is a personal preference though and probably wouldn’t make or break any class build. The Swordsage in Book of 9 Swords has Armor+Dex bonus+WIS bonus and I liked the idea and style very much.
NOTE: I would only use this option if you are going to make your ninjas a variant of the Rogue class, NOT if you intend to convert the whole base class in CA.
The problem I have with Sudden Strike is that it basically works only as long as you have Ki points (so you can go invisible). You just can't get someone flat footed as often otherwise. I played a Ninja RAW and it sucked, I got decent hits the first round of combat, but that was it.
I agree it is a very difficult ability to work with. But don’t forget the Feint ability, a high bluff and Improved Feint could get you Sudden Strike every round. Then you would only need to use your Ki when you wanted to get a Full Attack with Sudden Strike. Also if you are building a class specifically to be a continuation of Ninja then you should put in there that lvls in MN count toward calculating the Ninja’s Ki pool. It would also be easy for a Ninja to dip into Shadowdancer and get HiPS which would allow you to get Sudden Strike a lot easier. Also don’t forget there are feats to increase your Ki pool, there are feats that allow you to remain invisible for more than one round. Most combats only last about 3-5 rounds. If you take Ninja all the way to 20 you can remain Ethereal for as long as you could with the Ethereal Jaunt spell and only use your Ki to use Ghost Strike. Plus don’t forget you can give your Ninja (when you have the money) a Cloak of Etherealness which for 55,000gp makes you Ethereal for 10 minutes/day and that duration doesn’t have to be continuous but is calculated in increments of 1 min. I know that is a lot of money but for a Ninja it would be worth it. That would cut the amount of Ki you have to spend each battle by at least half. There is also a Tabard of the Disembodied in the Magic Item Compendium which allows you to go Ethereal for 1 round per day. It is a Chest slot item. Doesn’t sound like much but if you worship Nerull (you could ask the DM to change it to another god if you like) and take some special devoted worshiper feat it increases the amount of time per day you can be ethereal by a lot. I don’t remember exactly how much, but it was significant. And the tabard is much cheaper.
Ok,
after reading all the suggestions (thanks Shadowlord), here is an altered Mystic Ninja :
--------------------
Hit Die : d8
BAB : 3/4
Saves : Reflex (Good), Fort & Will (Poor)
Powers per day : Unchanged
Powers Known : Unchanged
Special Abilities
1st : Ninja Powers, Ninja Tricks
2nd : Stealthy Powers (CL/2 per day)
3rd : Sneak Attack (+1d6)
4th : Ninja Talent
5th : Secret Master Power
6th : Sneak Attack (+1d6)
7th : Hide in Plain Sight
8th : Ninja Talent
9th : Sneak Attack (+1d6)
10th: Mystic Sneak Attack, Secret Master Power
Alignment : The Mystic Ninja tends toward Neutral or Evil, although there are rare individuals who are Good. Mystic Ninja's are rarely chaotic, due to the massive amounts of dedicated training involved in their training. A chaotic Mystic Ninja may continue to advance in the Mystic Ninja class, but he is hunted down by any non-chaotic Mystic Ninja as a ronin.
Ninja Powers : While the Mystic Ninja doesn't cast spells as other magic users do, he is still limited to a certain number of uses of their powers each day, which is roughly analogous to the spells per day a spellcaster receives. The Mystic Ninja get's a number of Powers per day as shown on the chart above. Each power exactly duplicates the spell it is named after, with the following exceptions.
Materials : The Mystic Ninja ignores any material requirement the spell has, provided the GP cost is 10gp or less. If it is more than 10gp, the Mystic Ninja must still have the materials.
Caster Level : The Mystic Ninja uses his total level in the Mystic Ninja class as his Caster Level when determining effect of powers. Any spellcasting feats which would normally increase caster level may be used to increase effective casting level of the Mystic Ninja's powers.
Spell Failure : A Mystic Ninja does not suffer Arcane Spell failure provided they are wearing no or light armor. A Mystic Ninja may not use their powers if they are wearing armor heavier than Light, nor if they are using a shield.
Supernatural : Mystic Ninja powers are Supernatural. They do not function in Anti-Magic fields, and may be dispelled by dispel magic. However, they are not magic, and thus a spell caster cannot make a spellcraft check to determine what power is being manifested. A Knowledge (Arcana) check may be made instead to determine the power being manifested. A Mystic Ninja who uses a Power provokes an attack of opportunity unless he does so Defensively. The Combat Casting feat provides a +4 bonus to his check to do so. Instead of making a Spellcraft check, he must instead make a Bluff check at the same DC as if he were casting a spell of his powers level.
Beneficial powers : Beneficial powers (such as Detect Magic, Misdirection or Blur for example) only affect the Mystic Ninja himself.
Uses per day : A Mystic Ninja gains additional uses of powers per day based on INT as if they were gaining additional spells. A Mystic Ninja must have an INT score of 10+ the Level of the Power to manifest it.
Metamatic Feats : A Mystic Ninja may learn Metamagic feats as normal. Any level adjustments to Spell Level instead increase Power Level.
Stealthy Powers : At 2nd level, the Mystic Ninja learns to activate his powers in a more stealthy manner. He may suppress either the Somatic or Verbal component of a power (but not both). If a spell has only a Verbal or Somatic component, then he may suppress that single component. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to his Class Level divided by two (round down), minimum of once per day.
Hide in Plain Sight : At 7th level, the Mystic Ninja gains the ability to Hide in Plain Sight. If he already has this ability from another class or feat, he may instead choose a Feat of his own choosing, so long as he meets the requirements for that feat.
Ninja Talent : At 4th level, and every 4 levels beyond that, the Mystic Ninja may select a Ninja Talent from the list of Ninja Talents. He adds his levels in the class that gave him his Sneak Attack ability (Rogue or Ninja for example) to his Class level in Mystic Ninja to determine whether he can select from the Base or Advanced Ninja Talents.
Sneak Attack : At 3rd level, and every 3 class levels beyond, the Mystic Ninja gains a +1d6 bonus to his sneak attack ability (or the ability that mimics it, if he does not have sneak attack).
Secret Master Power : At 5th level, and every 5 levels beyond, the Mystic Ninja may seek out another master to learn, or develop his own, Master Ability. This ability allows him to duplicate a spell not on the Mystic Ninja power list of any level as a power, so long as the spell's level is less than the maximum level of power he can manifest. The Master Ability is treated as a Power of the spells level +1. Alternately, he may learn an existing Mystic Ninja power of any level he can manifest. This new Power does not count against his maximum known powers.
Mystic Sneak Attack : At 10th level, the Mystic Ninja gains the ability to merge his powers into his sneak attacks. As a swift action the Mystic Ninja may activate any power he knows as part of his attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack strikes, it does all the damage from his attack (including sneak attack damage) and also adds on the power affect as well if the power is an attack power. If the power is a power that only affects the Mystic Ninja, he gains the benefits of the power (for example, he gains endure elements, or he teleports). If the Ninja misses with a ranged attack, the power was an attack power, it will activate when the ranged weapon strikes anything, even a tree or an ally. If the weapon passes beyond 30 feet, the power is discharged.
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The problem I have with Sudden Strike is that it basically works only as long as you have Ki points (so you can go invisible). You just can't get someone flat footed as often otherwise. I played a Ninja RAW and it sucked, I got decent hits the first round of combat, but that was it.
I agree it is a very difficult ability to work with. But don’t forget the Feint ability, a high bluff and Improved Feint could get you Sudden Strike every round. Then you would only need to use your Ki when you wanted to get a Full Attack with Sudden Strike. Also if you are building a class specifically to be a continuation of Ninja then you should put in there that lvls in MN count toward calculating the Ninja’s Ki pool. It would also be easy for a Ninja to dip into Shadowdancer and get HiPS which would allow you to get Sudden Strike a lot easier. Also don’t forget there are feats to increase your Ki pool, there are feats that allow you to remain invisible for more than one round. Most combats only last about 3-5 rounds. If you take Ninja all the way to 20 you can remain Ethereal for as long as you could with the Ethereal Jaunt spell and only use your Ki to use Ghost Strike. Plus don’t forget you can give your Ninja (when you have the money) a Cloak of Etherealness which for 55,000gp makes you Ethereal for 10 minutes/day and that duration doesn’t have to be continuous but is calculated in increments of 1 min. I know that is a lot of money but for a Ninja it would be worth it. That would cut the amount of Ki you have to spend each battle by at least half. There is also a Tabard of the Disembodied in the Magic Item Compendium which allows you to go Ethereal for 1 round per day. It is a Chest slot item. Doesn’t sound like much but if you worship Nerull (you could ask the DM to change it to another god if you like) and take some special devoted worshiper feat it increases the amount of time per day you can be ethereal by a lot. I don’t remember exactly how much, but it was significant. And the tabard is much cheaper.
Still thinking about the rest, especially since I'm not sure which parts you are referencing to the Ninja Base, and which to the Mystic Ninja. :)
I'm going back and forth on this myself. On the one hand, I've played the original class, and it sucked, I couldn't crank damage like a fighter or a monk or a rogue. And, it was hard to bluff over and over (once someone else had seen me do it in a fight, I was getting a -5 penalty because they expect me to bluff. I can understand that, and agree with it, but it made it harder). I need to think this over some more.
I am mostly just trying to give you ideas about Sudden Strike - to be honest I HATE sudden strike and think pretty useless. Having Sneak Attack and Armor were the two reasons I used Rogue for my latest stealth build vs. Ninja. I honestly wouldn't blame anyone for replacing the ability. But I do think it is a good balance in the Ninja's later levels, it is just a matter of actually getting to those later levels.
The MN looks like it is on the way. I would work on an actual list for the Master Powers. Maybe something beyond the 5th lvl powers that they get in their normal list. For instance, an Ancient master might be able to use Time Stop. Just a suggestion.
Also I think you should give the MN the master powers 3 times in their 10 lvl progression. I think something specifically has to occur three times in the 10 lvl progression to be a repeatable pattern past 10.
The MN looks like it is on the way. I would work on an actual list for the Master Powers. Maybe something beyond the 5th lvl powers that they get in their normal list. For instance, an Ancient master might be able to use Time Stop. Just a suggestion.
Also I think you should give the MN the master powers 3 times in their 10 lvl progression. I think something specifically has to occur three times in the 10 lvl progression to be a repeatable pattern past 10.
I think it just has to be 'Every N levels' to progress into epic. But I could do it another way. Trying to keep each level having something.
I was kind of trying to keep them at 5 or less, but, allow them to get powers that are not on their list as master powers.
So, Fireball would be a good master power, a 4th level one, for example. A third level spell used by the Mystic Ninja, I can easily see a level 8 MN summoning a ball of fire into his hand and throwing it (or a flaming shuriken, or belching out a gout of fire) and it explodes on impact. Like a bit of ki.
Timestop would be nice, but I didn't want to progress them all the way up to level 9 spells, although I guess I could, but that would require making them a base class. :(
Timestop would be nice, but I didn't want to progress them all the way up to level 9 spells, although I guess I could, but that would require making them a base class. :(
Not if you create a specific list of Master Powers and give each a MN lvl requirement instead of a wizard/sorcerer lvl requirement.
Out of curiosity, have you done any more work with the Ninja class concept or the MN PrC?
Hey,
Sorry, no, been busy with work and remaking characters for our campaign (which is starting back up next month). I'm going to work on it some more. Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the Ninja after the stuff we talked about.
The MN PrC still needs a bit of fine tuning. Until I can get someone to play the Ninja though, it's going to be hard to check the balance.
No need to apologies. I was just curious if you had made any further modifications.
Invisibility as a swift action + sneak attack makes this a fair bit more powered than a rogue, since it can get the sneak attack in in a lot of situations where the rogue can't, and all of the situations where a rogue can.
Invisibility as a swift action + sneak attack makes this a fair bit more powered than a rogue, since it can get the sneak attack in in a lot of situations where the rogue can't, and all of the situations where a rogue can.
True,
The issue being that the previous method (only getting it when invisible or the person was flat footed) was almost useless.I'm trying to work out something that would be both fair and useful, but so far, nothing is coming to mind. :(
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Maybe give them Improved Feint and Greater Feint as they gain levels?
Or maybe some ninja-trickery (something like the eggs full of crushed pepper that they'd throw into peoples' eyes) that allows them to flank (or just deny their Dexterity bonus) an opponent without having to have someone flank with them?
I agree that the invisibility is a bit too powerful; but I agree that they need some mechanic to allow them to reliably get their sneak attacks in.