GameMastery Map Pack: Swallowed Whole

I gotta say, I feel kinda duped on this one. The bit of concept art that was up before was really promising and I was looking forward to this set more than anything else in the upcoming months. It feels like a bait and switch to me now.

You guys make awesome stuff and I haven't regretted a single purchase or anything that my subscription has sent me, but this one is really, really lame. The description and artwork that was up before led me to believe we would be getting interiors of enormous monsters for exploration and possible encounters.

I too am considering discontinuing my subscription to bypass this stinker.

I mean when you do boats, did you ever consider just drawing the silhouette of the boat? Conpared to the water around it, it could be argued that the sails, rigging, stairwells, oars and such are pretty distracting too. Why is it even a consideration that the insides of the monster are "too distracting" to the surrounding artwork?

The map pack is "Swallowed Whole" not "Lush environments surrounding the creature by whom you've been swallowed" The point of the gamemastery map packs and flip mats is to have visceral representations of the environments are characters get to explore. Giving us silhouettes of monsters that we could have cut out of black construction paper ourselves for dollar ... it just goes against the very spirit and purpose of the map packs themselves. Where did the concept art come from? Where did it go?

thenorthman wrote:

Which I hope it does well....but I know I'll only be getting one and that is only because its part of my subscription.

Actually this is the only time I have actually contemplating doing the cancel then restart thing to skip it. Might still but not sure if worth the trouble.

Sean

It is worth it - we vote with our money.

I do NOT want to financially impact Paizo in a negative way, but how else can we send a strong signal concerning specific items? This isn't negative because it helps steer the ship away from rocky coasts and out into the deep financial sea.

For some reason, I imagine that a mass non-purchase of this map pack by current subscribers is about just as likely to result in the map pack line being downgraded. I mean, if your base just swiftly dodges a purchase, that seems more like crashing into those rocky coasts than leading it out into the sea.

I don't want to imply that everyone should buy this or keep their subscription if they don't really want it, but I do not think that choosing in mass to avoid a product in the Map Packs line will improve the line. Of course this is all just random speculation rather than actual information that I know for sure.

One shouldn't feel obligated to buy something they don't want, though. I think under normal circumstances, one has to vote with their wallet, but Paizo.com provides the ability to review products and rate them, as well as leave direct feedback for the company's designers, developers, and even CEO. So while I don't foresee a huge majority of subscribers canceling over this product, some might, and sales in stores and on paizo.com may not meet expectations as well. That, coupled with the overall response on the boards and in reviews will have an impact on the line.

DitheringFool wrote:

thenorthman wrote:

Which I hope it does well....but I know I'll only be getting one and that is only because its part of my subscription.

Actually this is the only time I have actually contemplating doing the cancel then restart thing to skip it. Might still but not sure if worth the trouble.

Sean

It is worth it - we vote with our money.

I do NOT want to financially impact Paizo in a negative way, but how else can we send a strong signal concerning specific items? This isn't negative because it helps steer the ship away from rocky coasts and out into the deep financial sea.

For some reason, I imagine that a mass non-purchase of this map pack by current subscribers is about just as likely to result in the map pack line being downgraded. I mean, if your base just swiftly dodges a purchase, that seems more like crashing into those rocky coasts than leading it out into the sea.

I don't want to imply that everyone should buy this or keep their subscription if they don't really want it, but I do not think that choosing in mass to avoid a product in the Map Packs line will improve the line. Of course this is all just random speculation rather than actual information that I know for sure.

I disagree. I think that if a bunch of people use thier cancell/ renew to skip this one, Paizo may decide to do a bit more customer research before putting out something like this again.

I LOVE their other map packs, but this one is a BIG letdown for me.

I disagree. I think that if a bunch of people use thier cancell/ renew to skip this one, Paizo may decide to do a bit more customer research before putting out something like this again.

I LOVE their other map packs, but this one is a BIG letdown for me.

I would say that a bit more customer research would not have helped in this case. I believe it was just a situation where at the end, they were finished it was just a guess which one would be received better.

You may be right that large amount of cancelling/renewing may improve the line by them more accurately producing what their customers want.

But, that is not the only avenue available, other scenarios might be more ranging from them deciding that more "inventive" map packs should not be scheduled (which, honestly, may be what the customers want) to a scaling down the line to fewer packs per year (which also may be what customers want).

I really didn't want to imply that one should feel obligated omething they don't want, just that there are no negatives for the Map Pack line if a majority of the customers decide to skip on this pack. I think that the issue I probably had was the idea that not buying a product was definitely positive for the line going into the future, something that I am not sure of.

Lots of negative feedback got Paizo to move away from randomized Item Card packs. If folks don't like this pack, express yourself in whatever form you see fit - poor reviews, cancel subscriptions, etc. But I imagine it would take a fairly large response to show them that customers are uniformly unimpressed with a particular product or artistic direction. Still, Paizo has a history of being responsive to customers...

For me, I know I get A LOT more use out of mundane map packs like Village, Towns and Boats than I do from exotics like Hellscapes, Extra-Dimensional Spaces and Swallowed Whole.

Blaze I think that your line of reasoning, if followed, would lead to a lot of false positives or confirmations and that no message would be sent at all to Paizo over dissatisfaction with the product. If the company HEARS compaints, then that is one thing. If the sales figures do not back up said complaints, then how much incentive is there to respond to the criticism?

I don't want to just blindly dump Paizo in a group with other companies, but honestly that is how companies generally do business. You can complain all you want, and they're more than happy to take your complaints, but in the end if you keep buying the product you're complaining about then there is no tangible gain to be made from revision.

The people who make decisions about what types of products we should do read these message boards literally every single day.

And I say with authority that we are not going to do another Map Pack like this again, ever.

Vote however you'd like. If you don't want the Map Pack, by all means take steps to make sure you don't get it.

But speaking frankly, skipping this Map Pack to send a financial message will have no more impact than complaining on this thread.

The message is delivered and you won't see another Map Pack like this one again.

I thought this map pack was awesome and I'm tempted to get it even though I'm not a map pack subscriber.

Also, even if this map pack is not well liked and I am in the minority, I really dig the fact that you guys were willing to try it and see if it flies. As always, you are awesome in regards to listening to feedback, but please don't be afraid to continue offering crazy products like this from time to time. Hopefully, I'm not alone in this sentiment.

Ah well, "Crapped Out" is off the list of future Map Packs.

It is, of course, a gambling den. Shame on you if you thought otherwise :)

I'm waiting to pass judgment after I've got the set in my hands. Whether or not the set does well, I certainly hope Paizo continues to experiment every once in a while.

I thought this map pack was awesome and I'm tempted to get it even though I'm not a map pack subscriber.

This will be the first map pack I will have bought. You are not alone.

This thing is going to be awesome!! what are you guys talking about?!
This is the one of the coolest things I have seen in awhile. Most map packs are awesome, but this is in its own category.

If Paizo is still on the fence with products like these, put me down for This is awesome!

This thing is going to be awesome!! what are you guys talking about?!

This is the one of the coolest things I have seen in awhile. Most map packs are awesome, but this is in its own category.

If Paizo is still on the fence with products like these, put me down for This is awesome!

I don't think that Erik is saying we won't try creative product concepts like this in the future—speaking for myself, I think the concept is pretty great; I think he's suggesting that shifting the execution so far afield from our other Map Packs may not have been a resoundingly successful choice. I know I'd have preferred the standard execution (aka "show me the guts").

Yeah, we'll take chances and do some weird stuff now and again. But I think this one wandered far enough from the brand concept that it causes some problems.

samerandomhero wrote:

This thing is going to be awesome!! what are you guys talking about?!

This is the one of the coolest things I have seen in awhile. Most map packs are awesome, but this is in its own category.

If Paizo is still on the fence with products like these, put me down for This is awesome!

I don't think that Erik is saying we won't try creative product concepts like this in the future—speaking for myself, I think the concept is pretty great—I think he's suggesting that shifting the execution so far afield from our other Map Packs may not have been a resoundingly successful choice. I know I'd have preferred the standard execution (aka "show me the guts").

Ahhh.... I see. Whew. Ok, good now.

Edit: is it cool to order every little thing as send immediately or does it get rather obnoxious to your warehouse department. I myself would like things as fast as possible, but does it torpedo your guys profits to say ship a map and then a mini or two, followed by ap and so forth?

I know I'd have preferred the standard execution (aka "show me the guts").

Me too. It's a fantastic idea, it just needed a gutsier execution.

Vic Wertz wrote:

I know I'd have preferred the standard execution (aka "show me the guts").

Me too. It's a fantastic idea, it just needed a gutsier execution.

gotcha. as for myself I will use the blank squares to add what I want the creatures GI tract to look like. And add things like treasure or creatures.

"OH Crap. Like being swallowed by purple worm wasnt bad enough, now my frakkin dm made an abberration parasite that lives in a purple worm. I hate you so much!!"
"MWHAHAHAHA!!!

Or
"When I put on my character sheet that my family was eaten by a Trex, that was not giving you liberty to put them in the Trex that just swallowed me"
"Yeah, I hate family reunions too. At least I didnt make them undead. In a Trex stomach. Waiting for you to avenge them. take some damage.

has anyone submitted a monster for rpg superstar that lives in a monster.
mhhhmmmmmm. may not win, but it will be fun. ::plotty fingers::

Congrats on the dissertation btw.

Yeah, we'll take chances and do some weird stuff now and again. But I think this one wandered far enough from the brand concept that it causes some problems.

I don't think that the idea behind this was a bad idea. (And I'm still keeping my subscription)

I think the execution is what is wrong.

If this had actual drawings of the creatures instead of the silhouettes, Id be THIRLLED and probably get more than one.

So the concept was good.

The people who make decisions about what types of products we should do read these message boards literally every single day.

..................

And I say with authority that we are not going to do another Map Pack like this again, ever.

..................

The message is delivered and you won't see another Map Pack like this one again.

No No No No!

I hope my voice counts for something. I am not a mindless buyer in the bag which offers nothing but a cushion gap when sales are lower than expected. Just because someone has something bad to say, doesn't mean they are the only ones helping you improve your products. The dissenting critics don't deserve full ear. I want to be very clear about that.

Some choices are good and some not so bad. If you limit yourselves to thinking you must please the whiners or push only "the best" ideas, than you miss the opportunity to reach places no one has tried. Products which don't satisfy everyone must be made to keep the possibility open for products that will blow everyone's socks off. I am not a fool with my money and this product stands for more than just usefulness or visual eye candy. It shows that I directly support initiatives that are developing and improving the RPG map hobby. If you never make a map like this again than what exactly do you intend to do?

Thanks, Samerandomhero.

I have to agree with those who want more like this. The execution left me wanting, but I really love wacky ideas like this. Please do more of them, and execute them in a better way.

samerandomhero wrote:

This thing is going to be awesome!! what are you guys talking about?!

This is the one of the coolest things I have seen in awhile. Most map packs are awesome, but this is in its own category.

If Paizo is still on the fence with products like these, put me down for This is awesome!

I don't think that Erik is saying we won't try creative product concepts like this in the future—speaking for myself, I think the concept is pretty great; I think he's suggesting that shifting the execution so far afield from our other Map Packs may not have been a resoundingly successful choice. I know I'd have preferred the standard execution (aka "show me the guts").

I bought a couple of Map Packs, wasn't satisfied, and haven't looked back. Until now. This is the first Map Pack I've seen that excited me in forever. If the reactions are any indication, it looks like you've designed a product that people who like Map Packs enough to subscribe are not interested in as a whole, but some customers that are less committed to Map Packs really like.

Guys, please don't misunderstand. We will continue to innovate and do interesting Map Packs. But I think it's important that they remain, you know, MAPS.

This one didn't really turn out that way. Future Map Packs will be MAPS.

For example, we won't do a Map Pack Conditions, with the word "Helpless" on one card and a bunch of spaces you can put you helpless miniatures off to the side of the battle area.

We won't do that because it would be a bad idea, and people would be right to be frustrated by it.

So don't worry that we're just going to do dungeon corridors and stuff. I mean, extradimensional spaces was an oddball idea, and very few people complained because, at the end of the day, it was still a MAP.

That's fair enough - I just wanted to make sure you were hearing opinions on both sides.

That's fair enough - I just wanted to make sure you were hearing opinions on both sides.

QFT.

I was actually going to pass on this one, until I saw the sample images. Now I think it's more useful than my first impressions led me to believe. Don't get me wrong, I love more "generic" map packs, but this one would be a worthwhile exception.

Fair enough Erik, although I will say with this one I for one LIKE the idea of it being a silhouette because unless your swallowed character has an ever-burning torch, an active light or daylight spell or a similar object or effect on them when they get swallowed you would not be able to SEE the actual inside of the monster; it would be BLACK. Darkvision would still not give colour but some hints of shape at best, so actually showing the guts would, for me at least, destroy the versimilitude. With a ship, to use a comparison brought up earlier, you actually have port holes and hatches allowing light into the ship so you can clearly see the ship around, monsters (with one or two exceptions) are opaque and thus you couldn't actually see the insides. My 2 cp

Question: what is the gullet row 3 from the top, left image?

I think it goes: Top to bottom left to right

Row 1: Behir, crocodile
Row 2: Dragon, Froghemoth
Row 3: Unknown, Giant flytrap
Row 4: Purple Worm, Remorhaz (Frost Worm, whatever you call it)
Row 5: Sea Serpent, Shark
Row 6: Tyrannosaurus, Tarrasque
Row 7: Cachalot Whale?

Question: what is the gullet row 3 from the top, left image?

I think it goes: Top to bottom left to right

Row 1: Behir, crocodile
Row 2: Dragon, Froghemoth
Row 3: Unknown, Giant flytrap
Row 4: Purple Worm, Remorhaz (Frost Worm, whatever you call it)
Row 5: Sea Serpent, Shark
Row 6: Tyrannosaurus, Tarrasque
Row 7: Cachalot Whale?

From the name of the image the unknown is a Gelatinous Cube.

What a brilliant idea!

Steven Purcell wrote:

Question: what is the gullet row 3 from the top, left image?

I think it goes: Top to bottom left to right

Row 1: Behir, crocodile
Row 2: Dragon, Froghemoth
Row 3: Unknown, Giant flytrap
Row 4: Purple Worm, Remorhaz (Frost Worm, whatever you call it)
Row 5: Sea Serpent, Shark
Row 6: Tyrannosaurus, Tarrasque
Row 7: Cachalot Whale?

From the name of the image the unknown is a Gelatinous Cube.

Ah once I took another look at it I could see that. Just looked odd on a first look through - more like a trap than a creature.

... as for myself I will use the blank squares to add what I want the creatures GI tract to look like. And add things like treasure or creatures.

"OH Crap. Like being swallowed by purple worm wasnt bad enough, now my frakkin dm made an abberration parasite that lives in a purple worm. I hate you so much!!"
"MWHAHAHAHA!!!

What a marvelous idea. It's the perfect place to use that Ng'ok figure that I just got :)

I have to agree with those who want more like this. The execution left me wanting, but I really love wacky ideas like this. Please do more of them, and execute them in a better way.

Oh, I love the IDEA. I just agree that the execution is lacking. But, I'll still get it. Who knows, maybe we'll find some use for them another way.

Looks like an intersting idea. Finally maps for the old video game trope of the "inside big monster's body" level. I am very much looking forward to seeing the final versions.

Wow, this thread went quite a ways. As the cartographer, I understand both sides of the discussion and concerns for this product. You can try to please everyone, but there are some whom this product might not be right for in their gaming environment. When I receive a creative brief or sit with the brand managers to discuss the next map product, we go into great detail about the execution of the product as a whole. Front, back, how the pieces fit together, or if these coincide with another map product. This product, from the beginning, was a concept. I'm not going to apologize for the final results. I think they turned out great, plus it was an opportunity to actually hand draw and ink most of the creature's silhouettes...which I think I'll bring to share at Paizo Con. As Erik Mona stated, the goal of this product line is to create compelling maps to engage the players. This product does that, just not in the conventional manner. Now, Hellscapes on the other hand...wow, are you guys in for a treat!

This product, from the beginning, was a concept. I'm not going to apologize for the final results. I think they turned out great...

If you don't like this product, don't blame Corey—blame us; he did his usual great job executing the concept we gave him.

And if you do like it, of course Corey deserves as much of your praise as anyone.

Uh, wait, why are these necessary? When a character is swallowed, you don't need a separate map for this. They either roll attacks or whatever to get out or get digested. I doubt any character swallowed whole will want to stay in long enough to even warrant the need for a map.

Seconding the notion that I liked the idea (and the execution on the Whale maps) but the simple "shilouette and grid" details on all the other maps was pretty disappointing.

I still like the majority of the maps shpwing up on my subscription, but if another poorly executed concept like this comes across, I'd probably suspend the subscription and go with individually researched purchases.

Definitely not worth the price of admnission in my mind.

This seems like a good idea, but I dislike it for two reasons: one, it was done wrong as a map, and two, it shouldn't have been a map anyway. This would be awesome if it were on smaller, clear sheets, like overhead projector pages. The ability to put it down on an existing battlemap, using it as both a monster and mini-gut map at the same time, would have been awesome.

Uh, wait, why are these necessary? When a character is swallowed, you don't need a separate map for this. They either roll attacks or whatever to get out or get digested. I doubt any character swallowed whole will want to stay in long enough to even warrant the need for a map.

Our group fought a gelatinous cube last night. Two characters were engulfed and paralyzed, one character was engulfed but not paralyzed. So we had 3 PCs inside the creature, two of which were stuck for the duration (cube paralysis lasts 3d6 rounds) and a third was trying to fight her way out. Given that the gelatinous cube miniature is 2" square, fitting three 1"-base minis inside of it won't work, and putting them on top of it means they're prone to fall off (especially if you move the mini). So the clearest way to show this is to move the engulfed characters' minis off to the side, and the Swallowed Whole map for those characters is a good way to track that (otherwise they're merely elsewhere on the map, and you don't know where they are in relation to the cube, unless you draw a square on the map, in which case you may wonder later "what is this square thing on the map?").

...you don't know where they are in relation to the cube, unless you draw a square on the map, in which case you may wonder later "what is this square thing on the map?").

A REINFORCEMENT GELATINOUS CUBE!

KILLITKILLITKILLIT!

I thought this map pack was awesome and I'm tempted to get it even though I'm not a map pack subscriber.

Also, even if this map pack is not well liked and I am in the minority, I really dig the fact that you guys were willing to try it and see if it flies. As always, you are awesome in regards to listening to feedback, but please don't be afraid to continue offering crazy products like this from time to time. Hopefully, I'm not alone in this sentiment.

+1

And don't forget, if you want the PCs to get flushed through a really colossal monster, there's always the boards from Advanced Space Crusade!

I love that there's a thriving ecosystem inside the whale. Hell, there's probably enough room in there to drive a car through it.

While not as practical as other sets, I'll find ways to use this one. Ways, no doubt, that will drive my players insane. >:)

Concept 10/10

Execution 2/10(it would have been 1 if not for the whale)

Glad to hear we wont be seeing anything else like this

Just wanted to note that the whale from this map pack is currently on show in the Terra Incognita: Maps of Fantasy Worlds exhibition in New York - and it looks stunning.