Monster Menagerie: Demonic Harlots (PFRPG) PDF

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Welcome to Demonic Harlots, the eighth in our line of Monster Menagerie monster books. Each volume in this line presents a small set of monsters tied to a single theme, but spread over a range of CRs. For Demonic Harlots, that theme is succubi and all the tricks, tools, and plots of the most treacherous breed of demonkind. In addition to breeds of succubi for a wide range of desires and fetishes, we provide an insight into the mind of temptress demons as a whole, and a range of items, feats, and spells used extensively by the consorts of the Abyss.

The range of CRs for the demonic harlots is not as broad as in previous Monster Menageries, running only from 6 to 14. The reasons for this is fairly straightforward – demons as a whole already cover a huge range of CRs, and many of the iconic abilities of the succubus simply work best in the middle range of class levels. However, this does not need to mean succubi don’t feature into adventures set at higher or lower CRs.

At the lower levels of a game, an agitator or thyiades makes a fine mastermind villain. Her lower-level lovers and slaves can form the majority of threats a party faces during an adventure, with the confrontation with the succubus herself serving as a climactic final battle set a few CR above the PCs’ average level. At higher levels, a dark mistress or puppeteer can serve as the guard or companion of a more powerful demon, or a pack of cursed of Epithumia can form a fine high-level challenge.

So draw the shades, light some candles, and kiss your soul goodbye. A pack of demonic harlots is waiting to serve your every imaginable GM need.

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The best Mythic Menagerie yet!

5/5

This pdf is 16 pages long, 1 page front cover (gorgeous, by the way), 1 page SRD/editorial, leaving 14 pages of content, so let' check out the neat demonic femme fatales!

After a foreword, we are introduced to the first creature, but prior to getting into the crunch, I feel the need to address something - this review is based on the original version, prior to the minor redesign. If the title "Demonic Harlots" and the succubus in the throes of ecstasy on the cover were no indicator enough, I'll spell it out: This pdf is not necessarily safe for work. Although in my work climate there would be no problem with this imagery (some of my colleagues sporting more suggestive desktop backgrounds), I gather that in America people tend to be more sensitive with regards to even vaguely sexual content. This pdf, while featuring mature topics, does so in a mature manner and at least to me, felt not explicit in any way. Point being: I can't really imagine anyone being offended by this pdf, but I have been proven wrong before. Discretion is advised.

That out of the way, let's check out the sultry seductresses who will drag your PC's drooling souls to the deepest pit of the Abyss!
In contrast to the other installments of the Mythic Menagerie-line, we start off with a primer mentioning a succubus-demon lord and the topic of incubi, the male counterparts of succubi. Special mention deserve e.g. the short discussion of preferred demonic genders and how e.g. a matriarchal society would be haunted by more incubi to better subvert the power-structure. It's just one page, but it felt like a nice read nevertheless.

The first variant creature, the CR 10 Agitator has one of the coolest signature abilities I've seen in quite a while - emotional flare enables them to escalate latent emotions into potentially lethal proportions and make any crowd beholden to their chaotic whims.

The CR 14 Cursed of Epithumia is a deadly Succubus cursed by aforementioned Queen of Succubi. Punished for their ambitions, these disfigured creatures can split old scars and ooze molten lead from their ever-festering wounds to make armors for themselves, cover their foes in it etc. A plethora of cool signature abilities is provided, but for the Cursed, these blessings taste like ash - after all, they can only temporarily maintain a facade of beauty and most of the time have to spend their existences as disfigured, tortured creatures.

The next creature is a well-known entity on the Paizo-boards, our favorite reviewer-succubus Dark Mistress, or to be more precise, a race of beings named after her. These fiendish creatures are a blending of shadow demon and succubus, resulting in a new kind of critter with deadly shadow-based attacks - again, sporting not one, but several unique abilities. I bet the original Dark Mistress approves of this fine take. :)

Some creatures are the quintessential shadow entity behind guilds and plans, hiding behind legions of associates. The CR 8 Pupeteer Succubus is perhaps one of the coolest creatures I've seen in quite a while, drawing strength from her enchanted slaves and being able to use their senses. The PCs will have to act smart to catch these wily schemers off guard.

The CR 6 savage Thyiades, a kind of primal succubus focused on consorting with (and twisting) fey with her infernal taint. To make matters worse, they can unhallow whole stretches of land... Neat!

For rather kinky sinners, the tormentors (CR 11) are essentially BDSM-succubi that can have a neat signature curse which makes their victims yearn for damage. Add spiky body piercings and some hex-related abilities and you get a cool foe indeed. Although the tendency to portray BDSM as an evil or destructive act (which it is not - Safe, sane and consensual) in media in general tends to annoy me, this take on the trope of sadistic temptress is mechanically interesting enough for me to enjoy it.

That's not where the pdf stops, though: 5 new feats for Succubi are introduced that range from improved shapechanging to glyph-studded, arcane wings and even an additional stinger attack, which might act as an elixir of love - neat and offers a lot of story-telling potential.

We also get 5 new magic items, which contain a flail made from vargouilles, a retreiver-crown and ENCHANTED lingerie! Yes! (I know the thought of chainmail bikinis is not popular with some folks. For succubi, though? Come on - of course you tend to miss her when the shifting links of chains draw your eyes to semi-concealed places!)

The final section of the pdf provides us with 5 new spells, containing the sheer genius aspect transformation, which lets the succubus bypass some wards and a spell which is storytelling GOLD. Sculpt the Dead lets a caster make a dead being look like specific beings. I can spontaneously come up with about 6 complex investigation plots featuring this spell. Gold!

Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are top-notch, this time I noticed no editing or formatting errors - if the increased price comes with an increase in quality, I'm all for it. Especially when the price is still a fair $4.99. That being said, the b/w-artworks are nice and the layout adheres to the 2-column standard. Author Sam Hing has done it - this is the very best installment of Mythic Menageries to date - plenty of content and signature abilities, cool supplemental material, neat prose, no gripes. This is how mini monster manuals should be. My final verdict will be 5 stars and the Endzeitgeist seal of approval - well done!


Need some new succubi? Look no further.

4/5

Mythic Menagerie: Demonic Harlots by Super Genius Games

This product is 16 pages long. It starts with a cover and forward. (2 pages)

Demonic Harlots (9 pages)
First we get a introduction to the succubi including the incubi. With a bit on selling your soul and a a couple of paragraphs about the queen of the succubi Epithumia and those trying to claim the title. Next we get into the new types of succubi of which there is 6. A brief description of each follows.
Agitator – CR10 These succubi feed on strong emotions, they can confuse their foes and cause them to feel a wide range of strong emotions.
Cursed of Epithumia – CR14 losing their beauty but gaining combat abilities, this horrid creatures are the warriors of the succubi.
Dark Mistress – CR9 They are a fusion between a shadow demon and a succubus. Having many of the same powers as a regular succubus they also have powers over shadow. The first of them rebelled against Epithumia and has tried to claim the title herself.
Puppeteer – CR8 These succubi are like this default sisters only even more geared for seduction, trickery and domination of others.
Thyiades – CR6 these are fey infused succubi.
Tormentors – CR11 unlike most succubi who offer pleasure they offer pain so dear as to be it's own sort of pleasure. They are expert torturers among demon kind.

Expanded Rules (4 pages)
There is 5 feats, while mostly geared toward succubi, some of them would work well for tiefling claiming succubi heritage and a couple fit for others as well. There is also 5 new succubus inspired magic items, that is common among them. The prices range from 6,000 to 72,000. Finally there is 5 new spells. They can be just allowed or limited as rewards taught to those that manage to gain the favor of a succubus.

It ends with a OGL and credits. (1 pages)

Closing thoughts. The artwork is black and white other than the cover image. They range from pretty good to good. I should note there is some mild nudity in some of the images in the book. Editing and layout was good, I didn't notice any errors. The new succubi where fairly interesting with well done histories. I think the Thyiades would have been more interesting as a fey cross bread but otherwise they was well done. This product is a Mythic Menagerie so first and foremost it is a monster book, to expand upon the succubus demon. The new versions of which some look much like normal succubi or can pass for them with their powers. Should keep PC's on their toes even more around them. So what's my rating? Well I am a fan of the subject matter. Still I think it is a well done product. With the higher price, which I imagine is due to the better than normal artwork. I am going to give this one a 4 star review. I liked it but felt it could have had just a bit more to push it over the top.

Trust me, I'm a Succubus.


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Liberty's Edge

I sort of wish that the "Overheard at the Paizo Office" thread contained the discussion that was held about this book.

I have like a hundred and one jokes, but out of respect for everyone involved, I'll not tell them.

But I am cackling here in my basement, let me tell you.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

<< Insert generic Euro-rant about how the primitive, puritan redneck American society dictates what gaming companies do. >>


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
<< Insert generic Euro-rant about how the primitive, puritan redneck American society dictates what gaming companies do. >>

So there with you even though I'me American. I was all ready to get this one...and then it wasn't available...and then it was again, but censored, and I can't buy a censored product on principle. *sigh*


Coming soon, "The Pathfinder RPG compatible, Illustrated Songs of Solomon".

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well since I seem to have started this by asking the question...

Rant
There's nothing preventing a product called "Tantric Magic, letting your wizards use the Kama Sutra in your game" complete with photorealistic images, from being made.

What it is prevented from being is slapping the "Pathfinder Compatible" license on it. This is no more 'censorship' than my not putting out "Matthew's half-arsed set of completely unbalanced magic crap." I'd not put such a thing* up on google docs for download because I'd not want my name associated with it. Paizo requires certain guidelines to be followed to use their compatibility rules. Sometimes something as minor as "Topless succubi" might seem a bit drastic, but the saying 'corner cases make bad law' applies here.

Would you buy the product from SGG, if you'd not known it was an edited version? I would**.

*

Spoiler:
Well not intentionally. I'm sure if I ever get the baker's dozen of items finished, someone might call it 'completely unbalanced magic crap', but it's not like I put it up to make a quick buck.

**

Spoiler:
I get the SGG stuff through my DaD account. So edited or not, I'd still have it. The reason for asking was that I read material while auditing calls. I wanted to, based on the topic, make sure that I could read it, and still be employed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:


What it is prevented from being is slapping the "Pathfinder Compatible" license on it. This is no more 'censorship' than my not putting out "Matthew's half-arsed set of completely unbalanced magic crap." I'd not put such a thing* up on google docs for download because I'd not want my name associated with it.

Except what you're talking about is quality control. Paizo may not have wanted their name associated with it, but it wasn't because it was complete crap. I think if it was, that wouldn't have been such a problem - I'm not sure Paizo even have time to determine if something passes a particular quality threshold. Our indefatigable reviewers would soon let the public know if it was a one star product. It has to do with standards of decency, and whether Paizo want their brand associated with something as inflammatory as breasts. Glancing at Mirriam-Webster, we find censorship defined as 'to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable.' If you think the product was altered because it was crap rather than concerns about the material causing offence, then fair enough, otherwise - it's pretty clearly censorship.

You may think the reason was valid, and you may very well be right, but please don't redefine words based on what you'd rather they meant.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
theneofish wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


What it is prevented from being is slapping the "Pathfinder Compatible" license on it. This is no more 'censorship' than my not putting out "Matthew's half-arsed set of completely unbalanced magic crap." I'd not put such a thing* up on google docs for download because I'd not want my name associated with it.

Except what you're talking about is quality control. Paizo may not have wanted their name associated with it, but it wasn't because it was complete crap. I think if it was, that wouldn't have been such a problem - I'm not sure Paizo even have time to determine if something passes a particular quality threshold. Our indefatigable reviewers would soon let the public know if it was a one star product. It has to do with standards of decency, and whether Paizo want their brand associated with something as inflammatory as breasts. Glancing at Mirriam-Webster, we find censorship defined as 'to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable.' If you think the product was altered because it was crap rather than concerns about the material causing offence, then fair enough, otherwise - it's pretty clearly censorship.

You may think the reason was valid, and you may very well be right, but please don't redefine words based on what you'd rather they meant.

It is really simple the license says no Adult Content, SGG knew that when they put the book out. It broke the license and had to be redone to accommodate that. They also could have left it alone and not used the license, that was their choice. It isn't censorship.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Justin Franklin wrote:


It is really simple the license says no Adult Content, SGG knew that when they put the book out. It broke the license and had to be redone to accommodate that. They also could have left it alone and not used the license, that was their choice. It isn't censorship.

Thank you Justin, for saying what I was getting at in a shorter fashion.*

@theneofish
Paizo *did* find it objectionable. If I had a list of items I thought were 'crap' and chose not to publish it, that would be censorship (self censorship is still censorship). In that case I'm censoring my own work, because I find it objectionable. Not all censorship is bad.

I'd also note that Paizo had no problems with it being put up. It was only *after* I asked the question (and Owen graciously replied) that TPTB decided it crossed the line. To me, it says more about Paizo that they A) Trust the publishers and B) Trust the readers to help 'police' their community use guidelines. This says a lot to me about the 'libertarian' PoV they take.**

To quote Janet Napolotano, "The system worked."*** While not my intent, Paizo was alerted to the adult content, determined it broke the Community Use standards, and provided SGG a chance to correct it.

*

Spoiler:
Another reason I don't write for a living, stupid word counts :P

**
Spoiler:
By 'Libertarian' I mean 'hands off, minimal involvement' I'm not trying to drag politics into the thread. Besides, anyone who's read my writings know that I'm pretty far to the right of the 'Hippy Dippy Tree Huggers' at Paizo. ;-)

***
Spoiler:
Unlike when she used the quote to say that 'the system' stopped the Fruit of Kaboom bomber.

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
<< Insert generic Euro-rant about how the primitive, puritan redneck American society dictates what gaming companies do. >>

Nods and joins the Euro-rant.

Liberty's Edge

Readerbreeder wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

I just wanted to chime in to say that, in my opnion at least, Owen's comments above are pretty much the epitome of class.

Agreed.
Seconded (or rather, thirded)... I have to say, while I have never had the privilege of meeting Owen (an oversight I would love to rectify someday), from all of the interaction I have had with him (the Unfortunate Incident over at DaD, the recent Harlots Hiccup), he has done nothing but exude classiness, both in his reactions to the situation and the direction he chooses to take afterward.

I've had the priviledge of numerous private conversations with Owen and SGG over the last few years and I can say that he is as classy and decent in private as he is on these forums :)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Justin Franklin wrote:
It is really simple the license says no Adult Content, SGG knew that when they put the book out. It broke the license and had to be redone to accommodate that. They also could have left it alone and not used the license, that was their choice. It isn't censorship.

Actually, theneofish is right - it is censorship, technically speaking. The fact that their work broke the license isn't really part of the question as to what is or is not censorship; it's more appropriate to ask whether or not an existing work is edited to remove objectionable material. Questions of who edits it, who finds what objectionable, and the like aren't relevant to applying the definition.

Matthew Morris wrote:
While not my intent, Paizo was alerted to the adult content, determined it broke the Community Use standards, and provided SGG a chance to correct it.

The last part of this sentence doesn't seem correct. How did Paizo "provide" a chance to correct the book? It was taken down by the Paizo staff, and SGG then removed it from RPGNow/DTRPG, reworked it, and resubmitted it to both sites. Correcting it had nothing to do with any sort of magnanimity on Paizo's part.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd just like to be clear on this: nobody at Paizo actually reviewed the product's content, either before *or* after it was modified—Super Genius *themselves* ticked the "Adult Content" box on the upload form when they sent it to us. When I noticed that, I pointed out that the license they elected to use says "You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors," so they could either adjust the content so that they no longer needed to check that box, or they could remove the Compatibility logo. They chose to revise the content to the point that they feel it no longer needs the Adult Content flag, and they themselves have been the sole arbiter of what they needed to do to make that happen.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alzrius wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
It is really simple the license says no Adult Content, SGG knew that when they put the book out. It broke the license and had to be redone to accommodate that. They also could have left it alone and not used the license, that was their choice. It isn't censorship.

Actually, theneofish is right - it is censorship, technically speaking. The fact that their work broke the license isn't really part of the question as to what is or is not censorship; it's more appropriate to ask whether or not an existing work is edited to remove objectionable material. Questions of who edits it, who finds what objectionable, and the like aren't relevant to applying the definition.

Since Paizo can not force SGG to remove the content it doesn't meet the definition of censorship.

Grand Lodge

Justin Franklin wrote:
Since Paizo can not force SGG to remove the content it doesn't meet the definition of censorship.

Paizo just did. SGG was going to publish it, but Paizo said no you can't, unless you remove "adult content". That is censorship.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

SGG DID publish it. People bought the adult version.

Paizo said they needed to remove the PF logo to keep it like that.

So SGG did not have to remove anything but Paizo's own trademark property.

Super Genius Games

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Folks, nobody forced us to do anything. We completely and voluntarily fixed the artwork in such a way that we felt it no longer needed an adult warning. We could have released the book without the Pathfinder logo but chose this route instead.

The folks at Paizo are all 100% awesome. Well, except for Bulmahn, he's only 98% awesome. ;)

This was a SGG decision, one we feel is the best one for the company.

Now, we might release the original version someday when we form Evil Genius Games...


Tempest.

Teapot.

Good product, good folks on both sides.

I bought it because SGG put it out, making it more likely to be a quality product, and it happened to coincide with a local project. While I haven't read thru the product in detail as yet, what I *have* read of it reinforces my opinion of SGG. What I've seen here reinforces my opinions of SGG and Paizo. Granted, for most of you, that doesn't really count for anything at all. But hey - it's pushing 12:30 in the morning, so I'm compelled to throw my opinion into the tempest. It's like a requirement for internet access or something - the later it is, the higher the DC for the Will save to avoid posting your opinions...

Silver Crusade

Marc Radle wrote:

I just wanted to chime in to say that, in my opnion at least, Owen's comments above are pretty much the epitome of class.

Word.

Also, with the recent explanation about exactly why this was originally taken down, I wonder if the Conan RPG books are tagged as adult content, given what's on the page borders on every single book in that line.

...guess there's one way to find out....

EDIT

signs out

signs in

Looks like it isn't, huh. Not to throw gas on anything, just wondering if that's another scale-of-content angle to look at.

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:

<< Insert generic Euro-rant about how the primitive, puritan redneck American society dictates what gaming companies do. >>

+1

Vic Wertz wrote:

(...) "You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors," (...)

Museums with art from Renaissance are adult content? Where is the thin red line? Michelangelo's David's penis is offensive? Renaissance artwork (the vatican has many naked men and women in its walls and ceilings) is inappropiate for minors? Is the succubus 'Lilith'(1892) by John Collier mature content?

It's ridiculous... Dammed american general public...

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
R. Hyrum Savage wrote:
Now, we might release the original version someday when we form Evil Genius Games...

Can I ask what is stopping you from releasing the non-censored version without the Pathfinder Logo?

I've already purchased it, but if it were offered as a non-censored version as well then I would most probably still buy that one too.

You could even charge more for it (say $7.99) because it has "adult content" in it. I can't see this affecting your sales at all, since you would actually get some increased money from the people who are willing to buy the adult version. Those people would have bought the regular version anyway and as it's a .pdf it's not like it's taking away from printed copies.

Just food for thought...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

@theneofish

Paizo *did* find it objectionable. If I had a list of items I thought were 'crap' and chose not to publish it, that would be censorship (self censorship is still censorship). In that case I'm censoring my own work, because I find it objectionable. Not all censorship is bad.

No, no. I completely agree. That wasn't the point of my post either here, or in the other thread. Not all censorship is bad, and self censorship goes on all the time.

Nowhere did I say that censorship necessarily = bad. That's something you're inferring based on a) your reading of my post, and b) your assumptions about the word. What I'm querying specifically is your use of the English language. You specifically said it wasn't censorship. Under the definition of the word, yes it is, because the word encompasses what happened.

Let me clarify my position. I simply popped on here to say, effectively, 'well, I don't really have an opinion one way or another as to whether this was good or bad, justified or not justified, valid or invalid. But - as a lifelong lover of the English language - please don't disguise, or obfuscate, or otherwise misrepresent the definition of a particular word.' I'm viewing this as an English teacher, not a moral arbiter. As others have pointed out, I'm taking issue with your technical understanding of the word, not the motive / actions / decisions of two publishers.

If you held a gun to my head, I'd have to say it was justified because of Paizo's position in the marketplace, and the profile that they are striving to achieve in the wider public consciousness. I thought it was a shame, but there are commercial realities involved. If anything should be criticised, it's the twisted cultural mindset that embraces casual violence enthusiastically, but believes representations of the naked human form damaging and repugnant. I don't criticise Paizo for having to conform to that.

So there's no need to explain self-censorship to me, or adult material, or the nature of the editing. I understand all that, and have no argument with any of it.

For the record, I've bought the product, it rocks, I wish it had been twice as long, and the artwork is merely average with our without nipples.


R. Hyrum Savage wrote:
Now, we might release the original version someday when we form Evil Genius Games...

Ooh, can't wait for that one then, if you do!

And for the record, I love Paizo. I'm not saying "Paizo R ebil!!" Far from it - it's simply a value judgement for me that I can't support something that was changed "to protect the children" basically. No matter who was the one doing the changing - it was (obviously) meant to be one way, it was changed from that because someone might get offended. That's something I just can't support - I have no ill will over it. Disappointment that I didn't get it before it was changed, yes, but no ill will.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
flash_cxxi wrote:


Can I ask what is stopping you from releasing the non-censored version without the Pathfinder Logo?

I've already purchased it, but if it were offered as a non-censored version as well then I would most probably still buy that one too.

You could even charge more for it (say $7.99) because it has "adult content" in it. I can't see this affecting your sales at all, since you would actually get some increased money from the people who are willing to buy the adult version. Those people would have bought the regular version anyway and as it's a .pdf it's not like it's taking away from printed copies.

Just food for thought...

I'd buy it again as well, but I'd also love a few extra succubus variants in the mix.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Vic Wertz wrote:

I'd just like to be clear on this: nobody at Paizo actually reviewed the product's content, either before *or* after it was modified—Super Genius *themselves* ticked the "Adult Content" box on the upload form when they sent it to us. When I noticed that, I pointed out that the license they elected to use says "You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors," so they could either adjust the content so that they no longer needed to check that box, or they could remove the Compatibility logo. They chose to revise the content to the point that they feel it no longer needs the Adult Content flag, and they themselves have been the sole arbiter of what they needed to do to make that happen.

Thank you for clarifying this. Having never put anything up for sale, I was unfamiliar with the process. Now I'm enlightened.


I can see both sides of this..as someone that is, in a sense an artist..you hate the idea of you freedom to do your art changed for a broad standards that may or may not even apply to MOST of your readership/viewers.
BUT
I also see the other side..like it or not there ARE standards of culture..and not sticking to them can bring a firestorm of trouble.
I don't see or review any of the art of pretty much anything I write, for any company...not my department, so to speak. I was amused when I opened my copy of the book, because it was pushing it, and I figured this would happen..but I also thought the art worked for the content. I am fine with it being edited as well..Paizo has the rules in place to cover their butts..and as silly as parts of the US culture is in this day and age..its still is what it is. I would rather have a Pathfinder game to write for..and play..then see it risk going up in flames. Also..the debate this caused was a good thing..there have been several edgy products put out in the last month or so..pushing the boundries is important..and so is civil conversation about it.

I am pretty proud of all parties..this could have gotten immature and ugly..but everyone is united in the fact that no one wants to risk the game over nipples.

Contributor

Why not offer a copy with the compatibility logo removed, so people can decide on the version they want to purchase?

Dark Archive

Really people the difference is very minor. One picture had something added to cover up one of the succubi and that was it as far as I can tell that was changed.

I am all for paizo and other 3pp pushing things in the adult way. Like paizo did with some of the RotRL and I would be happy if 3pp did it too and while I would rather them have left the image alone. It really is a minor issue considering the text content and other images where left the same.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Justin Franklin wrote:
Since Paizo can not force SGG to remove the content it doesn't meet the definition of censorship.

This is, strictly speaking, incorrect. "Force" is not a necessary component of censorship. Certainly, if it was, self-censorship wouldn't exist.

Dark_Mistress wrote:
One picture had something added to cover up one of the succubi and that was it as far as I can tell that was changed.

Just one picture? I'm a little surprised, given that the original had three topless succubi.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blackerose wrote:
..but everyone is united in the fact that no one wants to risk the game over nipples.

charges by en route to glory

MY KINGDOM FOR A NIPPLE!

pushes steed onward

HAH!!!

The Exchange

LOL!

Okay... now I want the Order of the Chauvinist to be an official new Cavalier order... :)


ProfPotts wrote:

LOL!

Okay... now I want the Order of the Chauvinist to be an official new Cavalier order... :)

Until then, we'll have to content ourselves with the unofficial version.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hmm... may have to try to get this one for my fey'ri godling of Lust and Dreams. LOL... of course, it has to go through wife approval first and foremost. ;-)

In regards to the whole slew of people talking about "adult themes" and "censorship", it's usually best to err on the side of caution, I would think. It doesn't sound like any one really forced anyone else to change, it sounds pretty mutual to me.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Would I be off point to ask"
"Is any of the material here usable from a "player" context"?

Dark Archive

Lord Fyre wrote:

Would I be off point to ask"

"Is any of the material here usable from a "player" context"?

It is mostly a mini monster book. With that said though, some of the feats, spells, and magic items is useable by PC's. Feats especially might work for a tiefling claiming succubus heritage.

Scarab Sages

Lord Fyre wrote:

Would I be off point to ask"

"Is any of the material here usable from a "player" context"?

DM scooped me here, but she's right.

I do have a more player-oriented seduction-and-demons product in playtesting, but I don;t expect it to go live for a few weeks at the earliest.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
It is mostly a mini monster book. With that said though, some of the feats, spells, and magic items is useable by PC's. Feats especially might work for a tiefling claiming succubus heritage.

DM, your tempting me into getting the book.

Will save: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22

Aha, not right now.

edit:
10 minutes later.....
darn it, I'm caving in.

Dark Archive

reviewed.


Neat review, D_M! I'm really looking forward to completing my MM reviews now. :)

Scarab Sages

Dark_Mistress wrote:
reviewed.

Many thanks!

Dark Archive

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Neat review, D_M! I'm really looking forward to completing my MM reviews now. :)

Yeah I am caught up on my SGG now, least of those I have. I have 18 left to review but many of them 11 to be exact are adventures which always I find slow and hard to review.

You're welcome Owen.

The Exchange

Dark_Mistress wrote:
reviewed.

Thanks, D_M.


Reviewed here, on GMSmagazine and posted a Top 3 on RPGaggression. Cheers!


End, do you happen to know if the text of the original version is the same as the text of the current version?


Dungeon Grrrl wrote:
End, do you happen to know if the text of the original version is the same as the text of the current version?

I'm not entirely sure, Dungeon Grrrl. I only downloaded the original, being not too keen on a revised, censored version. I just dled it for you.

I think some minor alterations might have been made, but mostly the text looks like the same. I'm currently working and in no position to go through the file with a fine-tooth comb, but I think very minor changes have been made.

Hope I could be of assistance...

Shadow Lodge

Dungeon Grrrl wrote:
End, do you happen to know if the text of the original version is the same as the text of the current version?

I DLed both, and alt-tabbed back and forth between the two versions. The only changes that I noticed were the addition of a few small additions to the pictures in the "censored" version. Absolutely no text changes at all.

Super Genius Games

There are no text changes at all. We just swapped art out.

Hyrum.


Just purchased. There's a lot to like here, but I see some problems.

1) Feats: the Arcane Wings feat is cool, but it's also just crazy overpowered. Two fifth level spells for a single feat? Dude. Also, as written it could be taken by a slightly-above-average imp, which is insane. I might allow this if you crank up the requirements.

Lust's Sweet Sting, while not as far over the top, is also pretty overpowered. Why would any sensible succubus not take this feat? Extra attack for a little damage, chance to debuff some Wis, *and* a 1 in 20 chance to end the combat right there?

I like both these things -- they're cool ideas -- but they do not work as feats.

2) Shouldn't a magic item that grants a +1 deflection bonus, perpetual Protection From Good and Mirror Image once/day cost more than 6,000 gp? Also, note that the +1 deflection bonus wouldn't stack with the bonus from the spell, because that's a deflection bonus too.

3) The chainmail lingerie is another cool idea that seems mechanically a little underthought. Does it use a slot? Does the bonus stack with her natural armor? Does it impose an armor check penalty, or a chance of spell-like ability failure?

4) The Agitator's Emotional Flare power is just way, way out of proportion. It's a CR 10 creature that can set off an emotion bomb with a *mile* radius and a *day* duration? DC 14 save or be affected all day long? That's a good-sized city shut down, or an army taken out with one shot. Yes, it's a FRA that's usable once/week and leaves her fatigued for an hour... and it's still unbalanced. She's CR 10, so a not terribly high level caster could summon her. Is this really a good idea?

5) The Thyiades is supposed to be CR 6. However, her stats are way, way better than the CR 8 standard succubus: Dex 20 vs. Dex 17, Con 22 vs. Con 18, Wis 21 (!) vs. Wis 14, and an eye-watering 29 Cha. She has better AC and better saves than the standard succubus, and she can cast Charm Animal (DC 20) and Suggestion (DC 22) at will, plus a bunch of other stuff once or twice/day. And then there's her Primal Gift, which pretty much lets her kill animals and fey at will: Dominate/Charm/Suggestion with DCs 20-22, "Here, take this gift", grant gift, remove gift, rrrrip 3d6 Con damage.

Look at those stats and ask yourself: would this be an appropriate boss encounter for a group of 3rd level PCs? Even encountered cold -- not using her Unhallowed Land power, or accompanied by charmed fiendish animals -- she'd tear them apart.

I'd nerf her stats -- -4 to Dex, Con, Wis and Cha -- and still call her CR 7.

6) The Puppeteer's Strength of Legions: a neat idea, but... do the math. A Puppeteer can control up to 50 slaves. (And with a DC 24 gaze attack, she'll have little trouble reaching that limit.) That grants her a whopping +50 temporary hp, +5 to AC, and +5 to all saves.

And she's supposed to be CR 8? Pause to contemplate a group of 8th level characters walking into this. This isn't a "use 1/4 of the party's resources" encounter; it's a "party flees or spends the rest of their lives as a demon's slaves" encounter.

I don't object to the concept. But DC 24 Dominate as a gaze attack at will = this chick is not CR 8. CR 10, mmmaybe.

Overall: cool ideas, but needed more editing.

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


Just purchased. There's a lot to like here, but I see some problems.

1) Feats: the Arcane Wings feat is cool, but it's also just crazy overpowered. Two fifth level spells for a single feat? Dude. Also, as written it could be taken by a slightly-above-average imp, which is insane. I might allow this if you crank up the requirements.

Lust's Sweet Sting, while not as far over the top, is also pretty overpowered. Why would any sensible succubus not take this feat? Extra attack for a little damage, chance to debuff some Wis, *and* a 1 in 20 chance to end the combat right there?

I like both these things -- they're cool ideas -- but they do not work as feats.

2) Shouldn't a magic item that grants a +1 deflection bonus, perpetual Protection From Good and Mirror Image once/day cost more than 6,000 gp? Also, note that the +1 deflection bonus wouldn't stack with the bonus from the spell, because that's a deflection bonus too.

3) The chainmail lingerie is another cool idea that seems mechanically a little underthought. Does it use a slot? Does the bonus stack with her natural armor? Does it impose an armor check penalty, or a chance of spell-like ability failure?

4) The Agitator's Emotional Flare power is just way, way out of proportion. It's a CR 10 creature that can set off an emotion bomb with a *mile* radius and a *day* duration? DC 14 save or be affected all day long? That's a good-sized city shut down, or an army taken out with one shot. Yes, it's a FRA that's usable once/week and leaves her fatigued for an hour... and it's still unbalanced. She's CR 10, so a not terribly high level caster could summon her. Is this really a good idea?

5) The Thyiades is supposed to be CR 6. However, her stats are way, way better than the CR 8 standard succubus: Dex 20 vs. Dex 17, Con 22 vs. Con 18, Wis 21 (!) vs. Wis 14, and an eye-watering 29 Cha. She has better AC and better saves than the standard succubus, and she can cast Charm Animal (DC 20) and Suggestion (DC 22) at will, plus a...

A few notes-

1> The spell is UP TO 5th level. It may be a trust in the GM to not put it above what the players can handle; it also allows them to make a unique succbi within the parties CR. It also allows for creatures that normally become all but useless at at mid to high levels to have a little more bite.
Lusts Sweet Sting is similar. You could get a lot more pay off as far as extra attacks with two-weapon fighting, and the flavor of the poison fits the demon's natural abilities. It could just as easily be a poison on a weapon she holds. The love ability would end the fight if she is facing off one on one with a foe, otherwise it is the same as if she used her at will charm monster ability..stronger actually, as it only effects humanoids.
2> You are right on this one, it snuck by. The bonus should be a flat enhancent bonus, and the total cost should be 20,600 gp. I do think the notes just did not get updated.
3>The lingerie is thinner than most cloth, treat it as silk clothing.
4>That is exactly the point of the Agitator. The save is low enough that most PC's and major NPC's should make the save, and be left to deal with the utter chaos left behind in the creatures wake. I personally would not put them on any PC summoning lists; they were created to be the focus of an adventure, not nukes in the hands of the PC's
5> The Thyiades is more a primal force of nature then a typical succubi, hence the greater scores. Her actual damage output solo is on the low side for her CR. She COULD use her 3/day primal gift like that, but in general it would be a massive waste, as opposed to using it on her minions. Remember that minions up the CR of the encounter; she should be part of an encounter for a higher level party in general, then "just" a CR 6. The minions can also be sent/encountered well away from the demon.
6> A puppeteer CAN reach such high levels, but again as a GM it needs to be tailored to your game and players. Nothing says she HAS to have a full set of minions, or even finds it to her advantage to want to, and that she does not keep them in an army around her. Her puppets would normally be dispersed, as assasins, spies, or simple townsfolk, allowing the players to whittle away her strength. In fact a puppetteer rewards perceptive players and smart roleplay, over brute force.

Most of these creatures are not intended for a "typical" encounter, as opposed to being creatively applied to higher levels then their CR would suggest, with their minions and slaves spread out through a game. If you max them out against a party that is their level or lower they will be deadly, but if they also allow higher level parties to encounter the "succubus flavor" at a point that they would laugh at a typical succubus.


You have to assume that intelligent and malevolent creatures are going to use the abilities you give them. If a puppeteer can control X number of minions, she's probably going to do that. Why would she not? More minions make her more powerful, for goodness' sake. If a feat can give a monster two spells of "up to fifth level", an intelligent monster is not going to use that feat to take Hold Portal and Sleep. And so on.

As written, a puppeteer doesn't really reward smart play. She rewards very high Will saves. Putting the whole minions thing aside, DC 24 Dominate at will is just off the hook for CR 8. A typical 8th level fighter or rogue has a Will save around +4 or +5. The party wizard may have +6 to +8 and the cleric somewhere around +10 to +12. The party rushes in... and the demoness opens the conversation with Mass Charm Monster, which you've given her 3x/day at DC 26. Everyone but the cleric fails that one 95% of the time. Now that everyone is friendly, they can sit down for tea and she can start picking them off with her gaze attack. If the cleric makes trouble she has a DC 29(!) Dominate Monster in her pocket, just for him. TPK, no minions required.

Seriously, these CRs are just crazy high. The CR for a Banshee's signature attack? DC 23 -- and a banshee is CR 13. For a CR 17 Marilith? DC 25. The CR 16 Belier Devil? 22 to 25. The normal succubus throws stuff between DC 21-23, and that's already very high for a creature of her CR. The only reason it's balanced is that (1) she's utterly pathetic in melee combat, and (2)her DC 23 Dominate is just once/day. But a creature that can throw DC 24 to 29 "save or suck" all day long is just not CR 8.

Rather than nitpick all these points one by one, some general observations.

This booklet is full of clever ideas, and I don't think I got cheated. I'm not complaining. I got $4.99 worth of stuff here. But I think it could have been better if (1) you'd edited it a bit more carefully, and (2) you'd paused and thought about how encounters with a succubus usually work.

A succubus is generally not a monster you "fight" in the sense of going toe-to-toe in melee. You could take away all her melee attacks and she'd still be nearly as dangerous. She fights indirectly, either through controlled minions, by turning party members, or by manipulating the party into deadly situations.

One way to play with this is to make a succubus who /is/ a combat monster. You did this and added some nice flavor too. So, that works. Another is to make a succubus who's super-optimized for controlling. You did that too, and that's a fine idea even if you set the DCs wrong.

But now let's think about how experienced players fight a succubus. That one is pretty simple: they cast Protection from Evil. It's a first level buff, already popular for its +2 deflection bonus, that gives complete protection against charm and mind-control effects. By sixth level it gets replaced with Magic Circle Against Evil, which is the mass version of the same spell. And that just shuts the poor succubus down! She can't use her mind control stuff on the PCs, and any of her minions that get within 30' of the good cleric get a new Will save at +4. Maddening.

So what are the countermoves? Well, you could give her Dispel Magic. That's a little mechanical, though (and also it's been badly nerfed in PF). Or you could give her some way to get at the PCs when their buffs are down. You provided one feat that suggests a really clever way to do this -- kudos. I like that feat; it's balanced while opening up some serious RPing opportunities.

Another way around is to improve the succubus' disguise abilities. (Disguise in the broad sense, not the skill.) Frex, one of my best succubus encounters came with a gal disguised as a bard. She actually had a couple of bard levels, and she cast Inspire Courage and Cure Light Wounds a couple of times. The PCs thought she was great and completely refused to believe she could be the BBEG, even as the evidence for it piled up...

Anyway. 4 of the 5 succubus variants here are just as vulnerable to the old Magic Circle. Even the Puppeteer, with her crazy high DCs, will bounce right off this. (Which doesn't really make things better. Which is more obnoxious, I kill you TPK!!! or I kill you unless you cast this one buff spell that renders me helpless oh dear?) I'd have liked to see some other clever ways to counter this very obvious and popular PC move.

Finally, two thoughts for future monster collections. One, for more intelligent and complex monsters like the succubus, it might be interesting to include a short discussion of possible roles. So, a succubus can be a boss; or she can be a behind-the-scenes string puller; or she can be a party member of an evil party, like Sabine in the Order of the Stick; or she can be a False Friend, like my bard; or she can be an Evil Counselor, an NPC who seems to be an ally/patron/information source but who is really something else entirely.

Two, consider doing something like the Archetypes for PCs and allowing monsters to swap out abilities: "You can have X, but you have to give up Y." For instance, I said Arcane Wings were overpowered as a feat. But I might allow a succubus to take them in return for -2 Cha (which lowers all her spell DCs and Cha-related skills by 1), or as a substitute for her Profane Gift.

Welp, back to work. Thanks for reading.

Doug M.


Just picked it up!

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