As it turns out, most of us here at Paizo think it'd be really cool to see a "Faiths of Corruption" book as well.
Some folks like playing evil PCs. I'd like to periodically support that play style. Unlike epic rules or psionics, the rules for playing evil characters already exist. There's no actual barrier to play characters like this, apart from the psychological, so it's not like we'd be producing a book that only a subset of the customer base would be able to understand.
Please do a book covering the evil faiths (and one for the neutrals, too, eventually). I know I'd get copies of all three. Hey, I'd like to knoew what I get if the join the faithful of Lamashtu.
Seriously -- these are books I want to get and will buy.
Okay, Colin just sent me his writeup of the paladin codes for this book (written in first-person perspective, mind you), and all I can say is....
Wow.
Wow wow wow.
These.
Are.
Awesome.
I would love the a Pathfinder Companion book stricly on Paladin Orders myself
I am delighted to report that the book has been chiseled from the walls of its subterranean cavern, and has further been delivered to the gentle, polishing hands of Mr. Reynolds.
I just wish they'd stop giving me full-body searches every time I leave the word mines.
I just wish they'd stop giving me full-body searches every time I leave the word mines.
Yeah, sure you do. That's how we know the word mines are intentional.
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As it turns out, most of us here at Paizo think it'd be really cool to see a "Faiths of Corruption" book as well.
Some folks like playing evil PCs. I'd like to periodically support that play style. Unlike epic rules or psionics, the rules for playing evil characters already exist. There's no actual barrier to play characters like this, apart from the psychological, so it's not like we'd be producing a book that only a subset of the customer base would be able to understand.
Please do a book covering the evil faiths (and one for the neutrals, too, eventually). I know I'd get copies of all three. Hey, I'd like to knoew what I get if the join the faithful of Lamashtu.
Seriously -- these are books I want to get and will buy.
Faiths of Balance (the Neutral one) is already listed for June
Okay, Colin just sent me his writeup of the paladin codes for this book (written in first-person perspective, mind you), and all I can say is....
Wow.
Wow wow wow.
These.
Are.
Awesome.
Sounds good, it will be nice to have these though I wonder what sources they draw on/were inspired by. The big problem with the codex for paladins in my experience is that most people see the codex as proof that paladins are lawful stupid and have the life expectancy of a Mite.
They're drawn on the philosophy of the deities and Colin's experience in writing engrossing dialogue and stories, such as the award-winning Planescape: Torment.
Ohh I am not doubting the skill and accomplishments of Colin not at all, it is far more that I was interesting if there were any literary, movie or similar sources to draw on to adapt the outlook of what a codex would contain and/or be inspired by.
I have fears but I'll leave them somewhere hidden until the finished product is my hands.
Ohh I am not doubting the skill and accomplishments of Colin not at all, it is far more that I was interesting if there were any literary, movie or similar sources to draw on to adapt the outlook of what a codex would contain and/or be inspired by.
I have fears but I'll leave them somewhere hidden until the finished product is my hands.
Well, perhaps Colin will weigh in next time he reads this thread.
In the meantime, I'll quote James Sutter, who just read the various paladin codes and says they are "awesome." :)
Not to be nitpicky but:
Faiths of Purity includes key information on
Didn't we already get this in Gods and Magic? And in various articles about gods in Adventure Paths? And in Campaign Setting?
Toadkiller, you should read the rest of the thread, you're not the first person to ask that question. :)
Well, now I feel silly. :D Read the last page of the thread, completely forgout about the exsitence of the first page. Thx Sean. :D
In the meantime, I'll quote James Sutter, who just read the various paladin codes and says they are "awesome." :)
Looking forward to the result :)
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In the meantime, I'll quote James Sutter, who just read the various paladin codes and says they are "awesome." :)
Kinda love that while a Paladin of Iomedae may be pretty standard 'Paladin' fare (all knightly virtues and whatnot), a Paladin of Erastil, Shelyn, Sarenrae, Torag or Abadar might have different areas of concern, reflected in their codes.
Seven good gods, seven neutral gods, six evil. Could a seventh evil faith sneak in there as well, say, the Old Cults? We've had some tantalizing Lovecraftian hints, but, other than Groetus, we don't really know what sort of things the 'Old Cultists' revere (or, propitiate, anyway).
I'd love something that would explore the cult of Groetus more.
Each book devotes some space to "minor" deities of the appropriate alignment or theme. For example, FOP talks about Milani, the Empyreal Lords, and so on. So Faiths of Balance will talk a little bit about Groetus (he's CN).
Ohh I am not doubting the skill and accomplishments of Colin not at all, it is far more that I was interesting if there were any literary, movie or similar sources to draw on to adapt the outlook of what a codex would contain and/or be inspired by.
I have fears but I'll leave them somewhere hidden until the finished product is my hands.
For the most part, I used the faith itself as the inspiration for the paladin codes. Someone who follows Erastil, a god of homespun wisdom and small communities, is going to have a significantly different outlook on what is good than someone who follows Iomedae, the crusader and caller-to-adventure. For each faith, I asked the Conan Question ("Conan! What is best in life?"), and extrapolated.
That said, I drew at least part of Iomedae's from the Marine Corps. I drew on Arabic history for Sarenrae. I drew Erastil's from my grandfather's hazy recollection of his pastoral boyhood, and what I imagined he would say about it filtered through his ideal conservative vision.
Like that.
Very Interesting, thanks for sharing.
And I suspect that a "Faiths of Corruption" type book would NOT be a poor seller, because folks love the evil, and more to the point, this would be one "Player's Companion" that GMs would, I suspect, pickup in DROVES if only for use with NPCs.+1
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I would be thrilled to see more information on my beloved Lamashtu.
And I will definitely be getting this tome along with "Faiths of Balance".
For the most part, I used the faith itself as the inspiration for the paladin codes. Someone who follows Erastil, a god of homespun wisdom and small communities, is going to have a significantly different outlook on what is good than someone who follows Iomedae, the crusader and caller-to-adventure. For each faith, I asked the Conan Question ("Conan! What is best in life?"), and extrapolated.
That said, I drew at least part of Iomedae's from the Marine Corps. I drew on Arabic history for Sarenrae. I drew Erastil's from my grandfather's hazy recollection of his pastoral boyhood, and what I imagined he would say about it filtered through his ideal conservative vision.
Like that.
Just me, but I'd see a paladin of Erastil as being like the prototypical small-town sheriff, one of Sarenrae as being the cinematic Saladin, and Torag as being, what, a somewhat-romanticized version of some of the better steelworkers my father labored alongside.
Those articles are the GM's perspective on the gods, I suspect. This is a Player Companion, so it'll be the player-focused material.
Wouldn't surprise me at all to see a 256 page hardback compilation of the articles after they get all 20 of them published, though.
Correct. This book is "What does this belonging to religion do for my character, even if I'm not a divine spellcaster?" rather than "here's the outlook of the deity, its church, and its relation to other deities."
Think of it more as a "here's why your character should join this church!" rather than "thousands of years ago, this god blah blah blah."
Paladin codes for specific deities is a good thing to talk about in this book! :)
This is not a rehash of Gods and Magic and the AP articles. While it'll draw on the same material, the focus is different. I've explicitly told the author that he's not to regurgitate the text from the other sources. You'll see the inspiration there--the section on Cayden Cailean will mention he was an orphan, but it'll talk about how being an orphan of the church affects your character background and outlook, your attitude toward the church, and so on.
Ok, maybe not the place to bring this up, but its things like this that are making me migrate over to Pathfinder (from 4th ed.) I love that this book (and apparently the series of books)are going to be for Players (as suggested, imagine that!) and I have seen the Developer and Contributor jump on to answer questions about the book. So really, nice guys. Thanks... :)
Not to complain overmuch, as I'm very much looking forward to this book, but ... haven't we seen that scene depicted a half dozen times already? Where's the Iomedae love? ;)
Not to complain overmuch, as I'm very much looking forward to this book, but ... haven't we seen that scene depicted a half dozen times already? Where's the Iomedae love? ;)
Not quite. We've seen Sarenrae striking down Rovagug (on the cover of Gods and Magic, reprinted in the Gamemastery Guide if I recall correctly).
Now we see Kyra, a cleric of Sarenrae striking down a big, bug like thing, likely a monstrous servant of the Rough Beast. It's supposed to show how the God's struggle must be taken up by their mortal servants.
Or something like that.
Creative Director
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Where's the Iomedae love? ;)In the alternate universe where the iconic cleric is a worshiper of Iomedae. You'll just have to deal with all the kick-butt clerics on book covers being kick-butt clerics of Sarenrae named Kyra.
Or, alternatively, on any cover that features Seelah. See the cover of "Rule of Fear" for an example.
I'd like to see non-divine spellcasting Iconics on books like Faiths of Purity with something that shows they have a connection to a deity(even if it's just a wooden holy symbol).
That's inside the book. But on the cover, we need to reinforce "this is a book about characters with faith, and obviously clerics fit that category...."
If you put Valeros on the cover, you'd look at it and go, "huh? He's a fighter."
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That's inside the book. But on the cover, we need to reinforce "this is a book about characters with faith, and obviously clerics fit that category...."
If you put Valeros on the cover, you'd look at it and go, "huh? He's a fighter."
Which suggests that Lini would be a logical choice to see on the cover of Faiths of Balance, since she's our Iconic neutral divine caster.
It does leave who is going to appear on the cover of Faiths of Corruption up in the air. So far, the divine Iconics; Kyra, Lini, Seelah, Harsk, Alahazra and Imrijka, are good or neutral, as far as I recall.
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Creative Director
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Well, where's the love for the Mightiest Deity of them all -- Asmodeus? On which covers has His clergy appear on, hmmm?
I know why Sarenrae gets all the publicity; it's because she's bald like Sean "Balddude" Reynolds!
Actually, Sarenrae is far from bald. She's got a LOT of hair—it's just made of fire is all.
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It does leave who is going to appear on the cover of Faiths of Corruption up in the air.
The messageboards are frequented by a priestess of Lamashtu and a stunningly handsome evangelist of Rovagug. I'm sure we could come to some agreement regarding the licensing of our images for a small donation to our respective churches.
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Actually, Sarenrae is far from bald. She's got a LOT of hair—it's just made of fire is all.Well, where's the love for the Mightiest Deity of them all -- Asmodeus? On which covers has His clergy appear on, hmmm?
I know why Sarenrae gets all the publicity; it's because she's bald like Sean "Balddude" Reynolds!
You dare to question me, Jacobs? Are you aware that I have maxed-out ranks in Knowledge (religion) and a whole pile of profane bonuses on top of that? If a Favored Son of Asmodeus says she's bald, then she *is* bald, right? Desperately begging for another nightly visit from my Imp Squad (TM), are you? ;P
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Creative Director
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Actually, Sarenrae is far from bald. She's got a LOT of hair—it's just made of fire is all.Well, where's the love for the Mightiest Deity of them all -- Asmodeus? On which covers has His clergy appear on, hmmm?
I know why Sarenrae gets all the publicity; it's because she's bald like Sean "Balddude" Reynolds!
You dare to question me, Jacobs? Are you aware that I have maxed-out ranks in Knowledge (religion) and a whole pile of profane bonuses on top of that? If a Favored Son of Asmodeus says she's bald, then she *is* bald, right? Desperately begging for another nightly visit from my Imp Squad (TM), are you? ;P
I'm just saying I've known Sarenrae for about 20 years longer than you.
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It does leave who is going to appear on the cover of Faiths of Corruption up in the air.Nualia. :)
I had to look that up, having never played that adventure.
The cleric of Urgathoa
A cleric of Asmodeus also seems like a logical choice, but I don't have Council of Thieves, which likely has a few prominent examples.
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I'm just saying I've known Sarenrae for about 20 years longer than you.Actually, Sarenrae is far from bald. She's got a LOT of hair—it's just made of fire is all.Well, where's the love for the Mightiest Deity of them all -- Asmodeus? On which covers has His clergy appear on, hmmm?
I know why Sarenrae gets all the publicity; it's because she's bald like Sean "Balddude" Reynolds!
You dare to question me, Jacobs? Are you aware that I have maxed-out ranks in Knowledge (religion) and a whole pile of profane bonuses on top of that? If a Favored Son of Asmodeus says she's bald, then she *is* bald, right? Desperately begging for another nightly visit from my Imp Squad (TM), are you? ;P
Oh, but am I not a dwarf, who has lived a century longer than you? And how many ranks do you have in Knowledge (religion), human? I care not about how many books you've published, or about your title; my copy of the Thrice-Blessed Asmodean Disciples says Sarenrae is bald, so she's bald. ;)
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It does leave who is going to appear on the cover of Faiths of Corruption up in the air.Nualia. :)I had to look that up, having never played that adventure.
The cleric of Urgathoa ** spoiler omitted ** from Seven Days to the Grace has a nice visual, and would make an interesting counterpoint to Kyra on Faiths of Purity. Having her locked in mortal combat with Shadowcount Sial and his kyton companion could be funky. Evil fighting evil.
A cleric of Asmodeus also seems like a logical choice, but I don't have Council of Thieves, which likely has a few prominent examples.
Maybe I could pose for the cover, hey? Er, I promise I'll keep my robes on and refrain myself from dancing! And last time doesn't count -- I was provoked! ;P
Nice new cover but they already sold me on having stuff(info,spells, traits,etc.) on Desna and Shelyn.
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I actually am kinda stoked by the notion of Faiths of Corruption because it's easy to see why someone would choose to follow Shelyn or Cayden Cailean or Erastil, but it's harder (for me, anyway) to get into the mindset of a follower of Lamashtu or Urgathoa or Zon-Kuthon.
Granted, the evil gods of Golarion are, at least, more sensible than many. Playing Everquest, there were entire societies devoted towards worshipping dieties of hate or fear, which seemed pretty ridiculous.
Pain, like Zon-Kuthon, at least makes a shred of sense, since the real world is full of self-mortifying / flagellent religious and ascetic practices, and they might be considered 'extreme' or 'freaky,' but usually aren't condemned as evil. Loviatar's 'no pain, no gain, flense away your weakness and become stronger through trial' credo in the Realms at least made that seem less than totally crazy. :)
Most of the good and neutral dieties seem kind of intuitive to me, so Faiths of Corruption kinda has it's work cut out for it, to find a way to make it seem *sensible* to follow the tenets of Rovagug.
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Creative Director
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A "Faiths of Corruption" book would be relatively experimental, in that books for evil characters are pretty rare. But I don't think it'd be a particularly poor seller—as mentioned above, there IS a lot of interest in the dark side of things. And even though most GMs won't allow evil PCs... ALL GMs would likely get a kick out of a book of new toys and tricks and powers for their NPCs...
A "Faiths of Corruption" book would be relatively experimental, in that books for evil characters are pretty rare. But I don't think it'd be a particularly poor seller—as mentioned above, there IS a lot of interest in the dark side of things. And even though most GMs won't allow evil PCs... ALL GMs would likely get a kick out of a book of new toys and tricks and powers for their NPCs...
Right.
One of the reasons why Libris Mortis and Book of Vile Darkness are two of my favorite 3.5e books - not because I ever let the players use that material, but because it'd gold for the GM.