The Genius Guide to Martial Archetypes (PFRPG) PDF

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The “fighting man” is the anchor of a huge collection of myth, legend, and fantasy fiction. While it is wizards and dragons that make fantasy… well… fantastic, most often the heroes of those tales are loyal knights, dashing swashbucklers, royal guards, kung fu masters, grim gladiators, and duelists armed with quick wits and quicker blades. The image of the brave warrior is universal, an icon of fantasy adventure from gritty swords-and-sorcery stories to the highest of high fantasy literature. And often these fighting heroes have techniques, styles, tools and talents that go far beyond what can be reasonably represented by Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse.

Of course, there is a limit to the number of options that can be presented in a single core rulebook, and players quickly crave more flexibility. Fantasy fiction is filled of daring whip-wielders in search of adventure, sage swordsmen who can run across water, prodigious paragons of physical power, and even wizards who use magic to augment their swords more often than they fling fireballs. Some of these characters can be built using the multiclassing rules and prestige classes, but such efforts often feel awkward and the patchwork of prerequisites and additional abilities may blatantly clash with the character’s intended back-story.

The Genius Guide to Martial Archetypes provides material designed to give fighting classes new techniques for running their foes through, or at least flashier things to do while making the effort. It does this through the use of archetype packages—a way to replace some of a base class’s standard abilities with new powers (in this case, powers tied to martial skill). An archetype package can present new kinds of combat options a character may learn (such as the Youxia), allow him to excel in the mastery of a single weapon (such as the Blacksnake), or just give him an extra edge in any fighting situation (such as the Physical Exemplar).

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3.30/5 (based on 3 ratings)

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Make any class a martial class!

4/5

I happen to be a big fan of this series of products. I really like the modularity of this system. I love the idea of being able to add a little martial prowess to any character in exchange for some of it's standard abilities.

Like others I thought the Harrier was a little clunky, and the spellhammer is a little underwhelming. I like all of the others.

I was one of those people who really liked the 3.0 prestige class the lasher. The idea of using a whip to grab stuff or to move around or other specialist things is really fun. Paizo introduced a little of this with the whip mastery feats in ultimate combat, but you dont get alot of choice. The blacksnake can make any character a whip specialist. And its worth the price of admission in my view.

I also especially like the youxia. It can add a little bit of monk flavor to any class. And that can be important. For instance if you are playing a campaign (or character concept) where armor doesnt make sense thematically, you can add the youxia to any class to offer non-magical (but supernatural) defensive options to replace that armor.

The weapon master and the physical exemplar are pretty generic, but solid. They are great for taking a class that might have a different focus and pushing it towards combat. If you wish your inquisitor or your ranger were a little bit more like the fighter, well have no fear, these two archetypes can push the class in that direction.

You can even have a build your own class kind of situation. Some of the classes have 2 suites of abilities that can be traded out (leaving a fairly bair bones class behind). You can then add 2 archetypes from this or other products in the line to more or less make your own class. Ever wanted a cross between a fighter and a monk? Take both packages out the cavalier and make him both a weapon champion and a youxia. Like the inquisitors skills but dont like tracking the fiddly judgements and spells? Trade out both their archetypes for more static sets of abiltis like the physical exemplar, blacksnake, and weapon champion.


Not bad per se, but somewhat bland compared to the others

2/5

This pdf is 14 pages long, 1 page SRD and credits, 2/3 of a page front cover, leaving 12 1/3 pages of content fort the martial archetypes, so let’s check them out, shall we?
The basic concept of archetypes is explained in the first 4 ½ pages, after which we delve into the martial archetypes.

The first archetype we’re introduced to is the Blacksnake, a whip specialist (who may via a sidebar be converted into a cloak-fighting specialist) who not only makes whips a viable choice for a weapon, but via the ability to deal lethal damage as well as a selection of 8 special whip talents, for an interesting specialist fighter for those of you rather into smart and tricky fighting.

The Harrier is an interesting idea per se – a fighter centered on mobility and smart usage of the terrain. While a good idea on paper, the execution of this rather complex archetype is rather clunky, depending on the tracking of raid tokens which the player and DM have to track. There should be a more elegant way to represent such a mechanic in rules.

Next up is the physical exemplar, a paragon of health and physical prowess gets attribute-bonuses and physical feats to reflect an above-average physical condition. While general and easy to implement, I consider this one to be rather bland and boring.

The Spellhammer gets the ability to convert spell-levels into additional, scaling levels of damage. Due to Archon, Vanguard and of course Magus I don’t really see the necessity for this particular archetype. It feels like a very rough and tumble spell-burn approach.

Weapon Champions devote themselves to a kind of weapon, gaining additional bonuses to e.g. CMDs, threat-ranges etc. Ok, but again, rather boring in execution.

The final archetype we get is the Youxia, a type of fighter who gains access to Ki-points and talents (13 of the former are provided) – while I did like the concept of the Youxia, I would have loved to see more talents to choose from or a different take, as it felt more like a PrC or a set of classes to me.

The pdf closes with archetype-packages for base-classes by SGG.

Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are top-notch, I didn’t notice any glitches. Layout adheres to the 3-column-standard and the full-color-artworks are fair. Unfortunately, the pdf offers no bookmarks, but at this length that’s still ok. All in all, this pdf left me underwhelmed, especially in direct contrast to the other installments of the series: While it provides easy to implement archetypes that may find places in almost any campaign, the archetypes didn’t manage to walk the tight line and rather fell on the side of being bland or mechanically clunky. While the blacksnake makes for an interesting take on the lasher, it’s not enough to warrant a recommendation of a file that lacks the elegant design of the other SGG-archetype-books. While the more generalist archetypes are ok, I feel that the spellhammer is superfluous at best and mechanically not too smart. In the end, the book is simply not a captivating or necessary resource and lacks the eureka-effect, the ingenious design, the elegance of the other installments. The Spellhammer’s mechanics didn’t feel balanced to me and, as I mentioned, rather superfluous. The general archetypes feel too general, the special ones rather narrow in focus or like PrCs and not archetypes.
Thus, my final verdict will be 2.5 stars, rounded down to 2.
Endzeitgeist out.


A solid collection or archetypes

4/5

The Genius Guide to: Martial Archetypes by Super Genius Games

This product is 14 pages long. It starts off with half a page of cover and a intro. Next page it moves onto explaining what archetypes are and how to use them, the next two page and a half is listing all the existing classes archetypes that can be swapped out for those in this book. (4 ½ pages)

Next it gets into the new archetypes. Not all of them are good picks for all classes. (7 ½ pages)

Blacksnake – Whip specialist (there is also a side bar with suggestions how to make this archetype fit with cloak fighting in place of a whip)

Harrier – Skirmish fighting style, hit and run tactics. They introduce a new token system. Raid tokens that can be earned by doing certain things and use to fuel their abilities. While it is a interesting concept I am not hip on the raid tokens, seems they could have made this work with out them. I just feel that the raid token system is one more thing the player and GM will need to track and I don't feel it adds enough. YMMV.

Physical Exemplar – Grants bonuses to fort/ref save, physical stats etc. Basically these are people that are the most fit athletes in the world. Think Olympic athletes.

Spellhammer – Trade spell slots for weapon bonus damage. 1D per spell level, die type gets bigger as they level up, up to a d12. So at high level trading a 9th level spell slot would add 9d12 in damage on a weapon attack. You decided if you want to expend the spell slot after the to hit roll is made.

Weapon Champion – Pick a weapon group (from the fighter weapon training group list). All weapons in that list gain the bonus from feats. Weapon focus taken for one of them effects them all. They earn more bonus with that weapon group as they level.

Youxia – Martial arts with a weapon. Gain access to ki powers and qualify for feats that require improved unarmed combat.

Next page list all the SGG classes from their own books and what archetype packages they can give up for those in this books. (1 page)

If finishes with a OGL.

Closing Thoughts. Like the last one I love the idea of the mechanic of this. I liked most of the archetypes given. I already touched on my problem with harrier and I am not so sure about Spellhammer, it seems fine. Just not sure it is worth it, maybe a ranger or paladin or the like. The artwork is fair, the production is top notch. I didn't notice any obvious errors or problems. At the price with what I have said I am giving this one a 4 star. I think 4 of the 6 are good choices, one is so so and one I am meh on.


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Scarab Sages

The Genius Guide to Martial Archetypes is now available!

Super Genius Games presents the next entry in its popular "Archetype" line of products, presenting alternate sets of class abilities. The Genius Guide to Martial Archetypes presents five new archetypes packages (the whip-wielding Blacksnake, hit-and-run Harrier, amazingly able Physical Exemplar, mystic smiting Spellhammer, and ki-focused Youxia) with new combat-oriented abilities.

It also presents the base archetype packages for every class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Core Rulebook, every class from each Genius Guide published to date (including the popular time thief and vanguard) and (for the first time) the classes from the Advanced Player's Guide.

Sovereign Court

Oooh!

Mr. Genius wrote:
It also presents the base archetype packages for every class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Core Rulebook, every class from each Genius Guide published to date (including the popular time thief and vanguard) and (for the first time) the classes from the Advanced Player's Guide.

I'm a bit confused by this bit. Are we getting archetypes for every class?


The Genius archtype guides work a little differently than archetypes from the APG.

Essentially the system assumes that every class has a set of powers you can remove without preventing the class from being useful. So you can remove domains from clerics, or some sneak attack and talents from rogues, and the class can still work in a group. They call those sets of powers achetype packages.

Once you remove the built-in archetype package of a class, you can repalce it with the new packages they present, gaining a bunch of new powers that are different, but just as useful as what you lost. So using Archer Archetyps as an example, you could play a sorcerer who didnt get a bloodline, but *did* get the Spellbow achetype which lets you use magic to fire arrows without a bow.

It's a neat system. Since every class has an archetype package, and they are all balanced against each other, any class can take any archetype (with a few limitations, kinda like feat prerequisites, but most archetype packages are open to any class). So a fighter, rogue, or
even a cleric could all take Hedge wizard (from Arcane Archetpes) and gain a little arcane spellpower in place of some of their normal class powers. (You can also swap the class' original packages, so you can play a cleric with a sorcerous bloodline, though that comes with some warnings).

The only drawback is you have to know the built-in archetype packages for any class you want to use the system with. Since Archer and Arcane Archetypes came out before the APG, you couldnt use the system with any of those classes unless they made "baseline" archetypes for them, so you knew what powers to *remove* when adding spellbow or hedge wizard or whatever archetype you wanted.

So I presume since this is the first archetype book since the APG came out, it includes the "original" archetype packages for all the APG classes. And then you can use any of the new archetypes for any (or nearly any) class. They *also* give archetypes for all the classes from their own line of books, so this works with every genius Guide out there.

Dark Archive

If it is like their archer archtypes then any class can take these options.

Edit: Beat by DG. Yeah what she said.

Scarab Sages

Thank you ladies, it's always nice to be so well represented!

As DM said, DG's description is pretty accurate. Of the new archetypes only one (Spellhammer) has any restrictions on what classes can use it, and it simply requires the class you add it to be able to cast spells.

That doesn't always mean every archetype is an ideal choice for every class. These are martial archetypes, and as you might expect most of them work best with classes designed to get into weapon-based combat. In fact, given that we already did a lot of ranged archetypes (in the Archer Archetypes book), I'd say these lean towards melee combatants. But my playtest has a sorcerer who took the Blacksnake archetype package, and made it work really well, so we leave it up to the players to decide what matches their character concepts.

As DG mentioned you CAN use the base archetype packages from each class as a new set of powers for OTHER classes, and it's an option we talked about at length in our first product in the line (Archer Archetypes). But that takes a GM comfortable with blurring the lines between classes. On the other hand, one of my games currently has a bard who replaced bardic performances with witch hexes and presents himself as a cult hunter, so it can lead to cool characters.

I made a point of talking about including the base packages for APG classes because it was mentioned as a request when Arcane Archetypes came out.


I am considering purchasing both the Archer and Martial Archetypes PDF's but before I do, I'd like to get an opinion on this in relationship to my current character.

Currently I have a Ranger, 4th level, that has the Archery Combat style, but is taking his main feats in martial activities, power attack, cleave etc. Would the archetypes described in these two books be a good fit for this character concept? He hasn't spent much time with the martial activities to this point as he has been leveraging true strike for ranged attacks and whittling away the enemy at range, and by the time they get close enough in, the rest of the party is working through decimating the
enemy and the ranger gets little cleanup for up close and personal.

Opinions, thoughts?

Thanks.


Sethvir wrote:
I am considering purchasing both the Archer and Martial Archetypes PDF's but before I do, I'd like to get an opinion on this in relationship to my current character.

I can only speak to archer Archtypes right now_ I havent picked up Martial yet.

First, the bad news. You'll need to give up with all your spellcasting and a couple of skill points per level *or* your favored terrain, enemy, and combat style. that's what you lose so you stay balanced when you gain the awesome new powers of an achrtype.

I recommend giving up spellcasting and the spell points. We have a ranger who gave those up to take the alchemical archer archetype, and the character is amazing!

Now, the good news. If what you want is to be great wiht a bow at range, archer archetypes is your book. If you dont want to fire cool achemical trick arrows (which are neat as heck but not for everyone), then you'll want either the Sharpshooter or tempest archetypes. sharpshooter lets you make really accurate attacks (though you get your biggest bonuses if you just make one attack a round, but it seems to stack with vital strike). tempest lets you pretend you are crow from hawk the Slayer, and become the gattling-gun of archers. You can not only fire your full round's worth of arrows as a standard action (very cool with Shot on the Run), you can eventually pincushion a foe so it counts as being flanked for a round, or do an area of covering fire that gives you ranged attacks of opportunity.

Either of these works rocking with a ranged-weapon ranger. They are balanced so you dont become the guy who overshadows everyone, but they also let you do interesting things no one else can.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Thanks for this. The new Archetypes look good.

And really thanks for the APG archetypes. A much faster addition than I'd been expecting for the quality. Although worryingly they're pretty close to what I'd come up with while waiting. I might actually know what I'm doing.

However, between all your archetypes and the Paizo ones in the APG, there are now over 7000 class options available. Yikes!! I've started an Excel spreadsheet just to keep track of them.

Just a question: The Armiger's archetype says what they lose (Bulwark is less effective) but what does someone taking the Archetype gain in terms of Bulwark? I'm assuming they get the same level of benefit, i.e. only granting partial cover to adjacent ally.

Scarab Sages

Paul Watson wrote:
Thanks for this. The new Archetypes look good.

You are most welcome, and thanks for the kind words!

Paul Watson wrote:
And really thanks for the APG archetypes. A much faster addition than I'd been expecting for the quality. Although worryingly they're pretty close to what I'd come up with while waiting. I might actually know what I'm doing.

Heheh. Most professional game designers start as gamers doing house rules while they wait for the official version of something they need. Goodness knows I did.

Paul Watson wrote:
However, between all your archetypes and the Paizo ones in the APG, there are now over 7000 class options available. Yikes!! I've started an Excel spreadsheet just to keep track of them.

I hadn't counted them up. :D And I still prefer this solution to 7000 unrelated prestige classes.

Paul Watson wrote:
Just a question: The Armiger's archetype says what they lose (Bulwark is less effective) but what does someone taking the Archetype gain in terms of Bulwark? I'm assuming they get the same level of benefit, i.e. only granting partial cover to adjacent ally.

First, let me say that the rules for using a base archetype package from one class to grant powers to another class are essentially still in beta. (I'm beginning to think I'll have a compiled all-archetypes book by the time I'm be done playtesting that idea.) That said, that's definitely how I'm handling it right now.

Sovereign Court

Sethvir wrote:

He hasn't spent much time with the martial activities to this point as he has been leveraging true strike for ranged attacks and whittling away the enemy at range, and by the time they get close enough in, the rest of the party is working through decimating the

enemy and the ranger gets little cleanup for up close and personal.

Opinions, thoughts?

How can a 4th level ranger 'leverage' (shudders at the use of leverage as an active verb) true strike?

It has a range of personal, meaning that only sorcerers and wizards can use it.
The cost of a ring would be prohibitive and a wand would suffer from UMD and wand/bow juggling.

More generally I would recommend sharpshooter (losing spells, unless you are the party skill monkey and/or healer) as the partial damage drop on a full action is made up for with the bonus to hit, and there's a neat 'robin hood' vibe to the combat manoeuvre stuff.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Sethvir wrote:

He hasn't spent much time with the martial activities to this point as he has been leveraging true strike for ranged attacks and whittling away the enemy at range, and by the time they get close enough in, the rest of the party is working through decimating the

enemy and the ranger gets little cleanup for up close and personal.

Opinions, thoughts?

How can a 4th level ranger 'leverage' (shudders at the use of leverage as an active verb) true strike?

It has a range of personal, meaning that only sorcerers and wizards can use it.
The cost of a ring would be prohibitive and a wand would suffer from UMD and wand/bow juggling.

More generally I would recommend sharpshooter (losing spells, unless you are the party skill monkey and/or healer) as the partial damage drop on a full action is made up for with the bonus to hit, and there's a neat 'robin hood' vibe to the combat manoeuvre stuff.

Just doing what the DM told me and what he has allowed and that would be a potion of true strike. Also a magic item that allows 5x/Day True strike in possession of said ranger.

Didn't mean to make you shudder. Usually my grammar is much better than that.

Sovereign Court

Sethvir wrote:

Just doing what the DM told me and what he has allowed and that would be a potion of true strike. Also a magic item that allows 5x/Day True strike in possession of said ranger.

Didn't mean to make you shudder. Usually my grammar is much better than that.

Potions of True Strike are prohibited:

PathfinderSRD wrote:
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Of course, your GM can houserule that away if he wants to.

The item is cool though, potentially lethal but the need to take a standard action to activate (so 1 attack every to rounds when using) and the high-ish cost makes it a fairly balanced item (I'm assuming ring, or perhaps Wondrous Item).

The leverage thing was mostly snark, sorry, it's fairly common usage now but I've never liked it (don't get me started on 'going forward')


DM decision about the True Strike. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth I always say. Maybe he'll change it "going forward". Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Wonderous Item for the True Strike. We're mostly on a boat, so takes the form of a sextant. And yes you are correct standard action to activate, so every other round. Even with that still manage to be pretty leathal at long ranges.

Sovereign Court

Sethvir wrote:

DM decision about the True Strike. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth I always say. Maybe he'll change it "going forward". Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Wonderous Item for the True Strike. We're mostly on a boat, so takes the form of a sextant. And yes you are correct standard action to activate, so every other round. Even with that still manage to be pretty leathal at long ranges.

Sextant is cool flavour, suits the spell really well.

Dark Archive

Reviewed and posted it at ENworld.

Scarab Sages

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Reviewed and posted it at ENworld.

Thanks for the review!

Regarding the raid token system in the harrier. When I wrote it, I knew it wouldn't be for everyone. It's actually one of the most playtested options, and some players love it to death, while others don't want to be bothered with it. It does reward resource management players more than others, and in a way no existing class does, so I decided it was worth it to push the envelope, even if not everyone loves it.

I know at least one group is now using the harrier with a simple "you get one raid token per round" rule, and it seems to work fine for them.

Dark Archive

Yeah it looked well written and balanced. I just didn't feel it added enough to justify more book keeping is all. I have not play tested it, I rarely can play test stuff I review. So I might change my mind after playing with it.

Dark Archive

Since you sent me a free copy from Drivethru I posted the review up over there as well now. :)

Scarab Sages

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Since you sent me a free copy from Drivethru I posted the review up over there as well now. :)

Many thanks.


Reviewed here and sent to GMS magazine. Cheers!

Scarab Sages

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Reviewed here and sent to GMS magazine. Cheers!

Thanks for the review!

I admit I got my hackles up a bit when you mentioned how you felt the magus helps make the spellhammer superfluous, because I wrote the spellhammer well before the magus was even announced. In retrospect, however, comparing an older product to everything currently available is an entirely fair basis for a review.

The line between iconic and easy to implement and bland is a narrow one. I admit the two things from this that see the most use in my own campaigns are the blacksnake and harrier. (Although I also feel playtesting has long proved the harrier mechanic works great, rewarding the player for a different play style than Pf normally encourages).

So while I clearly find the options easier to implement and more interesting than you seemed to consider them, I think the approach you took is perfectly reasonable.


I absolutely get that. Just as a word of warning: I'll be reviewing the compendium and several older pdfs like the vanguard-class soonish. I'll preface this kind of review with the fact that I am fully aware of them being unfair, something I probably should have done here, too.

I didn't complain about SGG-archetypes (who came first)vs. APG-archetypes, though, because I consider the systems complimentary. At least in my home-game they work that way. Thus I guess it evens out. ;)

Scarab Sages

Endzeitgeist wrote:
I absolutely get that. Just as a word of warning: I'll be reviewing the compendium and several older pdfs like the vanguard-class soonish. I'll preface this kind of review with the fact that I am fully aware of them being unfair, something I probably should have done here, too.

Maybe... but I don't think it's a necessary warning. As I said, your reviews are going out to people buying now, and those people have all the current choices. (Besides, I don't see having archon, magus, and vanguard as options to fill the "warrior/wizard" slot as any more needless than having sorcerer, wizard, and witch to all fill the :arcane spellcaster" slot).

Endzeitgeist wrote:
I didn't complain about SGG-archetypes (who came first)vs. APG-archetypes, though, because I consider the systems complimentary. At least in my home-game they work that way. Thus I guess it evens out. ;)

Thanks! I *did* decide I needed to address it when it became APG archetypes were here to stay, but I do think the two systems play well together. :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I use this product rather regularly, and despite designing dozens of characters with various archetypes, I just noticed something very interesting. By strict raw, the weapon champion archetype can provide a back door to dervish dance for weapons besides the scimitar.

The language of favored weapon would indicate any weapon specific feats would work with any weapon in the group of favorite weapons. The assumption here is weapon focus or weapon specialization, but Dervish dance and the scimitar would easily fit that language as well. In addition, your favored weapon group need not even be heavy blades (of which only a few are one handed to meet dervish dance's other requirements), since one weapon advantage is to add any one weapon to your favored weapons. So you could for instance take axes and at 2nd level take the weapon advantage to add scimitar to the weapon group, then at 3rd level take the dervish dance feat and it would in theory apply to all one handed axes and the scimitar.

The same could be done with any weapon group, so you could dervish dance with a bastard sword, a katana, a heavy mace, or any other one handed weapon.

I am not sure this is a bad thing, I just dont think such a back door was actually intended. It could easily be read as working with all sorts of normally specific feats, like say the net adept line of feats from ultimate combat, which would get kind of odd I think.


Youxia + Dervish Dance sound pretty wicked :)

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
I am not sure this is a bad thing, I just dont think such a back door was actually intended. It could easily be read as working with all sorts of normally specific feats, like say the net adept line of feats from ultimate combat, which would get kind of odd I think.

Up to the point someone is entangling people with a quarterstaff, I'm actually okay with all of those. :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
I am not sure this is a bad thing, I just dont think such a back door was actually intended. It could easily be read as working with all sorts of normally specific feats, like say the net adept line of feats from ultimate combat, which would get kind of odd I think.
Up to the point someone is entangling people with a quarterstaff, I'm actually okay with all of those. :)

I think I am in most cases as well, but for instance, I dont think i'd be ok with someone using a greatsword as a onehanded weapon along side a trident with 'Net and Trident'. So I think dms will have to take that as they come.

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
I think I am in most cases as well, but for instance, I dont think i'd be ok with someone using a greatsword as a onehanded weapon along side a trident with 'Net and Trident'. So I think dms will have to take that as they come.

Agreed, although I hope no one would actually try that.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My players would know better, but I have seen crazier thoughts on these boards. Its just one of the inevitable gaps in a set of rules as complex as the interaction between supplementary material and pfrpg. I honestly dont know how I would write a rule on what is ok and what isnt in these cases, its just a case of 'I know it when I see it.'

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
My players would know better, but I have seen crazier thoughts on these boards. Its just one of the inevitable gaps in a set of rules as complex as the interaction between supplementary material and pfrpg. I honestly dont know how I would write a rule on what is ok and what isnt in these cases, its just a case of 'I know it when I see it.'

Often that's all you can do. Consider:

Fireball clearly states "The fireball sets fire to combustibles," but there are no official rules for what are "combustibles." Does it set fire to adventurer's clothes? They are certainly in the area. Does it burn up dead bodies and unattended objects on them? Does a fireball destroy all the treasure in an area, since it can melt gold? Realistically, in-play it sets fire to those things the GM decides it should set fire to, largely based on what makes sense, and not much else.

One of the reasons tabletop RPGs can dare to offer options a computer game can't, is that it depends on the bets judgment of the players and GM. You want to make sure they aren't constantly making up rulings to cover huge gaping holes in the rules (otherwise, why bother to have rules), but it is okay to depend on them to use common sense for corner-cases.


The blacksnakes whip mastery feats. I'm assuming you need to meet the prerequisite feats to take them correct?

Sovereign Court

I'm really wondering, when do we get the genius guide to sneaky archetypes?


GeraintElberion wrote:
I'm really wondering, when do we get the genius guide to sneaky archetypes?

I agree, when is this aforementioned sneaky archetypes stuff coming out?

Scarab Sages

havoc xiii wrote:
The blacksnakes whip mastery feats. I'm assuming you need to meet the prerequisite feats to take them correct?

Yes, you must meet prerequisites.

I should have explicitly stated that.


The Vanguard archetype package says that it replaces the Vanguard Bonus Feat at level 19. Vanguards don't get a bonus feat at level 19 as far as I know. Should this replace the Bonus Feat gained at 10th level (and thus, all Bonus Feats) or not replace anything other than the other two bonus feats (4th and 16th)?

Also, the Armiger archetype package says it replaces armored DR at 5th level. I'm guessing this is meant to be Armored DR at 4th level as the Armiger does not get Armored DR at 5th level.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Vanguard has been updated since then. The three bonus feats and the abilities Spell Block, Spell Grapple, and Spell Sunder were all subsumed under the Spell Maneuvers ability. So the Vanguard archetype should replace all 6 Spell Maneuvers. (This confused me initially, until I noticed all of the above abilities as options under Spell Maneuvers).


ssims2 wrote:
The Vanguard has been updated since then. The three bonus feats and the abilities Spell Block, Spell Grapple, and Spell Sunder were all subsumed under the Spell Maneuvers ability. So the Vanguard archetype should replace all 6 Spell Maneuvers. (This confused me initially, until I noticed all of the above abilities as options under Spell Maneuvers).

Bleh, that's what I get for not checking my pdfs.


So, a question about the Youxia. Does the Hammer Blow talent apply to each strike in a series of iterative attacks, or is the extra d6 of damage only applied once to the entire full-attack (or single attack)?


Also, are there Archetype Packages for the Magus and Gunslinger base classes?

Scarab Sages

Caedwyr wrote:
So, a question about the Youxia. Does the Hammer Blow talent apply to each strike in a series of iterative attacks, or is the extra d6 of damage only applied once to the entire full-attack (or single attack)?

So the ability ready thusly: Hammer Blow (Ex): As a swift action, after a

successful attack roll with his wushu weapon, the youxia may spend one ki point to increase the damage of his attack by +1d6. The extra damage increases to +2d6 at 6th level, +3d6 at 11th level, and +4d6 at 16th level. The youxia may use this ability only once per round.

That reads as pretty clear to me. After a single attack roll successfully hit, you can spend a swift action to add dice of damage. Since it says you do it as a swift action, it says you do it after an attack hits, and you can only do it once per round, you can only use it for a single attack. the good news is, you don;t have to make that decision until after you hit, so you never "waste" the ki point.

Scarab Sages

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Caedwyr wrote:
Also, are there Archetype Packages for the Magus and Gunslinger base classes?

Not as yet. These products came out before those classes existed. I have packages in playtesting for an update, but there are some balance issues I'm working to fix before I make them official.

Heck, the first of these products came out before Paizo added archetypes to the official rules! If I had known they were going to use that term, I'd have picked something else for the can-be-applied-to-nearly-any-class power swap packages in these books.

Even now, I may switch to calling them Player Templates, or something similar, in the eventually updates.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
Also, are there Archetype Packages for the Magus and Gunslinger base classes?

Not as yet. These products came out before those classes existed. I have packages in playtesting for an update, but there are some balance issues I'm working to fix before I make them official.

Heck, the first of these products came out before Paizo added archetypes to the official rules! If I had known they were going to use that term, I'd have picked something else for the can-be-applied-to-nearly-any-class power swap packages in these books.

Even now, I may switch to calling them Player Templates, or something similar, in the eventually updates.

Man, any chance maybe getting an idea of what your thinking for the Magus archtype(s)? I'm making one for a home campaign more than likely, but I could think of an archtype I wouldn't mind being able to add if I wasn't having to give up a couple specific things.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Krigare wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
Also, are there Archetype Packages for the Magus and Gunslinger base classes?

Not as yet. These products came out before those classes existed. I have packages in playtesting for an update, but there are some balance issues I'm working to fix before I make them official.

Heck, the first of these products came out before Paizo added archetypes to the official rules! If I had known they were going to use that term, I'd have picked something else for the can-be-applied-to-nearly-any-class power swap packages in these books.

Even now, I may switch to calling them Player Templates, or something similar, in the eventually updates.

Man, any chance maybe getting an idea of what your thinking for the Magus archtype(s)? I'm making one for a home campaign more than likely, but I could think of an archtype I wouldn't mind being able to add if I wasn't having to give up a couple specific things.

Magus will be touch to create a package for, its abilities REALLY work together. Unlike the other 6level casters you cant take out their spellcasting for instance, because that invalidates their primary class features.

I'd say arcane pool points + arcana would be a good package to remove for an archetype, but I that is just off the top of my head.

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
Krigare wrote:


Man, any chance maybe getting an idea of what your thinking for the Magus archtype(s)? I'm making one for a home campaign more than likely, but I could think of an archtype I wouldn't mind being able to add if I wasn't having to give up a couple specific things.

Magus will be touch to create a package for, its abilities REALLY work together. Unlike the other 6level casters you cant take out their spellcasting for instance, because that invalidates their primary class features.

I'd say arcane pool points + arcana would be a good package to remove for an archetype, but I that is just off the top of my head.

That's very likely to be one of the options, but wow has the balance been tricky to get right.

Another possibility it that the magus will give up "x" spell slots per level, but no value for "x" has worked perfectly yet.

I suspect it's going to be the very toughest of all Pf classes to implement my universal archetype system with.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
I suspect it's going to be the very toughest of all Pf classes to implement my universal archetype system with.

I have faith you can figure it out.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


That's very likely to be one of the options, but wow has the balance been tricky to get right.

Another possibility it that the magus will give up "x" spell slots per level, but no value for "x" has worked perfectly yet.

I suspect it's going to be the very toughest of all Pf classes to implement my universal archetype system with.

I've got faith you can figure it out, but I can understand why its so tough. Of all the PF classes its the one that (to me anyway) has the smoothest flow and most inter-connected class abilities of any class.

For homebrew stuff I work on, it has been my defacto benchmark for alot of areas.

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Furt wrote:
Really nice work. Love the flexibility these extra options can provide.

Thanks!

Furt wrote:

Two questions though about the Augmenter Summoner package - doesn't taking away the summoners spells make it impossible to heal his/her eidolon?

(Note: I realize that other characters can heal the eidolon, I'm only talking about the summoner's abilities to heal it)

Yes, the summoner ends up being dependent on other classes to heal his eidolon. In playtest that didn't end up being crippling. It is a "major drawback," but a smart summoner chooses an archetype that makes the price worth it.

Also, UMD is a class skill for summoners, and wands of cure light wounds are a cheap and effective way to heal an eidolon between fights.

Furt wrote:
It seems like having an eidolon that's at max 1/2 HP until fast healing is available (LV.11) is a huge disadvantage. Was that intentional?

It was looked at, and we found it to be acceptable. Part of the issue is that summoners and eidolons already sit near the top of the class power curve, so giving a summoner new options gets problematic fast. Take the eidolon away, and its not a summoner anymore. Take the summon monster ability away, and you barely dent the classes' power curve. Taking its spells proved the best solution during playtest.


Hello, I'd like to comment and ask questions about the Blacksnake archetype (as presented on d20pfsrd.com)

Firstly, I think it's a very interesting archetype. It might mesh quite well with Pain Taster prestige class, too. However, I think it strange to use it almost as it is to create the Cloakfighter archetype (besides the fact that a cloak doesn't have weapon statistics in and of itself).

Now, my questions:
1) If my character multiclasses and takes this archetype for several classes, do these levels stack (example, does a Ranger/Blacksnake 1 and Fighter/Blacksnake 1 give access to 1 Lash Talent) ?
2) The Snap talent scales with levels. Are those Blacksnake levels or character levels ?
3) Since the abilities seem the same, would it be possible to indicate that some talents (or the archetype itself) can act as virtual replacement for the Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery feats ?
4) Is this archetype fixed or would you like some input ? I'd like to see more whip-related feats in the Whip Mastery talent list (most notably the Whip Mastery and Serpent's Lash feat trees), and/or some talent to be able to use the whip for other combat maneuvers (like Drag, Reposition, and Grapple).

Thanks

Scarab Sages Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Louis IX wrote:

Hello, I'd like to comment and ask questions about the Blacksnake archetype (as presented on d20pfsrd.com)

Firstly, I think it's a very interesting archetype.

Glad you like it!

Louis IX wrote:
However, I think it strange to use it almost as it is to create the Cloakfighter archetype (besides the fact that a cloak doesn't have weapon statistics in and of itself).

That's covered by the Improved Cloak Proficiency in the actual PDF. I presume that's on d20pfsrd.com somewhere. :)

Louis IX wrote:

Now, my questions:

1) If my character multiclasses and takes this archetype for several classes, do these levels stack (example, does a Ranger/Blacksnake 1 and Fighter/Blacksnake 1 give access to 1 Lash Talent) ?

RAW doesn't cover this. I think it's reasonable, since you give up the innate archetypes built into both the classes you multiclass in, but it would totally be a GM call.

Louis IX wrote:
2) The Snap talent scales with levels. Are those Blacksnake levels or character levels ?

Anytime a class feature scales with level, it's always class level. Since archetypes are alternate class features, this rule applies.

Louis IX wrote:
3) Since the abilities seem the same, would it be possible to indicate that some talents (or the archetype itself) can act as virtual replacement for the Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery feats ?

The Blacksnake predates the book those feats came out in by a considerable amount. We may address that in a revision, but until then it's the land of GM discretion.

Louis IX wrote:
4) Is this archetype fixed or would you like some input ? I'd like to see more whip-related feats in the Whip Mastery talent list (most notably the Whip Mastery and Serpent's Lash feat trees), and/or some talent to be able to use the whip for other combat maneuvers (like Drag, Reposition, and Grapple).

Again, anything that extensive would have to wait for a full revision. Anyone who bought the Martial Archetypes pdf would get the revised version as soon as it came out. I'm not sure how long it would take for someone to decide to put it on d20pfsrd.com, but I know there's always a courtesy delay of at least 30 days.

Thanks


Hello again :-) and thank you for the answers

After juggling with the Godling, I'm back with more questions for the Blacksnake... well, at least one: the Improved Whip Proficiency, does it give proficiency with "the" whip, or all kinds of whips?

I'm thinking of a character concept where one would wield two scorpion whips. Would the archetype be enough to gain proficiency with them?

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