Pathfinder Adventure Path #35: War of the River Kings (Kingmaker 5 of 6) (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Adventure Path #35: War of the River Kings (Kingmaker 5 of 6) (PFRPG)
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Chapter 5: "War of the River Kings"
by Jason Nelson

Can two kings truly trust one another? King Irovetti, ruler of Pitax and potential rival to the leaders of the eastern Stolen Lands, opens his gates and hospitality to the lords of that realm. Within his city of shallow indulgences and crude decadence, he hosts a tournament ostensibly meant to foster friendship and peace, but fraught with dangers all its own. Is the King of Pitax’s good will sincere, or does he harbor a more sinister goal? And are the PCs fated to gain an opponent who commands not only a nation, but allies from a deadly other realm?

    This volume of Pathfinder Adventure Path includes:
  • “War of the River Kings,” a Pathfinder RPG adventure for 12th-level characters, by Jason Nelson.
  • A tour of the hollow wonders and grim shadows of the oppressed city of Pitax, by Mike Ferguson.
  • Merciless insights into the iron-shod doctrine of Gorum, god of battle, by Sean K Reynolds.
  • Pathfinder Ollix Kaddar’s adventures in the gladiator pits of Tymon in the Pathfinder’s Journal, by Steven E. Schend.
  • Four new monsters, by Julian Neale and Sean K Reynolds.

Pathfinder Adventure Path is Paizo Publishing's monthly 96-page, perfect-bound, full-color softcover book printed on high-quality paper. It contains an in-depth Adventure Path scenario, stats for about a half-dozen new monsters, and several support articles meant to give Game Masters additional material to expand their campaign. Pathfinder Adventure Path volumes use the Open Game License and work with both the Pathfinder RPG and the standard 3.5 fantasy RPG rules set.

ISBN–13: 978-1-60125-252-4

The map on page 33 was not printed correctly. The corrected map can be found this blog post.

"War for the River Kings" is sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The rules for running this Adventure Path and Chronicle sheet are available as a free download (606 kb zip/PDF).

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
Archives of Nethys

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscription.

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Great fun with lots of different play styles

5/5

This module has a little for everybody, I think it's very complete in that it allows for different styles of players to thrive. The main point of this adventure is that a neighboring kingdom's monarch becomes their enemy. King Irovetti begins hostilities against the PCs' country apparently with the idea of starting an invasion. The action revolves around countering the attacks from this enemy and eventually defeating him.

An awesome adventure like there are few. Exploration, dungeon-crawling, skill contests, social interaction and mass combat. I don't think there is a player that won't be able to find something to their liking here.

The main feature of this module is that the players set the pace most of the time. There is a definite plot here but it's up to the players to choose how and when to advance things. I believe this is one of the most complete modules ever put out by Paizo. Brilliant work by Jason Nelson. Bravo.

My rating: 5 stars. Great plot and good execution. I don't think any PC will be bored playing this one.

Check my whole review here


A Solid Penultimate Arc

4/5

I highly suggest reading all the adventures and finding ways to weave the plot and unify any AP. This AP in particular really needs some extra GM work along the way. If you want a very player driven sandbox campaign this AP is great. The nature of it also requires a lot of work from the GM but can be incredibly rewarding. So far it's been a great ride and the only reason that I am giving this a four star review is because the mass combat rules are terribly abstract and usually result in multiple opposed rolls of attrition.


Wow, I wish we hadn't slaughtered all those Kobolds, Centaurs and Boggards now..

4/5

War of the River Kings does one of my favorite things ever; it punishes hack and slash killer gamers with natural consequences. No moral judgement, just, you don't have as big an army as you could have. Check out my full review: War of the River Kings


Not as good as book 3 but better than 1, 2, and 4

4/5

My reviews use bullet points, just how I roll.

The Good: -Main villain while a repetition can be compelling storyline wise.
-Numerian artifacts, sexy.
-Some fun plot twists and bring on big battles and warfare!
-Like kingdom building the mass combat system is flawed but workable.

The Bad: -You need to restat the main villain to make his stats match how awesome his story is.

The Ugly: -Players can throw a serious curve ball int he adventure design, this is where sandbox can be an issue
-DM labor intensive, though kingdom building was allot of work, add armies.

Overall: I know when I run this it will be more than a 3 star experience but again I have to base it off of how its written. IF you run this AP I highly encourage you to be a part of the forum community that if anything can raise all my ratings by a full star. The forum support for this AP is epic...


Mediocre, repetitive story and poor system design

2/5

Overall I have enjoyed my time as a player in the Kingmaker AP. There have been a few issues, but the total arc has been good. This book didn't spoil my overall enjoyment of Kingmaker, but it was definitely the worst of the bunch (so far).

This book brings the mass-combat rules (started in the previous book) to the forefront. Unfortunately, mass combat is not very well designed and not very fun. First, it essentially devolves into the DM and a single player rolling. Second, in our campaign it didn't scale very well with how far we'd advanced our own kingdom. Third, there aren't any real strategy options that have meaningful effect. The entire system is too middle-of-the-road. I would have preferred a system that gave results based on individual PC combats, or, barring that, an actually cool (all players involved) wargame.

The second problem with this book is the plot. It's basically a repeat of the previous plot-line in terms of the end-goal. Whereas every book up until now has been pretty dynamic, with different NPC end-bosses and goals, this is almost a total copy. There's a bad ruler and you have to dig him out of an entrenched city. The ruler is even bad in the same way. It was a big let down.


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Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Kvantum wrote:
Two more words: "it's shipped." :D

So they're shipping, eh?

(starts the "one week after the first subscriptions ship" counter)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

kenmckinney wrote:

A jabberwock AND a vorpal sword? Well done!!!

Ken

Snicker-snack!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Just getting my first look at the book right now; very good stuff. As always, pretty darn awesome.

Noticed a bug, though - the Pitax Heralds only have their first level number of rounds of Bardic Performance. They are listed as having 7 rounds/day, and should have 17.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A question regarding the mass combat rules. The only reference I find for Consumption is that it is equal to half the army's CR. However, all of the monstrous armies have Consumption much higher than this. While this seems balanced, I can't figure out what determines the higher Consumption. What am I missing?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

MaxAstro wrote:
A question regarding the mass combat rules. The only reference I find for Consumption is that it is equal to half the army's CR. However, all of the monstrous armies have Consumption much higher than this. While this seems balanced, I can't figure out what determines the higher Consumption. What am I missing?

Consumption is increased by equipment that an army has, such as mounts, magic or masterwork weapons, or the like. Most of the prebuilt armies have some form of extra equipment.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Consumption is increased by equipment that an army has, such as mounts, magic or masterwork weapons, or the like. Most of the prebuilt armies have some form of extra equipment.

Ah, okay, so that equipment has a consumption cost, not just a one-time buy cost. That makes sense.

Another thing: Under critical hits in mass combat it says a natural 20 always deals damage, even if your OM is less than the other army's DV. However, since damage is OM - DM, I am curious how much damage a critical is supposed to deal?

Personally I am just considering having criticals treat the opponent's DV as 0, but that could result in some very short fights. xD

Paizo Employee Creative Director

MaxAstro wrote:

Another thing: Under critical hits in mass combat it says a natural 20 always deals damage, even if your OM is less than the other army's DV. However, since damage is OM - DM, I am curious how much damage a critical is supposed to deal?

Personally I am just considering having criticals treat the opponent's DV as 0, but that could result in some very short fights. xD

I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.


James Jacobs wrote:
I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.

Great! ... Could you provide a hotlink to it?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Josh Erickson 108 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I've covered this in the stickied "Mass Combat" thread in this forum. The short answer is that if you hit another army with a natural 20, you do a minimum of 1 point of damage even if your result isn't above the target's DV.
Great! ... Could you provide a hotlink to it?

Here ya go!


For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

Spoiler:
If the PCs attend the tournament, it will hurt them. Luckily they won´t go, because at that point of the campaign they´ll know what a trickster Irovetti is. And if they attend, they´ll get nothing out of it. Archery contests and timbersports are fine in a level one module, but my players will probably expect more when they are rulers of a kingdom.

The Abbey is another red herring. A pointless search for a "super-weapon" that never existed. They´ll get some information about Briar and Nyrissa, sure, but I bet they´ll get much more of it in Kingmaker 6.

Most locales on the hex map are rather uninspiring. It´s apparent that these are the byproducts in the adventure. The dragon´s lair is atmospheric, but it´s empty (luckily at this point).

The palace is - for me - compared to such marvels like Scarwall or Clydewell Keep a little boring. Bards are the super villains, hmm... The best part is the dungeon.

Sorry about my critique, Jason. It´s just what I think at the moment.

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

Sorry about my critique, Jason. It´s just what I think at the moment.

Hey, everybody likes what they like. But, with regard to your thoughts...

Spoiler:

Stephan wrote:
If the PCs attend the tournament, it will hurt them.

Not sure in what way the PCs will be hurt by attending.

Stephan wrote:
Luckily they won´t go, because at that point of the campaign they´ll know what a trickster Irovetti is.

Also not sure they have any insights prior to this in the campaign about Irovetti being a bad guy. We, the DMs, know that he's in bed with Drelev and his gang from the previous mod, but there's nothing that I recall directly connecting him to them.

Stephan wrote:
And if they attend, they´ll get nothing out of it. Archery contests and timbersports are fine in a level one module, but my players will probably expect more when they are rulers of a kingdom.

Nobody wants a rod of lordly might? It's worth a lot of dough even if you don't wanna keep it. There's also the "something fun and different" angle, but if you don't think your players would enjoy it then you'd know that better than me.

At any rate, there was more to the tournament, but the chapter was... rather too long, and some of the events rather too high-magic for the intended feel of Kingmaker. You might prefer for higher-level characters to have more exotic challenges, see below.

There was also a system of earning "Renown" at the tournament by doing a variety of things to build up the fame of your kingdom, and by the end of it you could earn a small army, the respect of the other River Kings, and possibly even some free territory. Alas, a bit too complex as it all turned out.

If you are interested in seeing more, feel free to email me at tjadenjason (at) gmail (dot) com.

Stephan wrote:
The Abbey is another red herring. A pointless search for a "super-weapon" that never existed. They´ll get some information about Briar and Nyrissa, sure, but I bet they´ll get much more of it in Kingmaker 6.

That's the supposed reason they go there; really, it's Irovetti's trap. It's less "red herring" than "poisoned bait" - there's nothing to find because they're only led there as a pretext to try and kill them.

Stephan wrote:
Most locales on the hex map are rather uninspiring. It´s apparent that these are the byproducts in the adventure. The dragon´s lair is atmospheric, but it´s empty (luckily at this point).

The map locations are a bit odd because the territory overlaps with the territory covered in #6, which means you have a lot of locations that are present on the map... but don't have any detail attached until the next adventure. Whether you like the wilderness better then, we'll see.

Stephan wrote:
The palace is - for me - compared to such marvels like Scarwall or Clydewell Keep a little boring. Bards are the super villains, hmm... The best part is the dungeon.

Tongue only partially in cheek, what's the matter with bards as super-villains? A bit of a refreshing change from the parade of Clr/Sor/Wiz main villains, perhaps. In any case, if you'd prefer to run the castle as "lived in" - with servants and lots of mooks running around, let me know.


I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!

Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Elfgasm wrote:
I liked the adventure quite a bit...

I liked it, too. Jason and I worked quite a bit on making sure the handoff from "Blood for Blood" would work well with "War of the River Kings" and I thought we had some good synergy. The "tone" of Kingmaker takes a significant turn from a storytelling standpoint in chapter 4. And chapter 5 turns up the heat in a way that the stage is set for the final villain to be revealed. So, together, these two adventures represent that point in the plot where things come to a crest and now the heroes finally know what they need to do to secure the safety of their kingdom.

Elfgasm wrote:
What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!....Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

I was very lucky in that early on in the design process Wes accidentally forwarded the entire series of hex maps to me that they'd sketched out for regions 1-4. I think he meant to send me a different file, but it actually helped a lot for me to get a sense of where everything was located in relation to everything else. I was able to recognize the heroes were settling into region #2. And chapters 1-2 would take place there. Then, chapter 3 ("The Varnhold Vanishing") would lie to the "east" of their kingdom (or, at least to the right of their initial map of the Stolen Lands). Similarly, in chapter 4 ("Blood for Blood"), I knew that adventure would lie to the "west" of their kingdom (or, to the left of their initial map). And Jason's adventure, chapter 5 ("War of the River Kings") would lie further "west" towards Pitax.

So, if you lay out the individual maps side-by-side from the adventures, it goes something like this:

Region 4 - Region 3 - Region 2 - Region 1

Adventures 1 and 2 take place in Region 2. Adventure 3 takes place in Region 1. Adventure 4 takes place in Region 3. And adventure 5 (and 6?) takes place in Region 4.

Hope that helps,
--Neil

P.S. For my own satisfaction, I actually took all four of the original hex maps and strung them together into a single .JPG file so I could reference it while writing. You can pretty much do the same with the maps in each of the adventures.


Elfgasm wrote:
I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

So did I. Thank you.


Elfgasm wrote:
I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

So did I. Thank you.

Sovereign Court

Elfgasm wrote:

I liked the adventure quite a bit, and I've sent you an email. Thanks for the work.

What I'm having trouble with here is more of an "entire adventure path" problem. I'm having the greatest difficulty I've ever had with spatial understanding...I don't get where everything is in relativity to other locations!

Is there a large map somewhere that shows me things like where War of the River Kings hex map is as connected to the hex map from #4, #3, and the one from #2 and #1?

this?

On a separate note: Am I the only one who got a butchered map of Whiterose Abbey on page 33?

The bottom half of the map is much darker (hard to see) and the two maps have been switched around in this bottom half. To add to the confusion, the location codes are in the correct place, so they don't match the transposed images.

'Tis very confusing.


Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

Spoiler:
The reason hex crawling is unsatisfying is their character level. It's not going to be a major appeal at this level. So, we have the tourney to introduce regional players and their movers and shakers. We have a war, which the hex crawling occurs in context of. We have an assassination attempt. We have foreshadowing of the final villain. It all makes sense.


Is it me, or does the map of the Whiterose Abbey on page 33 look messed up? I can't really make heads or tails of it. If this has been fudged, is it possible to get an corrected picture?

DogBone


roguerouge wrote:
Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

** spoiler omitted **

You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

DogBone wrote:

Is it me, or does the map of the Whiterose Abbey on page 33 look messed up? I can't really make heads or tails of it. If this has been fudged, is it possible to get an corrected picture?

DogBone

If you scroll up to the top of this thread, in the product description, right below the ISBN, there is a link to a corrected map for that page.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Stephan wrote:
roguerouge wrote:
Stephan wrote:

For me this adventure was some kind of a let-down.

** spoiler omitted **

The mass combat rules are superb, simple and easy. I´m looking forward to some of the battles.

I don't find this a compelling analysis at all, if there are any wavering purchasers reading this thread. I've expressed my dismay with paizo APs before, but I've got no complaints with this one whatsoever. If they can rock the sixth installment, it's the equal of their best AP to date: Crimson Throne.

** spoiler omitted **

You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

I quite agree - good, bad, or in between, it's all part of the discussion. I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.


Jason Nelson wrote:
I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

That´s right, you´ll never know for sure before you´ve played the adventure.

Quote:
As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.

I think I was a little unfair regarding the tournament. The setting is very cool, very atmospheric.

Spoiler:
But I still doubt my players will attend it. I read the last paragraph of "Blood for Blood" again. It says about Irovetti:

Quote:
While there’s no hard evidence to suggest he encouraged Baron Drelev to attack the PCs, the political situation should certainly suggest it.

But we´ll see if my players are as smart as I think. ;)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Stephan:

Spoiler:

Stephan wrote:
But I still doubt my players will attend it. I read the last paragraph of "Blood for Blood" again. It says about Irovetti: "While there’s no hard evidence to suggest he encouraged Baron Drelev to attack the PCs, the political situation should certainly suggest it."

I think you can still get your players to bite. After all, suspicion of Irovetti's involvement is quite different from proving it. There are no Pitax wardens making an appearance in "Blood for Blood"...just accusations and insinuations. And, even if your players believe Irovetti was behind the attack on Drelev, he may have plausible explanations for why that still might lure them to his tournament. For instance:

1) If questioned, have him say he only acted to defend his own lands from the encroachment of Drelev's depredations. It should be quite clear that Lord Drelev was an evil man and outright liar in his own right...as well as his wife, Baroness Pavetta. In a way, he actually helped the PCs identify a bad seed(i.e., Lord Drelev) in the kingdom neighboring theirs and his own.

2) Have him accuse the Tiger Lord barbarians (who have long plagued his kingdom) of acting on their own and then trying to shift blame to Irovetti for what transpired at Fort Drelev.

3) Have him acknowledge some limited role in the events at Fort Drelev, but then offer to make amends. He could profess that he has no real interests in conquering the Stolen Lands and that's why he left no men behind at Fort Drelev. He merely sought to blunt Lord Drelev's aggression.

4) Even if the evidence fully supports Irovetti's direct involvement and they distrust him, sometimes the best way to oppose such an arrogant dictator is to take him up on his offer and then use the invitation to the tournament to turn the tables on him. After all, these guys are still adventurers, right? They don't know Irovetti is ready to wage all-out war. He left no forces behind in the Drelev Demesne. They've seen no further aggression out of him. Maybe there's a chance he's attempting a different ploy involving political intrigue now rather than blunt force?

I think some of those approaches should still be enough to keep your PCs on the right track.


Just my two-cents,
--Neil

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Stephan wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
I think there are answers to your questions, and hopefully some of those answers might increase your enjoyment level, or once you actually it the play-through of the adventure you'll find it turns out to be more enjoyable than you're expecting.

That´s right, you´ll never know for sure before you´ve played the adventure.

Quote:
As for the tournament events, I'll say that I ran that section of the adventure as a PaizoCon event and the players had a blast both participating in and (in-character) betting on the events. A con game isn't the same as an ongoing campaign, of course, but still it was qutie a fun event.
I think I was a little unfair regarding the tournament. The setting is very cool, very atmospheric.

Thanks. One thing as far as the gameplay of the tournament, which I think is still there in the text, is this:

Go ahead and play out the events for fun. If your players' characters aren't necessarily good matches for the events, have them take on the roles of some of the sample NPCs. This way they aren't stuck watching on the sidelines but can take a little one-off character and run with it. Add a few personality quirks from the Gamemastery Guide (or, Heaven forbid, your own creativity) to make the various competitors distinct.

Heck, offer a free bag of M&M's to the player who notches the most victories, or get a sack of chocolate coins at the toy store and hand them out to winners. Even a small real-life trinket or amusement can be a great inducement to players to dive in and go whole hog. A little bit of staging can go a long way here.

There is also a map pack for tournaments which could come in very handy (one of them quite serendipitously showed up in my PaizoCon swag bag!), which has a jousting list, archery range, and some other handy little pieces. The "Arena" flip mat could also come in handy for laying out some of your events.

Stephan wrote:
But we´ll see if my players are as smart as I think. ;)

As for your spoilered note, Neil lays it out excellently above. Yes, they have SOME reason to think that perhaps he's not entirely on the up and up, but remember this:

You're in the River Kingdoms.

EVERYBODY they meet is likely to have some kind of agenda, and every ruler is likely to be at least a little bit squirrely, sleazy, sneaky, skullduggerous, etc. So he's a little suspicious. They should expect nothing less from anyone able to control one of the RK's.

He's also persuasive and has plenty of plausible excuses, and more to the point it's nothing more than a notion, a suspicion. Even if they think there's something to it, how better to find out if there's a real threat than to take up the invitation and go check it out first hand? Get an up close look at a potential rival where there are lots of other people around and he wouldn't try anything... openly... :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Jason Nelson wrote:

The map locations are a bit odd because the territory overlaps with the territory covered in #6, which means you have a lot of locations that are present on the map... but don't have any detail attached until the next adventure. Whether you like the wilderness better then, we'll see.

Actaully... we had to fit all of this region's locations into this adventure, because the last adventure's more about a terrible blight and horror that affects the ENTIRE Stolen Lands; it's not just centralized in a specific region. There's also a fair amount of First World stuff going on as well. So yeah... we did have to fit all the Glenebon Uplands encounters into part 5.

Also, as mentioned above... at this level, the PCs are pretty high level. Flight, teleportaion, and other options make overland exploration less and less compelling for most groups. If this isn't the case for your group... you'll probably want to take the time to design a few more encounters. (As for the empty dragon lair... never fear: that dragon won't go "wasted" for much longer!).

The overland encounters that occur in part 6 occur throughout the Stolen Lands, in other words; and the exact locations are left to each GM so that you can place them in areas that, in your particular game, have been more important than in others.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I think that there's a VERY good chance that some groups will see through the ruse and avoid going to the tournament. Especially groups whose GM has, over past campaigns, done a lot with NPC betrayals and ambushes and the like. (A GM really only has to do this twice over the course of a career as a GM with the same group to forever make his players suspicious of all NPCs, I think!)

All of which is why I added the section on page 9, "A Note about Timing." To summarize, this is a sandbox adventure and you shouldn't feel obliged to run it in order from page 6 to page 59. If the PCs don't want to go to the tournament, congratulate them on their shrewd judgement of character and then have a frustrated Irovetti attack their kingdom anyway. Then, once the PCs win, you can use the tournament section as a celebration type event rather than a distraction.

Paizo Employee CEO

Spoiler:
One of the things that I am planning to do when I run Kingmaker is to have the PC's invited to attend the Outlaw Council in Daggermark once their kingdom gets up to a big enough size. Not only will this allow the PCs to mingle with the rulers of the other large River Kingdoms, but it will introduce them to Irovetti, whom I am going to make into a charming fella who just wants to be friends and all since they are neighbors and such. With this background, I doubt that my PCs will think negatively about the invite. Also, it would be a HUGE political faux pas to refuse an invite from another Outlaw Council leader.

-Lisa


Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:
Got my shipping notice today - what a nice birthday present! :)

Belated happy birthday. Am still waiting for mine :)

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

James Jacobs wrote:
I think that there's a VERY good chance that some groups will see through the ruse and avoid going to the tournament. Especially groups whose GM has, over past campaigns, done a lot with NPC betrayals and ambushes and the like. (A GM really only has to do this twice over the course of a career as a GM with the same group to forever make his players suspicious of all NPCs, I think!)

Whaaattt? NPC betrayal? Come on, it wasn't THAT many times...

James Jacobs wrote:
All of which is why I added the section on page 9, "A Note about Timing." To summarize, this is a sandbox adventure and you shouldn't feel obliged to run it in order from page 6 to page 59. If the PCs don't want to go to the tournament, congratulate them on their shrewd judgement of character and then have a frustrated Irovetti attack their kingdom anyway. Then, once the PCs win, you can use the tournament section as a celebration type event rather than a distraction.

Good point. The tournament piece really could happen any time you want it to, and for that matter anyWHERE you want it to. Heck, the PCs could HOST the tournament (perhaps suggested by some NPC) as a goodwill gesture to their neighbors, they could hold the event in their own kingdom, or co-host it with nobles from Pitax, Mivon, or Brevoy. Most of the skulduggery could still happen by all the rascals they invite in as their guests.

Spoiler:
Also, I may need to reread the final version of the adventure, as I don't recall anything really sinister happening *AT* the tournament, that it was any kind of trap for them that they would need or want to avoid. Must go back and check...

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Lisa Stevens wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

-Lisa

Brilliant!

Spoiler:
I wrote the mod assuming the PCs wouldn't really know much about Irovetti other than his name and some general info they could get from talking to NPCs, gathering info - the sort of general stuff they could get from the Player's Guide or Guide to the RK's. When the PCs get his invite, they wouldn't suspect him of anything in particular.

But... if he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar at Drelev, there might be some 'splainin' to do. Then again, that's what all those bard levels are for!

The key point for anyone with regard to the politically important NPCs from this adventure, both the ones that appear directly in the adventure like Villamor Koth and Irovetti, and the background NPCs like the leaders of the other RKs who appear at the tournament, is the same:

Foreshadowing is your friend.

If you want to set up a certain outcome for WotRK, then drop in extra information about those NPCs ahead of time. Afford them an opportunity to meet them in person, or at least their representatives. I did much the same with Maegar Varn during KM #2 to set up things that will happen in KM #3, and it ended up leading in some very interesting directions (as in, one of the PCs getting pregnant by way of Varn and the two deciding to marry... blissfully unaware of the bad juju lurking around the corner in #3). You can and absolutely should do the same with Koth, Irovetti, and any other NPCs you want to set up.

As a GM *running* the AP you have two great advantages:

1. You know your players and what they will respond to; and,
2. You get to see the whole AP laid out either before you start running it or at least while you're running it.

Most groups running Kingmaker are now in #2 or #3, but you get to look ahead several issues, see what you think will work for your players and not work for them... and you also are in position to do something about it! You don't need to take our words on the page as indelible fate. You can craft and manipulate events, foreshadow and set up people and events that are coming down the road in a way that will grease the skids for when your players finally get there. You can add or remove clues that you think would make things problematic for your PCs going along where you want them to.

No adventure is going to be great for every group of players just sitting on the page, no matter how much time, effort, skill, and love go into it (which I can tell you is quite a bit), less still an entire series of adventures. Hopefully with a little of your secret GMing sauce, though, it'll make sweet, sweet music.


Jason: Well done!!

My PCs will go just because there is a tournament. They won't care if they know he's the BBEG or not, the chance to compete would be enough. I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The mass combat rules rule! And frankly, so do the tournament rules. And the quest for the drunken jousting absolutely rocks. I can see more than one of my PCs, even ones who can't ride, entering for a shot at that.

One question - you said that improvements to armies cost continuing consumption. How about siege engines, which are kind of expensive. That seems a little high for a weekly cost.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Major__Tom wrote:

Jason: Well done!!

My PCs will go just because there is a tournament. They won't care if they know he's the BBEG or not, the chance to compete would be enough.

I think this is the reaction I was hoping for in including it in the adventure. "There's a tournament? With jousting and archery and who knows what else? And we get to go and be big shots with our own kingdom? AWESOME!"

Major__Tom wrote:
I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.

The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it, which would lead me to suggest:

a. Change the weapons it switches into into ones your PCs actually use; or,
b. Change the ITEM ITSELF so that it can change into items selected BY THE WIELDER. Say:

- Base form is a +2 light mace
- 3/day you can change it into another weapon: a +4 one-handed martial melee weapon; a +3 spear, lance, or polearm; or a +1 flaming (or perhaps any energy type) weapon of ANY KIND (including exotic weapons, two-handed weapons, even ranged weapons).

You could put a limit on the duration it can be used for any weapon, but the point of it would really be that it's a moddable weapon that allows a fighter to be ready for anything.

Just an idea...

Major__Tom wrote:

The mass combat rules rule! And frankly, so do the tournament rules. And the quest for the drunken jousting absolutely rocks. I can see more than one of my PCs, even ones who can't ride, entering for a shot at that.

One question - you said that improvements to armies cost continuing consumption. How about siege engines, which are kind of expensive. That seems a little high for a weekly cost.

James is actually the genius responsible for the mass combat rules (and the highly entertaining addition of drunken to jousting), so he will be the authority of reference for the weighting and costing of various improvements to armies.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Jason Nelson wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.
The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it.

But why are the save DCs so witheringly low? At this level, that's just useless. I'll be bumping them (probably by about 10!). But even then, at 1/day, and requiring a touch attack (for 2 of the uses), that's still not that amazing.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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Erik Freund wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
I can't see any of them actually using the ROLM, but I can see them snapping it up and selling it, and using it to improve about a dozen other magical items.
The RoLM is a totally weird old-school item, which I think fit better in the age of the game before specialization, where people used anything they found. I can see how "modern" characters might have reservations about it.
But why are the save DCs so witheringly low? At this level, that's just useless. I'll be bumping them (probably by about 10!). But even then, at 1/day, and requiring a touch attack (for 2 of the uses), that's still not that amazing.

The save DCs are set at the defaults, which are the relevant spells with minimum stat mods.

If you think they're too low, by all means change them. They're entirely arbitrary grab-bag abilities that are what they are. You could think about having them able to be activated as an immediate action, say any time you score a crit with the rod (in whatever form it is) - might make them more handy even with the lower saves.

As I said, the rod is a weird grab-bag item from the quirky days of 1st Ed. Why does it do these particular spell effects? Why these weapons? Why does it turn into a LADDER? It's high on quirk and low on min-max specialization. That's just not what the RoLM is all about.


Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Paizo Employee CEO

Elfgasm wrote:
Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Feel free to use any ideas I put up there! That is what makes paizo.com so cool, is all the GMs sharing ideas. It has made my own campaign so much richer and more detailed. I am happy to throw in my own 2 cents when it make sense. :)

-Lisa

Scarab Sages

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Elfgasm wrote:
Holy crap thanks for the map info guys! And I've looked up what the Outlaw Council is on the wiki; great stuff Lisa, and I'm going to use it as well if that's okay. We're actually just finishing up the first module on Sunday - since we alternate two games, it takes forever to get through these. :)

Feel free to use any ideas I put up there! That is what makes paizo.com so cool, is all the GMs sharing ideas. It has made my own campaign so much richer and more detailed. I am happy to throw in my own 2 cents when it make sense. :)

-Lisa

Awesomeness, I think I'll be doing the same thing. Thank you for the idea, I was just starting to get worried because...

Spoiler:
...my regular group is sodding paranoid, as I usually run intrigue-heavy games full of rogues, spies, and assassins, and they also like playing politics and having a wider effect on the world, so allowing them to attend a regional council would be perfect on both counts!


I've got to say Jason that I really like how you handled the tournament. I ran a Birthright game two years ago, and those archery and jousting rules seem a lot of fun. I think your rules will find a lot of use in other tournaments!


Hey Lisa sorry to bug you, but at which point/during which module do you plan on having them go to the Outlaw Council? I want to make it so that they are important enough to be invited, but politically weak enough to feel like the underdog there.


Stephan wrote:


You´re right, this AP was fantastic and still is. I´ve never said the AP is bad, not at all. My "analysis" is about this module. I read the adventure, and I´ll play it, but I still think my complaints are reasonable. Others have no complaints, and that´s fine. But this is a discussion, and not only positive critiques should be allowed.

I just don't agree with you. Doesn't mean I was implying that only shiny happy people should post.

Paizo Employee CEO

Elfgasm wrote:
Hey Lisa sorry to bug you, but at which point/during which module do you plan on having them go to the Outlaw Council? I want to make it so that they are important enough to be invited, but politically weak enough to feel like the underdog there.

The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold. That should get them to the point of being worthy to be at the Council. But I think a lot will depend on your own campaign and how significant the PC's country is by that time. It may take longer or it may take less time. You be the judge!

-Lisa

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Lisa Stevens wrote:
The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold.

That would make for good timing, especially considering...

Spoiler:

..."Lady" Maray makes an appearance in Blood for Blood, which is the adventure that immediately follows The Varnhold Vanishing. And she's an agent/spy for Daggermark and the Outlaw Council who's specifically dispatched to look into the new "kingdoms" taking shape in the Stolen Lands. Initially, she looks in on Lord Drelev of the Drelev Demesne. But, once the PCs deal with that despot, she could easily turn her attention on them instead. After all, they'll be the growing power in the region.

In fact, I think it would be really cool if the PCs met Lord Drelev at the Outlaw Council (who also merited an invitation) and saw him dallying with "Lady" Maray out of sight of Baroness Pavetta, as well. Maybe they'd even meet her themselves, further cementing the thought that she's a disaffected noble from Galt. It would make for a nice to thread to further weave throughout the adventure, at least. And, it would set up Blood for Blood if they got a chance to interact with Lord Drelev at the same event prior to having to put him down and liberate the citizens of his kingdom.


My two-cents,
--Neil


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Very nice ideas there, Lisa and Neil! I'll have to remember them when the time comes.

Paizo Employee CEO

NSpicer wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
The Outlaw Council really only invites those who rule "significant" countries in the River Kingdoms. I am thinking that might be sometime after volume 3 when the PCs annex Varnhold.

That would make for good timing, especially considering...

** spoiler omitted **
My two-cents,
--Neil

Excellent weave Neil! I just finished reading your adventure and it is really fun! I love the little threads like the one in your spoiler, which a GM can use to weave in a larger sense of the world. Fun stuff!

-Lisa

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Excellent weave Neil! I just finished reading your adventure and it is really fun! I love the little threads like the one in your spoiler, which a GM can use to weave in a larger sense of the world. Fun stuff!

Cool!

I really believe that's my signature style. I'm a thread-weaver. I usually have so many "hooks" and "threads" that come to me when I'm writing something, I have to consciously rein them in and only go with the handful that make the most sense. I liked including that particular thread in Blood for Blood because, having also worked on Guide to the River Kingdoms, I already had a larger sense of the world where Kingmaker takes place and thought it deserved incorporating a few elements from outside the borders of the Stolen Lands and Pitax.

Hope you have fun with your campaign,
--Neil

Sovereign Court

I know this thread is old, but for anyone scrounging the forums for Kingmaker tips in the modern age...

I started writing letters to the players from various characters early on, so I had used this letter early on in book 4:

Letter from Irovetti:
Greetings from his Supreme and Inimitable Magnificence, Castruccio Irovetti, by the grace of the gods rightful King of Pitax, Marvel of Numeria, Master of Mormouth, and Prince-Regent of the Sellen, to Zanzuket, my most favorite baronet-claimant of the contested Northern River Kingdom territories.
It is with great delight that I conclude you have declared a war of aggression upon that loud, laughable lout, the self-proclaimed Lord Drelev. It feels like it was merely yesterday that he chased Tiger Lord Tribesmen into Pitaxian lands, and I would have expected him to stay quite quiet for at least half a decade to come following the consequences of his actions.
It is a mighty shame, I am certain you will agree, when a conflict that ought by all rights to have stayed local none the less happens to spill across the borders of a neighbor with little patience for such troublesome trifles. I am delighted that at least one of the parties partaking in this pesky conflict has the wits necessary to avoid provoking the ire of their neighbors, even if this dedication to decorum prevents them from marching armies through territory with such a broad array of contentious claimants along the borders, which even mighty Pitax would likely not be able to guard them from, should the easily offended find themselves taking offense.
You will no doubt be delighted to hear that I gave serious consideration to the possibility of inviting you to the coming Rushlight Tournament, for the first time since I learned that you existed! A great honor, I dare say, to even be considered, and a true testament to your prowess, indeed, only an actual invitation would have been a grander praise for your fledgling realm. However, the realities of the political and military currents that flow through the River Kingdoms are forcing me to extend no such invitation at this point.
Your association with the Brevoy city of Restov is an ongoing source of concern, and an overt display of independence would benefit you greatly, whether against the country or that dog Drelev. I look forward to seeing how you act in this matter. Show the colors of the rivers that run in your veins!

-King Castruccio Irovetti of Pitax

This was mostly a response to the PCs considering the possibility of deploying armies in book 4, but it also set up the Rushlight Tournament as something to be achieved by impressing the other lords.

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