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I am leaning towards not only allowing it to do this, but also just plain interpreting it that way. It does not in any way seem overpowered. It's... interesting. I like it.
If I were GMing Pathfinder I would likely do this too; but like anything in a game (whether legal by RAW or not) if it becomes too powerful so that the fun of other players is adversely affected I reserve the right to nerf it. As it is I think it is a neat little extra ability.
However, I understand that we may be in the minority so I won't be pushing this with my Pathfinder GMs for my Cleric and Sorcerer :)
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. [Emphasis mine.]
So a cantrip affected with metamagic is cast as if it were a higher-level spell, even though it otherwise operates at it original level.
But a spell that counts as something other than 0-level when being cast doesn't count as a 0-level spell being cast, so the benefits of the cantrip class ability don't apply.Did people miss this post? I can see it plain as day in plain english..."prepared and cast as a higher level spell" so therefore as Epic Meepo stated..it aint a cantrip when cast therefore the rule of unlimited doesnt apply.
Seeing as its RAW and from the beloved PRD I cant see how it can be disputed personally by those who like the rules exactly as they are written.
As guessed in mine Digitalmage it wont be allowed for the cleric or your party evoker, even though its "minor" as some people call it simply because I dont believe its in the spirit of the game, or indeed a valid "reading" of the rules in this case.
Already people have suggested good ideas, need to defend that town, create ice walls, prepare thousands upon thousands of permanent prestigitations to offput the enemy etc etc.
I do however like the idea of if you want another cantrip at will, give up a level one spell slot (as you suggested earlier Digitalmage).
Seems a fair return.
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0-level spells ... These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
This means that a metamagiced cantrip can be cast again and again just like any other cantrip.
A metamagic'd cantrip with a LA >= 0 is no longer a 0 level spell and no longer immune from being expended.
Same goes for Heighten, a Heightened spell of LA +2 uses up a slot 2 levels higher than the original spell.
Seeing as its RAW and from the beloved PRD I cant see how it can be disputed personally by those who like the rules exactly as they are written.
It is called "willful misinterpretation" and is very common.
Did people miss this post? I can see it plain as day in plain english..."prepared and cast as a higher level spell" so therefore as Epic Meepo stated..it aint a cantrip when cast therefore the rule of unlimited doesnt apply.In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. [Emphasis mine.]So a cantrip affected with metamagic is cast as if it were a higher-level spell, even though it otherwise operates at it original level.
But a spell that counts as something other than 0-level when being cast doesn't count as a 0-level spell being cast, so the benefits of the cantrip class ability don't apply.
This quote was in the section that tells us what different types of feats are.
When we move on to what metamagic feats actually are and how they work, we'll see this:
Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
IMO, this part of rules is a better source for definition of metamagic.
[Edit], because some of the quote tags were messed up.[/edit]
I think this prooves people will read the bits they want to read and neglect the others that dont fit so just play the game how you want to play it I guess :)
It never said change the level for purposed of effective level etc it said it is cast at the higher level and prepared at higher level which counteracts the unlimited effect and comes off the higher level tally.
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. [Emphasis mine.]This quote was in the section that tells us what different types of feats are.
As far as I'm concerned, that quote is the last nail in the coffin; if a metamagicked cantrip is cast as a higher level spell, then it's not being cast as a cantrip any more. YMMV, of course.
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This does not change the level of the spell[/b], so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
That is the line that is being misinterpreted often (especially in the wonki "I get the benefits of Heighten for free if I combine with another metamagic like maximized heighten fireball for 6th level with 6th level DCs" crowd.)
The easiest way to fix most of these would be to change
"This does not change the level of the spell"
to something like
"The spell functions as a spell of it's original level, but is not considered a spell of it's original level for any effect except save DCs."
This closes off the "it's a Maximized Fireball so it fits in a Ring of Spell Storing that holds a 3rd level spell" and the other item creation related effects that are based off the level of the spell and anything odd like "cantrips are free infinite use" like this thread suggests (incorrectly.)
As far as I'm concerned, that quote is the last nail in the coffin; if a metamagicked cantrip is cast as a higher level spell, then it's not being cast as a cantrip any more. YMMV, of course.
You might want to read the context of that quote. It talks of different types of feats. Later on in metamagic section rules concerning metamagic are actually explained.
Actually, I'll provide the context for you.
Types of FeatsSome feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group. Others are item creation feats, which allow characters to create magic items of all sorts. A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were of a higher spell level than it actually is.
Then it talks about combat, item creation and critical feats in depth. After that, it talks about metamagic feats more than just giving a single sentence description of what metamagic is like. That description was quoted in my previous post.
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I think this prooves people will read the bits they want to read and neglect the others that dont fit so just play the game how you want to play it I guess :)
It never said change the level for purposed of effective level etc it said it is cast at the higher level and prepared at higher level which counteracts the unlimited effect and comes off the higher level tally.
I agree Dracon, after all, you seem to be neglecting:
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
[emphasis mine]
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or
0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 3–16 under “Spells
per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but
they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
So the metamagicked cantrip operates 'in all ways' as a 0 level spell. 0 level spells are not expended when cast and may be used again.
QED.
To my mind a Cantrip and a Spell are seperate entities. Cantrips are parlour tricks. Personally I would not allow them to be effected by metamagic feats. Thats the way I'm ruling it in 3.Spacelard.
This does not change the level of the spell[/b], so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.That is the line that is being misinterpreted often (especially in the wonki "I get the benefits of Heighten for free if I combine with another metamagic like maximized heighten fireball for 6th level with 6th level DCs" crowd.)
A heightened spell is actually higher level, so this wouldn't work in any case.
And now to tie this post into metamagic cantrip discussion:
Actually, even following my interpretation of rules (cantrip is a 0-level spell, not a 0-level spell slot) a heightened cantrip wouldn't be a 0-level spell anymore.
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Yes James,
Changing the rule as written would fix the problem with the rule as written.
On the other hand the rule as written would allow for the 'infinite cantrip' clause that has been discovered.
Amazingly, the arguement that 'using this loophole I can put a maximised fireball in a lesser ring of spell storing' fails the RTFM test.
Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat.
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Did people miss this post? I can see it plain as day in plain english..."prepared and cast as a higher level spell" so therefore as Epic Meepo stated..it aint a cantrip when cast therefore the rule of unlimited doesnt apply.
The key thing is the definition of what constitutes a cantrip, that is where the ambiguity is.
Is a Cantrip a level 0 spell?
Is a Cantrip a spell with an effective spell level of 0?
Is a Cantrip a spell cast in a level 0 spell slot?
Is a Cantrip any of the spells listed under "Cantrips" in the spell list section (i.e. Resistance, Acid Splash etc)?
Depending upon the definition used, the reading of the RAW changes.
I tend to assume the latter, and that Cantrip is just a label given to a particular set of spells.i.e. Acid Splash is a Cantrip.
With this definition Acid Splash is still a cantrip if prepared in a level 1 spell slot. It is still a Cantrip if enhanced by metamagic and prepared in a level 1 spell slot. And therefore the OP's reading of RAW would fit.
This reminds me of my opinion of boy racer cars - they take a Ford Fiesta, put on a big exhaust, spoilers, high performance tyres and probably several hundred pounds worth of body kit, fine tune the engine etc and I think "But its still a Fiesta!". :)
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In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. [Emphasis mine.]This quote was in the section that tells us what different types of feats are.As far as I'm concerned, that quote is the last nail in the coffin; if a metamagicked cantrip is cast as a higher level spell, then it's not being cast as a cantrip any more. YMMV, of course.
So a meta magic cantrip is cast in the same manner as a higher level spell?
But then in the write up of the Wizards Cantrip ability it states that Cantrips are "cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."
This sentance implicitly draws a parallel in the way a cantrip is cast and "any other spell", i.e. higher level spells, are cast and says there is no difference except the fact that the cantrip is not expended.
So the fact that a metamagic enhanced cantrip is cast like a higher level spell means that it is cast in exactly the same way as any cantrip (it is prepared differently yes, but cast the same).
So there appears to be no contradiction between the OP's interpretation and the PRD section quoted above (IMHO of course) :)
EDIT actually reading my post through again, I am not sure, A cantrip "cast as a higher level spell" is still a cantrip but now being cast in the same way that a level 1 or 2 spell would be cast and that includes being expended - but it is still a cantrip (IMHO) so does the exclusion still apply. Which trumps which? It being a Cantrip or it being cast as a higher level spell?
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A heightened spell is actually higher level, so this wouldn't work in any case.
I agree, but it doesn't list an LA for Heighten, so it doesn't stop those that believe a Heightened Spell is a LA +0 that must take up a higher level slot and as such can be used for free if combined with another metamagic. I hate that interpretation, but there isn't anything in the RAW that directly addresses their wonki interpretation (that is clearly incorrect) so they continue to assert it is a perfectly valid interpretation.
Changing the rule as written would fix the problem with the rule as written.
Changing the RAW is the only way to fix it. The people with wonki interpretations accept nothing less than "mr. wonki person, your interpretation is wrong" written in the book to dissuade them of their views.
Which trumps which? It being a Cantrip or it being cast as a higher level spell?
Thats the important bit, and fits the read whatever you want, until one of the writers comes on, just play with whatever fits your group I guess :) However there is no way I can now see anyone giving up their viewpoint without writer interaction because everyone believes their viewpoint is right and both sides can manipulate text to say what they want - catch 22 :).
I doubt this will rank highly enough for say Jason to come in and give an explanation of what he meant when he developed the book.
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This reminds me of my opinion of boy racer cars - they take a Ford Fiesta, put on a big exhaust, spoilers, high performance tyres and probably several hundred pounds worth of body kit, fine tune the engine etc and I think "But its still a Fiesta!". :)
Thank you for the morning merriment with that image.
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. [Emphasis mine.]This quote was in the section that tells us what different types of feats are.As far as I'm concerned, that quote is the last nail in the coffin; if a metamagicked cantrip is cast as a higher level spell, then it's not being cast as a cantrip any more.
Except for this point made earlier:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.Emphasis mine.
Here's evidence that "cast as a higher-level spell" means "as if" without actually making it a higher level spell:
A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were of a higher level than it actually is.
Why so eager to put a nail in the coffin? The OP's interpretation is interesting, and I don't think anyone has disproved it or shown that it hurts the game.
Why so eager to put a nail in the coffin? The OP's interpretation is interesting, and I don't think anyone has disproved it or shown that it hurts the game.
I think it's harmless (and even reasonable) to interpret it that way, but I think the intent is that a metamagicked cantrip is treated as a higher level spell for all purposes except for DCs and whether it's stopped by Globe of Invulnerability (say). ("Last nail in the coffin" is an exaggeration, I admit.)
Frankly, they could have avoided a whole bunch of ambiguity by just saying that a spell cast using a higher slot (metamagicked, not metamagicked, whatever) is treated as a higher level spell. Then they could have turfed the Heighten Spell feat, and a whole bunch of things get simplified. But alas, it was not to be.
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Frankly, they could have avoided a whole bunch of ambiguity by just saying that a spell cast using a higher slot (metamagicked, not metamagicked, whatever) is treated as a higher level spell. Then they could have turfed the Heighten Spell feat, and a whole bunch of things get simplified. But alas, it was not to be.
That's such a good idea that I'm going to playtest that for a while. Nobody I game with has ever taken Heighten and it does feel like something that wizards should just be able to do. I also feel a little dim for not thinking of it :)
I'm still going to let metamagic cantrips refresh though and see how that gets used in the game.
Here is a question, slightly off-topic, if you had a wizard with a 10 intelligence (me smartest orc in village, me can even read), could they prepare and cast an extended light spell (prepared in a 1st level spell slot obviously)? Since they can't use 1st level spells due to their low intelligence but they still get the slots.
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Here is a question, slightly off-topic, if you had a wizard with a 10 intelligence (me smartest orc in village, me can even read), could they prepare and cast an extended light spell (prepared in a 1st level spell slot obviously)? Since they can't use 1st level spells due to their low intelligence but they still get the slots.
Interesting question.
A quick scan through the PDF doesn't say implicitly either way.
Under Wizard it states:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
But under Metamagic, it states:
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
[Emphasis Mine]
Now using the same logic I've been applying to cantrips (0-level spells refresh, a 0-level spell metamagicked to a 5th level slot in all ways operates as its original spell level, thus they refresh) since the wizard must prepare and cast the spell and metamagicked spells are stated to be 'prepare[d] and cast as a higher level spell' RAW would tell me no.
However, since that was not the case in 3.x and was called out as such, I'd be inclined to grandfather it in as a house rule.
According to my reading of the rules, yes. A wizard needs int 10 + spell level to cast a spell, not use a spell slot of that level.
However, since that was not the case in 3.x and was called out as such, I'd be inclined to grandfather it in as a house rule.
Ditto this for me - the use of high level slots for metamagic for a very low-stat caster is one of the 'cutest' things about 3rd edition. Just imagine a high level goblin wizard, running around with maximized quickened burning hands spells with an 11 Int.
A quickened magic missile does remain a 1st level spell, one that requires a 4th level slot. "A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level."
Absolutely. A quickened magic missile remains a 1st-level spell, but the number that a spellcaster can cast is still limited by his 5th-level spell slots.
I'm happy to allow metamagiced cantrips at my table, so that is one for your "few or no DMs".
Sure, it's your game! ;)
I don't know that there's any real argument that free metamagic cantrips is unbalanced, so fair enough.
According to my interpretation, though, a 1st-level spell somehow prepared in a 0-level slot could be cast without expending the spell slot. This might happen if the DM allowed a metamagic feat that increased casting time to reduce the level of the spell slot. And that would be much likelier to be unbalanced than free metamagic cantrips.
you should also allow a 1st level pearl of power to restore that quickened magic missile. I think it's an intentional misreading either way, but it's your call.
I think it would be fair for a 1st-level pearl of power to restore a quickened magic missile as a normal magic missile, unmodified by Quicken Spell, probably in the open 5th-level slot.
"The spell functions as a spell of it's original level, but is not considered a spell of it's original level for any effect except save DCs."
There are other effects that depend on level that this would modify. For example, lesser globe of invulnerability excludes all spell effects of 3rd level and lower. Consequently, as it stands, it will exclude a quickened magic missile.
if you had a wizard with a 10 intelligence (me smartest orc in village, me can even read), could they prepare and cast an extended light spell (prepared in a 1st level spell slot obviously)? Since they can't use 1st level spells due to their low intelligence but they still get the slots.
Indeed. Check "Magic" under "Arcane Spells > Spell Slots": A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
I think using the word "clearly referring" is not the case here.
My wizard prepares a cantrip, a 0-level spell, enhanced by metamagic, according to the Table: Wizard under "Spells per Day" (it is this table that informs me that I could only prepare 1 such cantrip rather than 3 due to needing a level 1 spell slot).
My wizard then cast this metamagic enhanced cantrip like any other spell, but (the argument goes) it is not expended when cast and may be used again.
...if the above text had stated Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day. As long as these cantrips are prepared in a 0-level spell slot they may be cast and not expended, able to be used again then I think yes, we could categorically put this to rest in terms of a matter of RAW.
A spell is not expended. A spell slot is. This argument relies on confusing the definition between spells and spell slots in the "Spells per Day" table.
The class description says: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.”
The "Spells per Day" table is a table of spell slots, not spells.
Thus, the "Cantrips" class feature is clearly referring to 0-level spell slots. It is talking about spells as they are PREPARED.
The term "spell slots" is, I believe, not used in any class description. I believe it only appears in the "Magic" chapter, which describes in more detail how spells are alloted and daily casting limited. We all know that spell slots limit the number of spells casters can use per day. But since the language describing spell slots does not appear in the class descriptions, we could use the discrepancy in the description between spell allotments and spell slots to play hijinks with the casting limits of ANY spellcaster.
One could argue that the class descriptions should be more precise, referring to spell slots rather than spells. But it is also true that the rules books have to serve several masters, including new players trying to figure out the game and how to play their character. A complicated description of spell slots may turn off new players in much the way that the complexity of the 3e-family rulesystems already does.
I think nearly everyone in this thread recognizes that free metamagicked cantrips goes against the spirit of the rules, even if an interpretation can be made that it does not violate the letter. Why should we prefer a convoluted interpretation that violates the spirit of the rules over the simple, obvious interpretation that does not?
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Although this is an interesting loophole, I would tend to avoid its use in game because of its potentially devastating consequences when tied in with various Metamagic effects from non-core sources.
Imagine our friendly little Acid Splash (or any other damage dealing cantrip) combined with Fell Drain...every time you hit with an RTA, you do 1d3 damage plus a negative level. Now imagine that you never expend a spell slot to do that! I would call that broken. Quickened Fell Drain Acid Splash is even worse...
IMO YMMV
Lets try some clarification. Essentially as a sorcerer you're not expending spells but spell slots. If you use metamagic on a cantrip, you are using a level 1 spell slot to cast itThanks you answered your own point..at the cost of a higher level spell slot, so you can still cast a non meta magic cantrip all day but you lose a level 1 slot every time you cast the meta magic version.Point out where I did that.
A cantrip has a property that says it's not expended when cast and can be used again.
A cantrip with metamagic is still a cantrip. It might take up some other spell slot, but it's a cantrip.
Therefore, a cantrip with metamagic is not expended when cast and may be used again.
True.
, which means you run out of level 1 spell slots after you shoot them all.
Well, no. Sorcerer is pretty clear about not having anything called a 0-level slot. Cantrips for a sorcerer say they don't consume any slots and can be used again.
IF you're a wizard, you prepared it in a level 1 spell slot which you expend when it's cast so the issue doesn't come up at all.
Then again there's my houserule which says you can't metamagic cantrips or orisons period because they are not full complete spells. case closed.
See pages 1-4 of this thread for why empty words don't take this discussion anywhere. If you have any proof of your claims feel free to share them.
Indeed. Check "Magic" under "Arcane Spells > Spell Slots": A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
if you had a wizard with a 10 intelligence (me smartest orc in village, me can even read), could they prepare and cast an extended light spell (prepared in a 1st level spell slot obviously)? Since they can't use 1st level spells due to their low intelligence but they still get the slots.
So are you saying that an extended light spell is still a 0-level spell?
Lets try some clarification. Essentially as a sorcerer you're not expending spells but spell slots. If you use metamagic on a cantrip, you are using a level 1 spell slot to cast it
True.
, which means you run out of level 1 spell slots after you shoot them all.
Well, no. Sorcerer is pretty clear about not having anything called a 0-level slot. Cantrips for a sorcerer say they don't consume any slots and can be used again.
There is an issue here, he said level 1 slot not level 0 slot as the cantrip is at level 1 for casting.
See pages 1-4 of this thread for why empty words don't take this discussion anywhere. If you have any proof of your claims feel free to share them.
I have seen perfect proof of both sides here, Im sorry but you are not the only one who has posted proof validating their viewpoint from the rules. Dismissing out of hand is not fair to any of the previous posters simply because it doesnt fit your view of the ruling.
I have seen perfect proof of both sides here, Im sorry but you are not the only one who has posted proof validating their viewpoint from the rules. Dismissing out of hand is not fair to any of the previous posters simply because it doesnt fit your view of the ruling.
I wasn't responding to the entire thread. I was responding to one specific poster who happened to leave proof of his claims out of his post.
Others have made their cases better than just stating how they think things are. Simply stating how they are does not bring anything new into this discussion. Having proof to back it up does.
Also, the sorcerers don't have 0-level slots is totally relevant to this discussion. If they don't have 0-level slots, cantrips can't be spell slots. If they're not spell slots, they're the spells themselves. And even though they're spells, they have this little bit of rules stating that they "do not consume any slots and may be used again"
Edit: DigMarx, Is it cool to insult people on the internet?
So are you saying that an extended light spell is still a 0-level spell?
Light is a 0-level spell for sorcerers, wizards, clerics, and bards. When the Extend Spell feat is applied to it, it takes up a 1st-level spell slot for these casters.
Detect poison, on the other hand, is 0-level spell for clerics, druids, paladins, and wizards, but a 1st-level spell for paladins and rangers. When prepared with the Extend Spell feat by a ranger, it takes up a 2nd-level spell slot, but remains a 1st-level spell for him.
Sorcerer is pretty clear about not having anything called a 0-level slot. Cantrips for a sorcerer say they don't consume any slots and can be used again.
Sorcerer: Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer.
Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
The "Magic" chapter: If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.
And Metamagic Feats: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.
This is clear. When a sorcerer casts a 0-level spell modified by a metamagic feat, it takes up a higher-level spell slot, and counts against the sorcerer's daily casting limit for spells of the higher level.
The "Cantrips" class feature allows sorcerers to cast 0-level spells, which they thereby do without expending a spell slot. If they apply a metamagic feat to the 0-level spell, it requires a higher-level spell slot. This is an exception to the general class feature of the sorcerer, and it is pretty clearly stated.
If a sorcerer casts a quickened magic missle, it uses up a 5th-level spell slot. This is an exception to the normal handling of 1st-level spells as presented in the sorcerer class description.
Similarly, if a sorcerer casts a quickened acid splash, it uses up a 4th-level spell slot. This is an exception to the normal handling of 1st-level spells as presented in the sorcerer class description.
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Thank you for the sitations, GW, but I do not feel it disproves the arguement.
The Flaw, as I see it, is that no one is arguing that a empowered cantrip is taking up a higher level slot. I don't think anyone is implying that it isn't prepared or cast as a higher level spell (slot taken, casting DC, etc).
Cantrips are defined with the unique ability "These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast" Metamagic for Sorcerors/Bards it says "As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot."
So you can put a 0 level spell in a higher slot. You can prepare them and cast them. You can metamagic them but in all ways they remain a zero level spell, except for preparing and casting, "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell." One of the properties of a 0th level spells is "They are not expended when cast."
So an empowered acid splash takes up a 2nd level slot. It is treated as a 0 level spell in all ways (except for preperation and casting) so when they are cast, they refresh.
The only question is 'casting' The caster casts as a 2nd level spell, but it is treated as a 0 level spell. As a result, it is not expended.
Now this goes back to Presman's light question. If I understood your post, you'd allow his orc to cast an extended light, with a 10 intelligence, and a free second level slot 'since it's a zero level spell'. But, if the metamagic spell is 'prepared and cast as a higher level spell' then he can't do it because it's now a first level spell to prepare and cast, and that's beyond his 10 int.
Am I understanding you? And am I making my point clear?
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I have to disagree with you on this one, Matthew.
The way a spell operates and way way a spell are cast are two completely separate things.
The operation of a spell is a function of the spell itself. When a spell operates at its normal level, its spell effect is applied as if it were its normal level, and it counts as a spell of that level for the purpose of interacting with other effects, determining save DCs, etc.
The way a spell is cast is a function of the caster. The caster treats the metamagic spell as being higher level not because metamagic is changing the spell's level, but because metamagic is changing the rules the caster uses for casting that spell.
Essentially, the "prepared and cast at higher level" clause is explaining how the caster's metamagic feat is altering the way in which he casts metamagic spells. Even though the metamagic spell's level doesn't change, the caster interacts with the spell differently than he would any other spell of the same level. The spell level is unchanged, but the rules the caster must use when casting it are not.
Thank you EM, let me question your arguement as I understand it.
Since the spell is 'prepared and cast' at a higher level, it is no longer a zero level spell, so it isn't refreshed.
It is his interaction with the spell that exhausts the slot, not the metamagicked 0 level spell sitting there.
That I can understand and accept. I'm reading it as no matter where the spell sits, it is a zero level spell. While the caster casts (and prepares) the spell as an x level spell, the ability to be cast without expending a slot is a property of the spell operating, not how the caster interacts with it. So he prepares it (if needed) as a 2nd level spell (for extended light) casts it (with the higher DC on concentration) as a second level spell, needs a 12 in his casting stat, etc.* but because the spell level is unchanged, it doesn't consume the slot.
I'm going to allow the infinite cantrip trick, I think it's a cute trick and might get those metamagic feats some more use. But I am enjoying the debate.
*
First level spell slot and 11 casting stat. ;)
So you can put a 0 level spell in a higher slot. You can prepare them and cast them. You can metamagic them but in all ways they remain a zero level spell, except for preparing and casting, "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell." One of the properties of a 0th level spells is "They are not expended when cast."
So an empowered acid splash takes up a 2nd level slot. It is treated as a 0 level spell in all ways (except for preperation and casting) so when they are cast, they refresh.
The only question is 'casting' The caster casts as a 2nd level spell, but it is treated as a 0 level spell. As a result, it is not expended.
You're trying to have it two ways here.
If a caster prepares and casts a quickened magic missile, the enhanced spell is a 1st-level spell. Using only the class description of how magic works in the wizard class description, you would think that casting the quickened magic missile uses a 1st-level spell slot. However, we all know that the Feats section on handling metamagic trumps the general description on spell allotment in the class description, so that a quickened magic missile uses up a 5th-level spell slot.
However, you are arguing that the class description trumps the metamagic rules description in the case of cantrips, so that they never expend a spell slot.
Why would it be that the Feats section on metamagic trumps the general description "Spells" class feature of wizards, but not the "Cantrips" class feature?
If the class description is to trump the Feats section description of metamagic, why cannot a 1st-level wizard cast one? The rules clearly state that a quickened magic missile is a 1st-level spell, and the class description of the wizard clearly states that a wizard may prepare and cast one 1st-level spell per day.
I read the "as" in "prepare and cast as" to mean "prepare and cast in the manner of".
Now this goes back to Presman's light question. If I understood your post, you'd allow his orc to cast an extended light, with a 10 intelligence, and a free second level slot 'since it's a zero level spell'. But, if the metamagic spell is 'prepared and cast as a higher level spell' then he can't do it because it's now a first level spell to prepare and cast, and that's beyond his 10 int.
The rules make some explicit statements about the level of a spell prepared with a metamagic feat, and the costs of casting them.
The "Feats" section states: Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
The "Magic" sections states: A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels. ...To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.
An extended light spell is a 0-level spell that expends a 1st-level spell slot. It is not a 1st-level spell, so it is not beyond abilities of a wizard with a 10 Intelligence. However, it is prepared and cast in the same way that a 1st-level spell is prepared and cast, using and expending a 1st-level spell slot.
The rules explicitly state that a wizard can prepare a lower-level level spell in a higher-level slot. The wizard can thus prepare a 0-level spell as a 1st-level spell. This does not make the 0-level spell into a 1st-level spell. A fireball prepared in a 5th-level slot is still foiled by lesser globe of invulnerability (unless the caster uses Heighten Spell).
EDIT
To make clear how I'd handle an 10 Int orc wizard, he could prepare light in a 0-level spell slot, which is not expended when he casts the spell, but would prepare extended light in a 1st-level spell slot, which is expended when he casts the spell.
I really don't see why this is so difficult.
Cantrips are 0 level spells. Going back to Unearthed Arcana 1st ed where they first appeared, apprentices got one, two or three depending on how advance the apprentice was, and 1st level magic users could get a whole whopping 4 cantrips if they gave up one 1st level spell.
Back in my old 1st ed campaign, I allowed certain characters to get unlimited cantrips. It was fun and didn't break the game, but there were certain cantrips--notably Mute, Wrap and Spice--that were as powerful as 1st level spells if not more so in the right context.
Over the editions, 1st level spells that were too weak--for example, Dancing Lights--were bumped down to cantrips, and some cantrips were bumped up to higher level spells.
Pathfinder's new unlimited slot mechanic is basically good. But if you memorize a 0 level spell with metamagics that make it more than 0 level, then it's no longer a 0-level spell. You can, if you wish, Heighten a Ray of Frost to a 9th level spell, which could be fun as an insulting coup de grace for a red dragon. Memorizing that would use one of your 9th level spell slots, however. You can willfully misinterpret things to say that the spell remains because it's a cantrip, which is a 0 level spell, but that's not the way the rules were intended. About the only way to have one of your 0 level spells cast at a higher level without expending it would be to pump it through a metamagic rod.
There are also a few +0 metamagic feats out there. Invisible Spell and whatever the City Magic one is that turns things into city damage. You could keep zapping Invisible Citified Rays of Frost and have your opponents continually impaled by stealth icicles that keep dropping off the eaves of buildings.
Of course, there are still some problems with the cantrips system. The main one is Prestidigitation. Everyone takes Prestidigitation because it does all the stuff a wizard would like to do as incidentals, but it basically is there as a catch-all for all the fun cantrips from the 1st Unearthed Arcana which never exactly made it into the SRD for use in Pathfinder. It's okay as a space saver and catch-all, but troublesome in that it's basically the GM saying "You can do whatever you want, so long as it isn't very impressive." Of course the cleaning action, which used to be the old Clean cantrip, can be pretty darn impressive when it removes contact poison and other unpleasant grime. And the business about it letting you do whatever parlor tricks you want within its limitations for one hour seems a holdover from when cantrips weren't at-will abilities.
As a house rule, I'm considering extending all cantrips into the list of bonus spells, so wizards and others get more of them, and cracking Prestidigitation out into its original cantrips, with maybe small tweaks like making some of them reversible, so Clean/Dirty is one cantrip the same as Open/Close.
Moreover, old 1st ed had a separate set of cantrips for Illusionists, some of which were better. Wizards had Bluelight, whereas Illusionists could do Colored Lights. Having Cantrips that were unique to specialists would definitely help for flavor purposes.
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To add fuel to the fire, something contradictory.
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.* You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell**, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Wait, suddenly, according to the quote*, metamagic changes the spell's level cumulatively? But since metamagic doesn't change the spell's level**, it's a cumulative 0? It... doesn't really change the issue, but it shows, that even the Core Rulebook doesn't have the faintest clue what its supposed to do in this situation. :)
Also, misinterpreting that metamagic would increase the spell's level is a far worse misinterpretation. By doing so you are making every metamagic feat function as Heighten Spell in addition to its normal functions. Be sure to let my Widened Grease have the DC increased by 3, as it will be a 4-level spell. Or the Empowered Fireball, a 5-level spell.
I've just got to say that the only reason this topic is any sort of issue at all is because of how *weak* 0th level spells are.
If there were an ability similar to Cantrips, with identical language, for 1st level spells, very very few people would ever argue that you can Quicken a 1st level spell and have it infinitely available as a quickened action. It's only because infinite quickened acid splashes are almost laughable that the question is asked.
I could see an interesting compromise here though. Let's say you memorize an extended Daze. You can then cast that Daze spell infinitely (just like memorizing an extra cantrip), but once that day you can use it Extended. Sort of like "burning out" the extra charge of the slot.
That said, you people are crazy for worrying over this :)
Creative Director
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The rules as intended and as they should be interpreted are that you only get to cast 0 level spells at will. Once they're prepared with higher level spell slots, they follow all the rules for how higher level spell slots work.
Allowing all cantrips to be cast at will despite that spell slot you used to prepare the spell is an interesting house rule, though.
EDIT: And do try to remain level-headed and non-insulting in this thread. We built the game for folks to have fun with, not as a matrix upon which to build and maintain flame wars.
The rules as intended and as they should be interpreted are that you only get to cast 0 level spells at will. Once they're prepared with higher level spell slots, they follow all the rules for how higher level spell slots work.
Allowing all cantrips to be cast at will despite that spell slot you used to prepare the spell is an interesting house rule, though.
EDIT: And do try to remain level-headed and non-insulting in this thread. We built the game for folks to have fun with, not as a matrix upon which to build and maintain flame wars.
So if I choose to prepare a normal light spell (no metamagic feats applied or anything) in a 1st level spell slot (basically giving up a 1st level spell to prepare an "additional" 0 level spell). It would use up the slot after one casting?
EDIT: Ninja'ed! Dang it!