Of course, I'm pretty pissed about the fact that I either have to pay about twice the price for the book because of shipping, or pay extra for the PDF which should be free or at least really cheap.
Wait, why should the PDF be free, again?
Because I'm already getting the book. Usually, I can subscribe and get free PDFs. I trade in long shipping times (and loss of delivery options like packstation) and my commitment to this subscription and get a free PDF. Well, a really cheap PDF, since amazon usually has better prices even if you factor in the PF advantage - the shipping costs do that.
But this time, the shipping costs are so insane, so I'd end up paying about 30€ more for the Hardcover (factoring in combined shipping with other subscription products and my PF advantage, I'd still pay almost 80 dollars for the PF book. Amazon sells it for a bit over 35€, which translates into about 50 dollars right now).
I know I could improve the per-unit shipping costs by getting several hardcovers, but why would I need more than one? I only need one book, and the other players in my groups will buy from amazon because they wouldn't get a PDF, anyway (unless they subscribe themselves, which means they'll have to pay the high price like above).
So option A - committing to this subscription - will give me a "free" PDF that will cost me almost 30 dollars.
Then there's option B: Buying from amazon (or just not touching my preorder, which means you'd have to follow through on your original statement of somethin glike 7 dollars shipping costs, which makes you take a beating on this order and will probably give me the book earlier than buying from amazon, since this is priority shipping, and amazon.de will probably get the book a week or so after the official release date (their site says they'll get the book on Aug 19 - and preorders are probably shipped earlier than Aug 13).
I'll get the book for a whooping 50$/35€ - but no PDF! I'll have to buy it separately. Usually, those PDFs go for 70% of the print copy price. With the PF advantage, this would end up costing me almost 30 dollars (about the same as option A). It was said that this PDF will be cheaper than that, but even then it probably will be no cheaper than 50%, which still means over 20 dollars.
So instead of paying very little for PDFs (in exchange for my commitment), I now have to pay a lot for the PDF - and even more than a lot if I give you that commitment. And that's just not right.
So you wanted an answer on why the PDF should be free (or at least, really cheap - you didn't ask about that part, but I sure did mention it). Here it is. It should be free because I make a commitment. This commitment gives you an advantage, so I should get something in return. Because I like PDFs, I'd even pay a little extra. But 20+ dollars is just too much (or 30 if I commit).
You guys need to realise that: International customers get the shaft in this book (which might be the most important book of the year for many). You should react to that. I don't say that you should pay all the shipping for yourself, but since you're not willing (or able) to decrease shipping costs for us by using a local agent (who'd get a bulk shipment and then send out subscriptions), you should do something else, considering the situation.
Maybe give us the option of subscribing for PFRPG, but skipping the core book print edition and getting a better price on the PDF (maybe not quite free, but a lot less than 70 or even 50% of the print copy price). This way, we could get the book locally, not take a beating on the PDF, and then continue with the other books in a more normal fashion (they'll still have high shipping costs for multi-subscribers because if you combine PFRPG books with other subscriptions, the shipments will apparently be too heavy, so they would have to be split)
Or maybe give us internationals a shipping discount if we subscribe. You benefit from our commitment, and I'm quite sure that your net gain from selling a book on your own store (or via subscription) is a lot higher than selling it through other channels (because they're no distributors and retailers and whatnot on the line, all with their costs and need for profit). That means you probably could cover part of the high shipping cost (so the "free" PDF we get for giving you our loyalty won't cost us quite that much) and still get as much money out of this than if you'd have sent it through channels to stores. Maybe more, since depending on the numbers involved, you could give us a good deal and still do more than break even!
One more point, which this situation illuminated:
There should be a "combo deal" if someone buys both Print and PDF, even if that someone doesn't subscribe, even if he buys it somewhere beside your online store. I mean, come on, he already paid for the physical book, so he not only paid for the work you put into the product but also for the materials. He does get some extra use out of it, so I can understand why you don't want to give them away without getting something back, but 170% for print+pdf is too much.
The lack of such an option hurts those who want to support their FLGS - they probably pay a bit more than they would in your store (at least the stores around here charge more for RPGs than what is printed on the book). Making them pay again that much for the PDF is like a kick in the nuts. And apparently, those local stores are quite important, or so I'm being told.
It also hurts those who don't live in the USA, because international shipping isn't cheap, and sometimes (like this time), it can get ridiculous.
When wizard announced that they're planning on making electronic versions of their book available to those who bought the physical book, no matter where they bought it, all for "the price of a cup of coffee", I thought that was the right idea. Of course, they were lying through their teeth and don't even offer PDFs any more, but that's beside the point.
Paizo should offer something like this. Not necessarily the coffee-price thing, but something reasonable. I think anything below 25% of the cover price would be okay - there will be some extra costs for the delivery method, after all.
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For other subscriptions, there's the option to choose the next item in the subsciption to start with. So for the Chronicles you can choose between starting with Dungeon Denizens Revisited or the Legacy of Fire Map Folio. Does anyone know when this will appear for this subscription, so I can start from the Bestiary? I can't really afford to get the core book shipped directly from Paizo, but want to get the shiny tags as soon as I can...
For other subscriptions, there's the option to choose the next item in the subsciption to start with. So for the Chronicles you can choose between starting with Dungeon Denizens Revisited or the Legacy of Fire Map Folio. Does anyone know when this will appear for this subscription, so I can start from the Bestiary? I can't really afford to get the core book shipped directly from Paizo, but want to get the shiny tags as soon as I can...
In general, you can choose between starting with the current item or the next item. So I would guess you'd have to wait until the RPG book is current, i.e., August.
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Yeah I get what you are saying about the PDF but the problems is. If it is free that would cut into people buying the books and even more so subscribing to them and buying from Amazon then which they make a smaller profit on.
As to the giving it to those that buy the book from other sources you would have two problems.
1) Proof it was bought from another source.
2) Same as above people would buy from Amazon and then get the PDF for free or very cheap. Which would cut into Paizo's profits.
The best you could hope for is a future PDF subscription limited to oversea's customers only. Not saying that would happen but just saying of all the things I think that would be the most likely one.
In general, you can choose between starting with the current item or the next item. So I would guess you'd have to wait until the RPG book is current, i.e., August.
This is correct. Once the Core Book begins shipping, you will have the option to choose to start with it or the Bestiary, and that choice will remain available until the Bestiary itself ships.
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WARNING
With your ongoing subscription, we'll automatically send you new Pathfinder Roleplaying Game products as they are released, charging your credit card only as we ship each item.
Not true, they charged me at time of sign up for a august release...not to happy about that
It's not a charge, it's an authorization. It disappears off your account within a couple of days. It's always been this way with a subscription.
Director of Brand Strategy
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WARNING
With your ongoing subscription, we'll automatically send you new Pathfinder Roleplaying Game products as they are released, charging your credit card only as we ship each item.
Not true, they charged me at time of sign up for a august release...not to happy about that
You have not been charged. They verified that you had the correct amount on your credit or debit card but, depending on your bank's policies, you should see that verification disappear within the next few days. This will happen every time a new product ships, so that if there is a problem with your payment method or you need to change something about your subscription before it ships you have a few days to deal with those before the actual charge goes through and the book leaves Paizo's warehouse.
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Chief Technical Officer
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It's not a charge, it's an authorization. It disappears off your account within a couple of days. It's always been this way with a subscription.WARNING
With your ongoing subscription, we'll automatically send you new Pathfinder Roleplaying Game products as they are released, charging your credit card only as we ship each item.
Not true, they charged me at time of sign up for a august release...not to happy about that
Correct. You can read more about it here.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Is there any estimate of how much these books will affect shipping cost?
Whenever you want estimates incvolving shipping, the best thing to do is add stuff o your cart and start the checkout process. You'll see all your options and the potential results, tied to your specific items, your chosen shipping method, and for your specific address, before you commit to buying anything.
Correct. You can read more about it here.It's not a charge, it's an authorization. It disappears off your account within a couple of days. It's always been this way with a subscription.WARNING
With your ongoing subscription, we'll automatically send you new Pathfinder Roleplaying Game products as they are released, charging your credit card only as we ship each item.
Not true, they charged me at time of sign up for a august release...not to happy about that
Been there, freaked out about it too. :)
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Chief Technical Officer
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But this time, the shipping costs are so insane, so I'd end up paying about 30€ more for the Hardcover (factoring in combined shipping with other subscription products and my PF advantage, I'd still pay almost 80 dollars for the PF book. Amazon sells it for a bit over 35€, which translates into about 50 dollars right now).
I know I could improve the per-unit shipping costs by getting several hardcovers, but why would I need more than one? I only need one book, and the other players in my groups will buy from amazon because they wouldn't get a PDF, anyway (unless they subscribe themselves, which means they'll have to pay the high price like above).
So option A - committing to this subscription - will give me a "free" PDF that will cost me almost 30 dollars.
Then there's option B: Buying from amazon (or just not touching my preorder, which means you'd have to follow through on your original statement of somethin glike 7 dollars shipping costs, which makes you take a beating on this order and will probably give me the book earlier than buying from amazon, since this is priority shipping, and amazon.de will probably get the book a week or so after the official release date (their site says they'll get the book on Aug 19 - and preorders are probably shipped earlier than Aug 13).
I'll get the book for a whooping 50$/35€ - but no...
Hmm. Now, keep in mind that in August, you'll already be paying us *some* amount for shipping your other subscriptions. Since you'd already be paying Priority rates for the Core Rulebook under scenario A, it won't cost that much more to get the other stuff into the same package. That is, the cost of a shipping your subscription stuff along with the Core Rulebook plus is probably significantly less than the cost of shipping your subscription stuff separately from the Core Rulebook. And maybe that difference will help make up for some of it. Have your tried adding a sub to your cart and playing with the options?
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Chief Technical Officer
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When wizard announced that they're planning on making electronic versions of their book available to those who bought the physical book, no matter where they bought it, all for "the price of a cup of coffee", I thought that was the right idea. Of course, they were lying through their teeth and don't even offer PDFs any more, but that's beside the point.
When Wizards announced that, we were excited, because we'd been trying to figure out a reasonable way to do it for ages, and we were hoping that they'd somehow cracked the impossible nut, and we could learn something from their implementation. Of course, when they ended up saying they couldn't actually figure out a good way to do it, we weren't too surprised. But the things is, it appears that Wizards and Paizo are both in the same place on that—we both want to do it, but we can't come up with a reasonable way to do it. If you have some new ideas, please share them in one of the many existing threads on the topic.
The lack of such an option hurts those who want to support their FLGS...
True. And that's actually the answer to why we don't give free PDFs out to people who buy the print copies from paizo.com outside of a subscription—doing so would severely undercut FLGSs. Subscriptions are one thing, and many FLGSs kind of understand that, but if we offered a free PDF to anybody who buys from paizo.com, and couldn't offer it to anybody who buys it through the FLGS, FLGSs would—quite rightfully—be pretty cheesed off at us for doing so.
Again, if you have new ideas about how to handle this, please post them in one of the other threads—I don't want to derail this one with that discussion.
I tried to ignore this, for no other reason than to spare my wallet the pain and suffering, but there's simply no way I can let this subscription pass me by.
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I have to ask the question. How much will the PDF only price be?Normally, we price our PDFs at about 30% off of the print edition price; this will have a larger discount, but the exact price is still to be determined.
Whatever the price is, Pathfinder RPG subscribers will get it for free with their subscription copy of the print edition, and Pathfinder Adventure Path subscribers will get it for 15% off.
Thanks Vic! So, Assuming that Shipping to the UK costs $30 I make this list at current exchange rates (XE.com)....
From | Rulebook | PDF | Shipping | Total
Paizo | £25.74 | £0.00 | £18.19 | £43.93
Amazon | £28.49 | £16.95 | £0.00 | £45.44
FanBoy3 | £37.99 | £16.95 | £0.00 | £54.94
| Difference | -£1.51
| Difference | -£9.50
I obviously get the advantage, so the PDF is nice and cheap....So, Do I pay £1.51 to Amazon for free shipping? Or do I pay £9.50 to support my FLGS (who I keep wandering into an picking up piles of free books once a year, and buying a 50p dice from), or do I just subscribe?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I mean imagine my misery if AP #25 ships before the 13th.. I'd be stuck waiting for #26 in September! Not a fun kind of anticipation. :(We're currently expecting all August subscription products to ship together at the beginning of the month.
This was my concern as well. Does this mean *shakes magic 8 ball* subscribers will get their copies (and yummy PDFs) prior to Gencon?
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I mean imagine my misery if AP #25 ships before the 13th.. I'd be stuck waiting for #26 in September! Not a fun kind of anticipation. :(We're currently expecting all August subscription products to ship together at the beginning of the month.
Vic, I could kiss you.
I mean I won't. And I wouldn't really.
But, I could. You know... hypothetically speaking.
Very much appreciated, especially the combined shipping (now if only you could have offered that before the Dungeon and Dragon sale...). Of course I have to revise my budget for the increased amount I'm spending on Paizo products (August and September are early Christmas this year!).
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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Wow... well I guess when you game in the offices it's not so needed..
By the way ... I'm really excited about this! It will be my first Paizo subscription once I do it!Me too, Marc!
Playing in the offices entitles me to NOTHING, other than playing in the offices. But, really, isn't that enough? ;-)
I haven't subscribed before because I buy only what I need to play, when I need to play with it. Plus, I am big on seeing a book before I buy it.
Now, the RPG subscription is pretty much everything I'd buy anyway, and the delicious PDFs seal the deal.
Yeah I get what you are saying about the PDF but the problems is. If it is free that would cut into people buying the books and even more so subscribing to them and buying from Amazon then which they make a smaller profit on.
I'm not saying it should always be free. But paying 170% for print+pdf is too much. I can understand that they want to reservet he 100% deal for subscribers, but those who buy a print version should get a break on the pdf.
As to the giving it to those that buy the book from other sources you would have two problems.
1) Proof it was bought from another source.
2) Same as above people would buy from Amazon and then get the PDF for free or very cheap. Which would cut into Paizo's profits.
1) I'm sure they could come up with something.
2) I don't know if it would be that bad. Sure, some people would not subscribe now that they can get the PDF for a good price. But other people who don't buy at the store to begin with would not buy the PDF they'd otherwise not buy at all. And that means more profit.And Paizo has said at least once that they want and need the external sales, so I guess they would want to offer some incentive for those.
Hmm. Now, keep in mind that in August, you'll already be paying us *some* amount for shipping your other subscriptions.
Yes, I know. I figured that into my calculations. The shipping for the subscription items will cost me 10.91, which I already subtracted from the 45.05 the whole shipment would cost me. I already figured the shipping cost as "only" 34.something. That still means the book will cost me almost 80 dollars. Amazon.de's price translates into not quite 50$, which means I'll pay almost 30 bucks for the PDF.
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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stuff about buying PDFs
Catalyst Game Labs recently announced their intent to sell PDFs through retailers. Watch how that works, and I think you may have your mechanism...
stuff about buying PDFsCatalyst Game Labs recently announced their intent to sell PDFs through retailers. Watch how that works, and I think you may have your mechanism...
Paizo should definetly jump on that bandwagon. Form a strategic alliance with Catalyst, bring PDFs to the stores, and make people happy!
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Yeah i always wondered why no one sold PDF's in stores like how MMORPG's sell game cards. It is just a card sealed up with a serial number on it that unlocks the X amount of time the card is worth. No reason they couldn't do it with a PDF, other than it might drive up the cost of the PDF to much?
I always figured it was just a matter of store security. Cards would be incredibly easy to pocket and game stores don't usually have much in the way of high-tech anti shoplifting hardware.
Have a display box or card out front and the real ones behind the counter. but that might be to much work for most stores.
Yeah, they tend to have some glass cases for some stuff, anyway - put it in there. Or have mock-ups (which could be provided by Paizo) and keep the actual scratch'n'sniffs behind the counter.
Then you'd either have special cards which net you a Book + PDF or discounts for getting both PDF and print at once.
Come on, Paizo. Give us a little break. Make it worth our while to subscribe to this line and get the book for this shipping price. You're getting our commitment (and the associated help in extimating print run sizes) and get to sell the books at a much higher margin if we order directly from you as opposed to local stores or amazon sites or whatever. Don't you think we should get an incentive in the form of a discount on shipping?
It earns you goodwill points from customers and probably some money because it's got to be a better deal for you to sell directly, even after discounted shipping.
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Hmmmm, I may have to think about this one......(hopefully funds will be there in August)
Just curious, but if I set this up, when will the funds go out of my bank? When it ships?
I'm finding myself, going the pdf route with most rpg stuff now. I'm gonna be getting a laptop or netbook here shortly & I'm gonna slap all of my pdfs I have on there & start using that, so the pdf will be nice to have.
thanks
RM
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Hmmmm, I may have to think about this one......(hopefully funds will be there in August)
Just curious, but if I set this up, when will the funds go out of my bank? When it ships?
I'm finding myself, going the pdf route with most rpg stuff now. I'm gonna be getting a laptop or netbook here shortly & I'm gonna slap all of my pdfs I have on there & start using that, so the pdf will be nice to have.
thanks
RM
Speaking for myself their is a check when you order a item that shows up in your bank account but that goes away in a day or two depending on your bank.
then for me always when i get a email from paizo saying items are about to ship which is typically 3 days are so before they ship is when the charge shows up. But I don't think it actually leaves your account until the day it ships, it just shows up as a pending transaction on mine then.
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Speaking for myself their is a check when you order a item that shows up in your bank account but that goes away in a day or two depending on your bank.
then for me always when i get a email from paizo saying items are about to ship which is typically 3 days are so before they ship is when the charge shows up. But I don't think it actually leaves your account until the day it ships, it just shows up as a pending transaction on mine then.
Same here.
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If I subscribe, is there a way to only get the PDF? I've already preordered the printed copies from amazon.com at a price I couldn't turn down.
You can buy the PDF seperately at the PDF price (a bit lower than hardcopy usually) about a month after the product comes out. Those that subscribe get both immidiately. There is no PDF only subscriptions currently.
Okay... I read through all 140-some posts before mine... and I think I saw one poster ask this question, and I believe Gary answered (and others) but I just want to be sure, If I click on the RPG subscription it will automatically convert my preorders (of both the core rules and the bestiary) to the subscription? Do I have that right? (And will I get a "second" hit from Pazio to my bank card (insuring the funds are there) or since that part has already been done, it won't be repeated?) I'm not as concerned about a PDF here, I like them, they are handy (especially for handouts to be printed) I just don't want two core rule books and two bestiaries coming my way.
Sorry if that was long and rambly...
Thanks for any clarification provided.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm
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I had already ordered two copies each of the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary before I subscribed. I noticed that all previous orders for the books were canceled when I bought the subscription (I had thought only one copy would get canceled). No matter. I reordered another copy of the Core Rulebook with UPS 2nd day shipping.
As to the discussion of shipping costs vs. Amazon, I can certainly see why some people might balk at the expense. I get my Pathfinder stuff from Paizo mainly because I like what they're doing and I want to support the company. The free PDF is nice, too.
I also agree that Paizo should consider a bundled price discount for non-subscribers who want to buy a hard copy and the PDF version of a book. Great idea! They should extend the same bundled price to subscribers who want a product that pre-dates their subscription, as well (wouldn't do me any good, though...I picked up all the PDFs I was missing when Paizo did their PDF promotion a couple of months back).
Thanks Vic. I actually did that before you posted. It looks like it is actually only a few dollars more. Not bad considering shipping costs nowadays.
Okay... I read through all 140-some posts before mine... and I think I saw one poster ask this question, and I believe Gary answered (and others) but I just want to be sure, If I click on the RPG subscription it will automatically convert my preorders (of both the core rules and the bestiary) to the subscription? Do I have that right? (And will I get a "second" hit from Pazio to my bank card (insuring the funds are there) or since that part has already been done, it won't be repeated?) I'm not as concerned about a PDF here, I like them, they are handy (especially for handouts to be printed) I just don't want two core rule books and two bestiaries coming my way.
Sorry if that was long and rambly...
Thanks for any clarification provided.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm
Yes, when I ordered the "subscription" my pre orders were converted. I also opted to have everything shipped at one time to save on shipping. Since before a few days ago I only subscribed to PF. I too am falling into the Paizo money trap.
subscrbed
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Subscribed. What the heck, international postage gripes or not I'm just gonna order it through Paizo. It looks like the combined shipping with my other subscriptions will work out better than two separate postage costs, certainly with a free pdf.
QUESTION FOR VIC: In my subscription page it says that August will be USPS Priority though my usual preference is Standard, what with my being in Europe and getting a pdf instantly, I can usually wait for the physical copy. I was intending to shift to Priority for August - is this automatic or should I check closer to the time?
It is my understanding that for a parcel the format of the Core Rule Book there is only USPS Priority and no Standard Shipping any more. This is one of the reasons the shipping costs are so high.
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So, where did I put this blasted key?
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It is my understanding that for a parcel the format of the Core Rule Book there is only USPS Priority and no Standard Shipping any more. This is one of the reasons the shipping costs are so high.
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So, where did I put this blasted key?
I don't think that is true...
I am certain I am still getting Standard...
Eidt: Yup.. For August, I am still getting Standard shipping for all my subscriptions, combined in one shipment.
It is my understanding that for a parcel the format of the Core Rule Book there is only USPS Priority and no Standard Shipping any more. This is one of the reasons the shipping costs are so high.I don't think that is true...
I am certain I am still getting Standard...
Eidt: Yup.. For August, I am still getting Standard shipping for all my subscriptions, combined in one shipment.
I believe he meant for International (though I could be wrong) - are you international Dragonmoon?