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Okay, so, I'm making a Dragon Disciple for an 11th level game, and I decided to get some rods of Empower Metamagic, as well as Intensify metamagic.
So, here's the deal.
How does Empower stack with spells like, say, Scorching Ray? I've got 11 caster levels, so I get 3 scorching rays. Do I add an extra ray? (The effect depends on level, so it could be considered "variable", which would give me an extra ray). I know I would deal an extra 2d6 damage per ray.
Also, how do intensify and empower stack up? My thought would be that, at 11th level, an intensified, empowered Shocking Grasp would do 15d6 (10d6 intensified, 5 extra from empower), but would it instead end up doing 12d6? (2 extra from empower, 10 total from intensfy?)
Thanks for the help. Please understand that I'm not trying to be cheesy or anything. I just want a definite answer, as I can't seem to find one.
For Empower you increase any numbers produced from the Randomized portion of the spell by 50% so a level 5 shocking grasp, would do 5d6 for 14 points and then you would add 7 (50% of the rolled 14)
it doesnt increase the non random portion, so a level 9 magic missile empowered would be 5d4 (+ 50%) +5 so if you rolled a 9 on the dice youd get 17 damage.
The other metamagic feat would not change how empower interacts with the spell.
Okay, so, I'm making a Dragon Disciple for an 11th level game, and I decided to get some rods of Empower Metamagic, as well as Intensify metamagic.
So, here's the deal.
How does Empower stack with spells like, say, Scorching Ray? I've got 11 caster levels, so I get 3 scorching rays. Do I add an extra ray? (The effect depends on level, so it could be considered "variable", which would give me an extra ray). I know I would deal an extra 2d6 damage per ray.
All VARIABLE numeric effects. When they say variable they mean dice, things subject to random chance. Since there's no die roll for how many rays you get (its set in stone by your level) empower doesn't help.
it is however a whallop of a scorching ray though.
For Empower you increase any numbers produced from the Randomized portion of the spell by 50% so a level 5 shocking grasp, would do 5d6 for 14 points and then you would add 7 (50% of the rolled 14)
it doesnt increase the non random portion, so a level 9 magic missile empowered would be 5d4 (+ 50%) +5 so if you rolled a 9 on the dice youd get 17 damage.
The other metamagic feat would not change how empower interacts with the spell.
it does increase the +1 on magic missiles. The 1d4+1 is the variable. (from 2 to 5)
Okay, so, I'm making a Dragon Disciple for an 11th level game, and I decided to get some rods of Empower Metamagic, as well as Intensify metamagic.
So, here's the deal.
How does Empower stack with spells like, say, Scorching Ray? I've got 11 caster levels, so I get 3 scorching rays. Do I add an extra ray? (The effect depends on level, so it could be considered "variable", which would give me an extra ray). I know I would deal an extra 2d6 damage per ray.
Also, how do intensify and empower stack up? My thought would be that, at 11th level, an intensified, empowered Shocking Grasp would do 15d6 (10d6 intensified, 5 extra from empower), but would it instead end up doing 12d6? (2 extra from empower, 10 total from intensfy?)
Thanks for the help. Please understand that I'm not trying to be cheesy or anything. I just want a definite answer, as I can't seem to find one.
Also note, Scorching Ray doesn't do increased dmg by caster level...it does it in chunks, so it doesn't qualify for Intensify Spell.
There's questions on whether Magic Missile qualifies (1 missile per 2 levels is effectively the same as 2-5 dmg/2 levels), but basically, it's designed to enhance things like Fireballs and Lightning Bolts.
Shocking Grasp, Intensified would do 10d6 dmg at 10th level, it's new maximum. This number would then be Empowered to 15d6 dmg, which isn't all that different from any other 5th level spell.
==Aelryinth
it does increase the +1 on magic missiles. The 1d4+1 is the variable. (from 2 to 5)
That was the standard 3.X interpretation, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the PF Errata or FAQ it's specified that you only multiply the dice.
Also note, Scorching Ray doesn't do increased dmg by caster level...it does it in chunks, so it doesn't qualify for Intensify Spell.
There's questions on whether Magic Missile qualifies (1 missile per 2 levels is effectively the same as 2-5 dmg/2 levels), but basically, it's designed to enhance things like Fireballs and Lightning Bolts.
Shocking Grasp, Intensified would do 10d6 dmg at 10th level, it's new maximum. This number would then be Empowered to 15d6 dmg, which isn't all that different from any other 5th level spell.
==Aelryinth
a 10d6 damage spell Empowered does not do 15d6 damage. it does 10d6 damage and then has the results increased by 50%.
Secondly the wording on Empower states
"Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half."
a magic missile does 1d4 +1. the +1 is not a variable effect, yes it does produce a number between 2-5 but that doesnt change the +1 from being a static bonus.
A cure light wounds cast at level 5 heals 6 to 13 damage but if you empower it it heals 1d8x1.5 +5 damage.
a magic missile does 1d4 +1. the +1 is not a variable effect, yes it does produce a number between 2-5 but that doesnt change the +1 from being a static bonus.
whenever you multiply by an factor you do so after adding all the variables. You are multiplying the damage from the missles by 1.5, so you should add the +1 first..
but this wouldn't be the first time they had one math convention for one thing and another for something else.
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Thanks for all the replies guys.
First of all, I realize that Scorching ray wouldn't be affected by Intensify (Why would I want it to? it already does 12d6 total >_>).
As far as the Empower Metamagic is concerned, I assumed it worked the same way as critical hits (i.e., I don't remember if this is the case, but if you get a x3 crit with a greataxe, you do 3d12+str(1.5)(6)). Am I incorrect in this regard?
Additionally, it seems that the most discrepancy is arising over Empower, and whether or not it increases the the damage before or after the spell is cast (increase in static or increase in variable), though the argument for an Empowered Magic Missile does some to indicate that you would do it after, since you can't really find a die that functions as a 1/2 of a d4.
I did realize something looking up information on empower. In the 3.5 books they gave San example of how it works. But apparently that is no longer the case.
To the poster above me, you don't roll more dice. You increase the numbers produced by those dice by 50%
I disagree with the assessment of magic missile, but several people despite admitting the +1 is a static number still insist on increasing it.
But a level 9 MM should do 5d4x1.5 +5
As far as the Empower Metamagic is concerned, I assumed it worked the same way as critical hits (i.e., I don't remember if this is the case, but if you get a x3 crit with a greataxe, you do 3d12+str(1.5)(6)). Am I incorrect in this regard?
Without checking your math, you're correct that crits multiply the bonuses, too.
In 3.0/3.5 the standard ruling/assumption seemed to be that Empower did, too; I swear for PF specifically I've seen something which makes me think its designers went out of their way to reverse that and make it just dice, not bonuses.
I can't find it now, but I swear it's out there somewhere -- I remember being struck by it as an odd choice.
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Well, I wish I could edit my last post, but I don't know why I multiplied strength by a total of x9 than by multiplying it by a total of x4.5. Silly me, I suppose.
Well, the general consensus seems to be, from my looking at other posts and threads I could find, that the variable portion of the spell is the only part of it which gets affected (i.e., Variable, Numeric does not equal Variable AND Numeric). Really, though, I feel like the intent is to increase the dice damage, and not the final result damage.
So, a 5d6 fireball would deal an extra 2d6 damage, not an extra 50% of any number between 5-30. Mathematically, it seems like the two would be roughly equivalent, so I suppose at that point it basically becomes an argument of semantics. I think I'm going to stick with the 50% increase to damage die interpretation. If anyone can come up with a firm ruling as to whether or not static bonuses are included, or whether or not the 50% bonus is applied before or after rolling, please let me know.
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Thanks for all the replies guys.
First of all, I realize that Scorching ray wouldn't be affected by Intensify (Why would I want it to? it already does 12d6 total >_>).
As far as the Empower Metamagic is concerned, I assumed it worked the same way as critical hits (i.e., I don't remember if this is the case, but if you get a x3 crit with a greataxe, you do 3d12+str(1.5)(6)). Am I incorrect in this regard?
Additionally, it seems that the most discrepancy is arising over Empower, and whether or not it increases the the damage before or after the spell is cast (increase in static or increase in variable), though the argument for an Empowered Magic Missile does some to indicate that you would do it after, since you can't really find a die that functions as a 1/2 of a d4.
the way that we have played it works fine for magic missile
you would roll the damage dice for the missiles, add 50% of that value to the total and then add any static bonuses.
For example, Magic Missile cast by a 5th level caster would normally be this:
3d4+3 (if you target all missiles at the same target)
If Empowered it would be this:
(3d4+50%)+3 rounding down as per normal.
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the way that we have played it works fine for magic missile
you would roll the damage dice for the missiles, add 50% of that value to the total and then add any static bonuses.
For example, Magic Missile cast by a 5th level caster would normally be this:
3d4+3 (if you target all missiles at the same target)
If Empowered it would be this:
(3d4+50%)+3 rounding down as per normal.
Yeah, and I think most people can agree on that. I just like doing the extra 50% in d6's for other spells because I like rolling big-ol' fistfuls of damage :D
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Yeah, and I think most people can agree on that. I just like doing the extra 50% in d6's for other spells because I like rolling big-ol' fistfuls of damage :D
the way that we have played it works fine for magic missile
you would roll the damage dice for the missiles, add 50% of that value to the total and then add any static bonuses.
For example, Magic Missile cast by a 5th level caster would normally be this:
3d4+3 (if you target all missiles at the same target)
If Empowered it would be this:
(3d4+50%)+3 rounding down as per normal.
So, you just have to find some 2 sided dice:
Well, I wish I could edit my last post, but I don't know why I multiplied strength by a total of x9 than by multiplying it by a total of x4.5. Silly me, I suppose.
Well, the general consensus seems to be, from my looking at other posts and threads I could find, that the variable portion of the spell is the only part of it which gets affected (i.e., Variable, Numeric does not equal Variable AND Numeric). Really, though, I feel like the intent is to increase the dice damage, and not the final result damage.
So, a 5d6 fireball would deal an extra 2d6 damage, not an extra 50% of any number between 5-30. Mathematically, it seems like the two would be roughly equivalent, so I suppose at that point it basically becomes an argument of semantics. I think I'm going to stick with the 50% increase to damage die interpretation. If anyone can come up with a firm ruling as to whether or not static bonuses are included, or whether or not the 50% bonus is applied before or after rolling, please let me know.
I realized after my last post that I was insisting it was do e the other way be ause that was how hey did it in 3.5 I am sure one of the older rulebooks gave an example of how it worked.
But the wording on the pfsrdmand the d20 srd is the same. So I honestly am not sure now.
Generally speaking, in the past spell damage has been treated just like weapon damage...if there's a fixed bonus you include it, if there's a dice bonus you add it afterwards.
So, using 3.5 examples, a Scorching Ray at level 11 with the following:
Empower (+50%)
Searing Spell (+2 hp/spell level)
Fiery Spell (+1 Hp/die fire dmg)
+ Warmage's Edge (+10)
Banespell (+2d6 vs Baned Enemy)
Would end up doing ((12d6 +4 +12 +10) x 1.5) +2d6.
However, 'all numeric, variable effects of a spell' certainly includes Banespell style dmg, so that might actually get increased, too!
So you could end up with 14d6 +26, all x 1.5. BOOM.
PF took away a lot of the dmg increasing feats, of course, but one can still dream!
==Aelryinth