Just take weapon as your divine bond instead of mount. Any paladin has that choice unless an archetype alters divine bond, so no archetype is required. For archetype I would take Oath of Vengeance. You give up channel energy for the ability to use two lay on hands for extra smite evil.
Tempered Champion could work and stacks with Oath of Vengeance. But before you do you might want to check some of the spells you are giving up. Bless Weapon is a 1st level spell and makes it so that any critical threat is automatically confirmed on an evil creature. It does not stack with magical effects related to critical hits but will work with the feat improved critical. Litany of righteousness is a second level spell that can be cast as a swift action that deals double damage vs an evil creature. Hero’s Defiance is also a 1st level spell that can be cast as an immediate action that allows you to use a lay on hands to heal the damage of an attack that reduces you to 0 or fewer HP. This literally be a life saver.
If you go oath of vengeance extra lay on hands will get you more smite evil. Each time you take the feat (after 4th level) allows you one extra smite evil.
Furious Focus would also be good. When you are smiting evil the first attack get double your level to damage. Not taking the penalty to hit on that strike means it is more likely to hit, and you are more likely to confirm the critical hit if you roll a threat.
Since you will be using the Katana two handed that means you will not be using a shield. Feats that boost your AC especially your touch AC would also be useful. Dodge only gives you a +1 to AC, but also boost your touch AC. That is going to be useful vs incorporeal undead.
Yay Paladins, congratulations on choosing the best class ;)
From what you've said either Tempered Champion or an Oath of Vengeance Paladin sounds right to me. Probably Oath of Vengeance.
Another option if you want to build a divine damage dealer is the WARPRIEST. They're 3/4 BAB and 6/6 casters, but they get nearly as many bonus feats as a Fighter and can self-buff better than pretty much anyone. There's even a PALADIN THEMED ARCHETYPE if you still want to Smite your enemies. I'm not saying Warptiest is better, it's just a different way of achieving something similar.
Regarding your Katana, do you want to use it as a low-damage NODACHI or do you actually want to be able to wield it in 1 hand? If you do then you'll need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana. The easiest ways to do this on a Paladin are to take it as a feat or to be a HALF ELF and take the Ancestral Arms alternative racial trait. Either way it's a pretty good weapon, so if it fits your theme but you don't have the extra feat to spare don't feel like you have to completely min-max everything.
One Paladin specific spell I want to point out to you is BLESS WEAPON. It has a bunch of tect about making your weapon magical, but we're here to look at the last paragraph:
In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword.
This is actually a very powerful effect. It also gets more powerful against tougher enemies.
Normally when you threaten a critical hit you have to confirm that crit using the same attack modifier you used to attack. This has the effect of making every hit have the same chance of getting a crit, regardless of whether you're attacking at full BAB or -15 for your 4th attack . Whether you hit on a 2+ or a 15+ there will be a 15% chance that any hit will be a crit. Bless Weapon changes this math, it means the lower your chance to hit, the higher your chance that a hit will be a crit. If you're attacking a target and need an 18 to land a hit then every hit will automatically crit. This means against tougher enemies with higher AC it can drastically increase your damage output. Also, while it doesn't stack with a Keen or Vorpal weapon, or any spell effects that enhance your weapon's crit-range, it absolutely does stack with the Improved Critical feat. So your Katana can have auto-crits on a 15+, which means those attacks at -15BAB or attacks agsinst enemies with high AC are going to be a lot more threatening.
I bring that up because you specifically wanted to play a damage-dealing, high-crit Paladin. Playing a Tempered Champion would lock you out of that spell. I wouldn't say it's enough to make-or-break your choice of archetype, but I guess it's important to actually look through the Paladin's spells and see what you'd be giving up. Hell it's a level 1 spell so you could get it on a wand, but you'd still need to reliably hit a DC:20 UMD check to use it.
Ok back to feats. I'm surprised no one has mentioned FEY FOUNDLING yet. It doesn't help you kill stuff, but it gives your Lay on Hands a ~60% buff, which makes you almost unkillable. You'll obviously want Power Attack pretty early on and as I said you'll want Improved Critical if you want to make use of Bless Weapon . If you just want to wield a 2-handed weapon and hit hard that's all you really Need, but there are other feats that could be useful. Improved Initiative is useful on any character, Vital Strike will almost certainly come up at least once per combat. If you go with the Oath of Vengeance Paladin then EXTRA LAY ON HANDS is basically +1 Smite per day.
If you wanted to invest in the Intimidate skill then the CORNUGON SMASH plus HURTFUL combo could be great for a CHA-based character, just rember that you have Smite and LoH, both of which also compete for your swift actions. If you don't have swift actions to spare but still wanted to invest in Intimidate then FURIOUS FOCUS plus DREADFUL CARNAGE could be a good thing to aim for as well. It's worth noting that a non-Smiting Paladin doesn't quite compete with the other martial classes for accuracy as you don't have a built in bonus to hit besides Smite, so Furious Focus can actually be decent.
There are also some paladin specific feats. I quite like FEARLESS AURA, GREATER MERCY and ULTIMATE MERCY. None of them are really what you're looking for, but they're useful ... well, Ultimate Mercy is something that might never come up, so it's maybe not worth a feat, but if it Does come up you'll feel like an absolutr Boss!
Clearly we need to be buying more wands of Bless Weapon.
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Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Those are the general exceptions. Specific abilities will sometimes also specify this limitation for their bonuses.
Divine Favor doesn't fit one of those exceptions, so would be multiplied by default.
The first thing most people think of when you mention paladin is smite evil. While smite evil is incredibly powerful it is also fairly limited. Obviously, it only works on evil and is also a limited resource. Because of this paladins tend to be excel at killing incredibly powerful foes, but don’t do as well vs a large number of less powerful creatures. That is not to say they are useless in those situations. They are still a full BAB class that deals good damage when using a two-handed weapon with power attack. The ranger or fighter do better vs the minions, but the paladin is the one to take out the boss.
What really makes the paladin powerful is not his offense, but rather his defenses. The paladin is likely to be the last character standing after a big fight. Paladins have some of the best saves in the game. They rarely fail a fortitude or will save, and their reflex saves tend to be about equal to a class that gets good reflex saves that does not max out DEX. At low level they get immunity to fear and disease and eventually gain immunity charms and compulsions. Lay on Hands is actually one of their best class abilities. With it the paladin become very difficult to take down. Not only is it the only effective in combat healing it is capable of condition removal.
One of the most interesting paladin build is the masochistic paladin. The idea of the masochistic paladin is that they soak up the attacks of their enemies, leaving the rest of the party undamaged. To do this they need to make themselves a target so that they get attacked. They then use their lay on hands to keep themselves in the fight. To accomplish this, they avoid having an extremely high AC and boost their lay on hands as much as they can. They don’t want to tank their AC because if they do even lay on hands will not be enough to keep up. They want to have an AC high enough that their opponents at least think they have a reasonable chance to hit, but not so low they get hit too much. Ideally their opponents have a chance to hit on the first attack, but the AC is high enough that they don’t get hit and latter attacks.
Fey Foundling is incredibly useful for this build and boarders on being required. They also need to be able to use lay on hands when wounded. If they are knocked out that will normally prevent them from using lay on hands. The spell Hero’s Defiance is an immediate action that will keep you couscous and able to act. A Half Orc paladin gets orc ferocity which allows them to function for 1 round when below 0 HP but not killed. This is enough to use Lay on Hands the next round. Going Half Orc also allows them to pick up Ferocious Resolve which gives them Ferocity ability which means they can continue fighting at negative HP. When choosing their mercies the masochist paladin should be taking mercies that remove condition that he is likely to be afflicted with in combat. Just make sure to take the staggered condition at 6th level. Once they get high enough level the only way to stop a half orc masochistic paladin is to kill them.
Try this for a quick idea of a build. Go with a half orc paladin with the oath of vengeance. Take the alternative racial trait Orc Atavism to get ferocity and +2 STR, take the -2 on WIS. For your first level feat take Fey Foundling (has to be taken at 1st level). At third pick up power attack. For your 5th and 7th level feats take extra lay on hands. Improved Critical will be your 9th level feat, and Furious Focus for your 11th. Try to get a bracer of the merciful knight to boost your lay on hands. Also pick up a belt of strength and a headband of charisma. At 12th level your will have 16 lay on hands each healing 8d6+16 points of damage. You will have 4 smite evil but can sacrifice 2 lay on hands for an extra smite evil.
For your mercies take enfeebled, fatigued, restorative, and staggered. The Enfeebled and Restorative are from the healer's handbook. Make sure to memorize at least one Hero’s Defiance.
Is a katana a must have? I ask because if your character will be using it as a two-handed weapon, a falchion is better... and it saves you a feat.
Don't give up spells, either. There are so many good ones out there, and frankly they trump the feats you'd get from Tempered Champion. Divine Favor, for example, keeps the Paladin on pace ahead of the Fighter's weapon training bonuses through 13th level. Blade Tutor's Spirit almost negates the penalties of Power Attack. Then you have Righteous Vigor, which gives you attack more bonuses and temp HP. Charging? Saddle Surge gives you a hefty damage bonus for when you charge. If you plan your spell uses ahead of time, you should have absolutely no problem dealing with enemies whom you can't Smite.
For Traits, I highly recommend Magical Knack. It ensures you can maximize spells with level-dependent effects.
For feats, assuming a human character, I would go with:
1. Fey Foundling and Noble Scion (War), which allows you to use your Charisma for Initiative.
3. Power Attack.
5. Unsanctioned Knowledge. You gain access to four bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spells. If you're still worried about how much damage you dish out, make Divine Power one of those, so by 13th level you're hasted and have better attack and damage bonuses than a Fighter would get from Weapon Training at the same level. It solves your smite issues.
7. Improved Sunder, because smashing enemy weapons to bits is fun, but mostly because ...
9. ... Smite Evil Magic has Improved Sunder as a prerequisite and sundering spell effects cast by evil creatures is mega.
11. Divine Interference. You sacrifice a single spell slot, but it forces your opponent to re-roll. You're not worried about them missing with the re-roll; it's your Get Out of Jail Free card, to cancel a critical hit.
13. Deific Obedience.
15. Diverse Obedience, so you can get access to Sentinel Boons. Then, if you pick Iomedae as your deity, you get an extra smite per day AND force them to make a Will saving throw or be stunned.
Don't worry about Improved Critical. Use your Divine Bond to make your weapon Keen.
I don't feel the falchion is meaningfully "better". Both can be used 2 handed with martial proficiency.
Falchion:
*Does .5 more damage on average.
Katana:
*Lighter
*Cheaper
*Has the deadly property
*Is a katana
Note: If I were to pick an exotic weapon just for mechanics, I'd go with the falcata. The math on 19-20/x3 is better than it sounds. Most exotic weapons only give an extra .5 to 1.5 per swing, which is going to be unnoticed for anything other than flavor most of the time. But I 100% support making flavor-based choices. If you think katanas are cool, so you have a katana: then you're playing the game right.
The falchion is a better weapon in that it doesn't require a feat expenditure. But, to be fair, that only matters if wielding the katana one-handed was ever going to be a consideration. As that doesn't appear to be the case, I happily concede my point.
And of course flavor trumps everything. No disagreement there.
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Why not use a nodachi? The martial, two handed version of the katanna?
Using a Katana two handed does not require feat for a character with martial weapon proficiency. You only need the exotic weapon proficiency to use it one handed. The damage is similar with the falchion tending to roll more consistent damage, vs the Katana having a better chance of rolling both higher and lower damage. The katana has a 12.5% chance of rolling any number between 1 and 8. The falchion has a bell cure with a 6.25% chance of rolling either 2 or 8.
Fey Foundling is worth it, but I would not waste a feat boosting my initiative. This character will probably be maxing out STR not CHA. He will also probably have a DEX of at least 12. Assuming he has a 14 CHA Noble Scion will only boost his initiate by +1 until he gets a headband of CHA. Even then it only gains him a +4 bonus above normal. If he is worried about initiative Improved initiative gives him the +4 bonus at 1st level without the need of the headband. He is better off starting with power attack. That also allows him to pick up the feats that have power attack as a prerequisite 2 levels earlier.
I agree about trading out spells but would not bother with Unsanctioned Knowledge. Unsanctioned Knowledge has a prerequisite of 13 INT, and the character is already pretty MAD. He needs a high STR to take advantage for combat. He needs good CON and CHA for HP and class abilities. He will want at least 12 DEX for AC and reflex saves. That makes getting the 13 INT difficult. He could dump WIS, but would probably be better of boosting CHA instead of INT.
The paladins spell list also has some very useful spells, so they don’t really need to use spells of other lists. At first level bless weapon and Hero’s Defiance are incredibly useful. For 4th level spells you have Dimensional Blade and Forceful Strike, both are swift actions to cast. Dimensional Blade makes all your attacks touch attacks for 1 round, that almost guarantees all your attacks will hit. Forceful Strike adds 10d4 of force damage to your hit and has a chance of knocking the knocking the target back.
Improved critical is a good feat for a spell casting paladin. As both MrCharisma and I mentioned bless weapon does not work with keen but does work with improved critical. With improved critical his chance of threating a critical is 30%. Being able to automatically confirm those threats will increase the damage considerably. Bless weapon last for 1 minute per level so will usually last through an entire combat. This spell will really help when the character is fighting lots of minions. Smite evil works great vs. the boss, but not that well against his minions. This spell more than any other will allow the character to do what the OP wants.
I don't know whether the OP is rolling stats, or doing a point buy... and whether their point buy would be Epic, High, or Standard Fantasy.
That being said, I would not buy a Dexterity of 12 if it meant limiting Charisma to 14. Dexterity 12 gives you a +1 to AC, +1 to ranged attacks (which isn't a focus point here), +1 to reflex saves, and +1 to initiative. If Dexterity 10 is the price (or part of the price) of getting Charisma 16, then the net saving throw gain by 2nd level (because besides making up the Reflex loss you also bump your Fortitude and Will saves) is worth it. If you take Noble Scion, your Initiative is also covered. And when you're Smiting, your attacks and AC also benefit. If you keep boosting Charisma across your career, the gain is far greater than the initial marginal investment in Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. Yes, even Constitution, because Charisma directly dictates how often you can perform swift action healing on yourself--and that amount will always be greater than the extra HP a slightly higher Constitution would have provided.
Mileage will of course vary, but access to certain non-Paladin spells is absolutely worth more than a marginal +1 from one or even two other ability scores. Deivon's Parry allows you to negate an attack as an immediate action, while Windy Escape negates a crit as an immediate action. Wrath is a single-target Divine Favor and an upgrade to Bless Weapon, rolled into one--and if you have the time to cast both, W and DF stack with each other. Mirror Image and Displacement make AC a secondary consideration. Haste, if not Divine Power, are worth their weight in gold. Heroism gives you attack and saving throw benefits beyond what you would get had you allocated points to other ability scores. Then there's Dance of a Hundred Cuts, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility Purge... the list goes on. Bottom line, it's not just a matter of getting more than a narrow +1 or even +2 bonus from a given ability score; any for of those spells grants the Paladin capabilities he could not normally count on having access to (on his own).
And, it should go without saying that, the more you invest in your Paladin's Charisma (and in low-cost items like Pearls of Power), the more you get to tap into both your normal Spell List and the shiny new toys you got.
It's with that in mind that I argue that Bless Weapon, while great in a vacuum, is trumped by the options out there.
The top priority for this build is getting an 18 STR, not a 16 CHA. Getting both a 18 STR and 16 CHA is going to be difficult. They will also want at least a 14 CON. On a 20 point by the only way to do that would be to have a race with a +2 STR bonus and dump both WIS and INT. Because of the increasing cost on a stat over 13 the 12 or 13 in DEX gives the best bang for the buck.
Both Divine Favor and Wrath have a casting time of 1 action. That means to get both of them up you are not attacking for 2 turns. At low level giving up 2 turns of attacks for a+2 bonus to hit and damage is not worth it. By the time you are high enough level to get + a higher bonus you are getting iterative attack so are sacrificing even more. At caster level 9 (with magical knack) when you get the max benefit you are 1 level away from your third attack. Sacrificing 6 attacks for a +6 to hit and damage is simply not worth it.
There are a decent number of spells on the paladins list that can be cast as an immediate or swift action. This allows the paladin to still get a full attack while casting his spell. It also eliminates the need to make a concentration roll to avoid provoking an AoO.
Paladins do not get a lot of even at high level, nor do they get a lot of feats. Spending feats to boost spell casting is not using your feats wisely.
By the way Oath of Vengeance gives you Wrath and Blessing of Fervor. Blessing of Fervor can give you an extra attack like Haste. So, if he takes that archetype, he can already stack Divine Favor and Wrath and can get the benefit of haste without unsanctioned knowledge.
I understand what you're arguing for, Mysterious Stranger, but I disagree with those priorities. I think they at best hold true for the first 3-4 levels. Past that point, that extra +1 or +2 Strength bonus progressively drops off to the benefits of Charisma outlined above.
With respect, your argument also assumes that there won't be an opportunity to cast a spell before entering into combat--which in effect assumes the party will enter every fight in part unprepared. It likewise assumes the Paladin will be able to enter melee on round 1 (or that his enemies will). Of course there shouldn't be an assumption that a party WILL be able to cast one or more longer-duration spells prior to every fight, but there simply are too many variables to argue that a Paladin casting a standard action spell comes at the expense of 1 or more attacks.
Of course, I don't disagree where the Oath of Vengeance Paladin's viability is concerned. But that's a specialized path and, again, there are far more options that Unsanctioned Knowledge offers than just Wrath and Divine Power... to include immediate and swift action spells.
As for feats, while the Paladin is limited in that department, the argument could be made that there is a dearth of class-specific feats for a mount-less Paladin. Mileage will of course vary where most combat feats are concerned (depending on the flavor one goes for), but I struggle to think of any that give you the combat options and utility Unsanctioned Knowledge provides.
Bless weapon last for 1 minute per level so will usually last through an entire combat. This spell will really help when the character is fighting lots of minions. Smite evil works great vs. the boss, but not that well against his minions. This spell more than any other will allow the character to do what the OP wants.
This is worth noting. Paladins are probably the best boss-killing class in the game, but against mooks they're more of a damage-soak than a damage-dealer.
Bless weapon is one way of dealing with this, but I also think that's where the Weapon Divine Bond comes in. Once you hit level 9 you have 2 Divine Bonds and 3 Smites per day. You should be able to get either a Smite or a Divine Bond each combat. Smite is obviously much better vs bosses, but Divine Bond will give you a smaller bonus that works against everything. Between that and Bless Weapon you should have a good amount of combat bonuses even against hoards of smaller enemies, which is not really the Paladin's shtick.
My advice is based on what the OP wants to play. He specifically stated he wants to play a paladin who deals heavy damage with smite evil with a high crit weapon and prefers using a paladin. He is willing to give up anything besides CHA to saves and smite evil to accomplish that. The best way to achieve that is with the Oath of Vengeance archetype. Besides giving extra uses of smite evil the archetype also adds spells to the paladins list. The spells it adds are Wrath, Confess, Blessing of Fervor, and Orders Wrath.
The paladins spell list already has a huge number of spells that are useful for this build. At 1st level you have bless weapon, challenge evil, divine favor, hero’s defiance, protection from evil, and wrath. 2nd level gives you blade tutors spirit, bull’s strength, eagle’s splendor, fire of entanglement, iron skin, litany of righteousness. 3rd level gives angelic aspect, blessing of fervor. Blessing of Fervor is incredibly useful for this build. It gives the character a choice of 5 different benefits that can be changed from round to round. One of those benefits is the abilities is to gain and extra attack per round. That flexibility is much better than Haste and will be the go-to 3rd level spell. 4th level spells include greater angelic aspect, banishing blade, crusaders edge, dimensional blade, and holy sword. These are just a few of the spell that are combat focused. The paladin spell list has more than enough spells without the need to spend a feat to gain 4 more from other classes.
The question is not is CHA or DEX more important to the paladin, CHA is obviously more important. Whether STR or CHA is more important is also not the issue. What is the issue is DEX more important than INT to the paladin. Paladins need good stats in STR, CHA and CON. CON is important because even if the paladin can use lay on hands to heal, they need a pool of HP high enough to survive the hit. A dead paladin cannot heal themselves. Other than skill points and qualifying for unsanctioned knowledge INT does nothing for a paladin. DEX on the other hand gives AC, Reflex saves, initiative and bonus on a few skills.
Dealing with minions is where a lot of the paladin's other class abilities are the most useful. Between divine bond, spells and his defenses the paladin can significantly boost their effectiveness vs large numbers. Other Martials still have an advantage in that respect but the paladin is able to make significant contributions to the party. A paladin casting Blessing of Fervor, then bless weapon will automatically confirm critical hits for 2 minutes per caster level and get an extra attack for his caster level -1 rounds.
This is worth noting. Paladins are probably the best boss-killing class in the game, but against mooks they're more of a damage-soak than a damage-dealer.
Do you mean this within the context of the Paladin alone, or compared to other Martial classes? Unless one assumes the Paladin doesn't take Power Attack and/or is consistently unable to utilize his spellcasting, Divine Favor alone keeps him on par with the Fighter's Weapon Training until 17th level.
You should be able to get either a Smite or a Divine Bond each combat. Smite is obviously much better vs bosses, but Divine Bond will give you a smaller bonus that works against everything. Between that and Bless Weapon you should have a good amount of combat bonuses even against hoards of smaller enemies, which is not really the Paladin's shtick.
This is kind of a situational issue, and the answer will ultimately come down to how many encounters a given table has within an in-scenario day/night period. Depending on the GM's/party's cadence, a Paladin may not have to choose between Divine Bond, Smite Evil, and spells. Rather, it may be a matter of pre-combat preparation, or in-combat action economy. In any case, a 9th level Paladin should have 3-4 1st-level spells and 2 2nd level spells. Between those, Divine Bond, and Power Attack, a Paladin should have no problem dealing at least as much damage as other Martial classes.
... The best way to achieve that is with the Oath of Vengeance archetype.
The value of an Oath of Vengeance is not up for debate.
The paladin spell list has more than enough spells without the need to spend a feat to gain 4 more from other classes.
That is true, if the only thing you're looking at is more of the same.
What is the issue is DEX more important than INT to the paladin. ... Other than skill points and qualifying for unsanctioned knowledge INT does nothing for a paladin.
It's not more important, because that's not what you're getting with your 13 INT. With a 12 DEX, you're getting A +1 bonus to a single saving throw, AC, Initiative, and Dex-related skills. That's it. That is objectively not as good as access to four spells that do things the Paladin normally cannot do.
CON is important because even if the paladin can use lay on hands to heal, they need a pool of HP high enough to survive the hit. A dead paladin cannot heal themselves.
I guess I would ask what CON you envision said Paladin having at 1st level, and whether or not you're putting his favored class bonus into HP as well.
Other Martials still have an advantage in that respect ...
Sure, Fighters and Rangers come built in with more room for versatility, but I don't think their core classes necessarily offer more accuracy or damage in melee combat (archetypes obviously vary).
This is worth noting. Paladins are probably the best boss-killing class in the game, but against mooks they're more of a damage-soak than a damage-dealer.Do you mean this within the context of the Paladin alone, or compared to other Martial classes? Unless one assumes the Paladin doesn't take Power Attack and/or is consistently unable to utilize his spellcasting, Divine Favor alone keeps him on par with the Fighter's Weapon Training until 17th level.
Are you taking Advanced Weapon Training into account? Also Gloves of Dueling are fairly affordable by mid-levels. Self-healing is the thing that really sets the Paladin apart. It's not like paladins are worthless outside of Smite, but it also sounds like you are really underestimating what a fighter can do.
Paladin’s spells are very useful, but they are a limited resource that they get late in the game and do not really get that many. A 15th level paladin with a 20 CHA gets 5 1st level spells,3 2nd level spells,3 3rd level spells, and 2 4th level spells. The paladin will have a caster level of 12 at this point but can boost it to 14 with magical knack. Since most campaigns rarely go higher than this, that is about as high as a paladin is likely to get in spell casting.
Due to the paladin only getting 4t level spells they often get early access to a lot of spells. For Example, Greater Angelic Aspect is a 4th level paladin spell, but a cleric gets it as an 8th level spell. Blessing of Fervor is normally a 4th level cleric spell, but this character will get it as a 3rd level spell. The early access to certain spells is one of the things that make their spell casting so powerful. The paladin’s spell list also has a lot of paladin only spells that can be cast as immediate or swift actions. This allows the paladin to cast the spell and still attack.
Unsanctioned Knowledge gives 1 spell per level from other casters lists. When I look in Hero Labs the paladin has about 60 4th level spells. Now many of them are highly situational but there are enough spells on the list that the paladin will always be able to find more than2 useful 4th level spells. The same is true with every spell level. The weakest spell level is actually 3rd, but this character gets Blessing of Fervor added to his spell list.
Smite Evil does more than just give a bonus to hit and damage. It also ignores all DR which means it does full damage to any evil creature. How many 1st level characters can damage a pit fiend? The deflection bonus to AC also needs to be factored in. Since it is a deflection bonus it also works vs touch or incorporeal attacks. This is usually a weakness for the paladin. Those things along with the bonus to hit and damage are what makes the paladin stand out as a boss killer.
Vs the mooks the paladin is not useless; he is just not as effective as other classes that have constant bonuses or other abilities. In all honesty this was something that is deliberately done to balance the class. While they can use things like spells and divine bond to boost their abilities other classes have and deserve their own strengths. The extra feats the fighter gets allow them to pick up feat chains that a paladin cannot hope to get until much higher level if at all. The rangers favored bonus works all the time and they have their own spells that can boost their combat abilities.
DEX improves the paladins worst saving throw, it also boosts his touch AC which is important when fighting incorporeal undead. This character will also not be using a shield so that is one less way to raise his AC. Paladins are also pretty feat starved to begin with. Spending a feat to add 4 spells to his spell list is not a good investment. A better use of the feat would be to take extra lay on hands. That would allow the character an extra smite evil. That would be a lot more useful.
Are you taking Advanced Weapon Training into account? Also Gloves of Dueling are fairly affordable by mid-levels. Self-healing is the thing that really sets the Paladin apart. It's not like paladins are worthless outside of Smite, but it also sounds like you are really underestimating what a fighter can do.
I don't think I'm underestimating the Fighter so much as I don't think damage output is what sets him apart from the Paladin. The Advanced Weapon Training options certainly make the Fighter even more versatile, but in terms of damage output? Focused Weapon helps a Fighter with a light or one-handed weapon keep pace with a two-handed weapon wielder (and finally puts him ahead at 20th level). Trained Grace and Trained Throw both provide a decent damage bonus, but it's within the context of the Fighter having less of a damage bonus from Strength to begin with.
Yes, Gloves of Dueling are great. At the same time, the Paladin's Divine Bond can provide an average of 3.5 (fire) to 7 (axiomatic or holy) points of damage per hit against the right opponents, at no additional cost.
Warrior Spirit takes a standard action to activate, but you can give yourself bane for 1 minute, tailored to the group of enemies you are fighting. That ability is pretty amazing in general once you know a few of the choice magic weapon options.
Fighter's Tactics gives you solo teamwork feats, like an inquisitor.
Focused Weapon is nice, but at low levels it's only tempting for a niche weapon build, like whips.
Effortless Dual Wielding lets you dual wield two one-handed weapons, like dual whips.
And of course, all of those extra combat feats add up.
Paladin’s spells are very useful, but they are a limited resource that they get late in the game and do not really get that many. A 15th level paladin with a 20 CHA gets 5 1st level spells,3 2nd level spells,3 3rd level spells, and 2 4th level spells.
I really don't agree with this. To begin with, Paladins first get their spells at 4th level. A 9th level Paladin should have 3-4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells. Even if we accept that Charisma must be a secondary score, that number should suffice under most circumstances, table variances notwithstanding.
Unsanctioned Knowledge gives 1 spell per level from other casters lists. When I look in Hero Labs the paladin has about 60 4th level spells. Now many of them are highly situational but there are enough spells on the list that the paladin will always be able to find more than2 useful 4th level spells. The same is true with every spell level. The weakest spell level is actually 3rd, but this character gets Blessing of Fervor added to his spell list.
It's not a question if being able to find two good spells in the entire list of 4th level Paladin spells. It's a question of whether there are spells out there that can (A) make your Paladin even better at what he does and/or (B) allow him to do something he normally couldn't do.
Vs the mooks the paladin is not useless; he is just not as effective as other classes that have constant bonuses or other abilities. ... The extra feats the fighter gets allow them to pick up feat chains that a paladin cannot hope to get until much higher level if at all. The rangers favored bonus works all the time and they have their own spells that can boost their combat abilities.
These are three different things, though. Again, the constant bonuses argument is contingent on the Paladin not having access to his own bonuses--or not having enough access to them across the standard day. The Ranger's favored enemy bonus is, in its own way, even more limited than the Paladin's Smite Evil. What's more likely at 9th level? That you'll run into two specific types of enemies, or evil enemies?
DEX improves the paladins worst saving throw, it also boosts his touch AC which is important when fighting incorporeal undead. This character will also not be using a shield so that is one less way to raise his AC. Paladins are also pretty feat starved to begin with. Spending a feat to add 4 spells to his spell list is not a good investment. A better use of the feat would be to take extra lay on hands. That would allow the character an extra smite evil. That would be a lot more useful.
With respect, I just can't get on board with the idea that a 5% bump to your save and making it more difficult for an opponent to hit is more important than, e.g., negating a critical 1/day (or more, depending on frequency of encounters), forcing opponents to miss 50% of the time on a round/level basis, etc.
Meanwhile, not reducing your Charisma directly boosts ALL the Paladin's saving throw AND gives him extra Lay on Hand.
Anyways, I appreciate that we're probably firmly into Circular Argument Mode now. :D
Are you taking Advanced Weapon Training into account? Also Gloves of Dueling are fairly affordable by mid-levels. Self-healing is the thing that really sets the Paladin apart. It's not like paladins are worthless outside of Smite, but it also sounds like you are really underestimating what a fighter can do.This is worth noting. Paladins are probably the best boss-killing class in the game, but against mooks they're more of a damage-soak than a damage-dealer.Do you mean this within the context of the Paladin alone, or compared to other Martial classes? Unless one assumes the Paladin doesn't take Power Attack and/or is consistently unable to utilize his spellcasting, Divine Favor alone keeps him on par with the Fighter's Weapon Training until 17th level.
What I was saying is that the base chassis of the Paladin doesn't really help them deal damage. Smite is an Incredible damage buff, but it only works vs a single target, and you can only use it a few times per day. If you're not in a combat with 1 big opponent then you need to think about what resources you want to spend to help you deal with a group of enemies.
Fighters get Weapon Training, Barbarians get rage, both of which are universal bonuses that work against anyone ... but Fighters also get Feats and Barbarians get Rage Powers. The difference between a Fighter and a Paladin at 9th level isn't just a +4 from Weapon Training, it's also a difference of 5 feats. You don't have to spend your extra feats on combat feats , but they can be, and they often are. This means that where a Paladin might be wielding a Scimitar the Fighter can be wielding 2 Falcatas with ITWF, Improved Critical, Critical Focus and Two Weapon Rend. Where a Paladin wields a polearm using Combat Reflexes and Power Attack the Fighter does the same but also adds Intimidating Prowess, Hurtful and Cleaving Finish for potentially 2 extra attacks per turn.
This doesn't mean the Paladin Can't deal with these groups, but the point is that you should plan for it. If you want to be a boss-killer you're fine, you have that built-in with Smite. If you want to be a tank you're fine, you have the best saves, some immunities and the best self-heal in the game. But if you want to kill hoards of reasonably-dangerous enemies you have to spend resources on that. Feats are a resource, Divine Bond is a resource, Spells are a resource. Paladins have all these things so they're part of the class too, but you have to choose them. Divine Favour is absolutely a good way to get a nice bonus vs a bunch of enemies , but it's a spell you have to prepare ahead of time, likely multiple times if you want to be prepared for encounters like that.
Sorry that got a bit wordy, but you get what I mean. The point isn't that Paladins can't do this, it's that you Can but you have to plan for it.
So, far I have not really seen any spell that really adds something that the paladins spell list cannot already do something similar to. Unless you are taking something like silent image, invisibility or charm person the paladin’s spell list can probably do something similar to what the other spell list cand do. And in all honesty those spells do not really seem to fit the paladin. Why bother with a spell that can negate critical hits once per day when you can have a spell that has a 50% chance of negating any critical hit or sneak attack for 1 minute per caster level? Paladin’s get Greater Shield of Fortification as a 3rd level spell.
The DEX vs INT to me is secondary to the fact that Unsanctioned Knowledge is a feat. In my opinion there are a lot of feats that are way better. Something like Smite Evil Magic would actually give the character the ability to do something that it normally cannot. He could also take Sundering Strike so that when he confirms a critical, he destroys the targets weapon. If he takes Critical Focus, he can take a critical feat to allow him to debuff the target. Staggering Critical seems like it would be a good option. Add Fey Foundling and he has used up all his feats up to 15th level. This is not even factoring in Extra Lay on Hands which would give him either 2 extra Lay on Hands, or 1 extra Smite Evil.
That would mean he has a critical hit range of 15-20 and if he confirms the hit in addition to dealing damage, he sunders the targets weapon, and the target is staggered for up to a minimum of 1 round if he makes the save and up to 5 if he fails the save. Bless weapon would mean that any critical threat on an evil opponent is automatically confirmed therefore triggering the other feats.
I have to say this thread has been fun. Paladins are a great class and many people underestimate them. Hearing different views is nice even when I might not agree with them.
So, far I have not really seen any spell that really adds something that the paladins spell list cannot already do something similar to.
I don't have a lot of skin in this argument, but you can find good things there if you look.
Take from the Bard list:
- HEIGHTENED AWARENESS is one of my favourite 1st level spells. It gives a bonus to Perception and Knowledge checks that stacks with other common bonuses, and you can dismiss this spell for a +4 to Initiative - which is fine because it's a 1st level spell and you can re-cast it. It's also a Personal range spell so your party can't cast it on you.
- HEROISM is a standard for everyone, and getting it as a 2nd level spell is great. Oh yeah and this is the "other common bonuses" I was talking about with Heightened Awareness, yes they stack.
- LESSER GEAS ... I'm actually surprised this wasn't on the Paladin's spell list already. This fits the Paladin perfectly.
- DIMENSION DOOR. I didn't look very hard for this, there are probably other options more suited to a Paladin but this spell is pretty useful for anyone.
Now I'm sure there are other spells that can give bonuses, but these are still strong options. Between Heightened Awareness and Heroism alone you have a +4 for Knowledge, Perception and Initiative rolls, and a +2 to basically all other d20 rolls. These last 10 minutes per level as well, so while Paladins might be able to get similar bonuses I'm not sure they could get them so consistently, and without spending in-combat actions. That's pretty good for 1 feat, and that's just the level 1 and 2 spells. So if getting 13 INT is reasonably within your grasp it could be worth it.
Anyway I also do understand that INT is often a Paladin's best dump stat. 13 INT might not be 3 build-points, it could be 7, and that's a steeper price to pay. On top of that, as you said there are other spells worth casting. So while I think it's a good feat, I don't think it's a feat every Paladin needs.
Those spells are much better than anything that has been suggested so far and do actually allow the paladin to do something they cannot already do. Heroism is probably the best option on the list as it boosts both combat and non-combat abilities. The question is, are those spells worth giving up staggering critical or smite evil magic?
For this character I don’t think they are. The OP stated he wanted to focus on critical hits with the katana, and was willing to give up any class features except smite evil and divine grace. It was suggested that he take tempered champion and give up spells for extra feats. Many of the people in the thread agree that this is a mistake as the paladin’s spells would actually be better at boosting his combat abilities than the feats would be.
If you really want to increase the magic a paladin can access a better way would be to take the trait dangerously curious and skill focus UMD and max out UMD. This would allow the paladin to use wands and scrolls to cast spell.
The other thing to look at is does the paladin have other ways to access those spells. Heroism is available through a potion.
Sorry that got a bit wordy, but you get what I mean. The point isn't that Paladins can't do this, it's that you Can but you have to plan for it.
I appreciate wordiness... and agree with your conclusion!
So, far I have not really seen any spell that really adds something that the paladins spell list cannot already do something similar to.
What spell does the Paladin have that is really equivalent to, off the top of my head, Windy Escape, Mirror Image, Displacement, or Freedom of Movement?
Now, I will be the first to acknowledge that not every spell on a non-Paladin spell list will fit every Paladin, but my larger point here is that there are so many options... and this goes hand in hand with the sheer diversity found in the Paladin's various Archetypes and Oaths. With that in mind, while I am definitely bringing up non-standard spells as examples, we are--to be fair--talking about options for a fairly non-standard Paladin.
Why bother with a spell that can negate critical hits once per day when you can have a spell that has a 50% chance of negating any critical hit or sneak attack for 1 minute per caster level? Paladin’s get Greater Shield of Fortification as a 3rd level spell.
Because Paladins get even less 3rd level spells than they get 1st level ones, and Windy Escape is both an immediate action and essentially guaranteed to work.
(That said if one were to take Unsanctioned Knowledge and choose that spell as one of their four, I would drop Divine Interference from my proposed feat list.)
In my opinion there are a lot of feats that are way better. Something like Smite Evil Magic would actually give the character the ability to do something that it normally cannot.
I'm completely on board with Smite Evil Magic (and Improved Sunder, to make it viable), as per my earlier proposal.
He could also take Sundering Strike so that when he confirms a critical, he destroys the targets weapon.
Makes complete sense.
If he takes Critical Focus, he can take a critical feat to allow him to debuff the target. Staggering Critical seems like it would be a good option.
I'm honestly not a fan of Critical Focus. I don't feel like I've ever gotten meaningful mileage from it with Martial classes. And I hate feats that force a Fort save. At 11th level, when the Paladin will get this, enemies of the equivalent level will succeed 55-70% of the time--and it only gets worse from there. But... to be fair in a fair and perfect world that knowledge wouldn't influence feat selection.
Add Fey Foundling and he has used up all his feats up to 15th level. This is not even factoring in Extra Lay on Hands which would give him either 2 extra Lay on Hands, or 1 extra Smite Evil.
Even taking into account Extra Lay on Hands, Improved Sunder, and Power Attack, however, you've only accounted for 7 out of 8 the feats available to a 15th level Paladin.
That would mean he has a critical hit range of 15-20 ...
Something to consider here is that to get that range you're either buying Improved Critical (which bumps back Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, and Sundering Strike) or you're giving up on Bless Weapon... which, ipso facto, frees up 1st level spell slots. ;)
I have to say this thread has been fun. Paladins are a great class and many people underestimate them. Hearing different views is nice even when I might not agree with them.
Absolutely! I hope I'm not coming off as combative or dismissive. I acknowledge that so much of what we're discussing/debating is really subjective stuff.
The feats I am suggesting are 1st Fey Foundling, 3rd Power Attack, 5 Improved Sunder, 7th Smite Evil Magic, 9th Improved Critical, 11th Sundering Strike, 13 Critical Focus, 15 Staggering Strike.
The save on Staggering Strike reduces the duration to 1 round, so even if they save, they still gain the staggered condition for a round. Critical Focus might be a feat tax, but in this case it is worth it. While using the Katana the character has a 30% chance to threaten a critical hit. When he does confirm a critical hit, he gets a sunder on his opponent weapon and his opponent is staggered for a minimum of 1 round. With 3 attacks per round at this point that gives him about a 66% chance of threatening a critical. Critical Focus will actually be very useful because it will increase the chance of confirming the critical hit on second and third attacks.
This build focuses on the idea of denying the target the chance to attack. It does this by eliminating the weapon the target is using and denying the target the ability to get in a full attack. At 15th level it has a good chance of completely shutting down a target. If the targets weapon is destroyed and they are staggered they cannot attack in the round they draw a weapon. This also reduces the damage the character takes and the chance that he will take a critical hit at all. You cannot score a critical hit or do damage on an attack you do not make.
Improved critical is not a magic effect, so it works with bless weapon. Bless weapon specifies it does not work with magical effects related to critical hits, so it does not work with Keen. Bless Weapon makes my build even more powerful, because you don’t even need to roll to confirm the critical on an evil creature.