paizo.com Favorited Posts by tennengarpaizo.com Favorited Posts by tennengar2020-04-30T16:04:42Z2020-04-30T16:04:42ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What do you call a group of ... ?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u77e?What-do-you-call-a-group-of#202017-03-17T19:22:07Z2017-02-26T10:00:24Z<p>A grumble of dwarves?
<br />
A parade of elves?
<br />
A banquet of halflings?
<br />
A snowflake of drow?</p>
<p>Perhaps a small group of halflings could be called a buffet... Thats what the dragons call em anyway.</p>A grumble of dwarves?
A parade of elves?
A banquet of halflings?
A snowflake of drow?
Perhaps a small group of halflings could be called a buffet... Thats what the dragons call em anyway.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2017-02-26T10:00:24ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 'Embarrassing' Gaming ConfessionsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u1mj&page=2?Embarrassing-Gaming-Confessions#702017-08-23T11:13:51Z2016-12-08T08:04:54Z<p>I have character spreadsheets for every advancement level of the character so that they can step into a campaign at any level and be level appropriate.</p>I have character spreadsheets for every advancement level of the character so that they can step into a campaign at any level and be level appropriate.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-12-08T08:04:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 'Embarrassing' Gaming ConfessionsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u1mj&page=2?Embarrassing-Gaming-Confessions#652016-12-05T22:15:03Z2016-12-05T22:05:33Z<p>A woops.. Man if ever there were a confession. I play and prefer to play palladium more than any other system. Heroes unlimited and ninjas and superspies mostly.</p>
<p>I suppose my confession would be that I didn't reallize that such a thing should qualify as a confession, but it having been mentioned above... in retrospect... probably true.</p>A woops.. Man if ever there were a confession. I play and prefer to play palladium more than any other system. Heroes unlimited and ninjas and superspies mostly.
I suppose my confession would be that I didn't reallize that such a thing should qualify as a confession, but it having been mentioned above... in retrospect... probably true.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-12-05T22:05:33ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 'Embarrassing' Gaming ConfessionsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u1mj?Embarrassing-Gaming-Confessions#152016-12-02T16:28:59Z2016-12-01T19:55:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Usual Suspect wrote:</div><blockquote><p> All of my characters for home games are functionally a personality fragment of me.</p>
<p>Needless to say, I don't like playing angry or evil characters. </blockquote><p>Brother!The Usual Suspect wrote:All of my characters for home games are functionally a personality fragment of me.
Needless to say, I don't like playing angry or evil characters.
Brother!Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-12-01T19:55:01ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: A Civil Playstyle DiscussionVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u09w&page=2?A-Civil-Playstyle-Discussion#822016-11-26T03:18:09Z2016-11-26T01:11:54Z<p>Reminds me of that old post apocalyptic van damme movie where the good guy and bad guy were named after guitars... Cyborg... starring Van Damme as Gibson Rickenbacker and Vincent Klyn as Fender Tremolo. Good times.</p>Reminds me of that old post apocalyptic van damme movie where the good guy and bad guy were named after guitars... Cyborg... starring Van Damme as Gibson Rickenbacker and Vincent Klyn as Fender Tremolo. Good times.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-11-26T01:11:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: In the Company of BraggartsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u0i6?In-the-Company-of-Braggarts#102016-11-25T05:58:10Z2016-11-25T00:16:24Z<p><b>Game System</b>: Warhammer
<br />
<b>Name of PC</b>: Kestrel
<br />
<b>Class/Level</b>: Noble turned Duellist
<br />
<b>Adventure</b>: Split the party... one on one vs a demonic version of General Grievous/Edward scissorhands.
<br />
<b>Catalyst</b>: Stratagema training courtesy of Peak Performance, starring Lt Commander Data</p>
<p>Speaking of lived on to fight several other days... Was raiding a church that had been taken over by demons and vampires when the bulk of the party went downstairs to investigate further. I arrived late and was prevented from joining the party (and presumably punished for splitting the party) by encountering a 4 blade armed demon. 4 Bladed arms vs my heavily invested defensive statblock meant that while it was incredibly difficult to damage the demon in any way, he was soundly and roundly unable to get past my own defenses... Our battle raged on so long that the rest of the party was able to finish their battle, explore the aftermath, and plot the next element of our adventure before finally coming up to assist in dispatching the demon.</p>
<p>I did not 'win'... I simply played 'not to lose'.</p>Game System: Warhammer
Name of PC: Kestrel
Class/Level: Noble turned Duellist
Adventure: Split the party... one on one vs a demonic version of General Grievous/Edward scissorhands.
Catalyst: Stratagema training courtesy of Peak Performance, starring Lt Commander Data
Speaking of lived on to fight several other days... Was raiding a church that had been taken over by demons and vampires when the bulk of the party went downstairs to investigate further. I arrived late and was prevented from...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-11-25T00:16:24ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: In the Company of BraggartsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u0i6?In-the-Company-of-Braggarts#92016-11-25T05:57:37Z2016-11-25T00:09:18Z<p><b>Game System</b>: Warhammer
<br />
<b>Name of PC</b>: Kestrel
<br />
<b>Class/Level</b>: Noble turned Duellist
<br />
<b>Adventure</b>: Pursued by Chaos Lord on Juggernaut
<br />
<b>Catalyst</b>: fate points</p>
<p>Party was being pursued by a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut whose intent was to run us down, destroy our cart, steal the contents and most likely kill us all. My noble does what anyone of high birth should do, and promptly hopped off the cart, told them to ride on in haste, and used my rapier to draw a literal line in the sand. Furrowed brow lowered... and bid the Chaos Lord to do his worst. Certain death of this type usually merits a fate point simply to spare my own life, but I argued that in this case I was using the fate point for an offensive action not to spare my own life, but to stab the Juggernaut in the brain through his eyeball.</p>
<p>In an odd twist, character lived on to fight several other days. Ended up taxidermying that Juggernaut's head. Achievement unlocked: trophy hunter.</p>Game System: Warhammer
Name of PC: Kestrel
Class/Level: Noble turned Duellist
Adventure: Pursued by Chaos Lord on Juggernaut
Catalyst: fate points
Party was being pursued by a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut whose intent was to run us down, destroy our cart, steal the contents and most likely kill us all. My noble does what anyone of high birth should do, and promptly hopped off the cart, told them to ride on in haste, and used my rapier to draw a literal line in the sand. Furrowed brow...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-11-25T00:09:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: If I were a Role Play Character...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u161?If-I-were-a-Role-Play-Character#72016-12-07T12:28:01Z2016-11-24T23:59:18Z<p>What do you mean 'If I were a...?'... I used to BE a role play character... Then I took an arrow to the knee.</p>What do you mean 'If I were a...?'... I used to BE a role play character... Then I took an arrow to the knee.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-11-24T23:59:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: A Civil Playstyle DiscussionVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u09w&page=2?A-Civil-Playstyle-Discussion#782016-11-28T23:40:14Z2016-11-24T23:46:49Z<p>Roleplaying-to-combat ratios
<br />
• More roleplaying than combat, but I'd qualify it as 'not combat over combat'... so roleplaying and planning and general character building sandboxing over 'lazer focused plot chasing'. I'm also about as close to a pacifist as a tabletop gaming character can get. Battle should always be the last option. Way more into exploring and interacting than stabbing slicing and burning.</p>
<p>Rules vs. flavor
<br />
• Flavor for sure. As a grognard I'm way more rulings over rules.</p>
<p>Powerful and flavorful builds
<br />
• Powerful means flavorful to me... There's not much flavor for a dude with an axe whose choices are 'I chop' or 'I wait for something to give me an excuse to chop'... On the other hand while I prefer my characters to be 'above competent' more than 'harrowed and in constant danger', I also prefer the bulk of my character's power to be artful and narratively rich 'fartin around having fun' power to match my preferred sandboxxy character driven playstyle.</p>
<p>Evil parties vs. noble parties vs. slightly sketchy parties
<br />
• Cant stand evil parties, and I'd say 95% of all parties I've been in or ran for are 'too morally ambiguous shoot first ask questions later' for my personal taste. I'm a big fan of reckless behavior meets consequenses kinda guy.</p>
<p>"Sandbox" (open route, open destination) vs. "railroad" (set route, set destination) vs. "freeway" (open route, set destination)
<br />
• Sweet sweet sandbox for sure. Not to say that once the players have chosen a goal that highways arent what immediately follows as a natural consequence. Quantums and Schroedingers are, at the end of the day, as much a part of the game as any rule thats ever been written.</p>
<p>Silly vs. serious
<br />
• Middle of the road for me really. Marvel has been doing this really well for me. Yes the situation is serious, but unlike DC, we dont have to marinade in our own melodrama all the dang time. I'll take silly marvel over Emo DC ten times out of ten thank you. That doesn't mean I'm whole hog silly either though. Macho women with guns and Paranoia are a little too spaztic (sp?) for me.</p>
<p>Genre choices
<br />
• Contemporary supers with martial arts. I'm mostly a heroes unlimited/ninjas and superspies guy. Superheroes. Superspies... 80's action scenes. Cool one liners.</p>Roleplaying-to-combat ratios
• More roleplaying than combat, but I'd qualify it as 'not combat over combat'... so roleplaying and planning and general character building sandboxing over 'lazer focused plot chasing'. I'm also about as close to a pacifist as a tabletop gaming character can get. Battle should always be the last option. Way more into exploring and interacting than stabbing slicing and burning.
Rules vs. flavor
• Flavor for sure. As a grognard I'm way more rulings over rules.
...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-11-24T23:46:49ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: #level20problemsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tva8&page=2?level20problems#642017-01-09T23:19:35Z2016-09-21T06:18:30Z<p>For level 20 my summoner took the leadership feat. All my cohorts and subordinates from leadership feat also have leadership feat... this compound is getting expensive to feed. #level20problems #turtles...Imeanleadershipfeatallthewaydown</p>For level 20 my summoner took the leadership feat. All my cohorts and subordinates from leadership feat also have leadership feat... this compound is getting expensive to feed. #level20problems #turtles...ImeanleadershipfeatallthewaydownVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-09-21T06:18:30ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: At what age and what game did you start pen an paper rpgs?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ttt2&page=4?At-what-age-and-what-game-did-you-start-pen#1942016-09-03T01:47:41Z2016-09-02T18:27:25Z<p>I'll always remember my first tabletop gaming purchase. Red box and blue box each on sale at goodwill for a buck each. If I couldn't have joined the hobby for 2 bucks I can't guarantee I'd ever gotten into the hobby in the first place.</p>
<p>Gaming has always been the 'most fun per dollar' of anything I've ever done.</p>I'll always remember my first tabletop gaming purchase. Red box and blue box each on sale at goodwill for a buck each. If I couldn't have joined the hobby for 2 bucks I can't guarantee I'd ever gotten into the hobby in the first place.
Gaming has always been the 'most fun per dollar' of anything I've ever done.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2016-09-02T18:27:25ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Respect. Do we have any!?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2shnr?Respect-Do-we-have-any#222015-07-19T01:00:38Z2015-07-18T21:39:18Z<p>This is sort of exactly the reason why I post on these board less than others. And the more you call them out on it and try to steer the conversation back on course, the more agitated they get at you. Dont get me wrong. I love you all and I'll always stick around, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that every time I think about posting anything on these threads my very first thought is 'brace for impact' regarding a few specific individuals. I don't even go near the houserules and homebrew section anymore. If I'm thinking about changing this or that in my system, I don't bring those ideas here anymore.</p>This is sort of exactly the reason why I post on these board less than others. And the more you call them out on it and try to steer the conversation back on course, the more agitated they get at you. Dont get me wrong. I love you all and I'll always stick around, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that every time I think about posting anything on these threads my very first thought is 'brace for impact' regarding a few specific individuals. I don't even go near the houserules and homebrew...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-07-18T21:39:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The Eight Primary Game Design FallaciesVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sf4j&page=2?The-Eight-Primary-Game-Design-Fallacies#872015-07-13T13:45:18Z2015-07-13T00:06:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Orfamay Quest wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<span class=messageboard-ooc>Would a non-transformation be a cisformation?</span> </blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Perhaps one is simply having a midlife cisis?</span>Orfamay Quest wrote:Would a non-transformation be a cisformation?
Perhaps one is simply having a midlife cisis?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-07-13T00:06:23ZRe: Forums: Television: HumansVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sf54?Humans#42015-07-08T16:50:06Z2015-07-07T22:31:29Z<p>I'm totally diggin it so far. The only thing I don't like about it is knowing they're an episode or two ahead of us in the show's home country and a guy like me with some research skills is hard pressed not to go looking for spoilers to see what happens on episodes we don't get to see yet. How can I binge watch this awesome show if we're the last to get it?!?!</p>
<p>Can't wait to see whats next is both a shining endorsement of the show so far, but also a critique... More! More!</p>I'm totally diggin it so far. The only thing I don't like about it is knowing they're an episode or two ahead of us in the show's home country and a guy like me with some research skills is hard pressed not to go looking for spoilers to see what happens on episodes we don't get to see yet. How can I binge watch this awesome show if we're the last to get it?!?!
Can't wait to see whats next is both a shining endorsement of the show so far, but also a critique... More! More!Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-07-07T22:31:29ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The games of your dreams...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sezb?The-games-of-your-dreams#132015-07-06T13:16:22Z2015-07-06T12:30:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tormsskull wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Want to Play: Anything where roleplaying is the main goal.
<br />
</blockquote><p>This. What I miss the most about gaming these days is how the players seem to go after goals like malnourished piranhas but have no interest in the lower key? simpler? facets of adventuring... You manage to seamlessly incorporate the player's goal into the overall story but halfway through it the players are like 'dang. If I knew it was going to take this long I never would have wanted it in the first place...'
<p>I wanted it... But I just wanted you to give it to me with no fuss. Immediately.</p>
<p>It used to be that getting there was half the fun. There used to be an ebb and flow to the amount of danger the party was in... At least for me lately it seems like players just want to 'fast forward to the door kickin boss monster fightin' part as soon as possible.</p>Tormsskull wrote:Want to Play: Anything where roleplaying is the main goal.
This. What I miss the most about gaming these days is how the players seem to go after goals like malnourished piranhas but have no interest in the lower key? simpler? facets of adventuring... You manage to seamlessly incorporate the player's goal into the overall story but halfway through it the players are like 'dang. If I knew it was going to take this long I never would have wanted it in the first place...' I...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-07-06T12:30:33ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: MinMaxingVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sd67?MinMaxing#32015-06-20T07:24:27Z2015-06-18T00:04:59Z<p>I think the dividing line is when you specialize to such a degree that you no longer have any expectation of effectively doing anything else but that thing you've specialized in.</p>
<p>You become a one trick pony and before you know it you've become the person in the game to which every problem is a nail to which you've brought your only hammer.</p>
<p>If you don't mind the parts in the game to which your one trick can't be applied, then its not so bad, but variety being the spice of life, a character with no variety can get old fast even if the one thing he does is an amazing but grating accent.</p>I think the dividing line is when you specialize to such a degree that you no longer have any expectation of effectively doing anything else but that thing you've specialized in.
You become a one trick pony and before you know it you've become the person in the game to which every problem is a nail to which you've brought your only hammer.
If you don't mind the parts in the game to which your one trick can't be applied, then its not so bad, but variety being the spice of life, a character...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-06-18T00:04:59ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: How do you feel about GMPCs?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s94v&page=12?How-do-you-feel-about-GMPCs#5922015-06-02T10:54:25Z2015-05-27T00:46:59Z<p>The best gm's run nothing but DMPCs... Every character is a well thought out well developed, thoughtfully motivated and played actor upon the player's stage with at least a hair of common sense or a sense of self preservation, or at worst, if fighting to the death, a believable thing worth dying for at stake at the relevant moments. They should not be conveniently scaled to be 'a balanced fight' for the party because that's not how life works.</p>
<p>Sometimes versimilitude means dealing with people as they are, not as you want them to be.</p>The best gm's run nothing but DMPCs... Every character is a well thought out well developed, thoughtfully motivated and played actor upon the player's stage with at least a hair of common sense or a sense of self preservation, or at worst, if fighting to the death, a believable thing worth dying for at stake at the relevant moments. They should not be conveniently scaled to be 'a balanced fight' for the party because that's not how life works.
Sometimes versimilitude means dealing with...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-05-27T00:46:59ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: goddessesVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s9ve?goddesses#122015-05-16T04:04:09Z2015-05-16T03:21:27Z<p>1e AD&D Deities and Demigods has her in the greek section, page 69, copyright 1980</p>
<p>Lawful Evil. The 'Goddess of Magic' and typically known as 'the Moon Goddess'</p>
<p>Can cast 2 spells per round at night as a 20th level mage or illusionist. Travels with hellhounds and clerics of Hecate will not be attacked by them.</p>1e AD&D Deities and Demigods has her in the greek section, page 69, copyright 1980
Lawful Evil. The 'Goddess of Magic' and typically known as 'the Moon Goddess'
Can cast 2 spells per round at night as a 20th level mage or illusionist. Travels with hellhounds and clerics of Hecate will not be attacked by them.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-05-16T03:21:27ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Complete this sentence, My character doesn't carry a ranged weapon because...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p12c&page=8?Complete-this-sentence-My-character-doesnt#3602016-06-11T16:51:00Z2015-04-30T20:36:55Z<p>Because any fool can murder from range, but its too cold... Too impersonal... Its like smelling the soup but never tasting it... One must feel the warm flow of fluid from the still beating heart of the enemy and the smell of his breath as it fades to know what it really means to take a life. The spirit in order to leave its host must then pass through you on its way out. You can't savor that from 30 feet away, even with magic. We are not hunters. We don't do this for food. We don't do this for sport... This is how we connect. This is a sharing of a lifetime in a moment. </p>
<p>You can see a bakery down the road... You might even be able to smell the bread... But you don't get to savor it until you step inside and offer up a piece of yourself for it. You don't get to feel every ounce of surprise and despair and disappointment unless you're right up there swimming with it... The seven stages of grief flashing through another's eyes from inches away... all in less than 15 seconds... If you're not there to dance with it, to swim in it, to embrace it, then its shamefully wasted. Those eyes will show you all their hopes and dreams as they say goodbye to them in those precious seconds. Thats the most important story there is... Thats a story I don't want to miss.</p>Because any fool can murder from range, but its too cold... Too impersonal... Its like smelling the soup but never tasting it... One must feel the warm flow of fluid from the still beating heart of the enemy and the smell of his breath as it fades to know what it really means to take a life. The spirit in order to leave its host must then pass through you on its way out. You can't savor that from 30 feet away, even with magic. We are not hunters. We don't do this for food. We don't do this...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-30T20:36:55ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: If you're an atheist, how can you have gods and religions in your setting?......Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s74n&page=3?If-youre-an-atheist-how-can-you-have-gods-and#1322015-04-23T03:43:30Z2015-04-21T14:53:33Z<p>I think the important part for this player would be to make sure that every time he rolls a natural 1 you must loudly proclaim "WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?!?!"</p>
<p>I have an odd sense of humor.</p>I think the important part for this player would be to make sure that every time he rolls a natural 1 you must loudly proclaim "WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?!?!"
I have an odd sense of humor.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-21T14:53:33ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Losing My EdgeVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s5fs?Losing-My-Edge#42015-05-18T17:50:44Z2015-04-12T21:48:01Z<p>And not to be debbie downer, but part of the problem might be if you're using pathfinder... It does have a rocket tag problem that I've personally found takes a lot of the climactic out of a fight. Only a problem if you're used to playing in other systems where the hit point stack outstrips the damage stack, giving a thing a few more rounds of fighting chance. At the end of the day I'd argue that pathfinder is in fact a far more lethal system than 2e in some regards.</p>And not to be debbie downer, but part of the problem might be if you're using pathfinder... It does have a rocket tag problem that I've personally found takes a lot of the climactic out of a fight. Only a problem if you're used to playing in other systems where the hit point stack outstrips the damage stack, giving a thing a few more rounds of fighting chance. At the end of the day I'd argue that pathfinder is in fact a far more lethal system than 2e in some regards.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-12T21:48:01ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=3?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#1332015-04-06T07:11:33Z2015-04-06T00:02:44Z<p>Very much agree</p>Very much agreeVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-06T00:02:44ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=3?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#1312015-04-06T07:10:45Z2015-04-05T23:42:54Z<p>Sorry bout the typos up there. had Easter activity happen at the house and had to hit send and walk away without a chance to finish my editing... Hope it was at least clear enough....</p>
<p>For me I like that the saving throws, though not conveniently unified and linear and simple, in their complexity, seemed to have meaning and life to them... There was a method to the madness. You could, based on the math, glean from them the sort of fluffy nuance of why they were the kinds of wierd that they were.</p>
<p>Sure pathfinder still has a little bit of that, and at the end of the day there are a lot of folks who see the colorful nuanced difference in a few points here and there probably being not worth the effort... At the end of the day its an issue of granularity vs payoff... For a lot of folks the payoff isnt worth the annoyance ...... For me it totally is. Its not even annoying to me. For me its a feature instead of a flaw.</p>
<p>As an example you could take the mechanic one step further and say that instead of having fort, ref and will, three separate saves that are good or bad as a function of class, but every class is required to be either good or bad at each of them... instead every class has a single saving throw that it uses to determine how it resists everything... every single save against poison, breath weapons, magic... whatever.... every single save you make is based off of your chosen one resistance method... A reflex character will use the one save he gets... jumping out of the way... a fort character will use the one save he gets... he will try to tough it out. A will character will make only will saves... he will try to grit his teeth and bear it.</p>
<p>And each one is equally good at their own method, so theres only one saving throw for each class and its the same number for everyone... I mean... It's simpler... and its still 'colorful and thematic' to an extent. But that new layer of simplicity does remove a little nuance... is such a thing worth the tradeoff or are we better still having every character have a fort, ref and will, and each character suck at one or two things?</p>
<p>Sure at the end of the day its 'micromanaging a swing in points' and the player's choices can either have a large or small contribution to the results of those swings... Thats kinda what feats and traits are... Giving the player the agency to swing a few points here and there in a custom direction for flavor's sake.</p>
<p>But then we go and make it so saving throws have less unique swing and flavor?</p>Sorry bout the typos up there. had Easter activity happen at the house and had to hit send and walk away without a chance to finish my editing... Hope it was at least clear enough....
For me I like that the saving throws, though not conveniently unified and linear and simple, in their complexity, seemed to have meaning and life to them... There was a method to the madness. You could, based on the math, glean from them the sort of fluffy nuance of why they were the kinds of wierd that they...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-05T23:42:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=3?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#1302015-04-06T07:10:19Z2015-04-05T20:53:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tequila Sunrise wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Out of curiosity, why do you prefer 2e saves? </blockquote><p>Ah, for the same reason I like palladiums skills really... In palladium a skill like driving started out with a huge percentage because driving is pretty easy in the grand scheme of things and it doesnt take much effort to become really great at driving.
<p>On the other hand a skill like safe cracking or streetwise starts off hard and crawls slowly because even when you're good, incrimental improvements are tiny at best, and you'll probably never hit 98% in streetwise no matter how long you work at it.</p>
<p>So the skill has a personality of either being easy or hard at the get go, also has a peronality of being easy or hard to get better at, and also has a personality of how good you're really ever going to get at it...</p>
<p>A 2e warrior starts out horrible against breath weapons, but ends up being the most resistant to them... because he starts out less educated than a mage or a priest or a thief probably would be about the nature of them... but they learn fast and they learn the hard way and by the time they cap out, they have a better ability to not let that horrible thing happen to them than any other class.</p>
<p>Rogues start out pretty good against poisons and paralysis because sure... They probably use a lot of it... But they dont every get much better at it over time because you're resistance to poison is more of a 'better at avoiding it' kind of way where a warrior starts out worse at it but at the end of the day is way better at resisting it because he's a badass and has more body control and just fights through it by physical superiority...</p>
<p>So every thing you could save against has its own 'personality'. I think the unified fort/ref/will save trick loses that just a little. Its a lot more streamlined and but , but it loses a little bit of its soul in the process. I don't require 'simple' as much as I enjoy 'systems that seem to follow their own wierd logic' when that logic seems to have been thought out and given a personality of its own.</p>
<p>I know the The warrior being the 'big dumb lunk' who never cracked a book does start out worse than every other guy and thats not a fun trope for some players, but by the time he levels up he's handily the best at every save there is with the exception of priests and death magic... Imagine if a pathfinder warrior went from 3 bad saves to 3 better saves than everyone else. I'd prefer it. Even if it required some wierd custom mechanic to make it happen. </p>
<p>Sure a great deal of thought was put into how 2e handles saves, and probably a great deal of thought was put into how later editions handle saves, but when the 2e guys were thinking of how to handle it, they built it for each category to have a unique curve or flavor and custom tailored them for each class. The mindset of the later saving throw mechanics was how do we make it simple... I like unique soulful personality in my mechanics over simplicity.</p>Tequila Sunrise wrote:Out of curiosity, why do you prefer 2e saves?
Ah, for the same reason I like palladiums skills really... In palladium a skill like driving started out with a huge percentage because driving is pretty easy in the grand scheme of things and it doesnt take much effort to become really great at driving. On the other hand a skill like safe cracking or streetwise starts off hard and crawls slowly because even when you're good, incrimental improvements are tiny at best, and...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-05T20:53:24ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Too grognard for a grognard! Grrr...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4iy?Too-grognard-for-a-grognard-Grrr#362015-04-10T23:12:29Z2015-04-04T05:55:32Z<p>if 2e and palladium are the red headed stepchilds of gaming, then I must have a thing for redheads.</p>if 2e and palladium are the red headed stepchilds of gaming, then I must have a thing for redheads.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-04T05:55:32ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=2?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#732015-04-04T07:32:17Z2015-04-04T05:52:45Z<p>I hit 3.5 or more out of 6 on your too grognard scale then. I like THACO and unopposed percentiles of bend bars/thieves skills. I hate perception rolls, but do not wish for the 3.0 version either. I prefer the old older more narrow saving throws of 2e as well though.</p>I hit 3.5 or more out of 6 on your too grognard scale then. I like THACO and unopposed percentiles of bend bars/thieves skills. I hate perception rolls, but do not wish for the 3.0 version either. I prefer the old older more narrow saving throws of 2e as well though.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-04T05:52:45ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=2?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#612015-04-04T06:59:19Z2015-04-04T01:49:46Z<p>Well it wasnt that we stopped playing it. It was more that we stopped blindly buying every single thing they published... Would be interesting to try to recreate the timeine of this particular grognard...</p>Well it wasnt that we stopped playing it. It was more that we stopped blindly buying every single thing they published... Would be interesting to try to recreate the timeine of this particular grognard...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-04T01:49:46ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz&page=2?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#572015-04-12T06:13:16Z2015-04-03T23:20:58Z<p>The trouble with grognards not liking newer games is when the presumption is that they do it out of hand.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>The point is that I don't just grognard my way out of liking these new systems... I've used them and I don't think the good that they bring is commesurate with the bad that they bring... All well intentioned experiments to be sure, but they all carry more baggage than the solutions they provide. Thats just how things work out. I don't dismiss them idly without examination.</p>
<p>Its a wider rant than it needed to be but the point is not only that theres a reason I prefer 'silly old systems', but that those same reasons apply to a much larger range of problems with supposedly 'newer' 'better' mechanics. There's a reason that despite the criticism that often comes up about the games I like is the same old sturm and drang every time, they are some of the only systems that have survived decades without rewrites from the ground up.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>But yeah... I may be a grognard, but its not the 'murder every pc by surprise because its fun' kinda grognard. And my grognard ways are not built of 'idle nostalgia' but from putting the nose to the grindstone and seeing when the 'design goal' and the 'user experience' don't line up when they should.</p>
<p>The grognard as a perjorative is simply mislabeling a person who critiques the newfangled fangles without proper examination... The reverse equivalency would be similar to saying 'you couldn't know how much better 2e was because you haven't been gaming long enough to have played it enough to judge...'</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure modern gamers do like more modern games. I do find it telling that those games need to be rewritten every few years though.</p>
<p>I'm really looking forward to Pathfinder's Unchained book because its like 'we're doing to do some things that our community might find insane... but it might be just the kinda crazy thats a good thing. Still had to get someone's permission to put out a book like that though. I honestly look forward to seeing what new ideas can come out of paizo's designers unshackled. It may finally be great ideas that work well. It might just be another batch of things that sound better than they play. I'd give better odds to the latter but thats because I've been playing so long. Doesn't stop me from coming back hopeful.</p>
<p>Watching Chris Perkins gm Aquisitions Incorporated makes me hopeful. Probably helps a little that everyone at the table is a writer, but nobody is getting mired up in minutiae or challenging rulings, and no ruling is so objectionable as to be worthy of challenge. Pretty smooth table. I've become a big fan of Chris Perkins and Rothfuss watching those games and some of their other interviews.</p>
<p>But imagining how those chandelier tactics would be handled at half the battle matting, rules lawyering gaming tables I've been at. •shudder•.</p>The trouble with grognards not liking newer games is when the presumption is that they do it out of hand.
[Spoiler omitted]
[Spoiler omitted]
The point is that I don't just grognard my way out of liking these new systems... I've used them and I don't think the good that they bring is commesurate with the bad that they bring... All well intentioned experiments to be sure, but they all carry more baggage than the solutions they provide. Thats just how things work out. I don't dismiss them...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-03T23:20:58ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes Someone a Grognard?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4kz?What-Makes-Someone-a-Grognard#182015-04-04T01:53:13Z2015-04-03T15:24:00Z<p>Grognard: among other grognards, a term of endearment and brotherhood, like the marines, or patriots, they form a timeless bond of kinship through a love and appreciation of a bygone era when things were built to stand the test of time. Where every layman had a unique but effective way of patching that wagon up, and it was his duty to do so, instead of simply using it for kindling and going out and buying a new wagon or building a new wagon from scratch. They are the frontiersmen, the resourceful builders of what we today call civilization. Like the difference between muscle cars and modern ferraris, one was spartan and had inferior traction for the level of power that it offered, but was time tested, gotcha down the road, and was cheap and easy to keep together... The other includes the newest technology and gadgets and might even get ya down the road faster, but any time you try to actually do that it'll most likely hit a tree or spontaneously combust under its own internal frictions.</p>
<p>Among non grognards, a perjorative meant to signify the poster to be the sort of fellow who, upon hearing about your newfangled d20, dice pools, feat trees, fate points (other meta currencies), toughness/wounds mechanics, wargames, battle mats and battle mat mechachics probaby immediately thinks to himself 'so what you're saying is you're not really •good• at this gaming thing, are you...'</p>
<p>Which is not true... they do not think like this. Not all of them anyway. Not most of them anyway.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Grognard: among other grognards, a term of endearment and brotherhood, like the marines, or patriots, they form a timeless bond of kinship through a love and appreciation of a bygone era when things were built to stand the test of time. Where every layman had a unique but effective way of patching that wagon up, and it was his duty to do so, instead of simply using it for kindling and going out and buying a new wagon or building a new wagon from scratch. They are the frontiersmen, the...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-03T15:24:00ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Too grognard for a grognard! Grrr...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s4iy?Too-grognard-for-a-grognard-Grrr#112015-04-03T14:25:24Z2015-04-03T03:44:54Z<p>Yeah. I also play 2nd edition.... While i've put in my time with 3.5 and pathfinder, I see all the same system troubles that the OP points out and then some... While I managed to make the experience as fun as I possibly could, I also found plenty of instances where the new things that pathfinder offers are things I'd like to try, I've also noticed that those things are things that modern gm's like to avoid like the plague. I've learned a lot of what makes newer games not better games, and to that effect I'm still primarily a 2e player when it comes to D&D.</p>
<p>Whats worse is that the only other system I prefer is Heroes Unlimited and Ninja's and superspies... Another system which, despite plugging on for well over 3 decades relatively unchanged, still seems impossible to have a pleasant conversation about. Every time the system is mentioned you have to weed through a gauntlet of 'horribly organized, everything newer is better and simpler, KS is an •expletive deleted• blather and so on, ad nauseum, making a decent conversation about it almost impossible.</p>
<p>Despite the negative stigma, I'll still choose heroe's unlimited and ninjas and superspies over any system that's come after it...</p>
<p>So for me the 'if it's so good why aren't you still playing it'... I'd agree. I AM indeed still playing it to the exclusion of newer systems with 'new baggage' that does not outweigh its 'new coolness'. Not a fan of d20, dice pools, feat trees, fate points, toughness/wounds mechanics, wargames, battle mats, battle mat mechachics. Yet I still enjoy gaming enough to want to keep showing up here and talking about it.</p>
<p>I just don't sing the praises of newfangled mechanics...</p>
<p>Aquisitions Incorporated has been an awesome watch though. I'm now a big fan of Rothfuss and Chris Perkins... Chris seems to be very light handed rules light fiat friendly, which is the cheery kind of old school I've always experienced and endorsed.</p>Yeah. I also play 2nd edition.... While i've put in my time with 3.5 and pathfinder, I see all the same system troubles that the OP points out and then some... While I managed to make the experience as fun as I possibly could, I also found plenty of instances where the new things that pathfinder offers are things I'd like to try, I've also noticed that those things are things that modern gm's like to avoid like the plague. I've learned a lot of what makes newer games not better games, and to...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-04-03T03:44:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Pathfinder Forums Memes that Grind Your GearsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0ns&page=14?Pathfinder-Forums-Memes-that-Grind-Your-Gears#6782015-03-20T11:11:32Z2015-03-19T08:57:57Z<p>If dwarves are to be believed, everything is a lower form of life among the dwarven race.</p>If dwarves are to be believed, everything is a lower form of life among the dwarven race.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-19T08:57:57ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Pathfinder Forums Memes that Grind Your GearsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0ns&page=6?Pathfinder-Forums-Memes-that-Grind-Your-Gears#2882015-03-11T19:30:02Z2015-03-11T00:10:27Z<p>I'll again make my recommendation for the easiest way to shake off such criticism...</p>
<p>Give your dual scimitar wielding drow an appalachian accent somewhere between R Lee Ermey and Fix it Feelix... Nobody will mistake you for drizzt if it sounds like you're backstory is 'runnin' moonshine for boss hog'</p>I'll again make my recommendation for the easiest way to shake off such criticism...
Give your dual scimitar wielding drow an appalachian accent somewhere between R Lee Ermey and Fix it Feelix... Nobody will mistake you for drizzt if it sounds like you're backstory is 'runnin' moonshine for boss hog'Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-11T00:10:27ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes a Great DM?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s18k&page=2?What-Makes-a-Great-DM#672015-03-09T08:18:18Z2015-03-08T18:10:27Z<p>Come to think of it...</p>
<p>Most of harrison ford's characters and half the cast of goonies and I think galaxy quest are the three movies I can come up with off the top of my head where the characters themselves stated outright 'this is a bad idea' before immediately doing it. I love those movies.</p>
<p>I actually went back through the thread looking for things I disagree with and I gotta say the only one's I'm not really on board with are the drinking ones...</p>
<p>I find a table with a lot of alchohol in them isnt really focused... A gm full of mountain dew also kinda isnt really focused, heheheheh.... and I have no idea what the whole 'drink your milk' thing is about... But other than that I think great ideas all around.</p>
<p>Perhaps if someone came up with the perfect blend of wine, milk, and mountain dew I could be swayed... But that drink sounds horrible.</p>Come to think of it...
Most of harrison ford's characters and half the cast of goonies and I think galaxy quest are the three movies I can come up with off the top of my head where the characters themselves stated outright 'this is a bad idea' before immediately doing it. I love those movies.
I actually went back through the thread looking for things I disagree with and I gotta say the only one's I'm not really on board with are the drinking ones...
I find a table with a lot of alchohol in...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-08T18:10:27ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes a Great DM?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s18k&page=2?What-Makes-a-Great-DM#652015-03-09T08:17:55Z2015-03-08T17:51:57Z<p>Of course there will always be exceptions...</p>
<p>I just dont think focusing on them accomplishes much.</p>
<p>I'd posit that most of the time the best thing about the game is the freedom to have bad ideas.</p>
<p>I mean at the end of the day a guys deciding him and his three buddies (or three strangers he met at a bar) are gonna go get rich by hunting a hundred foot fire breathing lizard by themselves constitutes a bad idea...</p>
<p>Walking into a the cave of a lich thats hundreds of years old is a bad idea...</p>
<p>When I think of the word 'adventurer' the last two words I think of are 'safe and prudent'</p>
<p>The game kinda runs on bad ideas.</p>Of course there will always be exceptions...
I just dont think focusing on them accomplishes much.
I'd posit that most of the time the best thing about the game is the freedom to have bad ideas.
I mean at the end of the day a guys deciding him and his three buddies (or three strangers he met at a bar) are gonna go get rich by hunting a hundred foot fire breathing lizard by themselves constitutes a bad idea...
Walking into a the cave of a lich thats hundreds of years old is a bad idea...
...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-08T17:51:57ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Pathfinder Forums Memes that Grind Your GearsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0ns&page=4?Pathfinder-Forums-Memes-that-Grind-Your-Gears#1912015-03-06T21:42:53Z2015-03-06T20:07:06Z<p>Ooh. Good one, Mythic!</p>Ooh. Good one, Mythic!Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-06T20:07:06ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: What Makes a Great DM?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s18k&page=2?What-Makes-a-Great-DM#612015-03-23T13:25:47Z2015-03-06T05:10:07Z<p>The most encompassing idea that I know for how to be a great dm...</p>
<p>When the player has an idea... </p>
<p>IT IS A GREAT IDEA!... every single time.</p>
<p>Your job is then to figure out for yourself how to make it a great idea.</p>
<p>Sometimes the most important first step is teaching yourself not to think of other peoples ideas as bad.</p>The most encompassing idea that I know for how to be a great dm...
When the player has an idea...
IT IS A GREAT IDEA!... every single time.
Your job is then to figure out for yourself how to make it a great idea.
Sometimes the most important first step is teaching yourself not to think of other peoples ideas as bad.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-06T05:10:07ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: ....really grinds my gears...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rr47&page=3?really-grinds-my-gears#1042015-03-02T13:05:38Z2015-03-02T07:41:09Z<p>My office had a workday schedule that basically covered every business hour of every US time zone. So we had people who started at 5am (7am east coast) and we had people showing up at 2pm (shift ends 9pm west coast). The office would not 'officially declare a snow day' until after 2pm... So if you chose not to show up for work due to the weather, you were basically gambling that they'd call it a snow day, but at the moment your shift started, if you weren't there... technically you were unexcused and got an 'occurrance'.</p>
<p>We later found out that the percentage of employees who braved this gamble was in fact the determining factor in whether they chose to declare it a snow day at 2pm... If everyone said 'screw it' then everyone got the day off. If enough people showed up, they 'decided at that point' that it must not have been bad enough and you should have been there.</p>
<p>They refused to call a snow day until it was too late for everyone, counting on the fact that enough people would say dang. I dont want to get in trouble. And we had to basically gamble on good faith that everyone else was having just as bad a snow day as we were.</p>
<p>I wish the world would stop wasting its energy on such foolishness.</p>My office had a workday schedule that basically covered every business hour of every US time zone. So we had people who started at 5am (7am east coast) and we had people showing up at 2pm (shift ends 9pm west coast). The office would not 'officially declare a snow day' until after 2pm... So if you chose not to show up for work due to the weather, you were basically gambling that they'd call it a snow day, but at the moment your shift started, if you weren't there... technically you were...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-02T07:41:09ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Trust !Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0mv&page=2?Trust#592015-03-02T12:54:14Z2015-03-01T23:08:58Z<p>Its funny how I dont remember the terms of use on these forums requiring me to only say the kinds of things people like to hear and blow smoke up people's butts.</p>
<p>I'm free to have an opinion and I'm free to voice it.</p>
<p>If you don't like the sound of what I'm critiquing... its probably you.</p>
<p>If you don't like the label, don't fit the label.</p>Its funny how I dont remember the terms of use on these forums requiring me to only say the kinds of things people like to hear and blow smoke up people's butts.
I'm free to have an opinion and I'm free to voice it.
If you don't like the sound of what I'm critiquing... its probably you.
If you don't like the label, don't fit the label.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-03-01T23:08:58ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Trust !Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0mv?Trust#242019-02-08T22:03:29Z2015-02-28T19:31:23Z<p>Yep. Again my experience isn't the one truth... YMMV...</p>
<p>But my experience of it... For me... Is that in order to have <s>good gamers</s> gamers that are more interested in the game itself than the mechanics... I've tried to develop techniques for untraining them from gaming the game. I have found that doing this from within pathfinder never works for me. Ever.</p>
<p>Only in systems that are written less like a card game. Less rules. Less clear and easily definable rock beats paper. Less 'every troll has the stats of troll. here are the stats of a troll'.</p>
<p>Marathon runners don't bulk up with resistance training and powerlifters dont run marathons. So that's what I'm doin. I'm not giving up. I'm simply training to a different goal.</p>Yep. Again my experience isn't the one truth... YMMV...
But my experience of it... For me... Is that in order to have good gamers gamers that are more interested in the game itself than the mechanics... I've tried to develop techniques for untraining them from gaming the game. I have found that doing this from within pathfinder never works for me. Ever.
Only in systems that are written less like a card game. Less rules. Less clear and easily definable rock beats paper. Less 'every troll has...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-28T19:31:23ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Trust !Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0mv?Trust#212015-03-02T12:48:32Z2015-02-28T18:44:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jerry Wright 307 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
I agree with you. It isn't just Pathfinder, though. It's the "rule for everything and the GM can't change them" attitude that I think causes the problem.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Mike Mearls wrote:</div><blockquote>It's all about player power now - the DM is just the rules guy - and the DM can't contradict what the players say. 4e is taking away from the DM, and that's where I worry because other types of games can do that better. I might as well play a board game, 'cause I'm just here enforcing the rules. Without the DM as the creative guy, what's the point?</blockquote><p>Yeah. Between cellphones and pathfinder what had happened was it created in my players a sort of entitlement to know the mechanics of everything completely inside and out where such an entitlement never was before...
<p>It got so bad that one of my best players, when presented with the fact that when something happened to his character and he didnt know when or why it had happened, instead of thinking of all the possibilities, and figuring out a solution, instead he was right on the edge of table flipping. Screaming, throwing his dice and packing up his stuff because something happened to him, but not to his face. And not using mechanics he was familiar with. (It was a curse delivered surreptitiously through an arm wrestling competition. The curse prevented him from running faster than 60 miles per hour. I didnt make him roll the saving throw until he tried running faster than 60 miles per hour. If i'd have made him roll the saving throw the moment he was cursed, he'd probably have killed everyone in the room just for making him have to roll a saving throw, even if he didn't know why.) Aesthetically he was ragequitting for not being given the opportunity to metagame. Suddenly this brilliant imaginative guy who'd been gaming for over a decade and handling anything life throws at him was reduced to a toddler tantrum. It was surreal.</p>
<p>That slow burgeoning growth within him that 'I will know everything that happens, how it happens, why it happens and from whom immediately as it happens came from pathfinder. And it wasnt a big deal until it was. His reaction wasnt that of a gamer surprisingly introduced to a minor inconvenience he had to solve and correct. His reaction was that of a man knifed in the ballz. Or through the soul.. or Like I'd knifed his soul in the soulballz.</p>
<p>Another one of my players very specifically said 'the only way I could possibly not optimize is if I rolled everything randomly and had no choice in the matter'.</p>
<p>Its like people who play mmo's but use combat loggers to analyze the numbers behind the game... They cant even consider the idea of playing it without knowing all the underlying math. <b>They physically can't do it.</b> The number one descriptor of fun in that system is not playing the game, but instead learning to skillfully exploit the mechanics... They're not playing the game anymore... They're gaming the game. Its not stormwind fallacy. Its fundamentally changing which game they are playing... The one they made characters for, or the math challenge behind it. It may not be the intent of how pathfinder is written, but it is clearly producing or attracting that kind of player, intentional or not.</p>
<p>Its not even a bad way to be in an mmo. There's usually only one story. In order to keep enjoying playing, you have to find some new thing do to or some new way to tackle that same one story. So gaming the game is encouraged. It's almost the only right way to keep enjoying it without changing games and starting all over.</p>
<p>This may not be a new problem, but its a new problem to my gaming table. The change in attitude from playing the game to gaming the system finally boiled over. Not letting him game the game revealed that he was HATING the inability to game the game and almost completely ignoring the actual game itself.</p>
<p>Its true I could have done such things as making a troll thats immune to fire and is destroyed by water to circumvent player knowledge and metagaming... But that verb tense is key... I <b>could</b> have. Way back in the day. I can't do that with anyone I know who says they like playing d20 or 3.0 or 3.5 or pathfinder. How dare I?</p>Jerry Wright 307 wrote:I agree with you. It isn't just Pathfinder, though. It's the "rule for everything and the GM can't change them" attitude that I think causes the problem.
Mike Mearls wrote:It's all about player power now - the DM is just the rules guy - and the DM can't contradict what the players say. 4e is taking away from the DM, and that's where I worry because other types of games can do that better. I might as well play a board game, 'cause I'm just here enforcing the rules....Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-28T18:44:17ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Trust !Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0mv?Trust#152015-03-02T14:41:17Z2015-02-28T18:16:18Z<p>Back in my day (here we go) players never got to read the dm guide or the monster manual. You couldnt force your players not to, but we worked on what was called the 'honor system'.</p>
<p>Nowadays your average player would rather stab you in the face with a fork than be called dishonorable for pulling out the monster manual the moment you tell him whats behind door number 3.</p>
<p>I blame cellphones. Everyone's got an internet in their pocket so everyone's been conditioned to 'have all the answers told to them right now'... The skill of learning by doing is dead. Of course you only get experience for killing things when for a huge percentage of the modern gaming population, killing things is the only experience most players want to have.</p>
<p>But they'd rather stab you in the face with a fork than fight without completely understanding every facet of what they're up against ahead of time.</p>
<p>People don't like surprises. And a lohohohohot of them have no desire to interact with something they don't already understand completely and must then also be given time to prepare for said ill gotten specifics.</p>
<p>Its easy to win when you're well informed and well prepared. But that's not adventure.</p>
<p>Adventure is when you're ill informed, ill prepared, and manage to muddle through it anyway.</p>Back in my day (here we go) players never got to read the dm guide or the monster manual. You couldnt force your players not to, but we worked on what was called the 'honor system'.
Nowadays your average player would rather stab you in the face with a fork than be called dishonorable for pulling out the monster manual the moment you tell him whats behind door number 3.
I blame cellphones. Everyone's got an internet in their pocket so everyone's been conditioned to 'have all the answers told...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-28T18:16:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Pathfinder Forums Memes that Grind Your GearsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0ns&page=4?Pathfinder-Forums-Memes-that-Grind-Your-Gears#1532015-02-28T18:04:26Z2015-02-28T18:03:38Z<p>General overall contrariness for contrariness's sake and ragebaiting. Must be a libra.</p>General overall contrariness for contrariness's sake and ragebaiting. Must be a libra.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-28T18:03:38ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The Many Things Adventurers Do That Are Really WeirdVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ruf8&page=5?The-Many-Things-Adventurers-Do-That-Are#2302015-02-27T10:19:13Z2015-02-27T02:22:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">GM Chyro wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Cleric: By Toraq, what did you do!
<br />
•proceeds healing• </blockquote><p>Typical adventurer: I've confirmed 2 individuals not to be zombies!GM Chyro wrote:Cleric: By Toraq, what did you do!
*proceeds healing*
Typical adventurer: I've confirmed 2 individuals not to be zombies!Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-27T02:22:16ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Pathfinder Forums Memes that Grind Your GearsVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0ns&page=2?Pathfinder-Forums-Memes-that-Grind-Your-Gears#722015-02-27T11:07:24Z2015-02-26T03:34:36Z<p>Hands down the biggest trouble I've had in the threads is when I'm brainstorming a concept for a rule change and instead get a combination of comments on how horrible my idea is without explaining why, followed by a hundred other posts describing how they'd personally handle it and their way is hands down phenominally better than my way. For... Reasons...</p>
<p>It's happened so often and so reliably that I no longer even look at the homebrew section of any forum anymore. For some reason 'lets explore my idea' sounds a lot like 'lets shoot down my idea so I can hear your idea instead' to a lahohohohohot of people.</p>
<p>Got really old really fast. I now have an immediate negative reaction to anyone who says 'I'm a game designer' especially if it's followed by 'so listen to me'.</p>Hands down the biggest trouble I've had in the threads is when I'm brainstorming a concept for a rule change and instead get a combination of comments on how horrible my idea is without explaining why, followed by a hundred other posts describing how they'd personally handle it and their way is hands down phenominally better than my way. For... Reasons...
It's happened so often and so reliably that I no longer even look at the homebrew section of any forum anymore. For some reason 'lets...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-26T03:34:36ZRe: Forums: Forum Games: Would You Rather? Pathfinder EditionVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rr1q&page=10?Would-You-Rather-Pathfinder-Edition#4872015-02-26T10:40:36Z2015-02-26T03:25:19Z<p>Mythic montyhaul.</p>
<p>If I wanted to test the limits of a guy with a stick and a few levels of leatherworking I'd join the sca.</p>
<p>Would you rather be able to travel through time or undo the ravages of time?</p>Mythic montyhaul.
If I wanted to test the limits of a guy with a stick and a few levels of leatherworking I'd join the sca.
Would you rather be able to travel through time or undo the ravages of time?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-02-26T03:25:19ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Character Backgrounds - Off Limits to GMs, or Fair Game?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rwh8&page=4?Character-Backgrounds-Off-Limits-to-GMs-or#1692015-01-28T17:31:07Z2015-01-28T16:41:16Z<p>For the same reason that gms shouldnt introduce npcs or scenery or 'themes' that they dont want the players to be able to kill, destroy, or ruin, players should not introduce elements to the world that they are not comfortable with experiencing the unpredictabe trauma and consequence of being in a fantastical world where bad things can and often do happen.</p>
<p>As long as you're giving your players total agency, as you should, they should also expect that you're free to control every other thing. Of course try not to go overboard (always know your dealer), but if its too precious to be messed with, don't put it in the world (only take what you can handle).</p>For the same reason that gms shouldnt introduce npcs or scenery or 'themes' that they dont want the players to be able to kill, destroy, or ruin, players should not introduce elements to the world that they are not comfortable with experiencing the unpredictabe trauma and consequence of being in a fantastical world where bad things can and often do happen.
As long as you're giving your players total agency, as you should, they should also expect that you're free to control every other thing....Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-01-28T16:41:16ZRe: Forums: Technology: 80s & 90s Tech, games & other stuff you loved back then.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rvtr&page=3?80s-90s-Tech-games-other-stuff-you-loved#1022015-01-23T12:36:40Z2015-01-22T08:43:12Z<p>Wow. Only the stuff from the 80s and 90s eh... lets see...</p>
<p>1980: Crazy Climber, Pac Man</p>
<p>1981: Intellivision's Astrosmash, Donkey Kong, Frogger, Snafu</p>
<p>1982: Bump N Jump, Burgertime, Dig Dug, Donkey Kong Jr, Moon Patrol, Ms Pac Man, Paratrooper, Pitfall, Pole Position, Qbert, Robotron 2084, Tron</p>
<p>1983: Buzz Bombers, Crystal Castles, Dragon's Lair, Spy Hunter, Star Wars Arcade, Tapper</p>
<p>1984: 1942, duck hunt, excitebike, karateka, montezuma's revenge, space ace, star rider, tetris</p>
<p>1985: Gauntlet, Carmen sandiego</p>
<p>1986: Defender of the crown, Gauntlet II, Ikari Warriors</p>
<p>1987: Double Dragon, Ninja warriors, Shinobi, Street fighter, Test drive, Time soldiers </p>
<p>1988: Battle Chess, Ninja Gaiden, Tecmo Bowl</p>
<p>1989: Budokan, Final fight, Golden axe, Super Offroad, Shadow Dancer, Sim City, UN Squadron, Test drive 2 The Duel., Curse of the Azure Bonds</p>
<p>1990: Centurion Defender of Rome, Super Mario World, Test drive 3, Wizardry vi: Bane of the cosmic forge, </p>
<p>1991: Arcus Odyssey, Scorched earth, Street fighter 2, Streets of Rage</p>
<p>1992: Fatal Fury 2, Jill of the Jungle, Mortal Kombat, Street fighter II hyper fighting, Streets of Rage 2</p>
<p>1993: Eternal champions, Final fight 2, Metal and Lace, Ogre Battle, Samurai Showdown, Street Fighter 2 turbo hyperfighting, Super street fighter 2, virtua fighter, World heroes 2, national lampoon's chess maniac 5 billion and 1</p>
<p>1994: Darkstalkers Night warriors, Ninja Warriors again!, Samurai showdown 2, Streets of Rage 3, Super Street fighter 2 turbo, Tekken, Virtua fighter 2, xmen COTA, xmen mutant apocalypse.</p>
<p>1995: Battle arena toshinden, Battle arena toshinden 2, Fighting vipers, Final fight 3, Marvel super heroes, nightwarriors: darkstalkers revenge, soul edge, street fighter alpha, tekken 2, twisted metal, world heroes perfect, xmen 2: clone wars, </p>
<p>1996: Battle arena toshinden 3, dead or alive, fighter's megamix, samurai showdown 4, star gladiator, street fighter alpha 2, street fighter ex, tomb raider, twisted metal 2,
<br />
virtua fighter 3, xmen vs streetfighter</p>
<p>1997: Darkstalkers 3, final fantasy 7, gran turismo, marvel super heroes v street fighter, street fighter 3 and 2nd impact, tekken 3, tomb raider 2</p>
<p>1998: Fighting vipers 2, gauntlet legends, Ridge Racer 4, Soulcalibur, Street Fighter Alpha 3, Street Fighter EX2, Tomb Raider 3, Twisted Metal 3</p>
<p>1999: Airforce Delta, Dead or alive 2, Final fantasy 8, Gran turismo 2, Hydro thunder, Silent scope, Space channel 5, Street fighter 3 3rd strike, Tokyo xtreme racer, Tomb raider the last revelation</p>Wow. Only the stuff from the 80s and 90s eh... lets see...
1980: Crazy Climber, Pac Man
1981: Intellivision's Astrosmash, Donkey Kong, Frogger, Snafu
1982: Bump N Jump, Burgertime, Dig Dug, Donkey Kong Jr, Moon Patrol, Ms Pac Man, Paratrooper, Pitfall, Pole Position, Qbert, Robotron 2084, Tron
1983: Buzz Bombers, Crystal Castles, Dragon's Lair, Spy Hunter, Star Wars Arcade, Tapper
1984: 1942, duck hunt, excitebike, karateka, montezuma's revenge, space ace, star rider, tetris
1985:...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-01-22T08:43:12ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Coming Full Circle With CharactersVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rvai?Coming-Full-Circle-With-Characters#92015-02-01T22:43:06Z2015-01-16T16:03:58Z<p>In terms of races I'm with thejeff on this one. I've never really felt a draw to 'playing all the wierd things'... The rest of my table is pretty passionate about playing where the wild things are.</p>
<p>In terms of classes I'm pretty sure I've never really liked the 'core 4' or the 'hammer arm anvil' or the 'tank, healer, dps' or any of those tropes. For me it makes the party feel more like a business performing a job than a group of friends going on an adventure.</p>In terms of races I'm with thejeff on this one. I've never really felt a draw to 'playing all the wierd things'... The rest of my table is pretty passionate about playing where the wild things are.
In terms of classes I'm pretty sure I've never really liked the 'core 4' or the 'hammer arm anvil' or the 'tank, healer, dps' or any of those tropes. For me it makes the party feel more like a business performing a job than a group of friends going on an adventure.Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-01-16T16:03:58ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Sick of players planning out their charactersVincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rv8q&page=7?Sick-of-players-planning-out-their-characters#3412015-01-16T17:42:11Z2015-01-16T15:57:41Z<p>Sadly the op's trouble is simply one of the drawbacks to 3.0 3.5 and 3.p... Any system that contains skill trees really. There's going to be a point where anyone who plays that game is going to either say 'oops. I took these feats and now there's no way i'll ever be able to take this one cool feat I found... next time I'd better plan my tree more carefully' or he's going to say 'ooh. feat trees. I know how these work. You have to plan them backwards or you might stray down an unintended path that leads where you didnt want it to go.'</p>
<p>Sure, its 'meta' but its a truth of the feat tree mechanic. To a lesser extent such conversations have been had even in systems that didnt have feat trees... If I was a wizard who wanted to have a few levels in cleric back in 2e, I had to weigh the fact that I might have to wait an extra level to get my 9th level spells, or if I took too many cleric levels it might remove 9th level spells from possibility completely...</p>
<p>In this case its simply a matter of 'making that choice more stark... more direct.'</p>
<p>Its easy for someone making a character to see that road because the road is layed out explicitly for them. If you want to end up here... You take this path. If you don't take this path, you don't end up here.</p>
<p>It's a 'meta railroad' and I agree. I'm not fond of it. I'd never take away a player's agency to do it, since I'd never want a gm to tell me I couldnt choose what path my character wanted to take.</p>
<p>For me personally the only way I've found to avoid it is to play systems that dont use it.</p>Sadly the op's trouble is simply one of the drawbacks to 3.0 3.5 and 3.p... Any system that contains skill trees really. There's going to be a point where anyone who plays that game is going to either say 'oops. I took these feats and now there's no way i'll ever be able to take this one cool feat I found... next time I'd better plan my tree more carefully' or he's going to say 'ooh. feat trees. I know how these work. You have to plan them backwards or you might stray down an unintended path...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-01-16T15:57:41ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Lawful Neutrality, somehow more of a pain then Chaotic Neutrality?Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rvlv?Lawful-Neutrality-somehow-more-of-a-pain-then#62015-01-14T21:24:49Z2015-01-14T16:00:54Z<p>I'm pretty sure I agree with this sentiment...</p>
<p>Every alignment has their 'stupid versions'.</p>
<p>So just like chaotic neutral or lawful good... It can be played a couple different ways. Some of those ways are great... Some of those ways are not.</p>
<p>Chaotic Neutral used to have the baddest rap because it was 'written' to mean 'whimsical and borderline insane'... Not only was it not morally or ethically accountable, it was in fact billed as being appropriate to play inconsistantly from moment to moment. To a certain extent this only really became a problem when the player decided to do something evil... or more specifically when the player chose to do something evil that had an undesirable effect o the party.</p>
<p>Lawful neutral's version of 'stupid' is a completely different 'flavor' but for completely similar reasons. While lawful means he's got a code... Sometimes thats a benevolent standard that he only holds himself to. But when it becomes the same kind of standard that lawful good 'stupid' paladins use... Holding the rest of the party to a standard, or thinking of them as 'worse than the LawfulGood/Stupid' player... A snobbishness/pompousness/arrogance... or when it means the party is then forced to do something it's not really interested in then thats again an undesirable effect on the party. There's an important difference though.</p>
<p>The difference between a lawfulgood/stupid and a lawfulneutral/stupid (and the thing that makes it worse) is that when these things happen, its no longer necessary to have the pretense of goodness as your justification for causing the trouble... Sure this guy could be a kwai chang caine trying to better the world with his moral and ethical views which would be mostly fine. But if its just a Judge Dredd unilaterally dispensing justice, its only mostly fine when aimed at npcs... Point that douchey pompous arrogance and unilateral judgement against the party that doesnt share that definition of justice.... and you're in for bad times. You've crossed the threshhold into 'I'm not a jerk.. I'm just PLAYING a jerk...' territory.</p>
<p>Of all the 'stupid' versions of alignments, I agree that lawful neutral stupid is the one I dislike the most. For the same reason that chaotic neutral stupid or lawful good stupid are bad... that they're played so close to the line of chaotic evil or lawful evil that its neutral in name only. What makes it worse is that a chaotic neutral is kind of expected to do things not everyone would agree with and never 'expects others to agree with his antics'... Lawful neutral can sometimes be holding other party members under his 'version' of law... Either subjecting them to scrutiny they don't agree with, or holding them to a standard or 'law' they dont agree with... When Lawful good is a douche, he can somewhat excuse it because he's trying to do 'good'... In doing 'good' he expects you might not agree with it but he can sort of expect you to deal with it... When chaotic neutral is a douche, he can somewhat excuse it because he's just being him, not expecting you to agree with it, and most likely being ok with the consequences of your disagreeing with it. Certainly not expecting you to 'like it'.</p>
<p>Absolutely Lawful neutral does things his own way. </p>
<p><li>When you agree with it, that way is fine.
<br />
<li>When he doesnt hold the pcs to the same standard or be critical of them for not agreeing with it.. Thats fine. </p>
<p>On the other hand... When he's a douche...
<br />
<li>there's rarely a 'good' excuse for it.
<br />
<li>it is used as a judgement tool against pcs
<br />
<li>it is used as a judgement tool against npcs that then inevitably ends up also being used as a judgement tool against the pcs...
<br />
<li>When the party tells these players they're not enjoying it... it is revealed that the player not only expects you to deal with it, he kinda expects you to like it.</p>
<p>So yeah. When Lawful Neutral is a 'personal code' and the player can 'keep it personal as in a code just for himself'... Works out fine. Using it as a method to judge npcs usually turns into using it to judge pcs... and suddenly you're 'Playing a Jerk'... And anyone who's had the conversation about 'I'm not a jerk, I'm just PLAYING a jerk' knows that the reason it doesnt work isn't because people can't tell the difference... Its because often, at the end of the day, in fuctionality (the way it effects the other players) there usually isn't a difference.</p>I'm pretty sure I agree with this sentiment...
Every alignment has their 'stupid versions'.
So just like chaotic neutral or lawful good... It can be played a couple different ways. Some of those ways are great... Some of those ways are not.
Chaotic Neutral used to have the baddest rap because it was 'written' to mean 'whimsical and borderline insane'... Not only was it not morally or ethically accountable, it was in fact billed as being appropriate to play inconsistantly from moment to...Vincent Takeda (alias of tennengar)2015-01-14T16:00:54Z