_shredder_'s page

What I would want most from new impulses are more options for non-physical damage of different types (right now we only have one rather weak cold damage impulse and zero impulses that deal acid or poison damage). I would love to play an acid themed kineticist, but right now I'm either fully relying on blasts for damage or mostly bludgeoning enemies with water.

I'm surprised that we still don't have a second slow but tough ancestry besides dwarfs. A snail/slug based ancestry kinda like the osharu from starfinder with a cooler aesthetic would be perfect for this.

Some new occult themed book that includes new thaumaturge implements and new psychic (sub)conscious minds. Both are some of my favorite classes and didn't get any major new options so far since their release.

As a Kineticist fan myself, I'd love something that is basically a stronger Psychokineticist archetype. I just really really really really want to be able to use paper as my main weapon and mode of travel and not die immediately. Yes, I did watch "Read or Die" and loved it. Hence.

As a giant pf1 psychokineticist fan, I would love to see it come back as a class archetype, and all I really want from it is changing the KAS and switching the Fortitude and Will save progressions, so I can play a fully mentally focused kineticist that feels more like a typical cloth caster than a tough martial.

I don't want a runesmith who is an actual caster with actual spells, just a runesmith who doesn't rely on their own weapon strikes and physical force at all and instead just fights only with (rune)magic. So it would be awesome if we had the option to trade the martial weapon proficiency progression for something else via cleric style subclasses.

of all casters, why would necromancer be pick-a-list? the three pick-a-list classes we do have (sorcerer, witch, summoner) are that way because the source of magic can vary wildly in its nature (inherited bloodline, pact with a powerful entity, summoned extraplanar entity). Necromancer does not have this variety of sources (it's just undead, you summon spooky gross corpses) and forcing pick-a-list makes as much sense on it as it would on wizard or an oracle. yeah you can kinda ramshackle a justification, but it doesn't feel natural for the class.

Some classes are obviously thematically tied to a specific spell list, like the wizard is the arcane class or the druid is the primal class, and some just need to be limited to a spell list for balancing concerns.

As I see it, neither is true for the necromancer - necromancy isn't traditionally tied to only occult, necromancy was a wizard school before and undead sorcerers/summoners use the divine list. And similarly to a summoner, the slotted spells shouldn't be the main focus of the class anyway, so the up and downsides of different spell lists don't matter that much.

R3st8 wrote:

I can totally understand why people who want the occult spell list are voicing their opinions, but why would anyone try to shut down others from having the option to choose between the two lists? If you don't like divine spells, then just choose to play occult.

You're right. While on the topic, I think my Fighter should have the choice to trade weapon expertise for Sneak Attack. Rage, or Exploit Vulnerability. Don't limit my choices!

You can already do exactly this while staying a martial who makes weapon strikes by choosing another class. There is nothing in the game that resembles the necromancers central thrall mechanic, so this is a completely different thing. Wanting the option for another spell list (that many classes share) has nothing to do with wanting the central unique class mechanic of another class.

So I don't get why you need to build up this strawman and act so smug and condescending about it when what I'm trying to suggest is way more similar to liking everything about magus besides that it's always arcane, something I have seen many people express who don't find other gish options as satisfying.

YuriP wrote:

Also we never saw the designers changes their concepts due players complains here in forum or in reddit. Expect that you will be just ignored or the designers answering that he doesn´t like the idea for the character concept that he is creating.

As a note, this isn't entirely true. The witch became a full pick-a-list caster in its final release, which it wasn't when it was initially presented. IIRC we had options for occult and primal, and maybe arcane? It wasn't originally also going to have divine.

That being said I'm much more in favor of the necromancer remaining exclusively occult. The other pick-a-list casters are broader concepts than a necromancer, IMO. Necromancer as a concept will benefit more from being more narrowly focused and explored, as opposed to the wider net that classes like sorcerer and witch cast, so I'd rather not see room taken up with feats linked to their different traditions.

I really don't want feats for different traditions, I would be completely fine with getting basically the playtest necromancer with one additional choice and nothing else. I completely agree that feats and abilities should focus on unique necromancer and not general caster stuff.

_shredder_ wrote:

To me primal is just a way more interesting and fitting tradition for necromancy than occult - creating primitive mindless skeletal thralls feels way more fitting to a tradition focused on manipulating matter and life, than one focused on manipulating mind and spirit. But I think every tradition can make a good argument for their specific version of necromancy being represented if you have some imagination and creativity.

As long as their aren't any big mechanical balancing concerns, I just find it kinda sad to limit player options and make many cool concepts unplayable without homebrew. And as I said, it's not like I want paizo to overhaul the class completely and make something new that has nothing to do with playtest necromancer, just adding a single sentence would basically solve all my problems.

Just like arcane was made avoiding healing spells, primal was made with the concept of avoid unlife spell. It's the most unlikely tradition for necromancy.

Again. I'm not against a multi-tradition necromancer. I just don´t believe that the designers will go through this way.

To me the difference is that arcane not having healing spells is a big balancing factor to nerf an already incredibly versatile spell list, while I don't see a druid or primal sorcerer getting a noticeable mechanical advantage from getting necromancy spells on the primal list. And even then, nothing stops an arcane witch from picking up the life boost spell, so I don't see how thats that different compared to a primal caster getting necromancy powers through class abilities.

I find the concept of a primal necromancer so exciting specifically because it plays against the stereotypes associated with primal castersband yet works imo really well thematically. Ofc I don't have big hope that paizo will agree with me here, but it can never hurt to try. And maybe at least something like a class archetype could be possible in the future...

To me primal is just a way more interesting and fitting tradition for necromancy than occult - creating primitive mindless skeletal thralls feels way more fitting to a tradition focused on manipulating matter and life, than one focused on manipulating mind and spirit. But I think every tradition can make a good argument for their specific version of necromancy being represented if you have some imagination and creativity.

As long as their aren't any big mechanical balancing concerns, I just find it kinda sad to limit player options and make many cool concepts unplayable without homebrew. And as I said, it's not like I want paizo to overhaul the class completely and make something new that has nothing to do with playtest necromancer, just adding a single sentence would basically solve all my problems.

I like almost everything what I read about the playtest necromancer, especially the awesome thrall mechanics. Except that it is always occult and I just don't see any mechanical or thematical reason why it has to be this way. The occult necromancer is a concept that should be playable, but so is the divine, arcane or primal one. A primal necromancer especially would be so cool and unique. And simply adding an additional subclass that changes your spell tradition would take very little design and page space, so those who only want occult necromancers wouldn't really loose anything,while others would have options for so many new character concepts.

I hope we get more psychic conscious mind options in the future. A toxikinesis focused one that heavily buffs puff of poison into something that isn't complete trash and gives you other options to psychically manipulate poisons and deal poison damage would be awesome and super unique. A healing focused one or one focused on sound and sonic damage would be cool too, as would be having WIS based subconscious minds.

_shredder_ wrote:

Legacy ancestors oracle was quite objectively one of the worst subclasses in the system, but it was also probably the mechanically most fun build I ever played here. I loved going all in on the curse and letting the ancestors decide how my character plays every turn. My big hope was that remaster would keep everything that was so incredibly cool and unique about ancestors oracle and its playstyle while making the passive benefits stronger.

From what it looks like the exact opposite happened - all the flavorful ancestor mechanics are gone, and ancestor will now play very similar to other oracles and divine sorcs, while still being not all that good due to getting one of more punishing curses.

While legacy ancestors oracle wasn't perfectly designed, it did an amazing job at making me actually feel like my character is possessed by their ancestors. Mechanics and flavor worked perfectly together. I don't care that the mystery is probably stronger on average now, having as many slots as a sorcerer and becoming clumsy after using a strong spell like ability has just nothing to do with what made ancestors oracle appealing to me in any way.

The old "roll 1d4 and see what you're this round" still exists but as a cursebound feat.

So, if you liked that flavour, you can still do it.

It's just that objectively it was bad to leave it as a chance what to do each round, so I don't think many will be picking said feat.

The cursebound feat meddling futures is absolutely terrible (especially compared to other powerful cursebound feats) and even more punishing and less rewarding than the ancestors curse was, and you have to use it every turn if you want that flavorful mechanic instead of it just being an always on thing that gives you passive benefits, which is extremely restricting and makes the class way more repetitive. My previous ancestors oracle also used a bow to strike when possesed by a warrior ancestor, and becoming clumsier ever round completely kills that type of build - if you want to hit anything with strikes while cursed you need to use melee weapons and prioritize STR now (and enter melee combat with ridiculously bad AC due to clumsy).

An ancestors oracle that picks up one of the many good oracle feats instead of meddling futures, never makes weapon strikes, never interacts with the ancestors mechanic and mostly plays like a normal divine caster with a strong damage focus spell (ancestral touch got a big buff) is absolutely not weak and much stronger than the ancestor oracle I played, but that's just not very interesting to me.

An ancestors oracle who plays fully into the curse and rolls dice to decide which action to take this turn (like the oracle I loved playing) is even weaker than it was before and went from "really not good but you can kinda make it work if you try" to an absolutely awful option.

Legacy ancestors oracle was quite objectively one of the worst subclasses in the system, but it was also probably the mechanically most fun build I ever played here. I loved going all in on the curse and letting the ancestors decide how my character plays every turn. My big hope was that remaster would keep everything that was so incredibly cool and unique about ancestors oracle and its playstyle while making the passive benefits stronger.

From what it looks like the exact opposite happened - all the flavorful ancestor mechanics are gone, and ancestor will now play very similar to other oracles and divine sorcs, while still being not all that good due to getting one of more punishing curses.

While legacy ancestors oracle wasn't perfectly designed, it did an amazing job at making me actually feel like my character is possessed by their ancestors. Mechanics and flavor worked perfectly together. I don't care that the mystery is probably stronger on average now, having as many slots as a sorcerer and becoming clumsy after using a strong spell like ability has just nothing to do with what made ancestors oracle appealing to me in any way.

The monks spade is such a cool weapon and pf1 had mechanics for it, so I hope it will return at some point. Maybe as a 2h 1d8B polearm with the monk, reach, versatile S and shove traits.

_shredder_ wrote:

This could be maybe solved with a general class archetype, but I don't like that every dedicated skill user (mainly rogue and investigator, tome thaumaturge, inventor and commander to a lesser degree) is a martial. I would really enjoy playing a full caster who trades some casting power for being an actual skill monkey.

There are Intelligence-based casters, at least.

I was about to propose a Minky Momo-style profession-swapping magical girl as a concept for a skillmonkey/caster, but I guess that's what the Imperial Bloodline Sorcerer is already.

Getting a lot of trained skills doesn't really make you a skill monkey past lv1 in this system, getting more skills up to expert/master/legendary does. I was thinking of a someone who gets the same extra skill feats and skill increases as a rogue/investigator, while fighting with spells and mental power instead of making weapon strikes.

This could be maybe solved with a general class archetype, but I don't like that every dedicated skill user (mainly rogue and investigator, tome thaumaturge, inventor and commander to a lesser degree) is a martial. I would really enjoy playing a full caster who trades some casting power for being an actual skill monkey.

A non-magical, non-striking pure support character who is useful just through their great mental abilities is something I always wanted to play in this system. So I'm still super hyped, even if the detail that the class partly relies on daily preparations has dampened my interest a bit as I never really enjoy these types of mechanics.

I hope the commands of the commander will basically be a much better version of to battle from the marshall archetype, letting the commander spend actions to let allies do stuff outside of their turn without using uo their reaction.

My big hope is that I will be able to build a commander as a pure backline support who doesn't own weapons, has weak physical stats and never makes strikes, and instead just passes around buffs and free actions, like a nonmagical INT bard. That would instantly be one of my favorite classes in the game.

I wish the monks speed boost was an untyped bonus instead of a status bonus. It kinda annoys me that you can use longstrider on a fighter to make them just as fast as a monk, but you can't use longstrider to make the monk even faster.

Are there any new feats for other classes besides summoner and barbarian? I kinda hoped for new elemental monk stances like rain of embers.

I already planned a conrasu wood geniekin wood kineticist to go all in on the tree theme.

A spell that lets me roll d20s for damage. I don't care if it heightens at +2 and is just a worse version of a d10 spell that heightens at +1. I just want to roll the big dice as often as possible.

An awakened ostrich aerokineticist who just really wants to fly

I really hope to see Locathah in the upcoming tianxian book!

_shredder_ wrote:

A martial finesse monk sword.

With Ancestral Weaponry you can add the monk trait to the

• dogslicer (Goblin)

• Elven curve blade (Elf)

or

• Tengu Gale Blade (Tengu)

all of which are martial, finesse swords.

There's Adopted Ancestry if your character's ancestry doesn't match that of the sword you want to use.

I know about these options, I just don't find them satisfying - mostly because they are not functional at lv1, limit character options and ancestral weaponry is an additional feat tax. What I want is neither mechanically all that powerful, nor thematically weird - to me the finesse monk was always the most common monk, so its strange that something like a temple sword STR monk is super straightforward to build, but if you want to use a finesse sword instead you have to jump through multiple hoops, wait at least a level and be a member of or adopted by the right ancestry.

A martial finesse monk sword.

Changing the damage type of your weapon is something that is key to the weapon inventor fantasy for me and completely missing right now: Let me turn a shortbow into an acid blaster that never deals boring piercing damage, only acid. Let me turn a generic greatsword into a pure wieldable flame that only deals fire damage. I want the weapon created by my weapon inventor to be truly unlike anything a non-inventor can wield, not just a normal weapon with an extra trait. The option to deal pure energy damage through weapons would help with that a lot.

A true magical skill monkey: A caster whi sacrifices slots for rogue-style skill proficiencies and extra feats. Could maybe work as a class archetype?

I can't wait to find out if I will be finally able to play an acid blaster with decent single target damage! The playtest analysis made a bit worried since I'm all about destruction, don't care much about pyrokineticists (there are already so many fire options) and think that blasting cold, electricity and especially acid is inherently more awesome than throwing physical stuff around like a normal martial weapon user,but I'm still hopefull for the final class.

New monsters that have elemental weaknesses that aren't fire or cold.

While being able to blast cold and lightning (and poison) is definitely important, I mostly care about blasting acid, it's my favorite damage type and so far completely neglected by pf2e. The final kineticist would be the perfect opportunity to give us the option to play an acid blaster.

Besides kineticist, medium is the pf1 class I miss most in pf2e. Ancestors oracle is just not the same at all.

Chaotic and lawful sorcerer bloodlines

Elemental and abberation eidolons

A swarm eidolon/companion/archetype

My biggest gripe with paizos golarion is how human centric it is, a trope that I never liked in any fantasy media with multiple intelligent ancestries. I find fantasy much more interesting were humans are neither especially common nor especially well liked or influential compared to other ancestries. I was especially disappointed when I read that even absalom is like 80% human, when I always imagened absalom as a fantasy metropolis where all kinds of cultures exist right next to each other, where it's normal to see a conrasu barkeeper or a strix courier and small parts of the city are almost entirely controlles by sprites or poppets.
But it's not a big deal, I just add NPCs to adventures to make uncommon/rare ancestries seem more common and slightly change the lore.

Other elemental monk stances like cobra and rain of embers would be awesome. Let me punch someone with 100% acid, cold or lightning damage!

I still hope for Locathah, these goofy fishes were my favorite 5e race and what I miss the most from that game besides the swarmkeeper. Azarketi are kinda boring, and a reflavoured azarketi beastkin is just not satisfying, they don't really get fishy feats/heritages and the wrong ability boosts. Locathah are cool and unique because they're 100% fish and 0% mammal.

Also a plasmoid/ooze ancestry, but at least we will get one from battlezoo next year.

A way to play a character who dumps both STR and DEX and doesn't suck.

More cold options are also very welcome, but at least cold gets a good cantrip, themed subclasses and unique focus spells. There aren't enough ice spells, but most of the ones that exist are at least good. There is no acid AoE blast nearly as good as cone of cold or even just chilling spray. You can play a winter witch, prepare mostly thematic cold spells and be effective, while there is absolutely no such option for acid.

Something like a swarm of eusocial insects would be really cool. Like a beehive who acts as 1 character but gets abilities like dispersing, precision resistance and other typical swarm abilities.

It would be cool if you could play a character like Ben10 who goes all in on assuming different battleforms, without any spellcasting taking up the power budget.

An acid themed subclass. A focus spell that deals acid damage (I don't really count dragons breath because it's not uniquely acid-y).

At this point it just feels like paizo hates me specifically for thinking acid damage is epic and fire damage is overused and kinda boring. There are so many fire options and they just get more and more (oracle just got a second fire themed mystery) while acid just gets nothing good and for the most part nothing at all. Just why?

A way to play a character with all mental stats higher than 14 and all physical stats lower than 14 without feeling like I'm nerfing my character to the ground. STR monks and switch hitters with non-finesse thrown/combination weapons are already heavily encouraged by the system to pump up all physical stats and dump all mental stats and are still fine to play even if the bad will saves hurt a bit. A monk with 8INT, 8CHA and 12WIS can be very effective. Meanwhile a sorcerer with 8STR, 12DEX and 8CON is just asking to be oneshotted by a random mook.

Physically weak, mentally strong characters are always my favorites in media and I would love to play one in pf2e. But every caster I play has at least 14DEX (often 16) and 12CON, because I don't want them to suck, even though that often doesn't really make sense for these characters (why should a wizard who spend basically his whole life sitting in a library have a higher DEX than a commoner or even most STR focused martials?).

_shredder_ wrote:

A "caster" who isn't versatile in the slightest and has no spellslots and no support, control or AoE abilities but can shoot powerful energy beams every turn with fighter accuracy. A true single target blaster caster who fills the same role in a party as a ranged martial - the playtest analysis makes me very sure that the kineticist won't be able to fulfill this fantasy. I don't want to control the elements and do cool avatar stuff, I just want to go pew pew pew with magic all the time like wizard kirby or the magikoopas from super mario.

A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.

For the first I won't ask for an example, because that's the pattern of too many superheroes to count. I will say that I'm more hopeful that kineticist will provide some of that experience than you are. They did at least say that they would try.

For the second, could you offer an example of that kind of character out in the field?

For a specific media example, Golden Sun: The last epoch is one of my favorite fanrasy video ganes of all time. Kraden the scholar is your fith party member and a frail old man who isn't connected to elemental magic like the rest of the group and can probably barely lift a weapon, but is still an important party member because of his vast knowledge, life experience and strategic expertise.

For a more general example, think if the typical sidekick/assistant character who looks weak next to the hero but is just as important for the story in the end.

Mechanically I imagine such a class as an investigator who can choose to be INT, WIS or CHA based, can devise a strategem only for allies using their attack/spell attack modifier and trades weapon proficiencies and defense for mundane buff abilities that work similar to the bards composition cantrips. Such a character would excell at aiding others as well as using Bon Mot and would get similar feats to debuff other saves.

A "caster" who isn't versatile in the slightest and has no spellslots and no support, control or AoE abilities but can shoot powerful energy beams every turn with fighter accuracy. A true single target blaster caster who fills the same role in a party as a ranged martial - the playtest analysis makes me very sure that the kineticist won't be able to fulfill this fantasy. I don't want to control the elements and do cool avatar stuff, I just want to go pew pew pew with magic all the time like wizard kirby or the magikoopas from super mario.

A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.

The kasesh from impossible lands are probably my favorite pf2e design ever, and rage of the elements would be the perfect opportunity to make these lovely earth elementals playable.

That might be a fun angle, actually - framing this talk as "what characters do you wish you could make, but currently can't?"

The biggest one for me would be Octavia from the kingmaker crpg - she is an eldritch trickster rogue who never had a weapon equipped when I played her and sneak attacked with her acid cantrip almost every turn, dealing good damage with the same accuracy as an archer. This is exactly what I always wanted to play in pf2e, a glass cannon weaponless ranged martial with the aesthetics of a caster. A more magical than martial character who is not versatile at all and can't cast any big high level spells (I would prefer a design without any spellslots), but can shoot really powerful energy beams at single targets.

A redesigned eldritch trickster racket could fulfill this fantasy, maybe even the kineticist, although my hopes arent that high for that class after the playtest analysis. It feels like paizo hates the idea of a purely magical single target damage focused character and wants all casters to be either versatile generalists with control, AoE and support abilities (like the kineticist) or gishes who attack with a weapon, and I don't know why.

Imperial dragons are my favourite dragons. Do kobolds related to imperial dragons look different? Can they fly without growing wings?

Please don't force physical damage on non-fire kineticists. Let us blast actual energy right from level 1, every turn. Give us the option to play a 100% cold focused water kineticist who never deals boring bludgeoning damage and lightning, poison and acid options for air/metal, wood and earth. Blasting acid sounds just a million times more awesome to me than throwing rocks around.

I also hope that the differences between the elements aren't that big. I'm pretty much only interested in destruction but find fire thematically less interesting than all other elements, so I hope water, wood or air will also be able to deal decent damage and don't shoehorn you into a specific playstyle.

I always wanted to play a single target acidblaster in pf2e and I really hope that rage of elements will finally give me that option. I don't care the slightest bit about control, support and AoE, I just want to blast acid every turn like Octavia in kingmaker and be as powerful and accurate as an archer. But the playtest analysis makes me worried that the final version will still be way too much of a generalist to fulfill this fantasy and have caster accuracy (just without true strike or any buff spells).