kinglouis2005's page

Old thread but Id like to get in on this too.

Also have Hero Lab and would be fun to create PC's or NPC's to your specs give us a shout. Also if you have some short stories with PFS PC's you would like to share by all means email us!

Our Homepage

Here is a short story, let me know what you think and would LOVE some contributions!

The Chaos of Violence

kinglouis2005 wrote:

Anything wrong with the build in question? Or any mistakes on my part?

It won't work for me as the entire point around my character was wanting a worg companion. If you meant "this is a build for myself, how does it look?" then sorry, I didn't look at it that closely as it didn't have a worg in it.

Yeah I was just brainstorming my own build, didnt really think about a Worg build.

You have no idea how many times I've considered the possibilities of just going entirely with Teamwork feats :P

The issue of course being that some of them require standard feats as prereqs, and most of them are "link" abilities that facilitate or enhance actions you need normal feats for.

Wonder why more people do not go this route.

To me I read that as ALL teamwork feats my Hunter takes my Pet automatically learns, regardless if they were part of my freebies that I get at 3rd, 6th, 9th etc.. or part of the feats I get every other level.So early on I stay away from "individual" feats and get my pet the following:

1st level Combat Expertise(needed for Pack Flanking)
2nd level Outflank (freebie at 2nd)
3rd level (freebie feat)Precise Strike, (normal progression)Pack Flanking

So at 3rd level I have my Greatsword Wielding Hunter swinging for 2d6 normal damage and adding 1d6 when I am flanking, which just got a whole lot easier due to Pack Flanking all at a +4 to hit b/c of Outflank.

And the way precise strike is written "Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same the creature, you deal an additional 1d6 points of precision damage with each successful melee attack" means to me that if you have a critter with 2+ attacks you get an addition 1d6 per each hit. So even a Pet at 2 attacks per round for 1d4 is now at 1d4+1d6 2x's per round.

Int 3 means your AC can take any feats, not just the ones from the AC list. If it's a Bodyguard, you can get some good feats without Int 3.

Ok thanks for clarifying

I wouldn't dip rogue. You'll lose BaB, spellcasting, and have to take Boon companion to keep your pet up. If you really want a second Sneak Attack die, I'd take Brawler(Snakebite Striker), which *could* let you lower your Int so and still get Combat Reflexes. But I'd stick with straight Hunter, you're not likely to be hurting for damage.

For PFS, you definitely still need the regular tricks even for Int 3.

Wow, Leech is an editing fail. "this bleed stacks with itself...Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself." Classy.

Good point I didn't consider all I would be giving up for the sake of another d6 Most importantly the animal keeping pace.

And yeah on the wording of that leech ability, not to mention no one seems to know if the Skirmisher tricks are unlimited or limited by Wis/Level for the AC.

Thanks for the heads up on the tricks, let me ask any benefit to having the AC at INT 3 since tricks still need to be learned?

Ok tell me what you think-
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 7
Human +2 bonus to Str, Eye for talent, verminous hunter archetype
Mantis gets +2 Int for the Eye for talent, Feat Combat Expertise

By 4th level Outflank, Pack Flanking, Precise Strike, bump up Mantis to Int 3.

I am by no means an expert but going by some general assumptions:
Mantis gets 2 attacks with claws (plus grab)+ Precise Strike would be Pet Mantis getting 1d4+1d6 2x's per round with 2 grab opportunities (tack on leech vermin focus for an extra point of bleed damage) with a +4 to hit so long as we are flanking which got easier with Pack Flanking

Hunter with greatsword is getting 2d6 for the greatsword and an additional 1d6 for the Precise strike, if he had time to get cast lead blades he is getting 3d6 for the great sword.

If Hunter takes a 1 level dip into rogue he gets the 2d6 for the greatsword, 1d6 for precise strike and 1d6 for sneak attack. If he adds lead blades that another d6.

So to recap at 4th level the hunter in question (assuming he is flanking with his buddy) +8 to hit 3d6+6 dice of damage, with lead blades 4d6 dice of damage.

At 5th level with a 1 level dip into rogue you get another feat (power attack?) and now if flanking and power attacking you are at +7 to hit +8 to damage 4d6 (2d6 base, 1d6 precise strike, 1d6 sneak)dice of damage with the greatsword, 5d6 if using lead blades all the while the mantis pet is clawing and grabbing for 1d4+1d6 2x's per round.

Anything wrong with the build in question? Or any mistakes on my part?

Sorry for rambling. :)

also at an INT of 3 for the animal companion does it still need to learn tricks or can it just start learning the skirmish tricks available to it?

Finally does anyone know the bleed rules for the leech vermin focus? they seem to be worded rather strangely.

Leech: The creature gains a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks, and deals 1 point of bleed damage every time it succeeds at a grapple combat maneuver check to damage an opponent (this bleed stacks with itself ). These benefits increase to a +4 bonus and 3 points of bleed at 8th level, and a +6 bonus and 5 points of bleed at 15th level. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself.

kinglouis2005 wrote:

It makes no sense to purchase the same product twice from HL and from Paizo for exactly the same information. HL and Paizo either need to work together or not, no way in hell am I going to purchase the same information twice. Granted I have several pieces of material on hand but there is an item or 2 I purchased on HL. If this is not the case maybe they should offer some affiliate income to HL for the sale of Paizo products, charge for licensing or maybe even come out with their own online tool.

My idea of fun (as a new player) is not thumbing through several books or browsing through multiple PDF's in order to put together a PC that will comply with PFS rules.

Thats my 2 copper.

You're not purchasing the same product twice. Paizo is selling rules and setting material, Herolab is selling modules for a character generator. If you find paying for Herolab modules to be unacceptable you have two choices.

1. Handcode it all yourself.
2. Switch to PCGen and accept a slower rate, limited support, and less coverage.

The rules are integrated into the PC as you generate them along with explanation. But you probably already knew this.

I have no issue with Hero Labs, I love it to be honest. Makes building a PC a breeze!

And I have more choices than 2, keep doing what I am doing, go back to just core rules and the other books I do have or go to the weekly D and D 3.5 games instead of the bi monthly PFS games at the same location.

I am arguing for a solution that has the usability of Hero Labs and the legality of the PFS gameplay. Everyone seems resistant to the idea of doing a little work which certainly will pay off in the long run.

See some of my points above to understand my POV.

Anyway as I mentioned on another post, no one in this thread can make that change, it comes down to what Paizo and HL wants to do going forward. I emailed Hero Lab and offered the suggestion and maybe they listen, maybe not. Either way I am having fun playing my PC's and I guess if I get called out for having an illegal PC then I will cross that bridge when I get to it, until then I will continue to play them without the PDF's. :)

I guess you are misunderstanding my point.

A couple of things of note based on my experiences and browsing the forum today.

It seems that most DM's have no desire to be the Paizo police so unless they are unclear about a rule they dont ask for a PDF. Yes it happens but some have clearly stated on this very forum they dont care to check and I have seen that in person too.

It is clear many people dont realize that certain items are not "legal" for play even though the rules are available. I didnt until this thread. The only rules I worried about were the rules of playing my PC, so I AM a new "complainer" and I would guess more are not aware and would complain if they know and of course there is a group that wont complain at all but still dont agree. As it is there are plenty of people who are complaining.

It would not be about helping Hero Lab selling product but as a matter of fact they are doing just that by pushing the product on their very own site. The truth is they make something from the data, great! They also want to move the PDF's, great! You can do both in one spot with a little bit of effort.

Now you have compliant PC's (whether they use the PDF or not) and the customer has an easy and convenient way to get all the information they need to make a PC quickly and get the correct products in the unusual event that some DM (who is trying to grow his tables, not shrink them) asks for a PDF to verify a rule.

I want to restate that I dont believe that Paizo should bite the bullet on price, but it still is better to get part of something as opposed to all of nothing, which apparently is going on quite often. I am not opposed to them profiting and I have never stated once that cost was an issue.

kinglouis2005 wrote:

Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.

That sounds simple. It isn't.

First, Paizo and HL would have to work out exactly how much those 'additional cost's and 'extra $$$' are, and how much of each goes to each company. Both have an incentive to keep the overall cost down and keep the lion's share of the profit. And keep in mind that Paizo doesn't run PFS to generate revenue for HeroLab.

Then Paizo's tech people and HL's tech people would have to modify their order processing systems to accommodate adding PDFs at HeroLab's request, with sufficient security to avoid spoofing, and enough accountability to figure out who owes how much money at the end of the month. (I can guarantee you that Paizo will never allow their PDFs to be emailed directly or downloaded from a third party.)

Then both companies would have to deal with any customer service complications that come from spanning two companies, like HeroLab customers who gave the wrong Paizo.com account and can't access their PDF. Or who want a refund from one company or the other.

That sounds like an awful lot of work to save you $3.

Its a one and done situation, again I am in internet marketing and we make changes all the time and YES we are partnering with a company that wants our physical product in addition to their information product, working out the price was easy, working out the logistics a bit harder but once done its done. Then we have fulfillment of a physical product and all the hassle that goes with shipping and receiving.

So yeah I understand its not like snapping your fingers if they insist on having a Paizo watermark, or they could have a database with HL watermarks that are shared between companies without the issue of having to log in to our accounts etc...

There are a number of ways this can be worked out and yes it takes work and no its not about $3. Not once have I mentioned price at all. Its just money really which is simply a tool.

Its about convenience and having the "feeling" of buying the same product twice when the truth is it doesn't get checked that often anyway.

I am a "can do" person when it comes to business and service, not the other way around. Its ok to oppose my opinion but it seems to be a pretty prevalent situation based on other threads I have read. They may as well make money from it.

Come to our tables.

We don't ask on everything, but there are a few we ask on.

Ive never tried to play anything exotic but every now and again I might. Most fly under the radar.

But this thread is becoming unproductive, maybe Paizo looks into maybe not, maybe Hero Labs does maybe not. I went ahead an emailed Lone Wolf Development suggesting a PFS friendly product at an upgraded cost which still allows non PFS player to buy it the way it is now.

Maybe they will listen. Who knows.

kinglouis2005 wrote:

I understand that being 2 different companies presents some challenges but again I have a simple solution.

Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.

Technologically, if it were going to happen, it would have to be the other way around. Because of how watermarking works with paizo pdfs, what you are talking about would mean that Herolab buyers would have to give Hero Lab their Paizo account numbers and passwords. It would also add a huge vulnerablity to Paizo's electronic purchasing system if anyone figured out how to spoof HL's pdf request system.

Hero lab could far more easily dispatch a batch of license keys to paizo, as they do for the basic set. That would still leave a lot of questions on how to share the proceeds. Especially since hero lab's model is "make the base technology cheap / free so we can sell lots of expensive add ons."

Excellent another great solution.

I was definitely being sarcastic but I hope you caught my not so subtle point.

Even reviewing the other threads most DM's are not the copyright police nor are they the "do you own this pdf" police. They ask for the PDF to confirm an effect and that is pretty much it.

So all over the world DM's are happily DM'ng without a care, players are happily playing except for the off chance something new comes up that a DM is not aware of.

I am offering solutions that will generate revenue and will have users of HL be proactive. If they dont want to make a simple fix, then everyone will keep doing what they are doing.

No, you are talking about two *seperate* companies, neither of whom have a terribly advanced or robust purchasing system, merging their purchasing stream, such that one company sells licenses for both companies products... They would also need to negotiate who eats how much of the discount.

These are both things that would be relatively trivial if hero lab were developed in house. In practice they are very hard when two separate corporate entities try to do them. I am glad that your company was able to do it, but not every company can.

I understand that being 2 different companies presents some challenges but again I have a simple solution.

Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.

There is not much in the way of crossing streams. No need to integrate any more than they already are, again its just a PDF we are talking about.

I want to be legal I dont mind paying but truth be told most GM's I deal with know the rules and as of yet I have not been asked once for a rule clarification.

So my Catfolk Ranger is happily riding away on his permanently hasted Trex with no issues so far. :)

But if the option to upgrade were available I would gladly do it. Make it easy for me Paizo.

kinglouis2005 wrote:

EDIT- Several replies came in while I was posting, some even offering legitimate suggestions! They are not generating enough revenue? Ask HL for more, then they will raise the price, no biggie!! Ill pay it.

Unfortunately, the fact that you would pay for such a deal doesn't make it that everyone would. Some people don't purchase the PDFs and do purchase the Hero Lab content, and they wouldn't appreciate having to pay a higher price to get those PDFs that they don't really want. It could be possible that they already own hard copies of the books.

Like I said, there could be some kind of combo deal available for it, but I don't see that happening. You can get both products quite easily as is.

Why wouldn't it? I am not saying eliminate what they have just add a PFS friendly combo.

And the fact that this DOES come up frequently should be a clear indicator that maybe it should be looked into. They are selling the product on their very site, the product generates revenue for the company. Adding another option would be very simple.

As I said internet marketing IS what I do. I sell nutritional products, about 7 of them in fact. When a combo package of 2 different items was created our sales went UP. Sure we took a smaller profit for each product but had bigger sales. Now we have customers buying 2 products at a discount instead of just one at regular price.

Another point is I am in EXACTLY the same position as Paizo is with the products. We are (on a separate site) pushing an information product for a 3rd party that also includes one of my supplements. The order is placed and I get the order, process it send them the supplement and they get the information via DVD and PDF. All in one place.

Its not rocket science, in fact this situation is much easier than mine because there is not a physical product to worry about.

Finally, I think they are missing the boat. I think there will be home players or casual players that WOULD pay for the upgrade just in case they want to go to a PFS table.

All we are talking about is an optional button and delivery of a PDF for Christs sake, even if it IS at an extra cost.

PS- Thanks for those that have chimed in I appreciate the feedback.

Whim? Lets back up for a second.
Dont have to be a jerk about this, I am having a discussion about an issue that is easily corrected.

1- PDF's are easy to create and already created for those not using HL

2- Paizo is being paid for their work, not once did I say that they dont deserve revenue for their work, that is why early on I asked the question.

3- They sell Hero Lab right here, Hero Lab cannot sell their products without compensation, if they need a bigger cut to compensate for some small revenue loss then by all means renegotiate the deal and get a bigger cut.

4- I work in internet marketing, rule #1 is make it EASY for the customer. Having rules all over the place is bad business, making customers buy the same data in multiple locations is bad business.

I dont mind paying, I go out of my way to support Paizo by buying books, buying mini's and what not. I go out of my way to make book store owners happy to see a notoriously frugal crowd. I buy products and mini's from them every time I visit. I buy their soft drinks and snacks to give them revenue.
I go out of my way to improve the GM's and other players games, often buying the whole table beverages, which also helps the business owner.

I dont agree with the practice, its a bad one. The goal should always be to make the product better and the buying experience better, the way they have it set up its not.

EDIT- Several replies came in while I was posting, some even offering legitimate suggestions! They are not generating enough revenue? Ask HL for more, then they will raise the price, no biggie!! Ill pay it.

PDF's a problem for DM's? simple, supply a PDF along with the data package. Last time I checked the US Postal service does not charge to deliver me an email. :)

Simple fix then, when a data package is purchased, provide the PDF via email!

Its not rocket science, they are already getting paid for the product.

Thanks for all the input. Yes I know gret PC's can be made from the Core rulebook, I used that and it was fun.

That is what led me to buy more books Like the Inner Sea guide. Then I heard about Hero Lab and found it to be accurate.

I want to address some of the other points too. If HL is using PF material, arent they REQUIRED to have some sort of permission? They are literally using their product to sell their product.

HL does have an option for PFS play, you select that option all the PFS legal feats, classes, races are selectable and those that arent show up but cannot be selected. As far as errors, there are errors in PDF's, Character sheets etc. too, there are also revisions. HL updates files all the time, 1st thing it does when you load it is search for updates.

I am curious to understand the business relationship between HL and Paizo.

EDIT- Well isnt this cute? http://paizo.com/products/btpy7wo1?Hero-Lab SMH

(more info directly from the Lone Wolf Forums)
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=45153

They do get a royalty every time I buy a package from HL and then would like me to buy the PDF too to be "legal"

Legal for what? Do we win prize money if we win a teh Pathfinder?

I understand they want to generate revenue but they ARE generating revenue when I buy the upgrade.

Belafon wrote:

From another thread:

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Hero Lab is a third party product, and not an approved Additional Resource for PFS play.

Which is to say that it is a wonderful tool but possessing a license for a Hero Lab data package is NOT a substitute for having the Additional Resource in print or signed pdf form. Even if you have the "Player Companion #8" package for Hero Lab you must still have a copy of the "Blood of Angels" Paizo book in order to use material from it.

You are still welcome to use Hero Lab to help in creating your character as long as you can derive all your information (AC, saves, skills, hit modifiers, etc.) without it as well - Hero Lab does make some errors. Remember your chronicles are your official records.

Yes, this is what I meant, sorry. You cant show up and say 'but I bought it on HeroLab' and use that as your resource. It doesnt count in that regard.

Wow well thats pretty ridiculous. I was under the impression that HL should have some sort of license to repurpose PFS material and if they do then Paizo should have seen some benefit, either up front or on a per purchase basis.

It makes no sense to purchase the same product twice from HL and from Paizo for exactly the same information. HL and Paizo either need to work together or not, no way in hell am I going to purchase the same information twice. Granted I have several pieces of material on hand but there is an item or 2 I purchased on HL. If this is not the case maybe they should offer some affiliate income to HL for the sale of Paizo products, charge for licensing or maybe even come out with their own online tool.

My idea of fun (as a new player) is not thumbing through several books or browsing through multiple PDF's in order to put together a PC that will comply with PFS rules.

Thats my 2 copper.

Walter Sheppard wrote:

The section on Character Creation in the Guide is what you'll want to direct your players towards. Players can use anything that's listed as legal in the Additional Resources provided they can present that resource to you as GM (physical copy or PDF) when you have questions regarding it.

What he said.

And before they even mention it, the PRD/D20PFSRD/Archives of Nethys/ HeroLab are NOT legal sources to get stuff from.

And to answer your question specifically, YES, both of those are perfectly legal to play, with the assumption that they own the necessary products. :)

Might be wrong and often am but Hero lab has a checkbox you can click if you are using society rules and it automatically only provides the resources that ARE legal. When building a PC using HL I can SEE many other options but they are all Greyed out since they are illegal for PFS play.

It has made life so easy for me to build a PC and so far no issues.

Thanks for the summary. I was in the same boat, playing since August know there are factions, know they have differing outlooks but not understanding the big picture very well. Season 5 has made it pretty easy, "stop critters from taking over" but had no idea about the other seasons.

Sniggevert wrote:

If you have to ask that, you obviously haven't paid attention to anything the OP has said

Or I did and didn't agree with it, that's possible too you know. The listed benefit doesn't seem to be worth a character class.

Not sure I follow?

Role playing can be as fun as roll playing even though most games have a bit of both.

I see nothing wrong with being an armored support type character that can grant teamwork feats as well as bonuses of all types to party characters.

But you are entitled to disagree but I dont think its fun if the party has a PC that is constantly one shotting his way through every encounter in a game.

The most fun I have had in PFS is when everyone gets to contribute in some way and just on the surface a Cavalier looks like a great PC for contributing in most situations without dominating every scene.

Now if I was playing solo then I would definitely be looking to maximize damage every time since I would have no one but myself to rely on.

PRD link

PRD wrote:

Animal Choices

Each animal companion has different starting sizes, speed, attacks, ability scores, and special qualities. All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier. Some have special abilities, such as scent. See Special Abilities for more information on these abilities. As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.

Great find, thanks a bunch for the info!!

Thanks for the reply. I looked at order of the paw but decided against it because then it reduces my chances to directly aid the party.

(My son is playing a human tetori monk as a pro wrestler and Im going to act as his "hype man"/manager)

I want to be able to buff the party some and make use of the neat teamwork feats thats why I went dragon.

I had NO idea the mounts can remain medium!! Do the stats improve or simply remain the same? I am guessing even if they remain the same they still advance in level and HP and all that right?

Thanks again for the feedback!

David Bowles wrote:

Did anyone ever claim that they did? Paladins work just fine without their mounts, too. And druids work just fine without pets.

I actually get quite a lot of people who believe Cavaliers aren't worth the time without their mounts.

I have read many of the same criticisms abut even though I am a new player I think we are missing something.

I too think they are pretty good at melee, they can wear just about any armor and can use just about any weapon. They get cool support features that your party will love you for and to get around the dungeon issue you can get a small sized cavalier.

I rolled up a halfling but not sure how to optimize him. I want him to be fairly support style but capable of riding my wolf (and later Boar in case the wolf gets too big) into combat.

So let me ask this of those that run halfling type cavaliers, how do I optimize?

Currently I bumped my CHA to take advantage of intimidate and diplomacy, I have order of the dragon for the cool support buffs and I have not selected an archetype although I looked at Beat rider. Problem is most upgraded mounts are large so then its back to the dungeon crawl issue, so I am thinking it is not worth doing.

Anyway, I know that I wont be getting a charge alot but in a 5 foot corridor, if I am in the lead position I can get it pretty often and the higher level I go, the more punishment that charge deals out. Then they enemy has to contend with an armored Halfling swinging a sword off the top of a biting wolf.