The Druidic magic is based on Balance and through this, being a part of the world. Your mythic Druid may personally be above all that, but unless they have the mythic allignment cheat for themselves, his misaligned followers just won't have the mindset to be Druids, no matter how willing your mythic Druid is willing to provide them with magic. Even if they worship a god, they are not merely clerics with another powerset. Ah, memories of the great Godlearner heresies of days gone by.
True, their druids will have to be two of the four alignments allowed, but for druids other than Nature Priests, following a god is more like paying homage than asking for power/blessings anyway. Then again, Gorum makes it possible for his druids to wear metal armor (within limitations), so a deity could potentially allow extreme-aligned druids with some limitations (like reduced effective level or spellcasting), but that would strictly be homebrew territory.
Set seems to have nailed it: the deity will either be so unhappy with non-balanced worshipers that they refusde to empower clerics/warpriests/paladins of those alignments, or see the act as necessary to spread the word. Given the precedent with Kelksiomides having no restriction on followers beyond the usual, it seems divinity, no matter how small, is above such "trivial" matters as balance.
What I mean is that druids care about more than just nature: in this case balance in all (or at least most) things, i.e. being at least partially neutral in alignment.
For example: Kelksiomides is a NG druid 16/marshal 5 with Divine Source (Good, Plant), claming gardens, orchards, and terraces as his portfolio. Obviously he'd welcome any LG, NG, CG, or TN follower that holds these aspects in high regard, but as a druid, he should technically be predisposed to favor his NG and TN followers over the LG and CG ones, as they go against the idea of "balance" held by most druids.
Let's say you have a deity that is very druidic in their dogma, like a mythic druid with Divine Source, but their alignment isn't TN. What would you say is their view on followers outside of the druidic alignments?
Would LN or NG druidic deities actively sponsor paladins, code and all? There's the forest preserver and wilderness warden archetypes, after all. What about NE or CN ones actively sponsoring antipaladins? There's not really a pro-nature archetype, as the blighted myrmidon is anti-nature, but it is similar enough to the blight druid archetype and the siabrae template that at least some argument could be made for that archetype.
I guess this is kind of the inverse of druids worshiping extreme-aligned deties like Erastil or Rovagug for their natural aspects (farming and hunting, and disaster, respectively), or Desna for... stars and travel? I never got why Desna attracts a notable druidic following, or Achaekek and Zon-Kuthon for that matter. In fact, excluding nature or nature-related deities, there seem to be more cases of 'this deity has druidic followers' among extreme-aligned deities than there are among neutral-aligned deities. Granted, often it is just a single druidic circle (like the Uskwood Circle for Zon-Kuthon), but still...
Paizo seems to have a design philosophy, when it comes to NPCs or sample PCs, that avoids anything more than a modest amount of optimization.
I figure that it's mostly to keep "things a GM is going to have to look up" to a minimum. But "Dual Path" is just a feat, it's not represented on the character sheet anywhere else. So without access to the character sheet's for the Old Mage, I can't say for sure he didn't have a second path.
I know Baba Yaga didn't, since I've seen her sheet.
Ah, so I'd have to hunt down the character sheets, as I feared.
Yes, but even then, having the mystic theurge be dual-pathed is hardly above a modest amount of optimization, given that it is a mystic theurge...
And I realize that a mythic character has only one path, but the flavor text literally says "You follow two mythic paths", so I don't think denoting the "minor" path in parantheses would hurt all that much.
It just occurred to me that all canon mythic characters (that I could find), such as Old-Mage Jatembe and Arazni, are seemingly single-pathed, i.e. have not taken the mythic feat Dual Path. Unless it is not listed in overviews/wikis and I'd thus have to look in their actual stat block for the feat?
Seems kind of odd that someone like Kortash Khain, a cleric 5/sorcerer 5/mystic theurge 10, is a hierophant 6 instead of an archmage hierophant 6, even though most hierophant abilities improve class abilities rather than spellcasting. Then again, most archmage abilities are arcane spell only, but there's still some good abilities nonetheless.
On the matter of ordering: How do you denote which is the main path, as the bonus hp and capstone ability are different? Listing the main path last, as above, or something like marshal (archmage) 5 for a marshal who dual-pathed into archmage?
Also, I meant for the disguise routine to go in this order:
- Create a token on the 1st day.
- Ally ueses token on the 2nd day; witch regains the hex.
- Witch spends a standard action to create another token.
- Another ally uses that token; witch regains the hex.
- Witch uses the hex herself.
As long as hex uses are refreshed together with her spells on the 2nd day, even if the hex is currently in a token, this should work.
At 6th level, the alley witch archetype gets an ability that basically is the witch's bottle hex (i.e. sharing hexes with others) with different criteria:
- token hexes can have any target / bottle excludes personal hexes (i.e. quite a number of hexes)
- token can target user or creature touched by the user / bottle targets consumer
- token needs to be used or recovered to regain the hex / bottle can be rendered inert (presumably) at any range
- the token can contain increments (such as 2 hours of the disguise hex) instead of all uses, but the hex is still unavailable to the witch
What are some good hexes to share with others?
People have been talking about once per day double sleep/evil eye/misfortune, and so far the only outside-the-box uses I could think of are these:
1) Put 1/2 witch level worth of hours of disguise into a token, then use disguise yourself: ~1/2 witch level worth of hours of disguise for the witch and one ally (or two if you also created a token the day before). So anywhere from 3 to 10 hours, depending on level. Good for a stealth/espionage/intrigue game, but not really worth the effort in any other scenario.
2) Use downtime to double up on limited use hexes, such as a 3-use token of Spell Hex.
Also, how would a token interact with hexes gained via the Ritual Hex or Spirit Talker feat?
- Is the token potent only for the remainder of the day/hour?
- Or does its potency exceed the duration limit?
- Is the witch locked into selecting that same hex via Ritual Hex/Spirit Talker until the token is used/reclaimed?
- Or can she select any hex, but the token is only potent if she selects that particular hex?
- Or, most favorably, does the token loose potency once the duration runs out and remains so even when the witch selects the same hex, effectively bypassing the need to reclaim the token?
I guess this relates to my point above that you can basically no longer be a morally neutral cleric of a good or evil deity, the exceptions being Torag, Zon-Kuthon, and one aspect of Norgorber, if I remember correctly.
@VV, Because then you would have to make a long list of Anathema that basically amount to "Don't do Evil stuff" when they can instead use Alignment.
How about "a paladin can't worship fiendish deities"? Doesn't cover all evil deities (Zon-Kuthon and Urgathoa come to mind as they aren't ascended fiends), but it would at least be a blanket to prevent the evil outsider lords. Not saying that I'm against keeping alignment, just that it feels very wierd to then no longer impose the neutrality restriction on druids (nature has good, evil, lawful, and chaotic aspects: nurture, destruction, colonies, evolution/mutation; thus as a deific concept would be close to TN, plus animals and plants are TN).
Rysky wrote:
And I'm aware of the Archetypes for Antipaladins in 1st, I was referring to the playtest where the NPC Antipaladin is CE.
They were heretics in 1st edition by nature of being 1 step away from their Deity's alignment.
Fair enough, but one-step removed was (and still is in a lot of cases) apparently un-heretical enough to still receive spells.
Rysky wrote:
As for preventing Paladins of Asmodeus that sounds like an excellent reason in favor of keeping Alignment, it sets a nice groundwork.
No Paladins of Desna/Antipaladins of Asmodeus less so and I'll push for that to get fixed in the final product.
Why not make use of the anathema mechanic instead of alignment? If a paladin isn't supposed to worship deities like Asmodeus, then give the paladin class an anathema that can easily be contradicted by certain types of anathema of the evil deities: "paladins must not exploit others" and "Asmodeans must work to their own advantage at the expense of others".
As for the antipladin of Asmodeus: in PF1, the tyrant archetype is LE, and another can be Any Evil as long as they worship an Evil deity.
Why can't you have morally ambiguous situations with Alignment?
The playtest has scratched alignment in all instances except paladins and clerics/deities, and also further restricted the cleric alignments on a case by case basis. There are also at least two threads calling out the arbitrariness of the deity alignments (Gorum, for example, no longer accepts CG clerics, despite most of his anathema technically favoring good over evil followers).
In PF1, you could play a N cleric of Urgathoa "slipping" into depravity, or a N cleric of Sarenrae working towards bettering herself. This and many more is now impossible until we get a book about outliers and heretics, which considering how long it took for us to get the apologetic cleric acrhetype, may be a long way off.
I don't know, to me it just feels like they kept paladin/cleric alignment for the sole purpose that people don't try and play a paladin of Desna or, worse yet, Asmodeus. Also, whether intentionally or not, they are basically telling people that their CG "I fight on the side that defends those in need" Gorumite clerics are just plain old heretics.
I'm not asking about the mechanics, as those are clear: spend time and money, pass a check (and convince your GM), and you get to add a spell to your spell list. I'm asking about the flavor/lore implications.
An arcane or psychic caster studying a spell they don't normally have access to is pretty straightforward: they have learned the incantation, movement, and energy pattern necessary to create the desired effect. There's no further discussion to it, as their magic is created by their own effort/will.
A divine caster, on the other hand, asks some being/thing other than themself for magic, and gets all the spells their source is willing (or able) to give. They still need to know that a certain spell exists to ask for that particular spell (duh), but that's about it. In theory, no matter how much they study incantations, movements, and energy patterns, if their source of magic says 'no', then it means 'no'.
Still, some cases make sense: Lore shamans getting wizard spells or feyspeaker druids (presumably) drawing upon the First World to gain some enchantment and/or illusion spells. However, halcyon druids (the druid archetype counterpart to the Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class) somehow add wizard spells to their spell list simply through association with a wizard academy that studies druidic magic.
One interesting spell in that regard is the druid-exclusive cyclic reincarnation, which was created by Old-Mage Jatembe, a WIZARD that studied druidic and clerical magic (hence why the spell appears to be a mix of reincarnate and resurrection). As such, the spell should be a wizard spell (if only on Jatembe's spell list), but somehow druids caught wind of the spell (likely the halcyon circle mentioned above) and “reverse engineered” it, so to speak.
I just can't wrap my head around, say, a Cleric 5/Pathfinder Savant 3 knowing – and being allowed to cast, for that matter – two spells that their deity doesn't see fit to grant to all its other clerics as well.
Do they stack? Specifically, I'm referring to archetypes that alter/replace spirit magic, hexes gained via level up, or spirit abilities (there isn't one yet that does the latter, I'm just future-proofing my question). I could see the argument go either way, depending on which class we use as precedent: cleric/druid or sorcerer.
1) A cleric/druid with an archetype that alters the domain/nature bond class feature (such as replacing a domain power, or disallowing an animal companion) still can take subdomains, as long as the archetype does not provide an alternative list from which must be chosen. In that vein, spirit specializations are to shaman spirits as subdomains are to domains, and thus can still be taken even with an archetype that alters spirit magic spells, for example.
2) A wildblooded sorcerer alters/replaces certain bloodline powers and thus can only take archetypes that don't alter/replace these powers. In that vein, spirit specializations alter spirit magic spells, the respective spirit ability, and spirit hexes, which opens a can of worms: do you count spirit hexes as a subset of the spirit class feature (it's what grants access in the first place), the hex class feature (they are added as options in addition to the generic hexes after all), and if the latter, do you include the wandering hex class feature or not? Or would you even consider all of them a parent class feature for spirit hexes?
Interpretation 1 is easy and causes the least trouble, but interpretation 2 probably has its adherents as well (even though it might limit spirit specializations to vanilla shamans in the worst case).
Okay, so assume the party rogue died in an area that is too hazardous for the cleric to just go there and cast raise dead or resurrection. Could the party wizard cast limited wish to teleport the corpse (or part thereof) to where the party is?
For reference:
- limited wish can replicate non-opposition school 6th-level wizard and 5th-level non-wizard spells or lower, or 5th- and 4th-level opposition school spells, respectively. It can also do things of an equal power level to those.
- teleport is a 5th-level wizard spell, greater teleport is 7th-level, treacherous teleport and ice crystal teleport are 6th-level.
Assuming a “reversed direction teleport” is on par with a 6th-level spell (it's basically a modified teleport, just like treacherous teleport or ice crystal teleport), this would mean as long as the wizard is “very familiar” with the rogue and hasn't chosen conjuration as an opposition school, he has a 97% chance to teleport the entire corpse, a 2% chance to teleport only part of it, and a 1% chance to get a similar corpse.
Am I correct in my assumptions? What about a mauled/disfigured corpse or if it's been eaten by animals/monsters? Should those bump the difficulty to “studied carefully”, “seen casually”, etc. (depending on the state of the corpse)?
Also, is there already a spell that could do something like that?
Good points, Quentin. Yes, it's mostly a roleplay aspect. However, it makes a difference mechanically if you try to throw a spell at the BBEG and it just fizzles out. There won't be enough time to find another spirit before you're killed (since you'd most likely only be able to switch spirits when you prepare spells).
As for what a spirit is in my eyes: while "spirit" can be a catch-all term for incorporeal undead, phantoms, and actual spirits and is used in that way by those characters who don't know better, there is some difference I have noticed across several sources. Incorporeal undead are basically souls that intermingled with the neagtive energy plane, whereas phantoms are souls that intermingled with the astral and/or ethereal planes (hence why they are outsiders instead of undead). Shaman spirits are the "embodiment" of certain things or concepts, such as the spirits of Flame, Lore, or Dark Tapestry (the latter of which might actually be the idle thoughts of Outer Gods and Great Old Ones). And then there are medium spirits, which are actual dead people, or possibly only echoes/imprints thereof, since I'm fairly certain that some of the named legendary medium spirits have fully passed on and don't still exist as a ghost or phantom.
As to the intelligence of spirits: assuming they are just embodiments of things or echoes of people, they still can potentially grant up to 20 ranks in a skill and influence your personality, as per the Spirit Ridden feat. So they are definetly intelligent, and at least have some form of emotions/ideals/goals/etc., but possibly are even less "real" than ghosts or phantoms as far as interacting with the material plane or making their presence known is concerned.
True, but technically everyone and their grandmother can be a witch patron, as they are defined as vague and mysterious. This leaves the exact details up to the GM, such as the BBEG turning out to be the witch's patron. Or the old cat lady down the street with only 3 levels of commoner.
Similarly, "shamans commune with the spirits of the world and the energies that exist in every living thing", so if a shaman is just so much attuned to these energies that they manifest aspects of them (i.e. has reached 20th level), I could certainly see them as being able to grant shaman spells, i.e. manipulate the energies on the behalf of others. What a spirit is is entirely up to flavor after all.
Maybe this was obvious and only I just recently realized it, but the manifestation of most shaman spirits says that “at 20th level, the shaman becomes a spirit of [name of spirit]”. Doesn't that mean that a 20th level shaman can grant spells to other shamans and possibly themself?
If so, then they get the freedom of an arcane caster (i.e. no higher power saying “no” and denying their spells) simply for reaching 20th level. A cleric needs to be at least mythic tier 3 and take Divine Source for the same effect, and must advance to 9th tier if he wants all his spell levels. Druids are outright stuck with worshiping nature.
Seems pretty unique among the full divine casters. What do you think?
Both spirits have manifestations that lend themselves to immortality, albeit in different ways:
1) Life requires contingency via Speaker for the Past archetype or Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment hex, or miracle via Serendipity Shaman archetype; Heavens auto-reincarnates if dead for 3 days.
2) Life is immune to death effects, meaning breath of life and reincarnate contingency/contingent spell will always trigger; Heavens gets Wisdom to Fort and Ref and thus reduces the chance of succumbing to a death effect (which ideally would be the minimum 5% chance of rolling a natural 1, possibly even smaller with re-rolls).
3) Life can't die from 0 points in an ability score (i.e. the Con score), since they can't be reduced below 1 (which also means less chances of becoming helpless and then being coup de grâce-d); Heavens has nothing of the sort.
Between the two, I feel they are equal in potential, since the only time death by ability drain matters is if it turns you into an undead before reincarnate can trigger, but it is still a weakness of the Heavens spirit nonetheless. On the other hand, Heavens offers more universally useful abilities, spells, and hexes in my opinion, while Life shoe-horns you into a healer role.
Well, my personal opinion is that it's a little bit of both philosophical and inherent weakness, actually: any metal inherently would inhibit a druid's powers, but the philosophy can make concessions for metal weapons as man's claws, so to speak (the dwarven boulder helmet being a weird RAW vs RAI/flavor hiccup, I'd wager; or it's considered a horn/antlers). If you mix in deific philosophy, it gets even crazier: druids of Gorum can wear metal armor and maintain their wild shape while doing so, they just can't use it or cast spells, and they don't have to wait 24 hours after removing the armor.
In fact, between undead creating druids (archetypes with the Death domain, the Uskwood Circle, less moral members/renegades of the Halcyon Circle*), undead druids (such as the siabrae), and blight druids, even the “revere nature” aspect of the philosophy can sustain a lot of bending without breaking. Possibly more, since it's purely philosophical, instead of inherent like metal.
As for the iron stake spell: if you're going to deal with fey on at least a semi-regular basis (implied by certain druid spells), you better have a way of dealing with the less friendly fey, hence why it appeared in a book about the First World.
Also, you can have druids under Pathfinder rules in a “modern” setting: if I'm not mistaken, Reign of Winter takes the characters to the Pathfinder version of WW I Russia at some point.
*The flavor and abilities all scream “good-aligned”, but the archetype doesn't actually refer to alignment in any way.
Just wondering how druids would function in a modern world setting, specifically what they are allowed and not allowed to do, or what inhibits their powers and what doesn't. Thankfully, Pathfinder isn't as restrictive about metal as some other settings (where druids need to cook with wooden or clay pots, have to use stone knives and bone needles, not to mention the repercussions of getting cut by an enemy sword), but it still begs some questions.
On one side, there's the “it's a philisophical/self-imposed restriction” argument (trusting nature to be enough protection), on the other, you have the argument that fey/the First World and druid magic are somewhat related (druids can cast fey gate but not plane shift, etc.) and since cold iron hurts fey it follows that metal in general inhibits druids. Then there's technology; as far as I'm aware, nothing in Pathfinder prohibits druids from using highly advanced technology, which could go either way: technology isn't part of the druidic vow/philosophy one way or another, or the contact with metal is minimal enough to be negligible.
From other discussions, the consensus seems to be that being surrounded by a large enough metal area either completely (i.e. wearing armor) or partially (i.e. wearing a shield) interferes with the druid's abilities, whether the contact is voluntary or not (since RAW doesn't distinguish between donning armor and being forced into it). Weapons, brooches, and the like don't interfere because they either are small enough or held away from/make minimal contact with the body (plus, weapon hilts often are bound in leather, so technically there wouldn't be any contact to begin with). What remains a bit of a point of controversy is a druid inside a room lined with metal (i.e. the next logical step up from armor): on the one hand, the druid isn't touching any metal (provided he's wearing shoes), but on the other hand, the druid is surrounded by an area of metal even more completely than most armors would.
Interestingly, whether the weakness is philosophical or inherent, modern day druids should be fine either way using mobile phones, surfing the internet, etc. (unless you update the druidic philosophy to prohibit them, but see technology above); the problem is large metal areas, of which there are many in everyday life, from the obvious elevators to the less obvious reinforced concrete (is the metal grid inside enough to qualify as a “large metal area” or not since there's holes in it?).
Assuming the metal weakness is inherent, we can extrapolate that cars, buses, trains, metal ships (possibly only below deck), and airplanes all should inhibit a druid's powers. If philosophical, that's technically an entirely new can of worms, but considering druids are fine with crashed interstellar spaceships and whatnot, cars and planes are rather primitive technology by comparison.
Also, what about plastic, synthetic fibers, and such? Would they be included as a no-go or not under the philosophy interpretation or perfectly fine since metal is the inherent problem?
At 2nd level, an urban druid gains the lorekeeper ability, which grants new class skills. Does this count as altering class skills for the purpose of stacking archetypes? I'm asking since there's probably one or two more such archetypes (for other classes) out there and it could make or break a character concept or build.
The consensus, as far as I'm aware, is that shamans draw on two seperate lists of hexes: generic hexes (those listed under the shaman description, like Healing or Evil Eye) and spirit hexes (those unique to each spirit).
As for feats/items/etc. with different descriptions/effects from different books, only the newer version of it would apply (unless the developers state otherwise for a specific feat/item/etc.), so the Extra Hex feat from the ACG, which limits shaman hex selection to spirit hexes only, is the one to go with.
Since the unsworn shaman only has access to generic hexes and witch hexes, it would be #1. However, unsworn shamans can switch around and get more than one witch hex per day, which is something even a shaman with the Ritual Hex feat/Beseech the Patron occult ritual can't do.
@Weirdo: Good catch about that. Eidolons being within one step of the summoner's alignment escaped me somehow.
@Cevah, PossibleCabbage: But the witch needs her familiar (who answers only to the patron) to prepare her spells, and Unique Patrons take them away. For example, if a witch with a Celestial Agenda patron ceases to be good, she looses her familiar and thus the ability to prepare witch spells. While it also says they loose hexes and spellcasting, I'd be inclined to say that hexes come from the witch's own power and that a mystic theurge could still prepare spells from her divine class in her witch slots.
Yes, a patron merely teaches a witch, but in such a way that she is dependent on the patron.
As for shamans, since the Unique Patrons equate shaman spirits (and other entities) to possible witch patrons, it is only logical that, for example, a Celestial Agenda Heavens spirit would require the shaman to be of good alignment as well. That doesn't mean that all Heavens spirits are also Celestial Agenda patrons, but I hope you see my point.
Also, what about 20th level shamans granting shaman spells?
While nothing in the shaman/witch description actually states how or even if a shaman can displease their spirit or witches their patron, other sources make allusions to just that. For example, the Spirit Summoner says that some spirits and eidolons are incompatible up to GM discretion, but specifically calls out Heavens and Fiend-like (i.e. devil subtype etc.), implying a Heavens shaman can't be Evil. The Unique Patrons (think Wildblooded sorcerer for witches) effectively turn witches into arcane clerics, and name shaman spirits as one of the entities that are patrons, which in turn implies that shaman spirits will withhold spells and hexes from shamans as well if displeased.
What I find interesting is that nothing in the Unique Patrons write-up says how a witch can regain favor with her patron if lost (effectively making witch levels useless), and that shamans don't have access to the atonement spell except through the FCB of some races.
Until now, I was under the impression that shamans and witches, like oracles, possess their divine/arcane abilities come what may, since the source of their magic has some long term goal far beyond their comprehension, or simply doesn't care what they do with its power. Also, most manifestations state that “the shaman becomes a/the spirit of [name of primary spirit]”, implying that 20th level shamans can grant shaman spells to others (and possibly themselves), which would also turn them into a possible witch patron.
I've been trying to convert the nine Spellforce deities (technically, there's ten) to Pathfinder for a home game. I noticed that, luckily enough, each can be aligned in such a way that there's one for every alignment, though some require background info instead of just their portfolio to make sense (such as Zerbo being NE rather than CN) and even then, opinions may vary.
I've mostly finished, but I'm drawing a blank for some domains, colors, and animals, and most favored weapons. Luckily, some weapons were either used as a holy symbol or were an item in the games, namely Hirinstaff (a quarterstaff) and Ulmspringer (a bow), though the latter is useless for effective use of the deity, as the deity no longer exists in his original form/portfolio after two of them had a falling out with the others.
As for domains, I've tried to have each domain represented through at least a subdomain (some parent domains just wouldn't make any sense, like Madness, though Nightmare was a fit). However, I currently lack representation of Animal, Scalykind, and Void. I can do without the last two, but the lack of the first one hurts me for some reason, even though there is (no longer) a god of animals and the next closest thing would be the goddess of nature, who has no particular affinity for animals as far as I'm aware.
So I'm basically just asking for any suggestions that could thematically fill in the blanks (represented by ???). Suggestions for oracle mysteries/curses and inquisitions are also welcome.
Active Deities:
Hirin
The Rider, Soul Carrier, Dream Messenger, Sleep Bringer, Nightmare
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: CN
Areas of Concern: Wind, storm, course of time, transitoriness, freedom
Domains: Air, Chaos, Death, Repose, Travel
Subdomains: Entropy, Freedom, Nightmare, Souls, Storms, Wind
Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff
Symbols: Lonesome rider, hourglass, black horse, falcon, wolf
Sacred Animals: Falcon, horse, wolf
Sacred Colors: Black, ???
Patron god of nomads, all peoples (death messengers and dreamers)
Niethalf
The Smith, Soul Smith, Examiner, Master of Battle, Master of the Eternal Forge
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: LN
Areas of Concern: Forging and construction handicraft, hardness, strength, courage, war
Domains: Artifice, Glory, Law, Strength, War
Subdomains: Construct, Honor, Loyalty, Resolve, Tactics, Toil
Favored Weapon: Warhammer
Symbols: Armoured smith, hammer, anvil, bear, eagle, steel
Sacred Animals: Bear, eagle
Sacred Colors: ???, ???
Patron god of all light peoples (warriors), racial god of dwarves
Elen
The Lonesome, Rain Lady, Mistweaver, Singer at the River
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: CG
Areas of Concern: Nature, waters, rain, mist, mysteries, wisdom, calmness, healing, art
Domains: Chaos, Good, Healing, Water, Weather
Subdomains: Flowing, Restoration, Resurrection, Rivers, Seasons, ???
Favored Weapon: ???
Symbols: Slim woman with long white hair, white she-wolf, owl, yew
Sacred Animals: Owl, wolf
Sacred Colors: White, ???
Patron goddess of all light peoples (gardeners and healers), racial goddess of elves
Zerbo
The Fiddler, Entertainer in the Mirror, Rag Prince, Snow-White Fool
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: NE
Areas of Concern: Cunning, deception, trade, music, dexterity, art of thieving
Domains: Charm, Evil, Earth, Luck, Trickery
Subdomains: Deception, Greed, Imagination, Metal, Thievery, Trade
Favored Weapon: Rapier
Symbols: Lonely fiddler, black cat, crow, mask, fencer, black-haired youth, fool with snow-white hair
Sacred Animals: Cat, crow
Sacred Colors: Black, white
Patron god of traders, gypsies, humans (thieves and entertainers)
Shanna
The Weaver, Mother, Sister, Good-Natured One, Gentle Hand
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: NG
Areas of Concern: Crafts and trades, home, health, family, healing, softness
Domains: Artifice, Community, Good, Healing, Protection
Subdomains: Cooperation, Family, Home, Purity, Redemption, Restoration
Favored Weapon: ???
Symbols: Woman at the loom, grey cat, pigeon, oak
Sacred Animal: Cat, pigeon
Sacred Colors: Grey, ???
Patron goddess of craftsmen, farmers, humans (relatives and healers)
Ereon
The Scribe, Master of the Book, Mediator, Protector of the Arcanes, Fair One
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: N
Areas of Concern: Knowledge, education, medicine, research, neutrality, fairness
Domains: Healing, Knowledge, Magic, Rune, ???
Subdomains: Arcane, Divine, Language, Memory, Thought, ???
Favored Weapon: ???
Symbols: Writer, feather, scales, book and sword, raven, man in grey or white robe
Sacred Animal: Raven
Sacred Colors: Grey, white
Patron god of of judges, all light peoples (scholars and spellcasters)
Tiara
The Dancer, Dancing Flame, Heaven Guardian, Golden One, Radiant One
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: LG
Areas of Concern: The sun, vitality, light, good, hope, internal strength, warmth, fire, passion
Domains: Fire, Glory, Good, Law, Sun
Subdomains: Day, Heroism, Leadership, Light, ???, ???
Favored Weapon: ???
Symbol: Gold decorated dancer, flame, the sun, circle, gold
Sacred Animal: ???
Sacred Colors: Gold, ???
Patron goddess of all light peoples, racial goddess of humans after Aonir
Nor
The Silent, Master of the Night, Only Seeing, Silverweaver
Pantheon: Renegades
Alignment: LE
Areas of Concern: Knowledge, clarity, power, truth, night
Domains: Darkness, Evil, Knowledge, Law, Strength
Subdomains: Ferocity, Moon, Night, Thought, ???, ???
Favored Weapon: Scimitar
Symbols: Black dressed sabre fighter, the moon, crescent, cold salt water, silver net, silver spider, silver
Sacred Animal: Spider
Sacred Colors: Black, silver
Patron god of all dark peoples (intellectuals), racial god of dark elves
Zarach
The Growing, Claw, Drinker of the World Blood, Dark Storm, Iron Root, Blood Fire
Pantheon: Renegades
Alignment: CE
Areas of Concern: Creation, remaking, growing, conquest
Domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Plant, War
Subdomains: Blood, Catastrophe, Corruption, Growth, Hatred, Rage
Favored Weapon: Claw or ???
Symbols: Red claw, black root, fire, blood, iron, claw-shaped tree without branches
Sacred Animal: ???
Sacred Colors: Black, red
Racial god of orcs and trolls
Inactive Deities:
Aonir
The Wanderer
Known facts: "creator" god (used the primordial elements that were already there); racial god of humans; absent due to traveling all of existence or some such thing; left Eo in the care of his children, giving each a purpose in the world or task to fulfill until he returns at the end of time
Nor (formerly)
The Silverweaver, Master Silver Crescent, Silver One, Cold Eye
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: presumably LN, possibly already LE
Areas of Concern: Moon, night, silence, sleep, forgetting, cold
Domains: Darkness, Law, Repose, Water, ???
Subdomains: Ice, Loss, Moon, Night, ???, ???
Favored Weapon: Scimitar
Symbols: presumably same
Sacred Animal: presumably same
Sacred Colors: presumably same
Ulm (now Zarach)
The Provider, World Tree, Multicoloured
Pantheon: Guardians
Alignment: presumably CG
Areas of Concern: Growth, variety, animals and creatures
Domains: Animal, Chaos, Good, Plant, Scalykind
Subdomains: Feather, Fur, Growth, ???, ???, ???
Favored Weapon: Bow
Symbols: unknown, presumably tree
Sacred Animal: unknown, presumably all
Sacred Colors: unknown, presumably all
Unknown if he had any worshipers
The Meditation Master feat gives you a (pitiable) benefit "when you meditate for at least 1 hour after getting at least 8 hours of rest", but opens up several feat trees, some of which have quite nice abilities, such a taking 10 on any skill check and concentration check even if not normally allowed due to stress (with no daily limit) from Perfect Center, or an (eventual) +5 bonus on Will saves against charm, compulsion, emotion and fear effects and a +10 increase to the DC to feint and demoralize you from Mindful Meditation.
Since prepared divine casters sans shamans* meditate for an hour to prepare their spells, would this count for Meditation Master, or would you require two hours of meditation from such a character?
*Most shamans commune with their spirit animal, but speakers for past (and presumably all other archetypes that replace the spirit animal without specifiying an alternate preparation method) do meditate to prepare spells.
1c) So assuming a wizard 11/archmage 4, would that mean two primary targets and a total of 15 secondary targets combined, or 15 secondary targets for each primary target? And if the primary targets are, say, 90 feet apart, would I be unable to target any secondary targets (sine none of them would be within 30 feet of both primary targets), or would the secondary targets just have to be within 30 feet of either target?
2b) Mythic contingency is has a range of "touch" and is thus legal for abundant casting. Or do you mean that contingency in general would not work?
Because the spell says it's wielded like a scimitar (which isn't finessable without the Dervish Dance feat). After clarifying how it is wielded, the spell goes on to say that attacks with it are melee touch attacks.
Think of it like a magus with a permanently active accurate strike arcana.
Something to add: Even though it is wielded as a scimitar, it only has a threat range of 20/x2, though it is affected by Improved Critical like any scimitar would. Also, Spell Perfection will double the bonus from (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization.
Fun fact: A mythic flame blade has a threat range of 18-20/x2, when augmented it's 15-20/x2, and with Improved Critical that becomes a whopping 9-20/x2, in addition to bypassing fire resistance and fire immunity.
I have some questions about abundant casting and how it interacts with certain types of spells.
Here's the relevant text of the archmage ability:
Abundant Casting (Ex) wrote:
Whenever you cast a spell that specifically targets a limited number of targets (such as “one creature/level” or “one or more creatures”), add your tier to the number of targets the spell can affect. For example, a 5th-level wizard/1st-tier archmage can target up to six creatures when casting haste (five from caster level 5th and one from 1st tier). Alternatively, you can expend one use of mythic power when casting a spell that affects only one target (such as “one creature”) to have the spell affect an additional target. If the spell requires you to succeed at a melee touch attack, you must hold the charge (Core Rulebook 185) in order to make a second touch attack.
My questions are:
1a) If a spell lists a maximum number of targets, such as magic missile (up to five creatures) or the violent thrust ability of the telekinesis spell [one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15)], does the maximum remain unchanged (i.e. the tier is added directly to the caster level for the purpose of targeting), or does it increase the maximum number of targets (i.e. the tier is added after the number of targets based on caster level is calculated)?
1b) Would an augmented magic missile or other spell that doubles its targets apply its target cap after abundant casting [(5+tier)*2, max 10], or before (5*2+tier)?
1c) What about a spell like chain lightning [one primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)]? I'd presume you add your tier to the number secondary targets, but can you expend one use of mythic power to affect two primary targets? And if so, can you then split your allotment of secondary targets between them as you like, or do you get twice the normal secondary targets? What about the range limit?
2a) Does a spell with a range of “personal” count as affecting only one target? I feel like the answer is yes, but then again personal range spells are personal range for a reason.
2b) Assuming the answer is yes or you use the mythic version, how would contingency interact with abundant casting? Do you effectively copy the companion spell? Or does only the target which first meets the conditions benefit from the spell and contingency is discharged without effect for the other creature?
I'd work around the issue by stacking it with Magic Warrior. This replaces the 3rd-level arcana (among other things) and gives you one more druid spell per spell level at 19th level. Spend the remaining arcana (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) on spell blending (to grab wizard spells like false life, heroism and contingency) or disruptive and spellbreaker.
After grabbing flame blade from the druid list at 4th level, you don't really need staple arcana like arcane accuracy/accurate strike to hit and your swift action can be spent on Arcane Strike for some extra damage from the flame blade (which may or may not be doubled by Spell Perfection). At 19th level, grab barkskin for your 2nd-level spell and cast it on your familiar before merging for some extra AC (up to +3, if the familiar has an uneven natural armor bonus).
Also, it's another nature-flavored magus archetype, not to mention the possibility of Contingency!Cyclic Reincarnation, which ignores the 5,000 gp DF, being an arcane spell for the magus. And you'd still have room for another 6th-level druid spell.
Only problem is that without Knowledge Pool, you really have to look after your spellbook, hang around a Magaambyan Arcanist, or only pick druid spells that are also on the witch spell list, since you can't learn spells from a divine scroll, even if it is on your class list.
I'm aware what spirits each archetype communicates with, or did you mean the spirits of lucky ancestors? I feel like I need more than that to really warm up to this combo from a roleplaying perspective. As far as I'm aware, serendipity shamans (at least the catfolk portion of them) worship the "spirits of creation", whatever those are.
As for stacking, the serendipity shaman says "in addition to general shaman hexes and the hexes granted by her spirit. When she gains the wandering spirit class feature", so I read this as clarifying these hexes are available for wandering hex (if the shaman has the feature), since they are on the list of her primary spirit. Something I (and probably some others) always forget is that you can take primary spirit hexes as your wandering hex. In effect: "This alters hex and the hexes granted by the shaman's primary spirit". I know we could go back and forth splitting hairs on this, but if the archetype contained that sentence, would you consider them rules legal?
Good idea! A "lucky reincarnate" table of catfolk, halfling, human, half-elf, half-orc or scion of humanity aasimar (and any I missed counting as human) is something I can work with.
Anyone else got any ideas as to the spirits this shaman communes with?
How would you flavor/roleplay a shaman taking both the speaker for the past and the serendipity shaman archetypes?
How would different spirits affect that flavor?
Also, is it rules legal? You can never be too sure with all the little clauses, after all.
Bonus rules-y question: If the shaman uses the Defiant Luck feat to qualify, but then reincarnates as a non-legal race (contingency+reincarnate, heavens spirit manifestation, druid party memeber, etc), do they loose the archetype? They still have the feat, they just can't use the feat until they are a legal race again.
I'm not accusing anyone of deliberately making useless feats or anything like that, because everyone can and does make mistakes.
But you either attack as a standard or as a full-round action during your turn, or as an AoO during the enemy's turn. Monkey Lunge makes it impossible for you to use the feat and attack during the same turn, while limiting the benefits to your turn. Whoever wrote the feat either meant to give you a single attack as part of using the feat or confused 'turn' and 'round'. Either way, the feat has never received an update as far as I know.
Didn't want to force this reading of the feat, I was just curious what others were thinking about the lack of specified actions and playing devil's advocate for a bit (probably should have prefaced that), but Grandlounge explained quite nicely how it doesn't need to specify splitting your move action.
Though, just for reference, Paizo has indeed published a feat that does nothing. Well, it does something, but that something amounts to nothing: Monkey Lunge.
By using the feat? I could reiterate the wording of the feat, but since it doesn't say that using the feat is a full-round action or excplicity states that you have to split your move action, if taken RAW, you gain movement up to your speed for free whenever you use a spell trigger item.
Two examples of better worded feats granting extra movement would be Following Step and Outslug Sprint, both of which increase your 5 foot step to 10 feet when following an enemy or when making attacks with a close weapon, respectively.
I won't argue that RAI, Wand Dancer probably means for you to split your move action, but RAW, this feat flat out grants free movement.
1) Nowhere in the feat's description does it refer to any type of action, whether standrad, move, full-round, or otherwise. It only effectively splits your move action because of the way it's worded and using spell trigger items being a standard action.
1+2) I just named them such because that's what these movements effectively mimic. I'm aware you can't actually charge or withdraw and spell combat the same round.
3) Again, the feat doesn't require you to spend a move action, just that you don't move a distance greater than your movement speed. If you spent your move action otherwise, the feat doesn't care.
@Rendal: Yes, they don't have to specify otherwise, since using a spell trigger item is a standard action, leaving you only with the move action. However, a magus with the Wand Wielder arcana can incorporate said standard action into his full-round attack. Hence this is the one time situation where it would allow a full-round action and a move action.
@avr, I'm not too familiar with move actions and 5 foot steps, so I'll take your word on that. The Wand Wielder arcana explicitly allows using a spell triger item with spell combat: "The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat." So I could move towards an enemy, throw a fireball from the staff at some other enemies by triggering it, move around/closer to the enemy, and then go to town on the enemy with a full attack, no?
I agree with both of you that RAI, it likely shouldn't work, but then again: It takes 2 feats (Dodge and Mobility) and five ranks in a "useless" skill to even qualify for the feat, staves have limited charges and aren't exactly cheap/easy to come by, while using a wand would require first casting weaponwand for one round (since the arcana doesn't remove the free hand limit from spell combat) almost every combat, as it only has a duration of 1 minute/level. Finally, the staff magus is a very MAD archetype (Int for casting, Cha for staves, Con for HP, Dex for AC, Str for hit and damage, even Wis shouldn't be below 10 because of Will being the most important save). Some of that can be allievated through traits like Pragmatic Activator, but even then he's still splitting points between 4 stats and not dumping the 5th. So if a player was willing to invest in three feats and a MAD archetype, why not throw them a bone?
I've often looked at that archetype and tried to figure it out, so I think I can provide you with some insight.
Familiars can't learn languages, except maybe the sage archetype, as all others use their master's skill ranks. The way ranks in Linguistics and familiars are usually handled seems to be that the familiar knows whatever language its master learned with that rank. As for speaking languages, the only way to be sure per RAW is if it has the decoy archetype. All others UNDERSTAND languages, but don't know how to ARTICULATE them. Even ravens, thrushes, and such can only speak "because magic". So even if you gave it the Cosmopolitan feat (which grants two languages and class skills), it would only be able to understand, not articulate them. Of course when looking at this from a roleplay perspective, it's totally fine to have the familiar practice using the body's vocal cords etc. and eventually gaining the ability to speak, so ask your DM.
Magic Jar is one mess of a spell, so players are encouraged to swap all instances for Possession instead.
The familiar's original body is still an animal, right? This also means that depending on how you interpret twin soul, you better bring that body back to life, or you'll both be dead once the witch dies as well. In case of the witch being dead, she can hit her body with reincarnate for free (as an arcane caster, she ignores the 1000 gp oils DF, though many will rule it to be a printing error; then again, cyclic reincarnation also lists the oils as the DF, so this may be intentional for both spells). However, whether such spells work with the soul still around is anyone's guess. I've also come across the interpretation that twin soul kicks in once the body gains the "dying" condition, but once the body is actually dead, the soul of the witch/familiar dies as well. Make of that what you will.
Generally, supernatural abilities don't allow spell resistance, though saving throws still apply of course.
The Wand Dancer feat lets a character move before and after using a spell trigger item, provided they don't move a total distance greater than their speed, with a movement of at least 5 feet before and after use of the item. This obviously looks like Spring Attack for wands and staves, except it doesn't specify an action to use the feat. This is important.
A magus with the Wand Wielder arcana can use wands and staves in place of casting a spell when using spell combat. RAW, this should combine with the feat to create a full-round attack with extra movement. Let's use a staff magus with 30 feet movement speed as an example:
1) Charge: Move 25 feet towards enemy, start spell combat using the staff as the first attack/spell, move 5 feet, continue full-attacking.
2) Retreat: Start spell combat using the staff as the last spell/attack, move 5 feet before making said attack, move 25 feet away from enemy.
3) Hit-and-switch: Either of the above, except not maxing out movement and instead just switching to an enemy further away than a 5 foot step would allow, or switching enemies twice by also taking a 5 foot step mid-attack.
The Orator feat allows substituting Linguistics for the Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skills when influencing attitude and lying/concealing information. At the time it was written, it thus covered 1/3 of Diplomacy, 2/3* of Bluff and 1/2 of Intimidate; 4 out of 7 or slightly above half the skill applications.
*assuming concealing information refers to secret messages – otherwise it only covers 1/3 and part of the benefits does nothing.
The later released Spymaster's Handbook and Giant Hunter's Handbook added longer duration attitude influencing for Intimidate, feigning harmlessness and performing inconspicuous actions for Bluff, and the option to use Bluff and Diplomacy in concert to subtly bring a creature to think your suggestion was its own idea.
I'm pretty sure the longer duration Intimidate is covered by Orator and that inconspicuous actions and feigning harmlessness aren't, since they specifically refer to physical actions.
However, I'm on the edge on the suggesting course of action option, as it is clearly an application of verbal skill (which should logically be covered by Orator)**, but it isn't specifically called out by the feat (since the option didn't exist at the time of writing).
**you could even make an argument that you are influencing the attitude of a creature (toward a certain idea rather than yourself) and that you are lying about the source of the idea/concealing that it came from you.
Assuming both the additional Intimidate option and suggesting a course of action are covered by the feat, it would cover 2/4 Diplomacy, 3/5 Bluff, 2/3 Intimidate; 7 out of 12 or (still) slightly above half the skill applications.
So from a balance standpoint, there doesn't seem to be a problem: more skill ranks vs 2 feats for the same relative result. I'm just wondering about the rules interpretation.
The totem guide animal companion archetype has been intriguing me for some time now, but I've got two questions about its abilities.
1) "Beast Speech (Ex): At 6th level, a totem guide can speak with its master as though the two shared a common language, and it can speak with other animals of its species (or, at the GM’s discretion, other creatures with similar types)."
Assuming it has an Int score of 2 or 3, it should be incapable of coherent speech/charades, as that requires a minimum of 4 according to the ability score tables. Is this more of an empathy thing? Technically, it can't be magical, because the ability is Ex instead of Su.
2) "Ghost Guardian (Ex): At 15th level, a totem guide’s natural weapons deal full damage to incorporeal creatures and its natural armor bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks. A totem guide can never be raised or animated as an undead creature."
It can't be the target of animate dead, create undead, etc.. That much is clear to me. But does the "can't be raised" mean it also can't be the target of raise dead, resurrection and true resurrection? What about reincarnate and cyclic reincarnation? Other spells and abilities that can bring an animal companion back from the dead?
I like to plan ahead. ;)
For the earlier levels, I'm looking towards Ray of Enfeeblement and buffs for the party. Since the archetype gets all knowledges and diplmoacy as class skills, as well as 1/2 druid level to Know (local) and Diplomacy, pulling his weight in the early levels will be done just as much in out of combat situations as in in combat situations, if not more.
As for Eyebite: What DO you suggest I pick instead of Eyebite?
Eyebite isn't the best spell, I agree with you there.
But there's not too many necromancy spells I want at that level (or others in general) and considering I can already exhaust/fatigue with boneshatter, stagger with explosion of rot, and debuff basically everything with enervation, I could do worse than adding a "free" sickened attempt every round to the list.
And I never even knew/thought about that Magic Jar-Elemental Body combo. Nice. :)
Only problem is I personally am not a huge fan of the spell, just seems a little too wonky (I think the possession spell even asks you to replace all instances of magic jar with it because it just is worded clearer and such).
I usually use Magic Jar and Animate dead as a combo together.
Take control of the first room and have them kill each other wondering why did this guy start attacking allies. After they are all dead I return to my body and enter the room. I then cast Animate Dead and push them into the next areas. After more bodies pile up and I lose some of mine I cast animate dead again and keep pushing. My team mates take considerably less damage due to the undead meatshields leading the charge. Some critters actually get stronger being undead. It is a great way to clear a dungeon and the dead also make for finding traps easier in a hilarious fashion.
Well that's what I get for never considering creating undead as a player: I dont think up such nice strategies. Though druids have little undead support und Halcyon druids are presumably NG (what with associating with the Magaambya and spontaneouly casting Good domain spells), so no evil spells for this guy.
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I've always thought Explosion of rot had potential as a blasting spell for a druid.
Banshee blast on the other hand, does not.
If you get to go Mythic, Mythic finger of Death is pretty good at killing things.
But really druids aren't the best at killing things magically, not quickly anyway, more tying them in so many knots they give up.
Summon nature ally with some nice templates also kills things, Celestial Dire Tigers are a nice start. As for necromancy spells in general, you're in good hands with Louise.
The realization that explosion of rot is just simply better is what started all this. ;) And yeah, druids aren't good at magic-ing things into oblivion, so I decided on a debuffer with damage thrown in as a bonus.
I guess one way to start combat would be a quickened explosion of rot or enervation coupled with a standard eyebite. Then target enemies as necessary and appropriate the following rounds and let the others in the party do the main damage. That way everyone gets to contribute something instead of feeling like a wizard's clean up team. :)
Eyebite isn't the best spell, I agree with you there.
But there's not too many necromancy spells I want at that level (or others in general) and considering I can already exhaust/fatigue with boneshatter, stagger with explosion of rot, and debuff basically everything with enervation, I could do worse than adding a "free" sickened attempt every round to the list.
And I never even knew/thought about that Magic Jar-Elemental Body combo. Nice. :)
Only problem is I personally am not a huge fan of the spell, just seems a little too wonky (I think the possession spell even asks you to replace all instances of magic jar with it because it just is worded clearer and such).
Update: I've pretty much finalized spell selection by throwing in some timey wimey stuff as well:
4th) Prestidigitation, Ray of Enfeeblement
6th) Boneshaker, False Life
8th) Haste, Heroism
10th) Break Enchantment, Overland Flight
12th) Boneshatter, Enervation
14th) Contingency, Eyebite
16th) Plane Shift, Retrocognition
18th) Horrid Wilting, Mind Blank
20th) Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee
Together with other spells native to the druid like Ancestral Memory, Explosion of Rot, Threefold Aspect, Dust Form, Temporal Regression (not sure if it's worth a 9th level slot), and other thematically appropriate ones I'm sure I've missed, they mesh well into a theme that's basically Shyka's portfolio, so I might even have found a patron deity/Eldest, though it'll take some time warming up to the idea. Any good sources on them?
Back on topic: since Eyebite eats up the swift action each round after the first, quickened enervation is out the window (as is spontaneously thanatopic-ing it with spell perfection when needed), so I might drop Spell Perfection alltogether unless someone suggests an application that's just too good to pass up. Either way is fine, since it means I'll have more slots to spend on other feats.
Also, am I interpreting Dust Form right in that I can make full-attacks against touch AC, since I'm incorporeal? And I won't get natural armor and Cha as deflection will be redundant with a RoP, but instead I'll take half damage from most things and I could get total concealment by moving into an object. Does my armor/shield bonus still apply or do they have to be ghost touch (was probably going to get them anyway, just making sure)?
Finally, any good +1 or +2 abilities to add to a +5 ghost touch sharding sickle at higher levels?
Yeah, I kind of got that with those the descriptors it wouldn't be good, but was just hoping it may still be decent if built towards.
Though it is untyped damage rather than sonic, so really you are either immune or not. Nothing between. That's at least something I guess...
As I said, I just needed a little push, since banshee blast was basically hanging on a thin "it's cool and thematically improves to wail of the banshee"-thread at the point I posted this. Also, I did consider enervation, but it would need to be thanatopic to affect undead, whereas explosion of rot works from the start.
So, any good metamagic to throw onto EoR or enervation?
I'm building a Halcyon druid (druid that can grab wizard spells) focusing on necromancy and debuff-"blasting" (i.e. decent to mediocre damage with good to decent rider effect) and I'm contemplating what spell to pick for Spell Perfection.
Some of the spells he'll be taking are: boneshaker at 6th, boneshatter at 10th, and banshee blast at 14th. There's also horrid wilting at 18th (kind of a mass version of blight, which druids already get, so a logical and thematic choice) and wail of the banshee at 20th (the mother of all SoD spells and in-theme with banshee blast).
So far, I was considering banshee blast for Spell Perfection and making it persistent for free (and further increasing the DC by 2, since I was taking Greater Spell Focus anyway). But then my eyes were drawn towards the druid-exclusive explosion of rot, also a nice debuff-blast.
Now, the two elephants in the room are obviously the double save and "B*tch, I'm immune to that sh*t." on banshee blast. The lower damage is less of a concern to me, since the purpose of this druid is to soften enemies up for others, rather than outright kills. On the other hand, banshee blast has a higher DC (10% more likely to deal full damage, to be precise) and affects more squares and thus potentially more creatures.
Metamagic on the build: Most likely Extend Spell, probably Persistent Spell (mostly for BB), definitely no Intensified Spell (not really worth it on this build), and possibly no Quicken Spell either (blasphemous for a full caster, I know; though EoR probably makes it worth it when perfected). Maybe Thanatopic Spell or Threnodic Spell, depending on the final spell selection, since they would be in-theme. Or Contingent Spell for emergency healing, but I could also just grab contingency from the wizard.
As such, I could ramp up the damage and stagger potential of EoR or quicken it, which is really, really tempting, but then I'd also be tempted to also intensify it for even more damage and exhausting my 9 levels worth of effective spell levels.
Alternately, I could make BB more effective at what it does. Sadly, I won't be able to do much to undead with the spell, unless I use Thanatopic or Threnodic Spell and carry a rod of whichever I lack. Annoying, but also not forbiddingly impractical.
How does that work anyways? It seems death and sonic are tied to the damage part, while fear and mind-affecting are tied to the panic part. Seems kind of odd that even the frailest paladin wouldn't take damage from this spell, when it is quite clearly caused by an outside force rather than imagination. Or should they take damage, but be automatically immune to the rider effect?
Honestly, the longer I look at both spells, the more I'm inclined to take explosion of rot simply to avoid opening a can of banshee worms. But then there would be less reason to actually learn banshee blast and then wail of the banshee would kind of come out of left field.
Basically, I hope people can convince me that banshee blast would be worth perfecting (and maybe suggest another 1-level metamagic to prepare it with) or, failing that, push me just a little bit further towards a “generic” quickened spell perfection using explosion of rot. Or maybe another spell entirely. I'm open to suggestions. :)
TL;DR: Between explosion of rot and banshee blast, which would be better/more effective perfected? Key points: 1) 1d4 rounds staggered or 1 round/CL panicked? 2) 10 ft burst or 30 ft cone? 3) close range or directly in front of me? 4) no immunities or some situationally annoying immunities? 5) 4th-level spell (possibly with some other metamagic and thus a 6th level slot either way) or 6th-level spell (likely without metamagic)?
