Xermaxm's page

If an arcanist takes bloodline development to obtain a Familiar via the arcane bloodlines arcane bond ability; how would that work? Would the familiar only develop beyond its level 1 abilities and get the rest of them at level for Cha rounds when I expand 1 point from my arcane reservoir? Or would it be developed normally, independent of spending reservoir points?

I understand that the Arcanist can get a familiar without going this route, I am just curious how the rules would work for it.

Xermaxm wrote:

It is clear to me at this point that it will take someone at Paizo to answer my question.

Xermaxm - I doubt very much you will get Paizo to answer this to your satisfaction either, since it is already answered in the rule book. The game has a GM. GMs adjudicate any such "grey areas" of the rules. This is the lightest shade of grey imaginable, but as such your GM will adjudicate it if it ever comes up.

GM does not know because we are unable to locate the proper mechanic in the rule book.

It is clear to me at this point that it will take someone at Paizo to answer my question.

Spells ARE game mechanics. So there is no need for a general rule about this.

The general rule would be 'the secondary effects apply if the spell says they apply'.

No, they are subject to game mechanics.

Because the dev team doesn't just make rules up for things that don't exist and that they don't intend to ever develop.

Also you are not dissecting the wording of a spell and determining how it applies mechanically. No such spell exists.

Yes, such spells do exist. There are several spells that this applies directly to. I am not giving a spell because it is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is the games mechanics for resolving spells and spell effects. If I were to name a particular spell then any response would not be on the game mechanics, but instead on the interpretation of that particular spell.

We can interpret every spell ourselves once the game mechanics are understood.

There is no spell wording that needs to be read to resolve this question. Only an explanation of the game mechanics can do so.

In the spirit of Inigo Montoya:

You keep using that phrase "game mechanics", I do not think it means what you think it means.

No, I do know what it means.

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=game+mechanics

Your question is like a 5 year old asking their father "Daddy, what if I sneezed and my head exploded." Dad replies, "That would never and could never happen." Then the kid says, "Yeah, but what if."

No, this question is the result of a group of engineers who play D&D.

We dissect every spells wording and how it applies mechanically.

Many spells are self resolving, many are not.

The base question of this thread is a question that arose when we could not find anything mechanical in the game that would resolve the issue clearly.

As others have said, there is no general or blanket rule for what you're asking about, and the text of any individual spell is all that matters in this case.

The concept that's being referred to but hasn't been explicitly stated to you in this thread is "specific trumps general". In the general case of spells, each and every spell is its own specific case when dealing with the interactions of saves, immunities, and resistances. Everything depends on the wording of the spell(s) in question.

This is true, but not every spell is explicit in how each of it's components resolves. The game mechanics for resolving the spells effects would then dictate how this is done.

In any case the spells wording is applied based off of the game mechanics. Weather the spell is explicit in in explanation or vague. The wording would still be compared to the game mechanics.

If the spell is to be applied as it is printed, that is a game mechanic. If the printing is vague on how this is to be done, then another game mechanic would explain how to resulve it. It gets compaired either way.

Xermaxm wrote:

The game mechanics are independent of the spell, and apply the same for every spell. If you do not know the game mechanics for resolving spell effects then say that you do not know the mechanics.

There is no general game mechanic for what you are asking.

Thank you!

If this is the case then I ask that Paizo lay out the mechanics for resolving spells.

Xermaxm wrote:

The game mechanics are independent of the spell, and apply the same for every spell.

This was wrong the first time you suggested it, and continues to be wrong. Different spells have different mechanics.

Repeating a wrong statement will not make it suddenly become correct.

I am not the one who is wrong on this aspect.

Xermaxm wrote:

The question now arises mechanically, what comes next?

5) ?

These are game mechanics, they function the same for every spell cast.

Step 5) Read the spell.

The same for every spell cast.

The game mechanics are independent of the spell, and apply the same for every spell. If you do not know the game mechanics for resolving spell effects then say that you do not know the mechanics.

If your response is to read the spell, then you do not know the game mechanics.

As I stated before, the wording of the spell is applied to the game mechanics, they themselves are not the mechanic.

Actually, no. A spell, for example, that does not allow a saving throw (e.g. magic missile) is not an example, because there is no saving throw to be made.

Okay, this is how game mechanics work.

You cast a spell.
1) does it pass any spell resistance?
The creature does not have spell resistance. (this step still applies mechanically).

2) does it pass it's save throw?
The spell does not allow a save throw. (this step still applies mechanically).

3) Spell resistance has been passed, and the save has failed (automatically). the effects of the spell apply.

4) apply damage reduction effects of the energy type
The creature is Immune to the damage type and all damage is reduced to zero. (This step still applies).

The question now arises mechanically, what comes next?

5) ?

These are game mechanics, they function the same for every spell cast.

It is a mechanics question. Casting a spell and how it's effects are applied or negated are a set of mechanics that apply the same for every spell. The wording of any particular spell is compared to these mechanics to see how the particular spell functions.

I am asking what the base mechanics are. So that any particular spell can be compared to those mechanics.

It is pointless to single out a particular spell unless you have a base mechanic of how spells effects apply and are negated.

Understanding the game mechanics comes first. Then you can apply the individual instance to those mechanics and know how they resulve.

Unless he can give a specific example of such a spell existing then the discussion is pointless.

As this is a concept question relating to game mechanics, every spell is an example. As the mechanics would apply to every spell it is not pointless to ask.

Yea and some alchemist bomb discoveries happen on a hit, whether or not a target takes damage, such as concussive bombs deafening a target or explosive setting a target on fire (doesn't matter if a target is immune to fire, it'll still be on fire; which could matter if the immunity is only temporary or if it's giving off a light source revealing it's location in the dark).

Xermaxm, do you have an example somewhere where it would be unclear?

This is another example of the concept.

explosive setting a target on fire (doesn't matter if a target is immune to fire, it'll still be on fire; which could matter if the immunity is only temporary or if it's giving off a light source revealing it's location in the dark).

On order for this to be so, the mechanic would have to be that regardless of any immunity to damage types, a save throw must be made, and if failed the effects apply. Immunity being relevant to only damage of that type.

If this is an official mechanic, then it can be applied to any spell.

So the question is, is this what actually happens or is there some other mechanic in play?

The fireball blast knocking someone back is an example of a secondary effect.

Does the creature still have to make a save throw against the fireball spell if it is immune to the fire damage?

If so, then would a failed save allow that secondary effect (knock-back) to take effect?

It is a concept question that should be able to be applied to any spell.

Well it is more of a concept question.

When someone cast a spell, the target has the option to make the save throw or to choose to fail the save throw.

Does this still apply when a creature has immunity to an energy type?

So, lets say that I cast a fireball on a creature with immunity to fire.

Mechanically, does it still have to make the save for half, or choose to fail for full damage? The fact that any damage, halved, or full is negated by the immunity should be irrelevant to this.

Then, if a creature does fail the save, by choice or a failed save, even though the damage is negated via immunity; does the failed save allow any secondary effects to take effect?

This is a mechanics question and not about any wording of a particular spell.

If a spell states that is the case it obviously is. But when it is not stated, mechanically how does it play out.

Lets say that you have a spell that a primary effect of fire damage, and a secondary effect that is not fire based.

You cast that spell on a creature with Immunity to fire.

It obviously does not take the fire damage. But does it still take the secondary effects?

One side is saying that if the creature fails its save and the spell passes spell resistance, then it comes under all effects of the spell, it is just immune to the fire damage, not the secondary effects that are not fire damage.

One side says that it is Immune to fire damage so it does not even need to make any saves, and thus does not succumb to the secondary effects.

This is not a question about a particular spell, it is a more general question that can be applied to all spells.

Does a creature with Immunity fire, for example, have to make save throw against a spell that deals fire damage, or does it automatically become immune to all effects of the spell not ever needing to make a save throw?