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Now that I think about it, the FAQ is irrelevant as the Swashbuckler is not an archetype of the Fighter. Swashbuckler Weapon Training is a completely different ability to the Weapon Training that Fighters receive, and hence any feats, items or other abilities that interact with Weapon Training do not work with Swashbuckler Weapon Training unless specified.
I think that the answer is no, Gloves of Dueling do not work with Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
The wording of the class feature has not changed since Stephen Radney-MacFarland said the answer was no. Relevant FAQ: Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability? It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.) Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus. Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Mostly just mocking those that think every dex character MUST use itWell, I've just confirmed there's no other way to be even remotely effective. The game says "If you're a low-Str character in Melee, you either take Dervish Dance or you suffer a massive power loss." One feat for +4/+5 to damage, eh? And I never need Str again? Hard to justify NOT taking it. I was hoping there'd be options for other builds, but looks like I'm going to be disappointed. Stephen Radney-MacFarland Designer wrote on Dec 11, 2013, 10:04 PM: "Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into" Source. Hopefully, there will be a new feat when the Advanced Class Guide is released in August. Until then, Dervish Dance will unfortunately remain easily the best option, and almost only option, for small melee characters. Another alternative is a level of the Aldori Swordlord prestige class... but the requirements are steep, you can only get there at level 6, and the Aldori Duelling Sword is sub-optimal for a Swashbuckler as it only has a 19-20 crit threat range.
You could burn a feat and get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Wakizashi. It has the same stats as a rapier, but it can do slashing as well as piercing, and it is a light weapon that can be used with Piranha Strike. You can get free proficiency if you dip a level of Samurai or Ninja. Alternatively, you could dip two levels of Ranger and pick up Power Attack as a bonus feat. Consider using DM credit to get to level 3! Edit: Ninja'd
No, a Swashbuckler cannot currently use Gloves of Dueling.
Re: Useable Weapons I would just like to say I want the Swashbuckler to be able to use more weapons with his class features without having to pay a feat tax. As the class currently stands, Dervish Dance builds will dominate. The new Dex-to-Damage feat will mitigate this however. The Slashing Grace feat allows Swashbucklers to do something I feel they should be able to do without a feat. Maybe Swashbucklers could just get this feat at level 1 as a bonus feat. Currently, a katana is horrible weapon for a Swashbuckler to use - you have to expend two feats - EWP and Slashing Grace to use it. You would do better to use those two feats for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Longswords are also a worse option than a Rapier, but they require a feat to use. Aldori Duelling Swords actually fare even worse, as they become no better than a regular Longsword in the hands of a Swashbuckler.
I think that the Dex-Damage feat that may be coming might be something that solves the level 1 problem assuming that the only prerequisites are Dex X and Weapon Finesse. Hopefully the Dex-to-Damage feat will be able to be taken at level 1. Currently, the only way to get Dex-to-Damage at level 1 is to play a Dawnflower Dervish. My PFS Dawnflower Dervish did 1d6+9 when Battle Dancing, or 1d6+7 when not Battle Dancing. The bad fortitude save on the Dawnflower Dervish is mitigated by the ability to cast Saving Finale as an immediate action whilst Dervish Dancing when you reach level 4.
Having played a level 1 Swashbuckler in PFS, I felt like I was playing a Rogue without Sneak Attack, rather than a full BAB martial character. I also had the worst Fortitude Save in the party, and the party included 2 Wizards and an Arcanist! My damage was 1d6+2, whereas the Bloodrager did 2d6+13. I felt completely outclassed. A full BAB martial character should be able to do two things: 1. Deal damage.
The Swashbuckler cannot do either of these at low levels due to its low damage output and bad Fortitude Saves. If you see a Ghoul, run!
Here are some Paizo written abilities from various classes that could be useful for a Swashbuckler: Fighter (Mobile Fighter) Spoiler:
Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3. Fighter (Dawnflower Dervish) Spoiler:
Burst of Speed (Ex): At 3rd level, a Dawnflower dervish takes only a –1 penalty to her AC after charging. At 7th level, the Dawnflower dervish can charge with no penalty. This ability replaces armor training 1. Desert Stride (Ex): At 7th level, a Dawnflower dervish can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This benefit stacks with the benefits provided by the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats. This ability replaces armor training 2. Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a Dawnflower dervish can combine a full attack with a single move. She must forgo the attack at her highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during her movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3. Lightning Strike (Ex): At 15th level, as part of a full attack, a Dawnflower dervish can make one additional attack. This attack is at the dervish’s highest base attack bonus, but each attack in the round (including the extra one) takes a –2 penalty. This ability replaces armor training 4. Rogue (Pirate) Spoiler:
Swinging Reposition (Ex): At 2nd level, a pirate incorporates a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures into her combat style. Provided she is wearing light armor, when fighting in an environment where such structures exist, the rogue incorporates them into her Acrobatics checks by grabbing hold of the structure and swinging toward her opponent, making either a charge or a bull rush maneuver. Once she completes her attack or maneuver, she can reposition herself. Immediately after making the charge or bull rush, she can move 5 feet as a free action, even if the charge ends her turn. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the 2nd-level rogue talent. Prestige Class Chevalier Spoiler:
Aura of Courage (Su): A chevalier has an aura of courage like that of a 3rd-level paladin. Recklessness (Ex): Sometimes hasty action proves more useful than even the best laid plans. A chevalier gains a morale bonus equal to his class level on attack and damage rolls on the round he enters a battle. A chevalier only gains this bonus against an opponent (or group of opponents) once per day. Thus, he cannot leave a battle and reengage moments later to gain the benefits of this ability more than once in the same battle. Controlled Charge (Ex): At 2nd level, a chevalier no longer takes a –2 penalty to AC when charging. Stubborn Mind (Ex): At 3rd level, a chevalier gains an incredibly stubborn determination. If he is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw (though this does not prevent him from using other means to break the effect, such as a rogue’s slippery mind ability). Poison Immunity (Ex): At 3rd level, a chevalier becomes immune to poison. Prestige Class Duelist Spoiler: All of them really but especially: Enhanced Mobility (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square. Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
I agree, I would like to see some western-style fencing feats, maybe ones that are similar to the monk style feats, but have more appropriate fluff. Perhaps the Swashbuckler could get them instead of its bonus feats, or avoid prerequisites. An alternative may be to make them Swashbuckler only feats, linked to Swashbuckler levels in a similar way to the Fighter only feats. Or make new Fighter only feats, so that Fighters, Swashbucklers, Brawlers and Samurai can take them also. This may give incentive to stay in the class. Using Crane Style with a rapier doesn't really make sense, although it is legal RAW. I want my Swashbuckler to be able to have this exchange: Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?
A big problem with the Swashbuckler is that it seems nobody can build one without dipping into another class. Popular options are Monk archetype Master of Many Styles (MoMS), Paladin and Urban Barbarian. If the goal of class design is that it should be desirable to make single class characters, the Swashbuckler is a failure. I think the swashbuckler should be able to obtain easy access to the Style feats in some way other than dipping MoMS. As it stands, a MoMS dip is almost compulsory. The question is not shall I dip MoMS, but when. Perhaps if they could take the style feats as bonus feats without having to meet the prerequisites? P.S. Please fix the Fortitude save.
You don't need to take Snake Sidewind as a bonus feat, you can skip it and just grab Snake Style & Snake Fang. This allows the build to come together at level 9 for most races, and level 8 for humans.
Do you have plans for that wisdom score or are you actively applying to the winning team ? :) I think I will retrain to a halfling for the PFS game on Saturday. I like playing small characters, and think that the Swashbuckler may be one of the best classes for a small martial character. I will put up my Wisdom to 10, and combine Fate's Favored with Adaptable Luck to get +3 to saves 3 times a day without an immediate action. For my other trait I will shamelessly take Lessons of Chaldira. With that and my shirt re-roll, saves should be acceptable. I may DM credit my way through the rest of level 1 and level 2 so I don't have to be the party anchor for those games. Level 3 is a great one for the Swashbuckler, as Precise Strike and Dervish Dance both come on line. I intend to reskin my scimitar as a sabre. (I was actually disappointed when the cutlass appeared. It has exactly the same statistics as a scimitar, but it's emergence meant that you could no longer reskin your scimitar as a cutlass.)
Re: Dervish Dance and Magus:
Spoiler:
I played a Magus, and went with the Dervish Dance route. We had an all gnome party, but I decided to retire my gnome paladin due to his code causing too much PVP. I played a Goblin Magus pretending to be a Gnome, so I decided to take Dervish Dance to take advantage of the +4 to dexterity of a goblin. I actually regretted taking Dervish Dance as it was contributing so little to his damage compared the spell damage, I thought that the feat could have been better spent enhancing his spells. Re: Dervish Dance and Swashbuckler: I feel this feat is much more useful as a Swashbuckler. Depending on your build, it is better than Weapon Specialization. With the addition that Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse counts as a prerequisite for Dervish Dance, for one feat you can get dexterity for damage. I think every Swashbuckler in PFS will have this feat. I plan to take it at level 3 for for my Swashbuckler, and I am even considering that it might almost be worth it to retrain your 1st level feat at level 2 to gain Dervish Dance. I think it is important to note that the PFS builds of Swashbucklers I have seen have dipped a level of Dawnflower Dervish to get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, and some limited spell use. That Dervish Dance is not in the Core Books is irrelevant to me, and everyone else that plays PFS. PS It also appears in Qadira, Gateway to the East.
I played a level 1 Swashbuckler in The Confirmation in PFS on Tuesday night, and came to some conclusions. Our party was entirely arcane except for my Swashbuckler. The rest of the party was- 1 arcanist, 2 wizards (one of them Ezren), and a Bloodrager. Character: Spoiler:
Human Swashbuckler Str: 14
Feats: Extra panache, Combat Reflexes.
Important Gear: Masterwork Rapier, Chain Shirt, Buckler, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, other adventuring stuff.
1. My damage was appalling. The Bloodrager was hitting for 2d6 + 13. He did 15 damage at one point, and announced that was his minimum damage. I was doing 1d6+2, so my maximum damage, on a critical was 16, only one better than his worst. I got fatigued, and then my damage fell to 1d6+1, meaning even with a critical my damage would be less than the Bloodrager. I really felt that my character was a bit of a passenger in combat, and just a meat shield (and not a very good meat shield). 2. My fortitude save was the worst in the party - the wizards and arcanist had better fortitude saves and this made me a bit concerned, especially as the first encounter was with monsters that required a fortitude save on a hit. 3. The Bloodrager had only 1 AC less than mine, and when he later swopped from his two-handed weapon to sword and board, his AC was better than mine. 3. The parry was good, and I had enough panache to attempt to parry every attack. However, I only managed one parry all night which was due to bad rolls. Nonetheless, it was fun. 4. Dodging panache allowed me to step back, and avoid a full attack and saved my Swashbuckler's life, so that was good. 5. Derring-do allowed me to make a critical acrobatics check. Conclusions - I felt I contributed little to combat. It was a bit like playing a rogue without sneak attack, and with less skills. The Bloodrager made a much better martial character.
In exchange for a -2 to hit, you can also use inappropriately sized weapons with the Swashbuckler abilities. For example, a medium swashbuckler can use a small Lucerne Hammer. I think this loophole should be shut down. Spoiler: Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Has anyone tried a swashbuckler against a Black Pudding? It's a CR 7, and I think it would put a stop to most Swashbucklers.
Sorry that you feel that way. I found your posts useful, and I hope the developers also think so.
Yes, the only way a dexterity build gets more for parry & riposte is if the dexterity swashbuckler can make more ripostes than a strength swashbuckler. If riposte becomes an immediate action, then this advantage of the dexterity swashbuckler disappears.
It does help you if it allows to take a riposte - that's an extra attack. If you have a high dexterity, you can make multiple ripostes, but only if your panache doesn't run out. Your dexterity build could make 4 ripostes, whereas your strength build could make only 2. This is really the only thing the dexterity build has going for it. The dexterity build does have the problem that it requires more panache than the strength build though. If riposte is made into an immediate action, then it will be another nail in the coffin for the dexterity build.
I agree. Signature Deed on Opportune Parry is very good, in fact so good, I can't see why you would put it on anything else. If you use Recovery against a creature without reach, it is very strong also, allowing you to prevent full attacks. As a result you want to have as many attacks of opportunity available as possible, and this is one area where the dexterity build is clearly superior to a strength build. A dexterity build will be able to parry many more attacks, and get more riposte attacks. The extra attacks will result in a large increase in DPR vs a strength build, at least until you run out of panache for the riposte... I did a playtest battle between a level 12 Swashbuckler vs level 12 Amiri & Valeros, and found the Swashbuckler alone could beat their combined forces with a combination of Signature Deed (Opportune Parry) and Recovery Deed. If the Swashbuckler has the crane style feats, I am sure they would be almost untouchable. I also found that the loss of accuracy caused by power attack was undesirable for both the attacker and the swashbuckler. This leads me to the conclusion that you could go without Power Attack as a swashbuckler. However, you would be quite useless against monsters immune to precision damage without the extra damage from Power Attack. Opportune Parry + Signature Deed is also excellent against touch attacks. However, it doesn't make up for their weak saves!
I would like to see this class tied more to charisma. As it stands now, a Bloodrager has more use for charisma than the Swashbuckler. I would really like to see the Swashbuckler get some deeds that could be useful out of combat, maybe a deed called 'witty quip', which works like derring-do, but applies to Charisma based skills, such as Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate. I don't know if I would currently build a swashbuckler that is based around combat expertise and combat manoeuvre feats. The Pommel Swipe deed can be used if I want to trip, and Targetted Strike can be used to disarm and trip more effectively than a trip or disarm combat manoeuvre.
I have been trying to put together a high level Swashbuckler for a playtest, and Pommel Strike as written prompts a lot of questions: FAQ: Does Weapon Finesse work with Pommel Strike?
I currently assume that the answer to all these questions is no.
Sadly, the gnome hooked hammer is a two-handed weapon, so I don't think it qualifies. Spoiler:
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. You could use a taiaha though!
Good point, I will have to remember that for my 1st level PFS Swashbuckler. As I intend to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level, I guess after his first adventure he will be buying a masterwork buckler (0 ACP). Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse as currently written grants the benefits of Weapon Finesse, but not the penalties. Hence the ACP penalty of the shield shouldn't apply.
The scimitar build would have weapon specialisation, making it the winner. Point taken, but the scimitar build would be one feat behind the rapier build. That one feat may be extremely good - for example - crane riposte. In any case, I think it illustrates that a scimitar build is not compulsory, and a rapier build is highly competitive, especially at low levels :-)
Yeah, but that won't keep up later, when the Dervish Dance Swashbuckler gets the feats he missed out on early to get Dervish Dance. At level 8: Spoiler:
The Dread Pirate Westley Roberts Human Swashbuckler 8 (20 point buy) Str 13 Dex 18 (16 + 2 racial +2 level) Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14 Rapier Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialisation (Rapier), Defiant Luck, Inexplicable Luck, Greater Weapon Focus. Scimitar Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Defiant Luck, Inexplicable Luck, Weapon Focus Equipment: Mithral Chain Shirt + 2, Buckler + 1, Cloak of Resistance + 2, Rapier +1, Agile or Scimitar + 2, Fancy Pirate Clothes, Clear Ioun Stone resonating in Wayfinder, Ring + 1, Amulet +1, Belt of Dex +2. Melee: rapier +1, Agile: + 18 ( 1d6+10 / 15-20) + 8 precise strike.
Winner: Rapier! I think if a DM allows Dervish Dance, they will allow Agile Weapons. Slashing is better at penetrating DR, but as Westley is a pirate, his rapier is better as he may have to fight underwater. Also, this comparison highlights the importance of Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse not counting as a prerequisite for Dervish Dance. If you remove the Weapon Finesse feat tax on Dervish Dance, the Scimitar will be better.
I decided to work out the DPR of two builds, to see if Dervish Dance is as compulsory as everyone says. One build uses a rapier, the other a scimitar. The target has an assumed AC of 20. Panache to double the damage of precise strike was not modeled. Hopefully I have not made any mathematics errors… I'm sure people will correct me if I have... :-) The results were interesting. The Build at level 4: Spoiler:
The Dread Pirate Westley Roberts
Str 13
AC: 22 (Armour +5, Buckler +2, Dex +4, Nimble + 1)
BAB: 4 Rapier Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialisation (Rapier).
Equipment: Chain Shirt + 1, Buckler + 1, Cloak of Resistance + 1, Rapier or Scimitar + 1, Fancy Pirate Clothes. Melee: rapier + 10 ( 1d6+4 / 18-20) + 4 precise strike.
Power Attack: -2 / +4/ DPR Scimitar, no power attack: 6.89
Winner Rapier! :-)
Again, this is not a rules quote. If it is in the FAQ, please link it or quote it.
Last sentence: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." Real world examples are irrelevant to the rules.
Hmmm.... A Titan Mauler gets the ability Jotungrip! Spoiler:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts made against these weapons. This greatly expands the weapon selection! With a two level Barbarian dip, you can one hand and finesse a Nodachi!
A lance wielded in one hand still counts as a two-handed weapon.
I am concerned that the optimal build appears to be dumping Charisma. To fix this, I would suggest that Charisma be made more important to the class. Suggestions: Allow Charisma to replace the relevant ability score required to qualify for bonus feats - e.g. Allow Charisma 13 to qualify for Power Attack instead of Strength 13, and Charisma 13 to qualify for Combat Expertise, instead of Intelligence 13. Make a feat or ability to add Charisma to damage. Ensure it doesn't stack with dexterity to damage.
Last sentence: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." PRD: "Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm." It is not in your off hand!
I agree.
I agree. Sounds fun and would make the class unique.
Not sure on this one. Does it need both?
I Strongly agree.
Thoughts so far – Great class, but the bad saves will probably make it squishy, especially at high levels. 1. I think the swashbuckler needs something to make up for its bad saves – maybe Charisma to saves like Divine Grace, or an ability to spend panache points to add Charisma to saves. This could replace the worthless Bravery. 2. The weapon choice needs to be expanded – the current selection is bizarre – a swashbuckler can wield a Heavy Pick, Morning Star or Taiaha, but not an Aldori Duelling Sword. I would like to see the Swashbuckler able to use all light weapons, one handed weapons and all weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse. (Including the Elven Curve Blade – this would give this weapon a niche.) 3. Precise strike needs to lose its many restrictions – I don’t know why it is also precision damage, as the Precise Strike of the Duellist is not. 4. I would like to see Dexterity to damage or maybe Charisma to damage instead of Strength to damage as a class feature. If it is Charisma to damage there needs to be wording to prevent stacking with current methods of Dexterity to damage. As it currently stands many Swashbucklers will end up with Dervish Dance or Agile Weapons. 5. Opportune Parry and Riposte probably should be broken up and spread out –Parry at level 1, and Riposte at level 3. Also, Opportune Parry is really bad for small Swashbucklers – I think this should maybe be a -4 for every size larger than medium, or dropped entirely. Giving Opportune Parry and Riposte at level 1 means you have a feat tax of combat reflexes at level 1. 6. Swashbuckler Finesse should function as Weapon Finesse for prerequisites and be given at level 1. It could be broken up so that +4 bonuses come in at level 2. As it currently stands Weapon Finesse is a pre-requisite for Dervish Dance and Piranha Strike which will both be popular feats for the Swashbuckler. This means half of Swashbuckler Finesse is useless to many builds. 7. I think Evasive should be also broken up, rather than all given in one go at level 11. 8. Pommel Strike – How does this work? Does it count as a trip attack? Does it provoke an attack of opportunity? |
