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Barzillai is afraid of feminine women; it makes it fairly obvious in book 6. I agree with how Pnakotus Detsujin said it.
One of my players realized this so she had her character show up for the final fight against Thrune wearing an incredibly elaborate evening gown as a way to throw him off and to infuriate him. (It worked)


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Sunderstone wrote:
Oddly, this completely sells me. I might have to buy the PDFs now. There were some mediocre comments about this AP which dashed my hopes TBH. As a grognard of the old Desert of Desolation series, I'll take another look.

The only reason I gave it an honest look was because all of my players said they wanted me to run it due to it taking place in the equivalent of ancient Egypt. I'm incredibly glad they talked me into it. (And no, it's not just undead and traps. Yes, undead are a main enemy but they're varied enough that it doesn't feel like the same thing over and over again. Having someone decent at traps is kind of required. But having a PC that can do research in a library is also required.... and there's some good politics during one of the books... I could go on forever about how much better Mummy's Mask is than people give it credit for, but I won't.)

And since you like hexploration you'll enjoy a part in the middle of the AP ;)


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Hell's Rebels is a favourite of mine. The group I had for it was amazing and became incredibly invested in their characters, the city, and the NPCs. The story is great, feels open but still fairly straightforward with what to do. So many NPCs that some will get lost in the shuffle, but that's okay as it allows the players to focus and interact with the ones that they want to without the AP suffering for it.

Mummy's Mask is also up there for me as I really like the three distinct parts. It's a mystery done in a way where information is slowly revealed to the party rather than leaving it up to the players to solve a puzzle. The AP seems to be overlooked a lot. The board for it isn't very busy but I think that's more because it's a solidly written AP that doesn't have GMs scratching their heads/trying to fix it. My players assumed it was a dungeon crawl (because it starts off that way), then thought it became a horror survival game... now they're halfway through the third book and have realized that the type of game keeps on changing.


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There's no way that I can think of, short of PCs capturing Tiarise or someone and managing to get the information out of her, that they would be able to find out about his heart or where it is.
(It's non-detectable due to the powerful magic around it, and if they somehow manage to get to where it is before the end of book 4 they're likely all going to get killed.)


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Bellona -- Seriously, why would you spoil the end of the newest AP without using a spoiler tag?


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Fantomas wrote:
Solstines: Also, if possible, place the Solstine siblings (they are described only as "hot-headed would-be rebels" in book 5) in this book somewhere, fighting on the side of the rebels. They should die. This will set up the group's encounter with Raenna Solstine in Book 5, page 21.

TL;DR: Add the Solstine's in early, try to kill them on-screen, if it doesn't work and they survive, that's okay.

I introduced the Solstine brothers in book 1. One of my players was paranoid that a group of dottari were following him across the bridge so he started to try to lose them and looked for somewhere to hide. I had him roll Bluff to try to not be obvious about it and one of the Solstine's saw him searching. The Solstine told the PC to hide under his apple cart and from that point on the brothers were eyes and ears for the budding rebellion. The 'apple cart vendors' became favourite NPCs of the group, one of them started to hero-worship the face of the rebellion, it was all great fun!
I didn't want to force their deaths and wanted it to be on-screen (and give the players a chance to prevent it). The Solstine's went to the Masquerade even though they were warned away by the group because it was too good of a chance to make contacts for their business. There they became a target for Tiarise because the PCs were showing too much concern for them so Tiarise knew attacking the Solstine's would hurt the group. (I added Tiarise in to that fight because in my campaign she ended up too much of an important villain and needed to be at the end of a book rather than a speed bump in book 4). When Tiarise turned towards the brothers the face of the rebellion made enough of a nuisance of himself that he became the target of Phantasmal Killer instead, and thus made a prophesy I had spelled out a few sessions earlier come true.
Yes, this made it so that brothers lived, but interacting with their grieving grandmother as written in book 5 would've been easy and this all made it much more memorable.

Fantomas wrote:
Red Dragon: Have the group find out that Barzillai once killed a red dragon named Adrakash. This will hopefully impress the group and it foreshadows undead Adrakash's appearance in book 6, page 33.

Don't forget that Thrune doesn't encounter Adrakash until during the events in book 2.


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The two that I'm the worst at:
1) Concentration/casting defensively (specifically, d20 roll + caster level + ability mod? No ability mod? I dunno... look it up. And yes, it's d20 + CL + ability mod)
2) If SLA provoke AoO (Yes, they do)

(And then other things like spells, conditions, carrying capacity, anything on a chart, etc.)


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I had 72 civilians die after the number was reduced from masquerade points.
I was surprised it was so low, but at the beginning they REALLY focused on saving people and opening the front doors.


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I had the random encounter guards in the Devil's Nursery be aggressive guards that were looking to cause problems for the tieflings.


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CorvusMask -- Paizo has said somewhere that the bestiaries will be available as PDFs once the book is released.


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I'm with Chromantic Durgon... the assumptions from the "never fudge" crowd as to when the "fudging is fine sometimes" crowd is willing to fudge seems ridiculous.
When someone says that they occasionally fudge what the die says I'm fairly certain they don't mean "I want this thing to happen so I'm going to completely ignore the dice" and actually mean something more akin to "if my dice are rolling really high all night and it's going to result in a PC death that isn't fun then I'm going to miss a little more often/not confirm this crit" rather than "it doesn't matter what my players do, I'm never going to kill them based on the dice that I roll"
When a GM is fudging dice they have to be so incredibly careful so that the group doesn't figure it out. Constantly missing/the PCs always succeeding based on die rolls the GM makes out of sight would likely make the group think the dice are being fudged.
Enemies using stupid tactics is a terrible option and I'd suggest subtracting 2 from each attack roll and see if the enemy still hits or lower the amount of damage you're doing instead. Bad tactics are obvious and the players will probably feel insulted by them; doing 26 damaged instead of 34 won't be noticed by the players.

Occasionally saving a PC from a disappointing death brought on by a bunch of high rolls in a row isn't taking away their agency, it's making them not get frustrated at dying due to 3 crits in a row.

Never fudging a die roll is fine, so long as your group doesn't get frustrated/mad (and hold on to that for a long time) when a PC dies a disappointing death due to the enemies rolling stupidly well all night.

Fudging to save an NPC you/the group likes seems ridiculous.
Fudging so that the players succeed at a knowledge check/perception check seems weird to me because I prefer my players to roll those checks and I trust them to act accordingly. If there's something they NEED to know/find either make it so that it's not so unknown/well hidden or have more than one way for them to learn/find it.


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CorvusMask wrote:

I'm honestly kinda confused about order of stretch goals yeah. Like Candlemere expansion sounds lot more interesting (if you have played the AP or CRPG, you know its related to certain thingy) than some of the add ones. And the way companions were spaced out makes it impossible to get all of them( I wouldn't have been surprised if we didn't get Octavia&Regongar and tiefling twins at all since both of those are basically "pair of characters sharing a story line", but Ekundayo, Jaethal and Harrim didn't have any chance to get in it seems :'D Kind of wondering why Amiri got priority over them since as iconic having her be tied to one of aps more strongly feels weird)

Like honestly, I think it would have been better to have no companion book at all than having nagging feeling of missing few from complete baggage. That way stretch goals could have been reserved for other stuff and there wouldn't be feeling of "this book is gonna be incomplete"

I haven't played much of the CRPG yet, but I assume that Season of the Bloom will add important bits to the story and help integrate the ending better. (Assuming they don't change the AP as much as they did the CRPG and have the BBEG so active.) So having that in the book before expanding Candlemere makes sense, especially since Candlemere being as it was originally written is fine. It doesn't feel like something is missing.

And having the campaign go to level 20 is a nice idea. I hope that it's done in a way that makes sense and doesn't feel tacked on. (Which is a big concern for me.)

Not getting all of the companions from the CRPG is a huge disappointment for me. I find there's not enough NPCs in the original AP to really feel like you have many choices for who's going to fill the kingdom roles (which, yes, as a GM is easy to fix by adding more NPCs of your own creation, but the CRPG characters seem really interesting!)
Although we likely won't unlock them all, I'm hoping Paizo includes at least a low level stat block for each of the CRPG characters and a brief write up, like what they do for a few NPCs in the current AP books.

Paizo -- Please have at least a 2 page write-up with a stat block for each of the CRPG characters!


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Gargs454 wrote:
Yeah I plan to use the marriage contract too, though I have a feeling my players will simply shrug and say "Well, sucks to be you." I mean, this is the group that signed a treaty with Hargulka and gave the keep in Varnhold to the spriggans. We'll see what happens when/if they actually manage to rescue the remaining Varnholders of course.

WOW!!

I hope a lot of them giving land away is either greatly rewarded or majorly bites them in their collective asses.

And I don't know which one I'd prefer to see happen.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
Hate to break it to you but i'm 99% sure that line is in the Pathfinder rulebook, as well as in just about every GMing section in just about every tabletop rpg ever.

Page 402 of the Core book:

Cheating and Fudging: We all know that cheating is
bad. But sometimes, as a GM, you might find yourself in
a situation where cheating might improve the game. We
prefer to call this “fudging” rather than cheating, and
while you should try to avoid it when you can, you are the
law in your world, and you shouldn’t feel bound by the
dice....

Edit: Ninja'ed but keeping it as I wrote it anyways.


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Valantrix -- Paizo responded on the Game On website saying to contact Paizo's customer support team and they'll help you out putting your order together.
e-mail them at: customer.service@paizo.com


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Valantrix -- Google Chrome keeps asking me if I want to translate the page even though everything appears to be English. There's a button in the top, right-hand corner that allows people to change languages, even though that only appears to change a small amount of the text.
Perhaps it's due to that button that your text to speech software isn't working properly?
I don't know if your software can bypass that or not, but I've posted on the campaign asking if anyone knows a way around it and I've reached out directly to the company for you.

If you want to reach out to them their e-mail address is: contact@gameontabletop.com

Hopefully they can figure something out for you. I'll let you know when I hear from them.


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Oli Ironbar wrote:
@Warped Savant, Does figuring out HP values with skills add to the role play value at your table? Does it take something away from the fun?

The players seem to like it. But it's important to be aware that I almost never have them roll for it.

Like, it might come up once or twice in a full adventure path.
Anything even slightly humanoid is described as being wounded at different points (similar to what Balkoth just described) in vague terms. (Or "Yeah, it's very nearly dead"). It's easy to tell if two enemies that are the same creature and one is more damaged than the other because that's something the characters would be able to see.
Elementals are described as nearly falling apart and large chunks of it has been battered away.
Undead are similar to humanoid but with body parts dangling/being severed.
Aberrations are usually described (but I think I had a player roll for one I had used in Kingmaker).
Oozes are similar to elementals.
Outsiders depend, but are usually similar to humanoid.

But actually telling the players hit points (with or without a roll) isn't something that I think takes away from the game. I ask them to roll when they want to know and I think it will add to the game. If it's a generic/common monster I'll just flat out tell them. ("Hey, you're using this super powerful spell on a skeleton. Skeletons have, like, less than 5 hit points and your minimum damage is 37... are you sure you want to use that spell?")
If it's something rare/that they haven't experienced before and is a weird thing AND they haven't hurt it yet, I'll totally let them use the high level spell and then say how much in the negatives the monster is because that kind of overkill should be kind of obvious and it makes everyone laugh. ("Yeah, so it takes 45 damage, so it's at negative... umm... 39.")

BUT I've known some GMs that refuse to do anything like that and are terrible at letting you know how damaged monsters are.
I've been a player with a GM like that and it drove me nuts. That's why I'm really open and obvious about it with my players. I like showing them "under the hood" because they all seem to enjoy the game more when it's like that.
I use a computer program for the monster (Combat Manager) otherwise I'd likely write out the current hit points (or possibly just how much damage the monsters have taken) right out in the open.

I want my players to win and I want them to have fun doing it. The games that I run have never felt like it's me versus them and if they get a laugh out of realizing that the monster only has 2 hit points left due to a roll being low damage but then the monster gets a major hit on them they laugh and like it because that 30 damage could have been avoided if only they had rolled a 5 instead of a 3.

As for lethal/non-lethal damage I let players know how dazed creatures are, especially if they're humanoid, and if the player is likely to accidentally kill someone that they're trying to knockout I'll usually tell them so long as they have points in the heal skill or have them roll for it.


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Charlie Brooks wrote:

I'm curious as to what people think this project would do on Kickstarter.

Looking at Kobold Press, which is well-established and makes high-quality products funded through Kickstarter, Tales of Old Margreve barely cleared $100k and their current one, Empire of Ghouls, is at $84k. Both seem like successful campaigns.

Granted, their monster books pulled in $200k+, but I suspect that monster books are bigger draws than adventures.

Now, Monte Cook Games regularly does half a million dollars or more through Kickstarter. I don't know what their secret is, but they also don't seem to do adventures through the platform.

The Kingmaker computer game almost cleared $1 million on Kickstarter, but we're talking a much larger audience there.

Do those who would prefer Kickstarter think the campaign would do Monte Cook numbers on Kickstarter? Or just that it would have cleared a few more stretch goals by now?

Kickstarter would have gotten more eyes on the product, and more eyes = more buys.

How much more? No idea. Good for Paizo for doing it on a different platform as that's good advertisement for Games on Tabletop. They're going to be doing the book, so they've succeeded. Sure, they would have gotten more money on Kickstarter, but the stretch goal levels would likely be different so who knows if we'd unlock more of them or not? But if it was a straight port over with all the same goals (as they originally are, rather than what they're at now) I'd be shocked if the campaign wasn't already past the "Barony Expansion" stretch goal (which was originally a $300,000 goal).

Something to keep in mind is that there are GMs out there that don't come to the boards. I think I GMed 4 different modules before I even glanced at the Paizo website, so there are GMs out there that would love this and may not learn about it in time. And, as I've said before, I think it's a shame that the campaign is only running for 15 days rather than 30 or 45.

Would they be at double their current number? No, I don't think so. But I think they'd be pretty close to it.


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Taking on Choral for the end of the campaign would be amazing!
And provides a different ending from both the original AP and the CRPG.
Tie it in with something as simple as destroying Nyrissa/her realm releases him and his armies as she had captured him trying to test her abilities or some such thing.


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Fair point.
(That being said, I signed up as soon as I had the chance even though I have the original books and don't plan on running Kingmaker again but I wanted to own the updated collection because I love Kingmaker.)

And yeah, I'm happy if it gets to level 20 and the map folio, but I have no idea what other plans they have for stretch goals. Some might really appeal to me, we'll have to see.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
If Paizo funded this project in their usual way, they’d have to make all the decisions in the dark (without knowing how things would sell). As such, we’d end up with a compilation more limited in scope - like the Curse of the Crimson Throne compilation. With no idea of the market for addons and expansions, they’d have been more conservative and we’d have got less in the way of options/content.

I agree with you, but there's also the fact that if some of the stretch goals aren't reached people will be disappointed.

For example, if the "Barony" expansion isn't reached people will be frustrated that Paizo had more ways to customize the game in mind but those customizations won't be released because not enough money was thrown at the pre-order campaign.

I prefer to have the thought "Aw, too bad they didn't do this thing I wanted" instead of "it's too bad that they didn't get enough money so they aren't going to do this thing I wanted."


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necromental wrote:
...short funding time...

I'm shocked it's only 2 weeks instead of at least a month!

Something like this needs some time to get out there (especially on a not as well known platform), and since it won't be delivered in over a year it seems like an odd choice to give such a short funding time.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
The Map Folio isn’t showing as an unlockable as part of the campaign? Unless it’s part of the flip-mats?

They've just updated the campaign page to show that the map folio is a stretch goal of $230,000 and will be included for anyone that pledges at the Ruler/Spymaster level or higher.


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Man, I wish this was on Kickstarter instead... gameontabletop is telling me that I've paid for the project but also says I have to pay the exact same amount...
So I think I've paid?
It also looks like you can't change your pledge or add any add-ons after you've paid?

I've e-mailed the website asking about this; hopefully I have an answer by the morning because this is leaving a terrible first impression on me.

And I just saw that the 50 x Weight Markers are other, unknown things that may get unlocked later?
It's unfortunate that things aren't being clearly presented. I may have backed a higher tier if I knew what the different tiers were actually going to receive.


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WormysQueue wrote:
...and also assuming that some of the rules used for that AP would be improved upon...

That's what Ultimate Campaign already does.


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The 5E stuff appears to just be a bestiary. Any other system changes will have to be done by the GM.
I would assume, based on RotRL and CotCT hardcovers there isn't going to be a whole host of new bad guys to fight so you'll likely be able to substitute the existing PF2E monsters with the 1st edition monsters without a problem.

Or am I missing something?


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I think this is fantastic!
It'll be a while before I jump over to PF2E as I still have a few 1st edition APs to run, and I've already ran Kingmaker for my group, but I'll be buying this anyways because I love the campaign and I've wanted a hardcover collection of it even though I have the original soft covers.

I'd be disappointed if some of Dudemeister's changes/additions weren't included, especially what he did with the centaurs giving the quests in the book rather than random people asking the rulers to do random things. (Having the centaurs give the quests as a way to build trust with them makes WAY more sense than random NPC villagers wanting the rulers to go and get random items for them.)


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As an alchemist you could learn Owl's Wisdom. (Or get a wand of it so that you're not using spell slots)
Cap of the Free Thinker would help (because re-rolls are pretty awesome)
[url]"https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ioun%20Stone%20 Pale%20Green%20Prism"]Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone[/url] gives a +1 to saves.
Headband of Fortune's Favourgives a +1 luck bonus.


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roguerouge wrote:
Warped Savant wrote:

My group wanted a bank heist style of session during book 3 so I found one online that I could easily adjust to suit Kintargo/the AP better.

The group was quite happy to really screw Thrune over before attacking him directly.
Oh? Which one?

The players did it after Menador Gap but before the Masquerade. They wanted to steal the money Thrune used to pay the dottari/hellknights; I don't remember how much I had in there as the PCs intended to give it all away anyways. I probably looked up how much guards were paid and multiplied that by a bunch. I used THIS as the skeleton, had the entrance be at set of stairs going down at the back of the Records Hall (so the PCs had to get through the defenses of that room first, using the information from book 4), had Erinyes Devils come out of the paintings (but used the description for Interrogator Devils and had them size large without making any adjustments) and a regular Erinyes Devil guarding the main vault. I also changed the stuff in the main vault so that one had the items found in the Records Hall from book 4 and redacted (or ready to be redacted) books. And changed how the two paths into the vault worked... and probably some other things.

Slight change to book 3 & 4 as a result of this:
Tiarise wasn't in the Records Hall when the PCs went after the vault, Thrune had Tiarise help with the Masquerade and had Cizmekris make sure she didn't teleport away by Ciz casting Dimensional Anchor on her during the fight. So in book 4 I had Aluceda Zhol defending the Records Hall instead of.

Here, I'll just post the rewritten post from that link behind a spoiler tag.

The Vault Job:
THE VAULT JOB

BIG PROBLEMS
Before the would-be thieves can even get close to the vault, these Big Problems must be resolved. There are a couple of ways to do this: You can collaborate with the players and have them establish what the Big Problems are. Or, you can use the Big Problems I suggest below. The point of the Big Problem is to identify an obstacle that must be overcome with an Outlandish Solution.
No matter what, the Big Problem will be resolved by the Outlandish Solution; however, depending on how the scene(s) involving that Big Problem play out, other stakes are in play. As the scenes play out - actions taken, ability checks made - it may just cost them something in the process.

Getting into the Records House
Only families that own one of the vault rooms in the basement have access to the room at the back of the Records House. The guards are familiar with each of the Noble Houses and their families so bluffing their way in will be particularily difficult.

Remaining Quiet if there is a Fight
Loud fighting will draw attention from the guard and people working in the Records Hall. They will shout for reinforcements which arrive in 1D6 minutes (subtract 1 minute for DC 10 Diplomacy and 1 minute for every 5 above that)

Access to the Vault
The Church of Asmodeus have security measures that can thwart even the most concerted of efforts to rob the vaults. Even getting close to the vault, let alone getting inside, is a major challenge. The stakes in play here might be gold, the promise of favors that must be fulfilled, or leaving incriminating evidence behind that may come back to haunt the adventurers.

The Other Key
As part of their security measures, the Church of Asmodeus uses a system of dual control when it comes to locks and keys. In order to open very secure vaults, two people must use two different keys at the same time. Rexus has but one of these keys. The stakes here might again be gold, favors, or accidentally tipping off House Thrune who put guards in the lift just in case.

An Escape Plan
Once the theft of goods in their care becomes known (and that'll happen quickly for sure), there will be precious little time to get out of the vaults and the Records House. There needs to be a plan in place or else the adventurers are as good as caught. Again, the stakes here might be gold or favors or anything else that's reasonable for the situation.

OUTLANDISH SOLUTIONS
This is the players' role! Don't you be coming up with solutions for them! The key thing to get across to them is that, whatever craziness they come up with, it's going to definitely work (but maybe at a cost). So encourage them to come up with Rube-Goldberg style solutions and/or cinematically pulpy actions. Try to get one character to deal with one Big Problem - that character is the "lead," and the rest of the characters act in support as "features." Set some stakes for the scene(s), then play them out, throwing some dice if you find actions to have uncertain outcomes. Cut the scene when it's been resolved and jump to the next one. For example, if a player proposes he calls upon his Criminal Contact to get The Other Key, present a social interaction scene with that contact. If the player does well (and rolls well) in the scene, then he gets the key, no problem. If he doesn't do so well (or rolls poorly), then he gets the key but it costs him something.

THE TWIST
At a point that most makes sense in the action (after the PCs are in the Lift or Vault), one of the four Big Problems come back to threaten the whole scheme. As it turns out, one of the adventurers' Outlandish Solutions just doesn't work out even when they thought it would. Choose one that'll be most interesting or just pick one at random. Then throw that monkey wrench at the characters and see how the players deal with it. It might be that The Other Key doesn't work or the airship they arranged for their Escape Plan isn't at the docking port. Whatever it is, give the players a fair chance of resolving it, rolling ability checks or the like when the outcome of their actions are uncertain.

THE LIFT
Entrance: A grand marble arch bounds a set of heavy stone and metal doors that lead into the area of the lift. On the inside the arch is incribed in Infernal: "The Eyes of the Amaimon Be Upon You."

The Lift: A magically-powered apparatus that can be controlled to hold a half-ton of weight and raise or lower to or from the vault. It is emblazoned with the seal of House Thrune. It cannot be used unless it is unlocked (see below). Once unlocked, touching the Infernal runes will send it up or down after a short pause to allow for people to step on the platform.

Paintings: On the walls west, north, and east of the lift are fine paintings. The west painting depicts an interrogator devil observing her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail I signing the Cheliax Covenant with Asmodeus with the Menador Mountains in the background. Knowledge to know it was painted by the famous artist Deft Otak. The northern painting shows House Thrune fighting against a massive army with devils coming down the mountains from behind the opposing army. The artist name has been forgotten by time. The final painting, on the east wall, shows her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail I sitting upon her throne with the legions of hell standing behind her. Knowledge to know it was painted by Welv Naldra.

Hexagonal Pillars: These pillars are constructed of metal and stone. On each side are letters in Infernal script. On the SW pillar are the letters, H - K - L - D - Z - G. On the NW pillar are the letters, C - E - I - O - Q - R. On the SE pillar are the letters, V - N - B - T - S - N. On the NE pillar are the letters, W - X - A - F - J - Y. The pillars can be rotated clockwise which each face of hexagon pointing toward the Infernal runes on the lift apparatus. When placed in the correct sequence, the lift is unlocked with an audible "click." If, however, the wrong sequence is set (all four pillars must have been manipulated in some fashion), then an interrogator devil is summoned from one of the paintings and it attacks. Three manticores can be summoned in this fashion after which the lift completely shuts down, useless until reset by the Silver Keys.

I - D, II - O, III - W, IIII - N. The initials on the two paintings provide a clue to this. As well, the only letters of the alphabet missing from the hexagonal pillars are "U" and "P," which may provide a hint since this lift is at the first floor and can't go up at all.

Wait - isn't this a problem with One True Solution? Hell no - the players remembered to bring a rogue along, right? Good. The rogue can always try to hotwire the lift or whatever - it just takes more time and probably has a chance of failure. If that's the case, consider adjudicating failure on the check as "progress combined with a setback." For example, the rogue gets the thing working, but the thieves' tools are ruined or it takes up more time than expected or it shocks the crap out of him for 2d10 unholy damage.

At the bottom of the lift shaft, two metal doors open to trapped hallways which lead into the vault proper. Once past those hazards, the adventurers will have to deal with a shortage of time, their own greed in the face of immeasurable wealth, a precarious pit, and a guardian in the form of an erinyes devil that floats silently above the pit and will accost anyone who is not affiliated with House Thrune or in the company of the same. In addition to its normal abilities, it can also innately detect the keys to the vault and will try to take said keys as its primary objective.

Remember, the characters have only a five minute window including the time they spent on the lift to successfully get what they came for and get out before a guard rotation comes around. If any traps are set off, however, the guard rotation shows up one minute later.

FEATURES OF THE AREA
The Lift: There is an Infernal rune carved onto the wall northeast of the lift that can send it back up.

Beyond the Northern Door: A 20-foot-long empty hallway ends at a locked metal door with no obvious keyhole, doorknob, or mechanism. Above the door is carved in Infernal: "The Wise Tongue of Lord Morikkan is the Key." Along the walls are variously-carved devil faces, mouths agape as if talking, four on each side of the hallway (about 5 feet apart from each other). There is an obvious seam on the ceiling at the midpoint of the corridor.

Inside each of the carvings' mouths is a stone button. If the correct button is chosen, the door at the end of the hallway unlocks and can be pushed open. However, the seam on the ceiling marks the edge of a huge block of stone, a 10-foot cube of dense rock that will fall when the wrong button is depressed. It also blocks further passage into the vault from this direction. The best way to avoid this from happening is to know what Lord Morrikan looks like which may be certain or uncertain (perhaps a Knowledge (History) check is in order to know what type of devil Lord Morrikan is) depending on the established backgrounds of the PCs in the scenario. A clever rogue might also be able to detect and disable the trap with time (of which there isn't much) and effort. If anyone is standing under the block when the trap is sprung, they should make a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw or take 4d10 bludgeoning damage (half damage on a save) and is restrained until freed by an ally making a DC 16 Strength check to pull them out. While restrained in this fashion, the character takes another 1d10 damage per round.

Faces: Nemesis Devil, Bearded Devil, Apostate Devil, Accomplice Devil, Warmonger Devil, *Contract Devil, Vengeance Devil, Accuser Devil

The carving that correctly depicts Lord Morikkan is the third one on the left.

Beyond the Eastern Door: A 20-foot-long hallway ends in a door covered in sharp iron spikes that bears the sigil of House Thrune. The hallway-side of the door leading to this corridor is peppered with holes. A groove runs down the walls on either side from door to door. Above the spiked door is Infernal script: "Know the Creation and the Destruction." On slightly raised stones ix names are carved in the ground at regular intervals between the doors (left to right, closest to farthest starting from the lift): Tanessen (most powerful in Kintargo), Taranik (DC 20 History, first commander of first Hellknight (order of the rack)), Mandraxaid (DC 15 History, first high priest of Asmodeus in Kintargo), Asgavan (once held the throne), Leroung (academics & arcanists, pursues knowledge), Tasetas (DC History, final high priest of Aroden), Sarini (DC 15 History, First Lord-Mayor after civil war)

The key to avoiding this trap is knowing which family names are historical firsts or lasts. Again, this might be certain for characters of particular established backgrounds and uncertain for the rest (and deserving of an Knowledge (History or Noble) check). Stepping on the correct names (Mandraxaid (DC 15 History, first high priest of Asmodeus in Kintargo), Tasetas (DC History, final high priest of Aroden), Taranik (DC 20 History, first commander of first Hellknight order), Sarini (DC 15 History, First Lord-Mayor after civil war)) is safe and unlocks the door when the final one is stepped on. Stepping on an incorrect name activates the trap: The door closest to the lift slams shut and locks while the spiked door rolls along the tracks in the walls at 5 feet per round. If it makes contact with a creature, it inflicts 4d10 piercing damage and 1d10 piercing damage per round of contact. Once the spikes make contact with the holes of the door opposite it, the trap shuts down and waits to be reset by the Silver Keys.

Minor Vaults: There are eight minor vaults here, each containing closed chests, sacks, and crates that contain vast amounts of gold and the like. The doors are locked iron portcullises. Once past those, a character trying to snatch treasure as quickly as possible can grab 100 gp for each container in the vault per round. (So that's 200 gp to 500 gp per turn depending on the vault.) The locks are increasingly complex, however, starting at DC 15 for a rushed lockpicking job on the least-filled minor vault and escalating by +2 for each step up thereafter to a DC 21. Remember, there is a half-ton weight limit to the lift too!

Pit: A 20-foot-square pit yawns open here, with hellfire 40 feet below the opening. Falling in inflicts 4D10 unholy damage, 4d6 bludgeoning damage and knocks the creature prone. At regular intervals, a magically-generated gust of wind blows downward from vents in the ceiling above the pit. This makes jumping across from one side to another uncertain in most cases, requiring either a DC 18 Strength or Intelligence check to power through or time the gust just so.

Control Panels: Flanking either side of the pit are stairs that lead into chambers wherein a single control panel is mounted on the north wall (in the east chamber) or the east wall (in the north chamber). In the center of the control panel is a keyhole. When the proper key is placed in each keyhole and turned at the same time, the main vault door opens and floor covering the pit slowly appears and provides access to the vault.

The Vault: Inside the vault is a single dais upon which rests the gold and silver for paying city employees. There are also two doors in this vault behind these locked doors (DC 20 for a rush job of lockpicking) are vast stores of knowledge both damning and valuable and coveted magical items.

West: locked adamantine-and-darkwood box worth 2,500 gp (hardness 20, hp 40, break DC 32, Disable Device DC 40); Tiarise carries the box’s key. Inside the box can be found several documents, including an infernal contract between Tiarise and an individual named Oughorthan. With a successful DC 25 Knowledge (history or planes) check, a character recognizes the name as that of a pit fiend servitor of Mephistopheles who aided House Thrune in defeating the Silver Ravens during the civil war. Other documents in the chest include rough notes for numerous rituals Tiarise aided Barzillai in devising or researching (these rituals are summarized in the nearby sidebar) and notes referencing the Book of the Damned. Finally, four magic scrolls are found here—two scrolls of legend lore, a scroll of planar ally, and a scroll of stone to flesh.
South: racks of books chronicling the history of Kintargo. Approximately 1/3rd of the 45 books have red 'x's on the spines, signifying that they have been redacted and altered to suit Barzillai's new history of Kintargo.

Ritual Notes
The ritual notes found in the vault are not complete enough to allow PCs to recreate their effects, but learning about them should provide closure to earlier mysteries as well as provide clues and foreshadowing for future events.
Beckon Playmates: A ritual to lure tooth fairies into this world that involves the murder of a child.
Devil-Binding: Rituals for the binding of a devil to a living creature in order to create a devilbound creature. These notes indicate Nox and Rivozair have been subjected to this ritual. (Knowledge Planes DC 25: gains darkvision, see in darkness, adds natural armour, resist poison and fire, grants regeneration (good spells, good weapons), soul is damned to hell upon death, gains powers depending on the type of devil they're bound to.
Mephisto Manifestation: A staggeringly complex ritual intended to lure direct intervention of the archdevil Mephistopheles into events on the Material Plane.
Binding the Soul to the Stone: A ritual to transform a person into a guardian undead spirit called a nemhain. Notes further indicate Tiarise has performed this ritual on herself, but that her transformation into an undead guardian will take some time after her death.

ADJUDICATION
When it comes to adjudicating the actions of the characters in this scenario, I recommend that the DM use the "middle path" discussed on page 236-237 of the DMG. That is, you keep a balance between granting automatic success (or failure) and asking for checks. You want the player's skill to matter in a game like this and checks to come into play only when dramatically appropriate.

As well, consider using "progress combined with a setback" (Basic Rules, page 58) wherever possible when adjudicating failure on a check. This means that on a failed check, the character succeeds totally or partially, but it costs something. Because of the timed nature of the scenario, a good cost is simply time. With only five minutes (50 rounds) to do what they need to do in the lift and vault, taxing the players 30 seconds on a failed Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check to pick a lock stings, but doesn't stall the game or force the player to repeat actions. Another example of partial success would be in the traps in the vault. If the player fails an Intelligence (History) check when trying to figure out which of the bloodlines are correct, give them half of the answer (say, the two correct names nearest the spiked door).

Also remember that any character that takes 10 times the normal amount of time needed to resolve a task automatically succeeds (DMG, page 237). So if picking a lock or disabling a trap takes a round with a check, then taking one's time about it, it takes a full minute without a check. This makes the time they have a resource the players can manage. If they're ahead of the game, they can afford to take their time.


Hopefully that all makes sense. If there's something that doesn't, or you want anything clarified, let me know and I'll try to help.


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My group wanted a bank heist style of session during book 3 so I found one online that I could easily adjust to suit Kintargo/the AP better.
The group was quite happy to really screw Thrune over before attacking him directly.


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Latrecis wrote:
So I would encourage you to go full blunt with your players - take the player's guide and turn it up to 11. "If all your character can do is fight, you are going to spend whole sessions doing nothing. Or making it worse/harder for the rest of the group. Your character had better be good at stealth or social or knowledge as well as combat. If you dump stat charisma or get 2 skill points a level, you're going to hurt the team and spend time being bored. It will be like your pc died, only we won't be working to a spot where you can introduce a new one."

"Be sure to make a character that the rest of the group would want around as a co-leader of the Ravens. That means you have to have the skills to not be a hindrance to rest of the group when you're on a stealth mission. If you're only good at fighting then why would they include you in a social mission? They'd find an NPC to join them instead."


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Altaica wrote:
Warped Savant wrote:


As written, no, you can't transfer a spell to someone as an Oracle isn't a prepared caster but I would assum... wait.. you said you didn't want opinions so I won't bother giving mine.

Read the thread title I don't want opinions about if 1lvl oracles get bonus spells. That was just backstory the question was do oracles with IwSA

From the oracle desc "Unlike a cleric, an oracle need not prepare her spells
in advance."

from the core book, "Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same
manner as wizards do, but with a few d ifferences."

Oracles are devine spellcasters so they prepare spells, it just that is the don't do it they still get to cast them.

As I said, as written, oracles are not prepared casters and since they don't prepare spells they can't transfer a prepared spell.

My opinion is that I would suspect any GM would allow you to transfer your oracle spells and it would count as using one spell from the slot of the level of the spell even though they aren't prepared spells.
But you come across as incredibly rude and didn't want opinions, just RAW. So again, I point out that RAW says that IwSA transfers prepared spells, of which an oracle will have none.


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Altaica wrote:
I shocked that you still find it unievivable that a newbie would read it that way.

I think he's more shocked that after what everyone has said you're still trying to say that you're right and therefore everyone on here trying to help you with the rules is wrong.

The "-" on the chart of spells per day means that you don't have access to those spells and therefore you don't get extra spells for that level until you have access to those spells.

If it were to say "0" on the chart then you would get our extra spells for that level. (See Paladin or Ranger classes for an example of a class getting "0" on the chart for spells per day instead of a "-")

Also, Magicdealer laid everything out for you very well RIGHT HERE but you seem to be completely ignoring that.

I'm sorry that this is hard for you to understand, but you are wrong.
You don't get access to level 5 spell slots as a level 1 oracle.


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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Don't egg him on.

Having compassion and understanding for someone isn't egging them on.

He believes that the FAQ doesn't apply because it's for the core book and not the APG. He also believes that the wording specific to oracles regarding cure/inflict spells overrides the general rule that you only have access to spells when the chart of spells per level says you get those spells.
Based on his reading, he gets all cure spells and can cast bonus spells up to level 5 based on his charisma at level 1.

I know this interpretation is wrong, but hopefully someone can find something worded more precisely for oracles to help Altaica create a PFS legal character.
(And the whole thing is made worse by his GM either misinterpreting the rules as well or the GM not paying enough attention to the character sheet.)


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Bonus spells are available to you once you are able to cast spells of that level. A "—" on the chart means you can't can't spells of that level yet. A "0" (see paladins or rangers for examples of this) means that you can't cast spells of that level unless you have bonus spells based on your casting stat.

Do I think me saying this will make a difference? No. You've shown that you're going to ignore what it says in the core rule book as well as the FAQ on the topic. But hey, you do you. Have fun trying to find a GM that doesn't understand the basic rules for spellcasters and will allow you to cast 5th levels spells when you're level 1.

(As a small aside, you realize that with your logic a level 1 wizard with 20 intelligence could cast "Cloudkill" which automatically kills any creatures in the area of the spell that has 3 HD or less, right? Meaning that, with what you think the rules say, a level 1 wizard can kill an entire party with a single casting of a spell if they're all within 40' of each other and they don't get a save against that spell... But you think that makes any sort of sense and is what the rules are actually saying? Yeah, no... that's not how the rules work.)


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Xanatheus wrote:
Both Cavall and Mark the designer agree the effects of a masterpiece end once another Bardic Performance is started. Go back up the page to August 17 for their replies.

Ah, okay... so you want us to tell you why you're wrong using two books but you want to be able to us board responses to why you're right.

Got it. (And Mark even says that there are exceptions to if an effect would end or not.)

So let's just stick with Legato and try to define what it's "effect" is, shall we?
It's effect is to call an extraplanar creature to you. That is what happens when you complete the performance. Everything after that is telling you how you can interact with it and is not part of the effect.
If you want to make it useless you can argue that you can't do any bardic performances after the creature is summoned. Heck, you could even say that the creature doing something for you is an effect of the performance (because your performance and bargaining caused the creature to do something for you) so if you use another performance the creature stops doing what it agreed to do.
You can even argue that the creature can leave right away rather than that you have a minute to say what you want and make your roll.
That's how you're choosing to interpret the description of the ability.
I disagree with how you're reading it and I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind so I'm done trying.


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Xanatheus wrote:
Look at TT the performance lasts for 1 minute the effect lasts for 1 hour. Begin another BP in that hour and TT ends. The same holds true with LPotIB.

Where does it say in Legato that the effect ends if you begin a new Bardic Performance?

Where does it say that the effect of Triple Time ends if you begin a new Bardic Performance?


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Spell Description:
Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain (String)
Your skilled playing can conjure up supernatural servants.
Prerequisite: Perform (string) 11 ranks.
Cost: Feat or 4th-level bard spell known. This fast-paced tune harmonizes with the magical frequencies of another plane, allowing you to draw an extraplanar creature to you and bargain for its service. When you complete this performance, you call one or more outsiders as if using planar ally. Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service. This ability otherwise works like planar ally.
Though the best-known version of this masterpiece refers to an infernal bargain, it can be used to conjure any sort of extraplanar creature (such as an archon, elemental, or protean). Other versions and arrangements of this masterpiece may have different names but otherwise identical effects.
Use: 10 bardic performance rounds.
Action: 10 minutes.
Right, so that doesn't say anything about a minute per level but Cavall is still right about the word "complete".
You perform the Legato, you complete the Legato, an extraplanar creature appears and you can then bargain with it for 1 minute. Since the performance is completed there is nothing to prevent you from starting a new one even though you haven't finished bargaining with the extraplanar creature. Bargaining is not part of the performance. It sticks around for a minute because it was "intrigued by your performance," not because it has to stick around because you're still performing.


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-Price for Clothing (and that it should be new): Yes, have Molly tell them that 'fancy dress' is expected or something and if they want her to come along to help pick things out she can suggest more and more fancy things to get to the required money.

-Price for Gifts: Kind of. Have Molly suggest that anything too extravagant might be taken as a bribe. Appraise, Knowledge Nobility, or suitable Profession (or any other suitable skill) will allow the PC to realize that anything over 500 is too much. Any PC that tries to spend less than 10 deserves to lose the Banquet Point.

-DC for Conversations: No. The conversation starts, they can decide to join in, things get heated/more complex but people would still expect them to participate. The roll shows how well the PC is able to keep up with the conversation and not be offensive.

-DC for Course Etiquette: No. You can describe it as you would like. The players may figure out what kind of check is involved and then they can choose if they want to eat or not.

-Which skills are required: The should be able to make an educated guess as to the kind of skill involved based on the description of the food.

-Ovation Faux Pas: No. If all of the NPCs in the room stand up and clap but your players choose to stubbornly remain seated they deserve to lose the Banquet Points.

-Religion Faux Pas: Molly probably tells them. (But if they make a bad impression on her then she may not...)

I didn't let my players know that there were points being tracked until after. I wanted them to act how they though they should instead of trying to reach a target number.
As for the DCs, it's totally up to you but the above responses are my opinions on them. Think of the banquet as a fight. Do the players know the ACs of the enemies? What about the enemies save bonuses? If the answer is no, then they shouldn't know the DCs of the banquet either.
So long as people aren't trying to make a nuisance of themselves earning enough points is incredibly easy for a 4 person group. Don't stress about it; it's a really fun encounter that the group will be able to easily succeed at without even knowing that you were tracking anything.


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There are different reasons that could lead your players not not fearing death...
Some players, no matter how invested they are in the game and their character, don't worry if their character dies because they enjoy making new ones and trying different things.
Some campaigns are hack and slash so there's no reason to be emotionally invested in the character.
Some players realize it's just a game and therefore don't get attached to the characters, especially if there's a high chance of death.
Some players don't care about the game and therefore don't care as to if their character dies or not.
Some players assume that their death will be cool so they look forward to having a cool death.
There are many others but these are some common reasons.

The way to fix this? Talk to your players and ask THEM why they don't try harder to ensure their characters live through the session. You could even ask them for suggestions to help them want to live.


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I made a slight change to the portals in the Tower of Bone. The book lists a vision and says that passing through the portals the PCs can absorb the flaws within themselves and, in doing this, the PC offers understanding to Thrune.
But the visions listed don't make him sympathetic... they just show him being a horrible person. So instead I had it so that the visions written in the book are what the PCs saw when they inspected the portals but I wrote up a second vision for each of the portals from Barzillai's past that made him do the things they saw in the portals. (Does that make sense? The PCs look at a portal and see Thrune being awful, the step through and see what event/events made Thrune into that awful person that way they/the players actually felt sorry for him.)

After going through half of the Tower of Bones one of my players said "This feels less like killing a tyrant and more like killing a long-abused attack bear preconditioned for psychopathy."
So I'm taking that as a sign that it's worked exactly as I wanted it to! :D


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Kayerloth wrote:

Okay so which is it?

An arrow is neither a weapon (outside of improvised one anyway, it's ammunition for a weapon) and is not typically stored in a scabbard. As ammo it may be drawn as a Free Action. A wand is also clearly neither although it is physical much closer to an arrow than any of the other choices mentioned. That's what's not clear what are you to treat a wand like ammo or weapon. It's probably shorter and more fragile on average than an arrow to my way of thinking (but not too different in size than a bolt). I'd personally be fine calling it a free action to remove a wand from the Efficient Quiver. I think the main advantage as a free action (having thought on it a bit) would be allowing the user to place an item into its appropriate storage space whether that be a Haversack, Bag of Holding, scabbard, or the Quiver prior to withdrawing the current wand of choice. Essentially using a Full Round (2 move actions) to swap wands seems a bit slower than "quickly" but maybe that's just me.

As I've said, a wand is a weapon-like object. (As per page 186 of the Core Rulebook under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon": "Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.")

Since it's a move action to retrieve a wand when it is located somewhere close at hand pulling it out of an efficient quiver is a move action. Again, there is nothing in the write-up for the efficient quiver that would change what kind of action it is to take something out of it.

An arrow is ammunition for a bow and therefore can be drawn as a free action. (Page 187 of the Core Rulebook, still under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon": "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action." Being able to pull an arrow out of an efficient quiver as a free action has nothing to do with the item other than the fact that it puts the arrow close at hand.

Why is it unclear to you as to if a wand counts as a weapon-like object or as ammunition? The book very plainly says that it's a weapon-like object, as I've said a few times in this thread.

What you would allow is fine; that's your ruling. But it's not supported by the rules in the books.

(And for the record, as per the rules, pulling a wand out of a regular quiver would be a move action. Using an efficient quiver wouldn't change it to a free action as, again, nothing in the write-up for the efficient quiver says it changes what the action is to draw something from it.)


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There's nothing saying that drawing anything (arrows included) from the quiver are a free action. The closest it says is: "Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
Looking at the Combat rules, drawing a weapon is a move action (or can be done as part of a move action if you BAB is +1 or higher). This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
And: "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action."

So if a wand is a "weapon-like object" and drawing something from the efficient quiver is the same as drawing a normal something from somewhere close at hand, a wand would still be a "weapon-like object" and would therefore be a move action to draw it, just like pulling a bow, spear, or javelin from the efficient quiver would be.


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For the changes to Hargulka's Monster Kingdom I'd highly suggest looking at the source that Owlcat used. Dudemeister's Changes to RRR
As for the Nomen Heights, although it doesn't include the barbarians, his changes to the centaurs are definitely worth a look (even if for nothing other than better ideas for the quests rather than how they're presented in the book).


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Having a son wouldn't be enough because he didn't have a claim to the Stolen Lands and after he married the duchess it would depend on how the laws of the kingdom worked as to if the power was passed on to the husband if the duchess were to die. Sometimes the power goes to the closest blood relative rather than the person married into power.
So if the kingdom is set up that way, the grandchild of Nyrissa could inherit the land as they're blood of the duchess.
Personally, I really like the idea of this working but I'd be worried that the players may feel like the campaign lacks an ending. (But I have no idea... it might be perfect to the players that it ends this way).

Is there a chance to have it so that Choral the Conqueror is trapped in Thousandbreaths? (Eg: I had him bottled up; maybe you've done the same and he could escape?) You could set up so that Nyrissa can be reunited with Briar and doesn't become an evil, all-powerful thing. She's welcome into the kingdom as a protector of the land, but due to her not being in Thousandbreaths, Choral has escaped and taken over and is now trying to expand his army out into the players kingdom?


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They're magical pumps.
They make it so that the entire area believes it's just above sea level.
Because Magic.


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27: "My character sits down with everyone at the inn, pulls out a bag of dice and hands each character a piece of parchment. 'okay,' she says, 'let's play a game where we pretend to be other people." and go on to create an RPG with an RPG.


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My players were reminiscing about Kingmaker the other day (due to them playing through the CRPG right now and having all finished Varnhold Vanishing in it). All of them were saddened by the fact that the centaurs weren't in the game because this book is one of the most memorable ones for them due to the inclusion of the centaurs. They were talking about how much more sense it made to get the roc egg and the manticore quills for the centaurs rather than why it's done in the CRPG, and how much fun they had with the race to gain the respect of the centaur tribe.

Nearly two years on, and some of the changes you made, Dudemeister, are the most memorable things to my group.
I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for Kingmaker and for how helpful and patient you were in talking me through different parts of it.


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Combat maneuvers.
Either you're amazing at them and only someone designed to be good against them has a chance to defend against them or you suck at them just like everyone else.

Alignment.
But mostly because people think "Lawful Good = Lawful Stupid" and evil means you're going to kill anyone you don't like without any provocation.


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The only concern I would have is that the players would focus on it too much.
But there's really no spoiler that I can think of and it makes it matter more.

I'd try to get it so that it felt like the player's idea though... maybe ask each of them of their best childhood memory or favourite thing they owned as a kid. ("What's was the thing you remember most as a child? Like, describe your best friend, did you imagine your teddy bear fighting dragons or do you remember your parents reading you a book? Or maybe it was something bad? Anything like that...") It might work in your favour or you might have to force it a little more... maybe the group finds a copy in the mite cave and you describe it to someone as a book they remember their parents reading to them as a child.
If any do bite and have a favourite book as a kid don't pull it out and hand it to them right away, but bring it the following session. And, if possible, bring something for everyone that they mentioned so that the book doesn't feel SUPER important.

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