Cairn Wight

Volkard Abendroth's page

1,710 posts. Alias of Michael Sumrall.


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David knott 242 wrote:

So what sort of tables does he use? I was assuming that he used the tables in Inner Sea Races and you got an unlikely roll.

If he is using a radically different table that makes humanoid results unlikely, that might alter the advice I gave earlier.

The second table here

This is also the table my group uses, and we had our gnome barbarian reincarnate as a wyvaran.


Build a monk, brawler, or unarmed focused fighter.

All three are fine fighting naked in an anti-magic zone.

Alternately, there is the Phantom Blade Spiritualist. It's not like you can take their weapon away from them and they can always choose to summon a breastplate made of ice (as long as they took the spell). Blade-in-Mind even lets them fight unarmed, with their unarmed strikes counting as magic.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
All of the strikes can be either with a monk weapon or not, though it is more beneficial to make them all with a two-handed monk weapon so as to get a 1.5 X Str bonus instead of the 1 X Str bonus to damage on each attack.
A monk flurrying always gets 1xStr, regardless of what monk weapon they're using, never 0.5 or 1.5.

Unless they take Dragon Ferocity. Then they get 2 X STR on their first attack and 1.5 X STR on the rest of their attacks.


Claxon wrote:

Talk with your GM is really going to be the best way.

To what end are you trying to beat special senses? Is this for exploring dungeons? Or are you trying to use stealth in combat for sneak attack?

If it's the second one, you're better off finding not stealth based methods of getting sneak attack.

If it's the first, there are options that are better than being undetected, like not being in the room (divination), or being a (regular sized) spider that doesn't arouse suspicion.

Special senses will often pick up magic and magical sensory spells, or block divination from working.

A rogue, not relying on magic, can bypass just about everything. He can do so all day long, and it does not require any consumable resources.


Boots of the Soft Step cost 1,000gp and block Tremorsense.

Dampen Presence blocks Blindsight and Blindsense

The rogue talent Hidden Mind grants Nondetection


Tenser's Floating Disk

Have your familiar ride around on it and hand you items.

Bonus points if you take the feat Disk Rider and wear silver.


VoodistMonk wrote:

It absolutely does not grant you a virtual free hand.

It just allows you to keep the Shield Bonus to your AC when you are using your buckler hand to TWF or wield a two-handed weapon or casting spells.

It also allows monks to use bucklers.

It allows monks to use bucklers and the magus to use spell combat with a buckler equipped.

It would not, for example, allow a magus to hold a second weapon or TWF and still use spell combat.


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I always start my campaigns at level 1.

I find that events transpiring at that level can shape how a character acts and is viewed by the other players for the entire campaign.


I have found that a well-build Bladebound Kensai can be very difficult to take down once past the lower levels.

[list]

  • All good saves (Dex is a primary stat).
  • Very high AC - stupid high if it wanted. I typically aim for level +25, but you can go higher.
  • High AC includes touch.
  • Diviner level Initiative, or higher, with all the same bonuses
  • Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Non-Detection, Heroism all are options.
  • Can still be high DPR while having high AC
  • Two stats for initiative, damage, and AC; allows more room for growth
  • Bladebound allows more resources used for AC/Stats


  • PCScipio wrote:
    Mirror Image is very helpful (but some high level enemies aren't fooled).

    Most classes that have Mirror Image can also access Non-Detection.

    With a DC 15+CL on the caster level check, Non-Dectection can be difficult to overcome reliably.


    Leostarnfire wrote:
    On top of that my 6ft human was reincarnated as a gnome which lost me another feat due to a stat change.

    Mental Stats don't change when you reincarnate. Neither do feats or skills.


    The only way I've found to really resolve the argument is Hide in Plain Sight + Dampen Presence.


    Fly + Scorching Ray

    The paladin is unlikely to have a high touch AC and there is no save.

    Alternately, Spectral Hand and Shocking Grasp.

    Either way, you are going to need all available spells; the paladin will be healing each round.


    David knott 242 wrote:
    There is also the Dervish Dance feat for scimitar wielding worshipers of Sarenrae. It has one fewer prerequisite feats than the "Grace" feats but cannot be taken before 2nd level.

    Unless you take one of several archetypes that grant the feat at 1st level.


    Aduaitam wrote:
    By that logic, none of the P-HH types can use *any* of the evolutions with prereqs. Seriously??

    It's not just the P-HH types.

    As far as I can tell, none of the types released after Unchained can use evolutions that require a specific type.


    Derklord wrote:
    Isn't that a Wizard archetype?

    The wizard is merely theorycrafting.

    The fighter can actually build it.


    Bite, claws, gore, hooves, wing bashes, stings, tentacles, etc. are all natural attacks.


    Ratfolk TWF Rogue:
    Emmentaller
    Ratfolk unchained rogue (swashbuckler) 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 135, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 231, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
    N Small humanoid (ratfolk)
    Init +6; Senses low-light vision; Perception +13 (+17 to hear conversation or find concealed object)
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 size)
    hp 67 (8d8+24)
    Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +6; +2 morale bonus vs. fear, +2 vs. disease
    Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge; Resist daring
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 0 ft.
    Melee +1 dual-balanced mithral kukri +14/+9 (1d3+7/18-20) or
    . . +1 dual-balanced mithral kukri +14/+9 (1d3+4/18-20)
    Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +4d6, swarming
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 8, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
    Base Atk +6; CMB +4; CMD 21
    Feats Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Outflank[APG], Precise Strike[APG], Scurrying Swarmer, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (kukri)
    Skills Acrobatics +13, Appraise +6, Bluff +10, Climb +1, Disable Device +9, Disguise +7, Escape Artist +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Perception +13 (+17 to hear conversation or find concealed object), Sense Motive +13, Stealth +17, Swim -1; Racial Modifiers +2 Stealth
    Languages Aklo, Common, Undercommon
    SQ cleanliness, debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, rogue talents (bonus feat, canny observer[APG], combat trick, swarming attack), skulk[ARG], surface sprinter
    Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +1 dual-balanced mithral kukri, +1 dual-balanced mithral kukri, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1, 4,884 gp
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Canny Observer (Ex) +4 Perception to overhear conversations or find concealed or secret objects.
    Cleanliness +2 vs. disease, exceeding disease save by 5 counts as 2 cons. saves,
    Daring +2 (Ex) +2 save vs. fear.
    Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
    Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
    Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
    Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >= 12) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 12+.
    Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
    Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
    Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
    Scurrying Swarmer Use swarming trait to enter square of willing ally, ally treated as having same teamwork feats.
    Skulk -5 on Stealth to hide from creatures you have distracted with Bluff (instead of -10)
    Sneak Attack (Unchained) +4d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
    Surface Sprinter Gain low-light vision and 30 ft. base speed.
    Swarming (Ex) Can share a square with another with swarming, if both att the same foe, he is flanked.
    Swarming Attack (Ex) While using swarming racial trait, gain dmg bonus = ally's sneak atk dice.

    Treats allies as having the swarming racial trait at 3rd level.

    Counts as flanking when occupying the same space as an ally, and counts the character he shares a space with as having the same teamwork feats.

    He is nearly always flanking, gets +4 attack from outflank, gets an extra d6 of sneak attack from precise, gets +3 static damage/attack from swarming attack.

    Standard attack full attack at 8th level, as long as the group has another melee character.

    +18/+18?+13/+13 (1d3+10/18-20/x2) + 5d6 / (1d3+7/18-20/x2) + 5d6


    Scott Wilhelm wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    tresson wrote:
    I've been running a natural attack based Half-Orc War Priest of Gozreh that been pretty fun. You can set your natural attack as your sacred weapon but you do need to get the weapon focus feat for each type of natural attack past the first.

    Fighters can do the same thing with focused weapon + they get weapon specialization and weapon training.

    Just pick up martial versatility so your weapon specific feats apply to all natural weapons.

    That could work. Martial Versatility is a Human Feat, though. That means you have to find other ways to get your Natural Attacks. Depending on the character build, it might be better to go with Martial Versatility, or it might be better to go with some other race like Tengu that starts off with lots of Natural Attacks.

    I got Martial Versatility mixed up with Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist.


    Melee Wizard: unbuffed:
    Suadurix CR 7
    XP 3,200
    Male human (Garundi) transmuter 8
    LE Medium humanoid (human)
    Init +2; Senses Perception +2
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex)
    hp 62 (8d6+32)
    Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +9
    DR 1/bludgeoning
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 30 ft.
    Melee +1 living steel quarterstaff +10 (1d6+8)
    Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +11)
    . . At will—change shape (beast shape ii or elemental body i, 8 rounds/day)
    . . 6/day—telekinetic fist (1d4+4 bludgeoning)
    Transmuter (Blood Mage) Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +11)
    . . 4th—dimension door, monstrous physique II[UM], stoneskin
    . . 3rd—haste, heroism, ice spears (DC 16), monstrous physique I[UM], sleet storm
    . . 2nd—alter self, blade tutor's spirit (2), cat's grace, invisibility
    . . 1st—burning disarm (DC 14), long arm[ACG], mage armor, obscuring mist, shield (2)
    . . 0 (at will)—detect magic, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation
    . . Opposition Schools Evocation, Necromancy
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
    Base Atk +4; CMB +9; CMD 22
    Feats Arcane Strike, Extend Spell, Power Attack, Scale And Skin, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
    Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +8, Climb +11, Diplomacy +8, Fly +6, Knowledge (local) +12, Linguistics +7, Perception +2, Spellcraft +14, Survival +1, Swim +6
    Languages Common, Osiriani, Shoanti, Sphinx, Tien, Vudrani
    SQ blood fuel, clot blood, living steel, physical enhancement (+2)
    Combat Gear potion of barkskin +2, potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of jump, potion of pass without trace; Other Gear +1 living steel quarterstaff, amulet of mighty fists +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of twisted intellect +2, ring of protection +1, spell component pouch, wizard starting spellbook, 25 gp
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    Blood Fuel (6/day) (Su) Deal 1d4 damage to self to gain free+1 metamagic.
    Change Shape (beast shape ii or elemental body i, 8 rounds/day) (Sp) Use beast shape II or elemental body I as a Spell-Like ability.
    Clot Blood (1 points) (Ex) Gain DR 1/bludgeoning and reduce any bleed damage taken by 1.
    Damage Reduction (1/bludgeoning) You have Damage Reduction against all except Bludgeoning attacks.
    Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
    Extend Spell Spell duration lasts twice as normal. +1 Level.
    Living Steel Some trees suck up potent minerals through their roots the same way others draw water from the ground. Though these trees blunt saws and axes used to hew them and shrug off fire, they eventually succumb to time or the elements. When properly harveste
    Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
    Physical Enhancement +2 (Strength) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
    Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
    Scale and Skin When transmutation spell affects you, gain +1 or +2 to natural armor.
    Telekinetic Fist (1d4+4 bludgeoning, 6/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
    Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.

    Melee Wizard: basic buffs:
    Suadurix CR 7
    XP 3,200
    Male human (Garundi) transmuter 8
    LE Medium humanoid (human)
    Init +2; Senses scent; Perception +4
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +3 deflection, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +4 shield)
    hp 62 (8d6+32)
    Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +11
    DR 1/bludgeoning
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
    Melee +1 living steel quarterstaff +13 (1d6+18) or
    . . bite +17 (2d6+15), 4 claws +17 (1d8+15), sting +17 (1d6+15)
    Special Attacks pounce
    Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +11)
    . . At will—change shape (beast shape ii or elemental body i, 8 rounds/day)
    . . 6/day—telekinetic fist (1d4+4 bludgeoning)
    Transmuter (Blood Mage) Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +11)
    . . 4th—dimension door, monstrous physique II[UM], stoneskin
    . . 3rd—haste, heroism, ice spears (DC 16), monstrous physique I[UM], sleet storm
    . . 2nd—alter self, blade tutor's spirit (2), cat's grace, invisibility
    . . 1st—burning disarm (DC 14), long arm[ACG], mage armor, obscuring mist, shield (2)
    . . 0 (at will)—detect magic, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation
    . . Opposition Schools Evocation, Necromancy
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
    Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 25
    Feats Arcane Strike, Extend Spell, Power Attack, Scale And Skin, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
    Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +5, Bluff +10, Climb +14, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +2, Escape Artist +4, Fly +8, Heal +2, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (local) +14, Linguistics +9, Perception +4, Ride +4, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +16, Stealth +4, Survival +3, Swim +9
    Languages Common, Osiriani, Shoanti, Sphinx, Tien, Vudrani
    SQ blood fuel, clot blood, physical enhancement (+2)
    Combat Gear potion of barkskin +2, potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of jump, potion of pass without trace; Other Gear +1 living steel quarterstaff, amulet of mighty fists +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of twisted intellect +2, ring of protection +1, spell component pouch, wizard starting spellbook, 25 gp
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    Blood Fuel (6/day) (Su) Deal 1d4 damage to self to gain free+1 metamagic.
    Change Shape (beast shape ii or elemental body i, 8 rounds/day) (Sp) Use beast shape II or elemental body I as a Spell-Like ability.
    Clot Blood (1 points) (Ex) Gain DR 1/bludgeoning and reduce any bleed damage taken by 1.
    Damage Reduction (1/bludgeoning) You have Damage Reduction against all except Bludgeoning attacks.
    Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
    Extend Spell Spell duration lasts twice as normal. +1 Level.
    Fly (50 feet, Average) You can fly!
    Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
    Physical Enhancement +2 (Strength) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
    Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
    Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
    Scale and Skin When transmutation spell affects you, gain +1 or +2 to natural armor.
    Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ ft. by sense of smell.
    Telekinetic Fist (1d4+4 bludgeoning, 6/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
    Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.

    Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
    Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


    Any attack that requires an attack roll may destroy an image. Touch spells that destroy an image are discharged.

    Nothing in the rules requires the attack to be damaging.


    If you are doing TWF with a partner for teamwork feats, look at using kukri instead of daggers.

    Outflank and Paired Opportunist both trigger off critical hits, so you want weapons with a higher crit rate.


    Witches gain spells when they level and from scrolls.

    The Unlettered Arcanist would do the same.


    Ryan Freire wrote:
    First off..name them and source the books.

    A few examples off the top of my head. There are others, but you'll have to find them yourself.

    Combat Scabbard, Sharpened: an improvised melee weapon. It is specifically named on the melee weapon list, but does not meet the following condition

    Weapons wrote:
    Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

    If you allow that improvised weapons are effective in melee, all weapons are melee weapons. Bows, crossbows, etc. can all be used as improvised melee weapons by any character without any special rules or feats. If you rule it is not effective in melee (due to improvised and related penalties, it can be thrown without any additional penalties, and ranged weapons are not defined as being effective.

    Shield, Throwing: it is a mod that applies to already existing shields. The resulting weapon appears on both the melee and ranged weapon tables.

    Chakram, Common: a ranged weapon with explicit rules for melee usage. There is a -1 penalty, compared to the -4 of a combat scabbard.

    Quote:
    Second off, every weapon is placed in either melee, or ranged sections on the tables. If they're in the melee section, they can be enchanted as melee weapons, regardless if they can be used as thrown weapons or not. If they're in the ranged section, they are enchanted as ranged weapons...regardless if special rules allow them to be used in melee or not.

    Except for the weapons that appear on both, or that appear on the table for one, but are explicitly usable as the other. Or weapons that don't fall within the definitions of either category.

    All this leaves aside characters, feats and weapon properties that change how a weapon is used.

    The best guidance on this comes from the Greater Transformative weapon property:

    Greater Transformative wrote:
    However, abilities prohibited by its current shape do not function. For example, a keen greater transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. A double weapon that loses the double quality cannot use the abilities on one of its ends (wielder’s choice), whereas a non-double weapon that gains the double quality applies all its abilities to only one end. When unattended for 1 day, the weapon reverts to its true shape

    While the rules for Greater Transformative are only explicitly spells out for weapons with this property they are, in essence, how I have always interpreted the rules for weapon properties. They are simply being restated in a more explicit manner for a weapon that freely changes classification.

    Ryan Freire wrote:
    Ranged weapons that can be used in melee at a penalty are not automatically melee weapons, as the penalty represents them not being effective in melee.

    There are weapons on the melee table that cannot be used in melee without a penalty and anything can be thrown. Does that make them ranged weapons?

    There are ranged weapons that do not take penalties in melee. Does that mean they cannot use ranged weapon properties, but instead use melee properties at range?

    Throwing Shields use entries on both melee and ranged weapon tables. Can you enchant them with both melee and ranged properties and have both sets of properties function in both ranged and melee?

    Penalty, or lack thereof, is not a factor for determining is something is a ranged weapon. Only the fact that is it thrown and not effective in melee.

    Quixote wrote:


    Text contained within Ultimate Combat does not trump the original core rulebook, so I feel like it's an iffy example at best.

    Most recent trumps older.

    The game has changed, and many core rules have been updated, or completely replaced, by more recent books.

    Ultimate Intrigue and Unchained are the two biggest examples, but others abound.


    Syries wrote:

    If fire resistance and immunity applies to the healing received then so does fire vulnerability. If that's the stance you want to take go for it, but does it really make sense for a frost giant to get an extra 50% healing because of fire?

    It makes more sense to me that this healing is no longer damage, it is just straight, untyped healing similar to that from life link.

    Nothing in the bloodline ability changes the [Fire].

    Since the type is not changed, anything that would apply to the type continues to apply. Modifiers to damage, Immunity, resistance, vulnerability. Everything continues to be applied in the normal manner.

    It also means the gnome pyromaniac cross-blooded with red dragon gets his bonuses to damage, since it is fire damage, not untyped.


    Last game a character got possessed. The barbarian full-attacked her for subdual damage.

    The rest of the party hit her for lethal damage.


    EldonGuyre wrote:

    One big advantage the THF has is that his one attack does a lot more damage than one attack with a one handed weapon. that's why pounce is so valuable - every time you have to move to engage (which can be multiple times in a combat) it really matters.

    DR also changes the equation - often by quite a lot.

    All that said, play what you want. One of the builds I really like is a dwarf Bbn. with twin waraxes...though I saw a PC try it at first level, and rarely hit anything...died at fourth.

    Look into dual balanced weapons + Hand's Autonomy.

    Hand's Autonomy is -2 to TWF penalties, to a minimum of -1.

    Dual Balanced Weapons is a non-magical weapon property that costs 2,000 per weapon, but reduces the TWF penalty by -1

    The prereq for Hand's Autonomy is Possessed Hand, which give +1 attk and dmg to one weapon.

    You are effectively -0 to-hit/+1 dmg on one weapon and -1 to-hit on the second weapon.

    Hand's Autonomy also has a bunch of situational abilities, like the ability to act while the character is unconscious or helpless. E.g. attack, feed you healing potions, wake you up etc.


    Moonheart wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Moonheart wrote:

    Yes, the list on pfsrd is very incomplete.

    That's sad because the Phantom Blade get some truly interesting touch spells like Plane Shift, Harm and Bestow Curse.

    I usualy use D20pfsrd as a reference instead.

    That is what I was referring to.

    AoN has it listed correctly, but looking up spells there is not quite as easy.

    It is referenced in d200fsrd. Here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spiritualist/#TOC-5t h-Level-Spiritualist-Spells-Paizo-

    They omitted spiritualist (and the other occult classes) here: Plane Shift


    Ryan Freire wrote:
    Except daggers are in the melee weapon section of the book, not the ranged weapon section. Its convenient how they divide that up in the supplements and books

    None of this is about daggers, it is about underlying mechanics.

    I could name a dozen edge cases were weapons are on the melee weapon tables yet count as improvised weapons in melee (and thus inefficient in melee, as defined for melee weapons, but not mirrored by ranged weapon definitions), by being listed on the ranged weapon tables while having explicit usage in melee, or by being listed on both melee and ranged tables.


    GM PDK wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    It is [...]
    ...not acceptable in PFS play if you happen to go to GenCon this weekend.

    Nobody has shown me anything that disproves my interpretation,

    But if I were running at Gencon and you tried to get a ranged property to work in melee or a melee property to work at range the onus of being forced to defend that interpretation with RAW, not feelings, would be on you.

    bbangerter wrote:

    An additional question for you. Do you believe the following feats can or cannot be used with a thrown dagger?

    Snapshot, PBS, Rapid Shot, Clustered Shot, Deflect Arrows, Ranged Feint/Trip/Disarm, and so forth for combat feats that affect ranged weapons.

    I have no issue with any of those working with any weapon that is thrown.


    Moonheart wrote:

    Yes, the list on pfsrd is very incomplete.

    That's sad because the Phantom Blade get some truly interesting touch spells like Plane Shift, Harm and Bestow Curse.

    I usualy use D20pfsrd as a reference instead.

    That is what I was referring to.

    AoN has it listed correctly, but looking up spells there is not quite as easy.


    Ryan Freire wrote:
    Squiggit wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.
    You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.
    It isn't, its just jerkin off linguistically and deliberate misinterpretation of the text.

    It is reading the text and looking at the underlying mechanics, rather than trying to come up with some convoluted series of interpretations.

    What people are trying to push without understanding the underlying mechanics requires a long series of inconsistent interpretations that follow no easily defined logic except that they feel it is the "right" way to play the game.

    Without being consistent on the underlying mechanics, the entire thing is just a house of cards. It becomes simple to find loopholes and exceptions that don't fit.

    When the rules are interpreted in a manner that provides consistent underlying mechanics, none of that happens. Every edge case has a simple answer; the one that is consistent with the underlying mechanics. If something provides a specific exception, that is fine. The exception is specific and defined.


    Squiggit wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.
    You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.

    There is nothing arbitrary.

    Melee properties only work in melee, ranged properties only work when making ranged attacks.

    Properties that require specific damage types only work when the required damage type is dealt.

    Properties that require the user to meet a specific condition only work when the condition is met.

    It is very straight forward, very easy to predict, and does not have corner cases, or at least none that I can recall.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Kasoh wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Kasoh wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Agile wrote:
    Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
    Emphasis mine.
    I suppose then it would require the person doing the enchantment to have the necessary feats to make it usable with Weapon Finesse or such person to aid in the creation of the magic item, which isn't an unreasonable requirement. Because the weapon isn't, unless you are such a person.

    Most casters don't have Weapon Finesse and cannot use the Agile property on any weapon.

    Fortunately, there is no requirement for any weapon property to be usable by the person creating the weapon.

    True, but Agile can only be put on weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse. If the person making the weapon doesn't have slashing grace or whatever, the weapon they are enchanting can't be used with weapon finesse and is thus ineligible for the enchantment.

    I was thinking of the scenario of creating an agile longsword or something, not just making a regular agile weapon.

    The weapon can be used with weapon finesse, just not by that character.

    Just as a medium sized caster cannot use weapon finesse with a small or large weapon, even if they have the Weapon Finesse feat.

    Alternately, any one-handed weapon that has an effortless lace applied may be used by anyone with weapon finesse (assuming appropriate size).

    Effortless Lace wrote:
    If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.

    Emphasis mine.

    The Effortless Lace has several ways it can be destroyed, none of them which remove the Agile property, which would remain on the weapon.

    All you accomplish by arguing the person enchanting the weapon must be able to use it with Weapon Finesse is restrict casters to enchanting weapons of their own size category. No more gnomes enchanting human weapons, no more humans enchanting halfling weapons, etc.


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    Kasoh wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Agile wrote:
    Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
    Emphasis mine.
    I suppose then it would require the person doing the enchantment to have the necessary feats to make it usable with Weapon Finesse or such person to aid in the creation of the magic item, which isn't an unreasonable requirement. Because the weapon isn't, unless you are such a person.

    Most casters don't have Weapon Finesse and cannot use the Agile property on any weapon.

    Fortunately, there is no requirement for any weapon property to be usable by the person creating the weapon.


    Moonheart wrote:
    baggageboy wrote:
    If you'd like to discuss the Phantom Blade more I'd love to but that's a overview. Here's a link to a Phantom Blade specific guide. I don't agree with everything in it, but it does do a decent job of looking at the class.

    Well, as the author of this guide, if you'd like to share the controversial points, I'll be glad to hear them.

    Phantom Blade is a bit hard to compare in terms of efficiency with Magus, mainly, as I said in the guide, because the spell list is so vastly different that you end to have a different role in party than a Magus has.

    I've played the Phantom Blade as a tank, for exemple, and I was fully satisfied of it.
    I remember even my DM saying once that he should perhaps remove some of my spells because I was litteraly soloing some encounters without the help of my teamates.

    Well... at the same time, after I defeated a boss in a single round by combining Ethereal Weapon, Spell Strike and Plane Shift... I could understand him.

    Interesting: while the spell is on the spiritualist spell list, it is not listed as a spiritualist spell on the pfsrd.


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    Piccolo wrote:
    I disagree. That's not likely to be something that spellpouches would contain. You are making assumptions that aren't in evidence. Do you actually believe some devil somewhere is sitting still for casters to milk them dry of its blood?
    Spell Component Pouch wrote:
    A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

    You can feel free to houserule in your games, but RAW a spell component pouch includes all spell components without a specified cost.


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    McDaygo wrote:

    So what is everyone’s opinion on this? Like to be I get annoyed when people only build towards combat and have zero RP value or power game to the point where they break the game if played by RAW.

    Ways I’ve stopped it is by throwing a “bigger fish” at them to remind them they are not demi gods walking around.

    Without banning from your table how do some of you keep a game breaker in check.

    Problems that are not solvable in combat.

    And don't direct all non-combat problems to the one character that decides to build a bardic social god/skill monkey. Specifically address problems and dilemmas to a character and have them solve it.


    Piccolo wrote:
    willuwontu wrote:

    A wand of infernal healing (should) only be 750gp, and restores 500 hp in total. This results in a cost of 1.5gp per hp.

    By contrast, a regular wand of CLW costs 750gp, and heals 275 hp on average, or 450 hp at most if all dice are rolled maximum. This in a cost of 2.72gp per hp on average or 1.66gp per hp at maximum.

    A wand of infernal healing is the cheapest way to restore HP.

    I'm unsure what this amped stick you are talking about is, or what the diamond is for. Please explain those.

    Nope. You forget that you have to use either a drop of infernal blood, or unholy water. Since that demonic/devlish blood is gonna be REALLY hard to come by, the unholy water costs 25gp a pop. That means the wand costs 750+1250gp, aka 2000gp for 50 copies in a fully charged wand.

    Oh, and I am using exact average hp restoration rolls to estimate value.

    As a costless spell component, every spell component pouch comes with an unlimited supply of devil's blood.


    GM PDK wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Agile would only function if the character using the weapon can use it with Weapon Finesse. Just as Keen only functions in melee and Designating only functions when making a ranged attack.
    The wizard putting an enchantment on a sword can only put the enchantments designed for that sword.

    No weapon has the finesse quality, because it does not exist.

    Even weapons that specifically state they work with Weapon Finesse modify the Weapon Finesse feat, they don't have a separate weapon quality.

    Since we allow that the Weapon Finesse feat can have weapons other than the original set added to it (as with anything else in the game) why would you think other feats and abilities cannot also add to Weapon Finesse?

    The Agile property requirement is "usable with Weapon Finesse." At the time (Core Rules) that was a limited subset of weapons. The game has grown since then. There are now abilities that render all melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse, which meets the requirements of the Agile property.

    Agile wrote:
    Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

    Emphasis mine.


    baggageboy wrote:

    By that logic you can make a keen club, but the keen property would only function when using it to do piercing or slashing damage via some ability such as weapon versatility.

    Fundementally most people fall into one of two groups, properties are inherent to the weapons themselves group, or properties are all about use. Both have good examples of why in particular cases their group's viewpoint is right. However the rules are written in a conversational tone and don't directly address this issue in a consistent manner.

    So, check with your GM, or pick a style that isn't controversial if you are doing PFS.

    Weapon Qualities

    Finesse is not a weapon quality. It is derived solely from feats and abilities. Things possessed by the weapon user, not the weapon.

    As for your example with the club: it is no different than putting keen on Claw Blades (B or S) and then using them to deal Blunt damage.

    By my interpretation, keen does not work when used to deliver Blunt damage, regardless of the weapon. By your interpretation, you can deal keen Blunt damage with Claw Blades, because the weapon has the property and the property always works.

    In argument against the club: damage types are a defined weapon classification.


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    Melkiador wrote:
    It’s like saying you can put agile on a long sword because you can use finesse with it if you take slashing grace. But the weapon doesn’t care about how it could be used, but about what it is. And the dagger is a melee weapon. So no designating.

    A position I have long held.

    There is no weapon property for finesse. There is a baseline feat, followed by an entire series of feats and abilities, and more recent weapons that modify the baseline.

    Weapon Finesse is a property of the weapon wielder, not the weapon.

    The Agile property states:

    Agile wrote:
    Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

    What Agile does not state is that it is usable only on weapons with the finesse property, because the property does not exist. No melee weapon uses DEX-to-hit by default.

    A long sword is usable with Weapon Finesse. Just not by every character.

    Agile would only function if the character using the weapon can use it with Weapon Finesse. Just as Keen only functions in melee and Designating only functions when making a ranged attack.


    JDLPF wrote:


    Here's the attack sequences:

    Greatsword: +14/+7 (2d6+24)
    Shortsword: +9/+4/+4/-1 (1d6+4)

    Your math is a little messed up, even assuming you used Barbarian for both instead of unchained barbarian (Which is better for THF worse for TWF). (I'm going to assume human)

    Greatsword: +6 BAB +6(+9) STR Bonus -2/+6 from PA, +1 WF, +1 MW

    +14/+7 (2d6+15)

    .8(22.5) + .8(.1)(22.5) = 19.8
    .35(22.5) + .35(.1)(22.5) = 8.6625

    DPR = 28.4625
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Shortsword: (18 STR, 17 DEX) +6 BAB +4 STR, -2/+4/+2 PA, +1 MW, +2 moral, -2 TWF

    +9/+9/+4/+4 (1d6+10)/(1d6+8)

    .55(13.5) + .55(.1)(13.5) = 8.1675
    .3(11.5) + .55(.1)(11.5) = 3.8

    DPR = 23.935
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    At 6th level, the THF does deal ~19% higher DPR.

    The equations change as level increases. There are more feats and properties available to the TWF to increase DPR, or that grant static bonuses the TWF can apply more often. Weapon focus, for example, is obviously an option at 7th level. But there are plenty of other options:

    • Two-Weapon Rend (1d10 + x1.5 str + other modifiers)
    • Possessed Hand / Hand's Autonomy (+1 to-hit & damage / reduce TWF penalty
    • Martial Focus (+1 Damage)
    • Dual Balanced Weapons (-1 TWF penalty)
    • Thunder & Fang (TWF with an Earthbreaker + Klar)
    • Two-Weapon Grace - Slashing Grace with two weapons (DEX to damage)

    Several things come to mind here.

    • Thunder & Fang is barbarian themed.
    • Dual Balanced Weapons + Haunted Hand = -1 TWF penalty while using a 1-handed weapon in your off hand. You can use much better weapons than short swords
    • Two Weapon Grace = no more splitting stats. Go pure DEX build

    You don't build a TWF barbarian the same way you build a THF barbarian, and it takes more feats to get going full steam than a THF character (which are always the strongest builds at low level). Once the TWF character gets going, however, it has a lot more room for growth and eventually overtakes the THF in both damage and defense.

    Claxon wrote:
    Fighter can also do well with Advanced Weapon training options allowing you double your weapon training damage with Trained Grace and can grab effortless dual wield to treat one-hand weapons as light (though kukris work just fine, weapon damage dice don't mean much in Pathfinder)

    At higher level the fighter takes Focused Weapon and his kukri start dealing much higher base damage.


    Claxon wrote:

    The biggest problem you have with TWF is that in general it's going to be worse unless you:

    1) Have pounce, which barbarians can get but not until level 10. This locks you into Beast Totem
    2) TWF doesn't benefit as much from a high strength score, and takes a lot of feats/abilities to get the same total bonus in terms of damage as two handing with power attack does.

    There are ways to build TWF that work well, but Barbarian just isn't the chassis for it, IMO.

    Double Slice puts a TWF character into a position to get full STR on both weapons. TWF also gets more benefit from the unchained barbarian's rage power as the static moral bonus to damage is applied equally to all attacks.

    Power attack breaks even. Between main hand and off-hand you get the same total damage damage.

    Barbarian might not be the most common choice for TWF, but it can work.


    Anguish wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Not at all. This is not about expanded threat ranges. This is about underlying mechanics and unintended interactions.

    The lack of wording preventing a +1 keen dagger from threatening on a rolled 18 does not imply that said threatening is unintended.

    Untangling my tortured sentence, I would suggest that the fact the rules indicate a dagger qualifies for keen and don't indicate that enchantment is disabled when thrown means the developers fifteen years ago intended it to work.

    Unless there's a developer FAQ or errata in the massive time period since 3.0 was designed, there's either a} indication of intent or b} no lurking game-breaking unintended interaction to fear. Either way, RAW is fine.

    RAI in this case is just an attempt at justification, without evidence, based on personal feelings.

    The keen property requires melee and P or S damage.

    You either rule weapon properties care only about the option to use the weapon in the required manner, without restriction on actual usage, or you rule the properties are dependent on how the weapon is used and only apply when weapon usage meets the property requirements.

    Both are valid interpretations, but you need to be consistent in that interpretation and aware of how that decision interacts with the rest of the game.


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    Melkiador wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    GM PDK wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.
    Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?

    The underlying mechanics of Improved Critical are different.

    Improved Critical was never restricted to ranged or melee. It works equally for all weapons, regardless of how the weapons are used or classified.

    I think the point was that an expanded threat range is an expanded threat range. And the two don’t stack. So the enchantment doesn’t let you do something you couldn’t achieve with different means.

    Not at all. This is not about expanded threat ranges. This is about underlying mechanics and unintended interactions.

    The underlying mechanics of Keen and Improved Critical are completely different, even if the end result is mostly the same.

    Improved Critical is a self-contained feat with no real crossover on how it interacts with other feats.

    Allowing melee only properties to work at range, or range only properties to work in melee, has far more potential for unintended interactions and far more edge cases.

    A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.

    The same interpretation carries over, for example, to a keen cestus or keen claw blades. Keen does not function on blunt weapons, and will not function when either is used as a Blunt damage.


    GM PDK wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.
    Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?

    The underlying mechanics of Improved Critical are different.

    Improved Critical was never restricted to ranged or melee. It works equally for all weapons, regardless of how the weapons are used or classified.


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    The DR is going to be very difficult for most melee to get through.


    Champion of Irori - Monk Defenses + Paladin Defenses + stupid levels of AC and saves.


    Philippe Lam wrote:
    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    Philippe Lam wrote:
    Possible reasoning for the Shield Brace nerf : They wanted to avoid the " I fight two-handed and I still have a shield " as best as possible, so the only known avenue would be (at least for me) is being an alchemist with the Vestigial Arm.

    Polymorph spells.

    Starting with Alter Self you can pick up 4+ hands. Monstrous Physique adds in some pretty substantial bonuses and special abilities if you follow that path. Mostly only works for STR based magus and melee wizards, but can be quite powerful.

    I made the assumption based on a zero-buff situation because fights can happen everywhere and minutes/level spells won't cover every situation unless taking the risk to spend several of these. Illusion spells are great to try pushing the group to waste lots of resources.

    One of the reasons it works best for Magus is Spell Combat. You can buff and fight on round 1.

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