VargrBoartusk's page

So I've been kicking this idea around for a while since there is usually a bunch of disconnect and I personally use it to try and help avoid the headaches it can cause.

Pathfinder works best to me when viewed not as one game but several and i'm going to try to touch on them as i see them. There might be more and there might be less but these are the ones that work best for me.

Pathfinder as 3.X Framework
In this type pathfinder is a bare bones mechanics set you use to provide a rules framework to the game you want to run. This is the default assumption of most of the big hardback books. In this rules set class names are skins you use to define your characters abilities and how they interact with the world you're in. Fluff and crunch are disconnected. Fey foundling is a way to get better heals, Goblins are not all comical pyromaniacs and your character can claim paladin/gunslinger/wizard/ninja/samuraihood without having a single level in the actual class. Feat and trait names try to be generic because they are meant as mechanical options and while Golarion examples are given it's largely contextual or as filler information. Fluff where it is present is also somewhat barebones and largely easy to ignore. For example my bloodrager has the dragon bloodline because I like what it give me more then because he had an actual dragon ancestor. Rulings here are simple straightforward and based off of rules interactions. Math is king here and nebulous concepts lead to exploitation. Let's use the following example of tail. Tail is not a thing covered in the rules. Kobolds from a mechanical point of view do not have a tail since having or not having a tail does literally nothing. If I take a feat that gives me the ability to make an attack with my tail it is no different from a feat that gives me a bite or a claw attack that i also do not have. the human heritage feat to gain access to the kobold tail attack is fine since 'tailed' is not a race trait that is toggled on and off like say darkvision or weapon familiarity. House rules are not really as much of an issue because your adding or subtracting stuff as you want to make your game. 3PP, The race building rules, it's all good since basically it's all house rules.

Pathfinder as Golarion
This is the middle of the road. It's also the default assumption of most of the APs and splat books. You're playing in the official game setting so fluff and crunch work together and the names of things have context in the world. You can't take traits pertaining to being from Cheliax as an andoran, wizards and sorcerers are mechanically and socially different with wizards using magic from studying books and sorcerers having magic in the blood reflected both in the rules and the knowledge of the world. As the GM since this is a home game you have final say. Maybe in your world osrion has a different king or maybe Geb is helping Clexiax take over the River Kingdoms. They designed the sandbox and you bought it so now you can tweak it but if you try to bend it to far it's not going to be the same sandbox anymore. Now let's go back to the tail. Kobolds in golarion have tails, there's still no mechanical justification for a tail but artwork and fluff back this up. Kobolds can take a feat to attack with their tails. The human heritage feat does not call out that if you take it for kobold feats you gain a tail so a human taking it to take the tail attack probably will not work unless you work it out with your GM that the heritage feat gave you a useless fluff tail like the kobolds have. It's more of a GM fiat sort of thing. The rules aren't so much different as the assumptions are and fluff relevance has mechanical fallout. House rules happen, it is after all still a home game but, but for the most part RAW and RAI matter. This type of pathfinder is where thing like 'Virtual number of hands' tend to crop up the most.

Pathfinder as A living campaign
Pathfinder Society games are set for a very specific balance level. Weather or not you agree with how it's balanced or that it is balanced don't matter much. What they shoot for is what they shoot for and your opinions don't matter. Not only do the rules have relevance but some options are different or just not allowed to better facilitate it's particular playstyle. Not many rules are seemingly designed for this but FAQs and Errata seem *strongly* influenced by this as it is the largest collection of feedback available to the company. If you never had the problems they make the changes for in your home game it doesn't matter. Because of the balance aims here some things are just flat out no. Back to the tail example. Here it doesn't work. Virtual number of hands problems sort of occur but are less of a problem because at the end of the day this is their sandbox and your just building castles in it.

Pathfinder as a guideline
You have friends, dice, snacks and the books. You don't care about making your own world, you don't obsess over exact rulings. Beer and pretzels and good stories are your goal so all the rules discussions are kinda pointless for you. You're probably on these forums for the same reason crash fans go to nascar rallies. YaY explosions. No one really care about tail attacks.

There are people on these boards I no longer wish to have to see. Is there in fact some way i can block a person ? I havent been able to find it.

Maybe its because I started playing this game when dwarves and halflings were classes, though to be fair i started young and with old books rather then being a greybeard, but I've noticed something fundamentally different about the way I look at this game from what seems like lots of people.. I also like knowing the whys of how things were done as much as the whats were done.. So heres me sharing some of my perceptions and while I am judgmental I dont rank my judgement as better them someone else's for anyone but myself.

First off RPGs in general fall into two broad catagories of games which are the party game <D&D and its successors, Shadowrun, Leverage, ect.> and Character games <White Wolf games, Eden studios games, as well as most survival horror.>

The character game is all about me and my character.. I mean yeah these other guys are with me but they're just some other dudes i work with because of stuff.

The party game is going to get a bit more focus because thats what pathfinder is. In a party game you are a cog in a machine.. I understand that you want to be a special little snowflake and you can be so long as you function as a gear too. When your in this kind of a game.. You have a job and specialization is key.. Some redundancy and backup is nice but if its at the cost of your primary role you are 'failing' at doing things 'correctly' which is ultimately irrelevant since theres no right way to have fun but there are obvious intents in this sort of system and if you do not follow them you will have problems. Okay so now lets break down the party roles as they first appeared.

Fighter: Aka Captn platemail this was the guy who at low levels did the damages then at high levels kept the wizard from getting skooshed.

Thief: This is the only guy in the party that could regularly do stuff that didn't involve other people and things being hurt.. He climmed walls.. He was the only one who really had skills. Also when under optimum circumstances he could stab the crap out of someone

Cleric: He was a band aid wearing enough armor to help things not get skooshed. When a band aid was not needed he swung a hammer okayly.

Wizard: At low levels he maybe killed goblins and kobalds with magic missile and such and then got scary when lightning bolt and fireball happened because damage used to be kinda scary.

Any other classes really just did what the class they were based on did other then the bard which is what every ones girlfriend or semi interested fifth party member was. Also during this time people did stuff and rolled dice and made a lot more stuff up out of whole cloth because the rules were either very simple or completely missing <How long does it take to drown is a vat of yogurt ? The book doesn't say so i must be able to breathe it right ?>

Skipping some stuff and third ed happened, and this lead to some big big changes not all of witch were intentional due to mostly the following. Actual well baked in movement rules as it pertained to combat, weather it was intentional or not damage no longer being scary at high levels, and the whole Wealth by Level Magic item mart concept. Sacred cows were also looked at and they tried to make them useful rather then just a way to make it worth print space to have a ranger and a fighter. Now some of the new classes could jump roles around a little bit mostly due to design oversight because in a nutshell the more complex you make something the better it usually runs but also more spectacular it is when it breaks. Combat becomes the main problem resolution mostly because this part of the game has the most robust and thought out rules. Earlier editions nothing was well thought out so GMs pulled shit out of their corn holes and people complained less because the rules were much more.. Guideliney. If you dont believe that melee combat was the most important facet of 3.X in its design, or rather to its designers then please explain to me why strength used to be worth two other stats.. I mean one more hit and damage with pointy thing beats the pants off more spells per day. So well just ingore the fact I saw less then fifty strength based rolls from a pure spell caster in four years

Fighter: Now the point of this guy didnt change much.. but you couldnt just say I keep myself between them and the wizard because position mattered in the game.. This made the fighter have to find other ways to keep the wizard from getting skooshed. The fighter class had the feats to do this the paladin was so annoying he was some sort of mystic arrow magnet and the barbarian, ranger and druid all tried to get pounce and kill stuff dead.

Thief: Well now everyone gets skills so I'm not as cool but I'm the one who deals with traps.. until level five when they just dont scare us any more.. I must not be meant to be the skill guy any more because there are a bunch of d6s added to my damage so my purpose *must* be to figure out how to add them to every attack and whine when I cant because everyone knows I'm the hand to hand damage guy. He wasnt nor was he supposed to be but the inherent 3.X design flaws of level scaling did not help this guy though the old cross class skills being relevantly lower at least kept him feeling like he might do stuff maybe when the wizard didnt prep the spell that invalidated the skill that way. Rangers once they got the 6 skill points dipped a level of rogue for trapfinding and were just as useful in the thief role for everything that mattered because no one ever makes us pick a pocket for stuff.

Cleric: So.. to make up for wearing armor, the ability to heal, and having more then a 1/2 me level attack scheme I used to have spell slots that didnt hot 9th level.. now i do.. And domains.. and i still turn undead.. but thats lame so i get feats to let me do stuff that doesnt suck with channeling and in trade for being able to game my spell list into a monster I get.. people being mad I'm not willing to tank and band aid any more. Seems legit.

Wizard: Well.. damage isnt scary any more but hey.. I have save or suck spells.. I dont need to hit things.. I dont really ever run a rick of getting hit thanks to the obviously thoroughly play tested efficacy of spells so.. Eh. Oh.. Also ? theres this sorcerer now so there will be huge flame wars over whose better.. And since moar spellz is moar powur I'm going to get bonus feats I'm barely use. I'll never use more then five or six of my highest level spells per day.. But if your smart and pick the right spells as you go up a sorcerer versatility vs throw another spell at it kind of breaks even.

Now there was an actual design philosophy of a party expending a specific percentage of their resources to overcome a threat depending on its CR and because this whole CR thing was now a thing DMs could afford get a bit lazier and just check a number and if it matched toss them at the party and have an idea of how it should be.. Then players decided that it was more fun to try and use as few resources as possible per encounter to show those pesky rules whose game it was. Twinking and minmaxing have always been a part of gaming and always will be. Also the internet was now a thing so people competed with charcter build to be the best forumers ever.. Mostly because they still get a little teary eyed and defensive when they see tape measures <The rerl reason for the emnity between table-toppers and wargamers is wargamers overcame this fear.>

Now we come to Pathfinder and while it is by far my favorite 3.X set of house rules and my favorite form of D&D because its still got the same chassis as what came before it and wants backwards compatibility some stuff cant change without changing the system. Were going to replase prestige class glut with core class and archetype glut and pretends it doesnt actually end up kind of being a wash for exploitative purposes. Were going to do a good job fixing a lot of problems but some of them now are just stuck in the system and cant be designed out.. Were also pretty sure everyone wants to be a badass special snowflake so were going to blur a lot of lines and give everyone more options so they can do whatever they want... Even though with how this system works specializing is better and the skill system still breaks down so the skill based classes have to pull as much weight as the combat classes in a fight or no one will like them.. but then the combat classes wont have the skills so we have to make them just better enough in a fight to be better but not to better even though it doesnt matter because 6th level spells and up wreck the game mechanically. It inherited most of these big problems. It tries to fix the ones it can and ignores the ones it cant.. It listens to its play group feedback sometimes maybe a bit to much.

Here's the core of it though. No ones game is the game. Everyone's mileage varies. What is broken at your game is underpowered in someone else's and one game cant please everyone. If your having huge problems with something have a mature conversation with your group and talk about the problems your having. Your rogue sucks ? His barbarian is out damaging your druid ? That wizard is better then this sorcerer ? Its gonna happen. No class is getting a major overhaul at this point from Paizo and spells and feats from any book on its second or later printing are probably well anchored to so you have to fix it yourself. Its okay.. I trust you with the power and responsibility both.

TL;DR Our views are shaped by our perceptions and experiences.. Things obvious to you are not to others and when it comes to gaming someone who disagrees with you is just different not wrong.

Okay so we did a big batch of combats, skill challenges and heres the collected information my groups come up with.

Arcanist - Versatile is the word of the day here its got options options options.. However like most party oriented games focus nearly always trumps versatility.. As a general party buff wizard this guy is good but the specialty school wizards are all just better at what they do. This classes power more then many others is GM caveat class where access to scrolls and such makes or breaks it.

Bloodrager - This one took forever to playtest the various bloodlines and builds but it performed well.. It has some serious combo-wombo wonky to it depending on allowed feats and such but it was less full on steam rolling then the barbarian. Flavor Wise we loved this class and it felt like the most thought out in terms of fluff.

Brawler - The idea of an unarmed fighter that wasnt seeking enlightenment is something my group has thought missing for a while. We all agreed he works like Bane from Batman, the comics specifically. This is not a thug or a tavern brawler. This is a class of perfectly directed brutality. When needed he steps back and figures out rationally what he needs to break whatever is in his path. He takes the monks all the time versatility and applies it to hitting things and like his general refusal to depend to much on one thing relies first and foremost on his own body. I cant add anything new on the few squidgy mechanics problems' lame capstone, and language cleanup other then to say his martial maneuvers really does seem to need to keep scaling for action economy as he levels up. It cant hyper specialize as well as the fighter and it lacks the monks grab bag of situationally not awful random.

Hunter - This class is confused and awkward.. worse spells then the druid, worse in combat then the ranger. Animal focus seems just.. unimpressive most of the time you use it and mostly just went back and forth between bear and wolf since everyone needs hitpoints and scent is a thing that is surprisingly useful. Hunter tactics would be an awesome idea if teamwork feats didnt both members to be doing the same thing so often.. It would be nice if there were some melee/range or melee/spell rather then the melee/melee or target/target type we have now. Other then that its got a grab bag of ranger and druid stuff that makes it woodsy.. I think this class could use some eidolon evolutions or something to improve the pet.

Investigator - All the skill monkey of the rogue but better less of the flanking stabbity. This class seems like a pharmaceutically inspired PC expert that should honestly probably just have the whole skill list as class skills. Though some of its talents allow for that to not be needed. We didn't think he should get to pilfer rogue talents when the slayer couldnt. Inspiration was actually a fun and interesting do-hicky to play with and came in handy enough times to matter. We agree with the replacement of sneak attack and would like to see some way rather then moar damage for him to debilitate his foes.

Shaman - Like the bloodrager play testing every combination was a nightmare.. so much in fact that we only did like five before we just went 'Okay this class just works.. It does lots of work. I think shiting it to the druid spell list like some suggested is a great plan since that would give us 2 full casters that use it and it jives more with our ideas of shaman. Its combat presence was less obvious then clerics or oracles but as a support class that helped the party do better it was off the chain.

Skald - We just didn't know how to judge this class.. It was less a bardbarian and more just a variant bard nothing in and of itself seemed to be barbariany other then it raged too when it granted rage.. Spell kenning was interesting and maybe if expanded to be more important would make it pop more

Slayer - To us this class swashed more bucklers then the swashbuckler did.. Its chosen target felt very duelist-i focus on a single dude-like but then it had all the tracking and running down of prey that it has.. We found this to be one of the best fusions on the simple side and feel that with an expanded talent list and the bluff skill added in it will be perfect.

Swashbuckler - Okay so the class isn't bad per se. But when almost ever ability seemed just not quite right in some way with some stuff We figured this class needs to allow all light and one handed weapons or everyone will just always go rapier or scimitar-dervish dance and we hated that picks and flails were swashy but kukri, fighting sticks and whips were not. The parry riposte is an awesome idea that doesnt play well mechanically, The class wants to be charismatic for flavor but is better dumping the stat and taking extra panache as a feat. To be a front liner combatant it has to take feats that don't taste right and when you take the feats that do taste right you don't fill your d10 full BAB role very well.Lots of good ideas that just need smoother execution.

Warpriest - The only class in this i will say seemed bad We just didn't think it contributed more to healing then a clerics it fights worse then the inquisitor. People want a holy champion that can.. champion and not just be a cleric that traded spells at useful levels for feats that its bab often isnt good enough for. Maybe give it bab = to hit die for the deity weapon or the often mentioned magus for buff spell idea.. We just couldnt figure out what the intent of this class was enough for feedback

Okay.. Lets kick this pig.. Ive seen a whole bunch of stuff pro or con the rules now I'm gonna throw out some stuff I see as related to the spirit of gaming.. Ive noticed a few things here and there on the boards or even among some gaming groups that for one reason or another have begun to bother me..

I'm going to start by saying this list is not directed at and persons in particular and and resemblance to people real or imagined is unintentional and definitely in no way deliberate.. IE if you think i'm talking about you.. Your wrong.

First of all the posts that are a variation of 'We have to change blah to a less powerful version so that the power gamers don't win.'

Why ? Just because some people spend four hours crunching numbers to make their characters statistical badasses and some people spend the same amount of time writing up the characters childhood in hogwaller marshes. Suck it up, deal, and do a little min-maxing yourself.. This is a game built around a four to five person party killing things. Yes playing a role is important to but don't be a jackass and play an 8 str 17 int fighter because you like the concept then complain that the twink gets all the glory.. Its your own fault. These games are supposed to be fun for everyone power gamers and role players alike. Even better.. You and your party twink can work together he can help you min max a little and you can help him round out his character background

Second off The phrase to much bookkeeping..

C'mon ? Seriously ? This is an issue for people ? Its a game.. played out of books.. Lots of people i know buy a new notebook for every character they make to record observations random stuff equipment little bits of math all sorts of this.. The whole game is about bookkeeping and very very easy math.. If you cant do it find something else to do and stop jacking up my hobby. Or if your Gamer SO wont let you off the hook that easy at least play something easy that doesn't need to be dumbed down.

Third off Player and GM responsibility
This another important part of this game and the best way to deal with the lack of it is much like how many ancient tribal societies dealt with people doing wrong. Its called shunning.. Its a simple concept if someone is a jackass and making the game less fun for everyone tell them what they're doing and tell them to take a week off. If it doesn't work you might have to take longer or even more permanent steps.. Same if its the GM.. if all his players walk he might get the idea and be ready to listen.. And if not.. Let another player stp up.. I mean I'm spitting distance from being a dyslexic mongoloid who walks around saying "I'm an exelent driver." and I run a fifty plus person larp and between two and three tabletop games so if I can do it anyone can. But the long and short of it it keep each other honest and try to let everyone enjoy the game.

Fourth off Tomi O'Niceness and the Hugsalot Gamers

This is the one that really really pisses me off.. stuff like 'I don't want half orcs being a product of rape in the core book cause its mean and hurtful an..' STFU put down your PETA friendly dice bag and join the real world. This is a game not a grand conspiracy to discourage friendliness no matter how much I might wish otherwise. First off.. Your character is likely trying to commit small scale genocide against the various monster races and second off In a game like this where good and evil are actual tangible things you have to have heroes and villains that are good and evil themselves.. Sure sometimes you want a more three dimensional antagonist but sometimes you just need the gold ole villainy for the sake of villainy bad guy who rapes and pillages and kills just to evoke that visceral gut wrenching hatred. Not every bad guy should be pitied for his tragic past.. Sometimes black and white are the only colors writ upon the wall. The amount of detail you go into is a group to group thing based on age and maturity of the players involved but don't whine at the game company from telling you from the get go 'Hey.. sometimes evil crap happens in our world' Ya know why ? Cause as a hero its your job to fix it. If you want to play 'Candyland the RPG' by all means do so but try to realize that games with conflict involved *have* to have some things in them that offend you as a decent human being and mentioning them is not the same as condoning them.

Okay so the first two games have more or less been done and the party has mostly solidified. All at level 6 and standard gear

Char 1
Half-Orc Monk. Mostly built to take advantage of its mobility bounce it take a few ninja kicks bounce out. Does well enough but as allways with monks best VS wizards or multiple small dudes.

Char 2
Gnome cleric of Jim Bob.. Finder of stuff and getter of jobs. <Damn you Robin Williams>. We switched the Level 1 powers of the air and storm domains.. Why does the storm have a wind ability and the air a lighting one ? WTF ? Storm and Animal domains. The new cleric healing ability is in a word.. Retarded.. Three frickin games and she's used spells rather then channel energy 1 frickin time. Other then that she's mostly a standard buff cleric tossing out small enemy penalties and small party bonuses.

Char 3
The human rogue is.. Words fail me twf backstabbing kukri's of doom. Let the flanking and surprise round buggery abound and since you can backstab anything up to and including your mom now.. Its like putting kittens through a sausage grinder.

Char 4
The human Arcane Sorcerer. Oh god.. The magic missiles.. they burn and so does the fire ball.. Actually.. Combat blasters are more or less the same as they ever were. mooks fry by the dozens and big guys loose a chunk of heath too.. and with a ranger two rogues and a monk in the party.. Area effect spells into melee combat ? Pashaw.. They party likes to tumble about. Oh.. and never never nver give any party with an imagination and a sense of humor unlimited prestidigitation and other sillyable cantrips

Char 5
Elf Fighter. Mostly an archer but a decent backup melee combatant.. Archers hurt me in the no no place of the pants but that's not any different then its always been. Low con + bow = who needs HP

Char 6
Elf ranger and her pet crocodile. !st time gamer and still getting used to it but the rules are clearly presented enough most of the time that she's having little trouble. When she went to the costume party as a crocodile and dressed her animal companion in robin hood style clothes.. I couldn't help but giggle. Once more.. I hate arrows.

Char 7
The Human fighter sorcerer. True strike + fighter standard action feats.. Well.. This ones already bordering on obscene and only going to get worse as time goes by.. His only real debate is weather or not to take enough Sorcerer levels for the i cant believe its not fighter Transformation.. Soon however the Prc's will be ready and he can take levels of the caster melee combo for feats and full spells and BAB Oh well.. At least while transformed he cast cast true strike.

Char 8
The dwarf barbarian Smashes lots well enough.. Forgets to use rage a lot
often crits with random bits of scenery then utterly fails with the greataxe.

Char 9
Halfling rogue. 'Yes Josh we can treat juggling balls as subdual shuriken.. No Josh they dont all get the backstab dice when you throw three at once.. Yes Josh if you enchant them with frost and juggle them with it on youll hurt yourself.' 'nuff said

Char 10
A human fighter ranger.. God damn archer.. Who's probably going to make something new now as we have enough ranged

First game had 1 2 7 8 9 10 Intro game little dice rolling mostly BG stuff

second game had 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 VS 50 cr 1 Devil mooks No contest Total PC domination. There was also some skill and targeting practice so I could get a feel for how things went. Costume ball RP was kinda fun.

Third game had 2 3 5 6 9 10 vs CR 12 black dragon.. They took it down before it could use its second breath weapon i rolled a 4 on that one
bless + doom + bane + flanking rogues = guh.
Archers rolling well +rapid shot = guh
Dwarf barbarian nat 20ing with an improvised 2handed thrown weapon for max damage = hehe