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Fake Healer wrote:
noted a lot of mechanical problems

in addition, grappling or attacking a creature like a gray ooze or delver with a weapon destroying special defense.

Wouldn't it bug you that your fighter could just pick up a greatsword and fight with the exact same efficiency as his super unique combat style?

Swarms of fire ants, nearly impossible terrain, poisonous sea snakes. You have a lot of purely natural nasty things at your disposal.

If anubis is in the area then I assume mummies will be making an appearance later at his temple.

What about brewing up some new undead? In the wetlands alligator eggs are under constant threat from red ants. They build their colonies in the nest of alligators and eat the babies the moment they hatch. When you add in sentient creatures to the mix like your croc people that seems like a perfect tragic backstory to some walking dead.

Hopefully the party will try flying to get over the horrendous terrain. What about a will-o-wisp that keeps zapping a spellcaster in the party while he tries to sleep so that he cannot prepare new flight spells. The creature then flies off and waits at a safe distance following the party as they trudge through the marsh and feeding off their misery and suffering. If the party doesn't discover the menace within a certain period maybe it will have advanced a hit die or two from the nourishment.

Does anyone know of a weather archive online? A place where you can find such information as the date, temperature, amount and time of any showers or dense cloud covering, wind velocity over a small region with the follow up weather conditions of the rest of the week or longer.

I'm hoping to find such information for, say a temperate forested region in the midwest, so that the weather is accurate for my players who happen to be adventuring in a temperate forest. If I can find out the intensity and duration of rain, fog, clouds and the like that would go even further toward my goal of realistic weather conditions.

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
The problem with ability score checks seems fairly easy to adjudicate to me - change the DC.

I agree wholeheartedly for the most part. I just like this small adjustment because I dislike the idea that having a 20 str just means you have a +25% chance to bust down the door as compared to the wimpy 10 str bard. Plus I hate having to describe to players how their magically augmented fighter just got done shredding a dragon, but rolled a 2 trying to break open the treasure chest and has to spend three or four decidedly unheroic rounds of flustered grunting to pry it open.

make str checks a roll of 1d6 + your str score + your size modifier (the one that adjusts grapple chaecks), you automatically succeed if your ability score is equal to or one less than the DC.

There, no more 22 str raging barbarian psychos failing to unjam a door and no more 8 str wizards rolling 20's and breaking it open for them.

Majuba wrote:
Also, it's quite possible you can only make one attack per round with Produce Flame, as a touch spell. Alternatively, Flame Blade is used like a scimitar, and thus would get iterative attacks.

Produce flame is not a touch spell. It is a spell with a range of personal that grants the ability to make melee and ranged touch attacks after it has been cast.

In the combat section under the Attack action in the PHB it lists casters attacking with a touch spell as an armed unarmed strike alongside natural attacks and a monks unarmed strike. It lists such attacks as having both offensive and defensive benifits to being armed. Insomuch that they do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and can be used to deliver attacks of opportunity.

To my knowlege there are no actions which can take advantage of attacks of opportunity that are not also attack actions (I.E. they can be used as a part of a full round attack to gain extra attacks).

This is the only evidence I could find to support the idea that a melee touch attack granted by a spell could grant secondary attacks or be utilized by two weapon fighting. But I could not find any evidence to the contrary.

In the last campaign I had quite a few characters die and I wanted to quickly plug my new characters in so the party could move on. So twice in one campaign my characters died and then the party found two more replacements at the nearest inn.

After the TPK we are still keeping the quest (destroy an evil minor atifact) but with new characters and different reasons for wanting it destroyed.

The party meets by one team (two members) of the party hunting down the other two, beating the crap out of them, and taking the book. Then my characters show up just in time to stop them from handing over the book to the disguised forces of evil and we end up working together to defeat the shapechanged teiflings. After the fight neither team was willing to give up their quest to destroy the book. So the only choice is to work together, lots of friction and hatred flowing around.

Moff Rimmer wrote:


Produce flame -- 1 min/level -- HOWEVER the duration is reduced by 1 minute with each attack you make. So if you are 5th level, you get 5 attacks with it.

Hope that helps.

Actually the race to find something superior about flameblade began under the idea that Produce flame only gets its' time drastically reduced when you hurl it. I reread the spell description yesterday and it's the first time I ever noticed my mistake. Until that I was really curious as to what made Flame blade worth the extra spell level.

Celestial Healer wrote:
I can see where somebody could argue for the larger threat range, though.

I ask because I've been trying to find something that would make the spell an attractive option over produce flame.

Produce flame does more damage on average than flame blade until you reach 8th lvl (in which case thay tie). In addition produce flame has the versatility to be thrown and is a spell level lower.

Maybe I'm just reaching here but I keep looking at the spell to find out what I might be overlooking and the oddity of the scimitar comment stuck out.

Okay, something has been bugging me about the flame blade spell.

The spell description states you wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar

Does that mean an attack with a flame blade crits on a 18-20?

Can this go back to talking about campaigns and questions about spells and feats and suppliments and such?

...Just thought I'd ask, I have a question about the flame blade spell but I'm afraid it will be whisked away

Phil. L wrote:
Pity the prc can't actually dance on fire though. ;-(

Fire resistance bro, dance away.

Frenzied Berserker gets hit with a poison dart trap for one damage and isn't effected by the poison (naturally). The only targets of his Frenzy happen to be the party members following behind him, foolishly relying on their so called "friend" for protection rather than mindless and unprovoked murder.

The Berserker gets no significant weaknesses to balance their incredible class benefits (a.k.a. doubling the damage output of a standard barbarian).

The "weakness" is a possible death sentance to allies! That's the equivalent to making a PrC for sorcerers that maximizes all your spells damage so long as one or more of your allies will take damage from it.

Xellan I'm not sure that I understand your argument.

Xellan wrote:
These guys have a high damage output, but the cost is that they're really vulnerable to any enemy with some brains about them.

As Searn said the high intelligence enemies would likely try to use conventional tactics of dealing with barbarians, at least at first (good luck with them lasting long enough to realize their mistake).

Xellan wrote:
Calm Emotions or any spell that could potentially end the rage, any spell that kills them outright,

It kills them if they are already below -10. They have a LOT of hit points and nothing lasts very long in melee with them so that in and of itself is a large hurdle before one could even attempt a tactic with relatively low chances of success and requiring suspiciously intimate knowledge of a characters class abilities.

Xellan wrote:
/tactics/... all work against the FB.

I don't see how tactics are any more severe a deterrent to a FB than they are to any other class or monster. In fact, PC's are famous for using tactics to overcome specific weaknesses and make sure the character in question gets to do their job. Fly and Mind Blank have always been really popular choices for boosting Melee warriors and they do no less for a frenzied berserker.

I've played alongside frenzied berserkers and seen how much power they are capeable of bringing to bear. Put a frenzied berzerker and a normal fighter in the same party and see if the fighter still has a chance of making an impact in combat. Any melee monster that can even challenge the berserker would be a death sentance to the fighter (and likely to many other party members). A monster that challenges the fighter would be a puddle at his feet as soon as the berzerker had his first turn.

In the game we played everyone lived in fear of the Berserker. Lots of spells in the casters arsenal were designed to deter or escape the berserker, rather that fight enemies. And yes, because of the massive boost to str that berserkers get in combination with rage and frenzy the frenzied berzerker could charge and kill the weakest member of the party at full hit points easily with his massive to hit bonus. If he managed to get a critical (with his keen falcion) and another party member happened to be within reach, thats two (or more) dead party members in one round (and he still can keep going if he keeps failing saves). God help you if he still has haste on him when he goes psycho.

Sebastian wrote:
Sexi Golem 01 wrote:
The only problem I see with this feat is the looks on a players face when an enemy uses it on one of them. But hey, my last PC death was via Death Knell spell.
Your DM rules.

Thanks, when I said my last PC death. I meant the last one I caused.

Sebastian wrote:


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Will Saern let you go Druidic Avenger and trade your animal companion for fast movement (handy for a mobile combatant) and barbarian rage (fitting your description perfectly)?

Thanks but I'll probably stick with full druid. I like the animal companion and this PrC seems like the same thing as taking one barbarian level minus the ditched animal.

Saern wrote:

I'm going to stick my neck on the line a bit and guess Sexi wouldn't want to go for that anyway. Additionally, I don't have any clue what resources those come from, so that's probably not an option. :)

Your damage output will be dramatically reduced without the rogue levels complimenting this tactic, Sexi, but if you're fine with that, go for it.

It will and yet it won't. I'll lose the sneak attack but bigger caster level equals more damage. With a high durability fighting style (and a personality that prefers drawn out duels) I don't see it as being that much of a problem. If the party doesn't have time for his fire whittling he can drum up some reinforcements with summon natures ally.

MAN am I a moron! I always advocate keeping things simple and sticking to core rules. And here I am pulling prestige classes and feats out of my ass!

I figured out the solution to my problem, FULL DRUID! I don't have to worry about his caster level or not having any other options to fall back on. His attacks are the feral rage of a beast not the calculated patient strikes of a rogue! ARRGHH! It even fits his personality and backstory better!

(Repeatedly slaps self in face with still-lit travel sized barbeque)

Saern, if you don't mind I'll go ahead and rework the character at home, not much will change save for a pretty major skill overhaul, and that dex booster will get swapped out for a wis booster, (he'll be casting cats grace on himself for now). His fighting style, feats, items, and character background and temperment will all be the same still so their shouldn't be a lot more work on your end (I hope).

Saern wrote:

Perhaps if the feat were narrowed to a specific energy type of the player's choice (fire in this case), the bonus could be doubled (or more). Perhaps a +8 or even +10 bonus on the caster level of fire spells, to a maximum of your HD. Not sure what the prerequisites would be; Practiced Spellcaster requires 4 ranks in Spellcraft.

Yeah that sounds good, I just didn't like the idea of my characters healing and barkskin getting stonger when all he character is really concerned with is his fire attacks.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Would the feat apply to sorcerers, too? How about druid/sorcerers?

I suppose their wouldn't be much difference, although scorching ray would have more immediately potent applications than produce flame.

Then again, having your first lvl spells filled with nothing but burning hands I can certainly see how a sorcerer gets the crappy end of the stick over all.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Two things:

(1) I had always viewed Combat Expertise as a misleadingly-named Improved Defensive Fighting. I mean, it's got similar mechanics, and it accomplishes the same thing. In other words, the benfits from Combat Expertise would supercede those for fighting on the defensive, rather than stacking with them. Dunno, just seemed logical to me, is all. Has the Sage ruled on this, by any chance?

Thats a completely valid perspective, but the two do have differences. Combat expertise is tied to your base attack bonus, whearas fighting defensively the manuvers are more basic and anyone can do it to the same effect. Personnally I think the two should stack for the same reason Dodge and a Dwarfs bonus against giants should stack. Besides combat expertise depreciates in value greatly if it only imporves and existing ability. If their was some fighting aggressively move that functioned as a less effecient power attack I would agree. Feel free to ask the sage though (I actually don't know who that is but I trust he is some kind of rules clarifying official?)

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Sexi Golem 01 wrote:
White Hot- your connection to your fire magic intensifies, your caster level for all fire spells equals your total hit dice for the purposes of damage, duration, and spell caster checks to overcome spell resistance

I'd make your CL = your base spellcasting level + your Fire Dancer level. Otherwise you end up with a Rogue 16/Druid 3/Firedancer 1 who casts fire spells at the 20th caster level.

Yeah, I admit that the PrC is SO tailor made to this character that balance is intact for my character conept (I think) but probably not for anything else. He would end up casting produce flame and flame blade at 20th Caster lvl. The benifits of which largely top out at 5th lvl for produe flame and 10th for flame blade. The idea behind this is that at later levels he would stand a chance at breaking through spell resistance, which becomes more relevant later and I didn't want his fighting concept completely nerfed just because of spell resistance.

Since the prestige class is so half-assed and specific I'm likely to abandon the project altogether. Instead I think I've got a feat Idea that might serve the same purpose.

Soul of Flame- Your ability to harnes fire improves at the same rate as the rest of your abilities.

Prerequisits- Able to cast a fire spell of 2nd lvl or higher

Benifits- Your Fire spells caster level is equal to your hit dice for all purposes including your bonus against having them dispelled and breaking through spell resistance.

Drawbacks- Your spell list perminantly and irreversibly is limited only to fire type spells. You can no longer activate magic items such as scrolls or wands unless they are of spells that you are now able to cast.

Dazzle and Light can be cast as fire type spells with no change to their effects.

This limits my character to casting Produe Flame, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, and Summoning a small fire elemental with Summon Natures Ally 2. And the most severe concsequences being that he can no longer cast barkskin on himself, nor can he use scrolls of bear endurance or cast cure light wounds from a wand (a major souce of healing in the party.)

Sounds balanced? I like the feel since his connection to nature was always more tied to his relationship with fire anyway.

The only problem I see with this feat is the looks on a players face when an enemy uses it on one of them. But hey, my last PC death was via Death Knell spell.

Ooh! I finally figured out an actual use for this thread. I like the idea of how the Halfling picked up his druid levels, but I want to focus more on the halfling gaining power over flame than nature itself.

Prestige class!

Fire Dancer.
+5 BAB
Able to cast at least one fire type spell of second or higher
Either Iron will or Lightning Reflexes (haven't decided)

Knowledge nature 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks, Intimidate 6 ranks

1st +1 White hot, Fire Eater
2nd +2 Resistance to fire 5, Flaming Terror
3rd +3 Immolate
4th +4 Resistance to fire 10,
5th +5
Reflex as good save

White Hot- your connection to your fire magic intensifies, your caster level for all fire spells equals your total hit dice for the purposes of damage, duration, and spell caster checks to overcome spell resistance

Fire eater- You can siphon heat from nearby flames to cast your spells. Any non-magical fire within 60 feet, at your option, leaps to your hand and provides the power to a fire type spell of 4th lvl or lower as you cast it, the fire is effectively extinguished but you do not use a spell slot to cast your spell. The power of the spell replaced is determined by the size of the fire,
1st, a lit torch, a creature burning from an alchemists fire,
2nd, a campfire
3rd, a large fire like a big bonfire or a small burning building
4th, a burning building
A massive confligration such as a forest fire cannot be extinguished with this ability but can be used to power spells indefinately as long as the fire rages.
Flamming creatures can be siphoned but they get a fortitude save (10+ fire dances level + charisma modifier to resist. On a failed save fire eater works normally and the creature takes 1d6 points of damage per spell level siphoned, if the save is successful fire eater fails and you must make a DC 15 + hit dice of the creature, concentration check or lose the spell.

Flaming Terror- Once per round when you strike an opponent with a melee attack that successfully deals fire damage, you can make an intimidate check to demoralize that foe as a free action, you recieve a bonus to this check equal to half the fire damage dealt.

Immolate- Once per day you can activate a fire shield spell (as a fire spell only) as a spell like ability with a caster level equal to your hit dice.

hmmm.... not sure what else...

Shortly after a TPK about this time last night I was thinking about the two halfling characters that I had enjoyed playing so much. In particular I thought back to how useful the produce flame spell was for my druid and how much fun it was to tumble around with my rogue and make sneak attacks. In one poof of inspiration I found the character concept that would replace my fallen PC's and continue on in their stead.

A halfling with three druid and three rogue levels that casts two produce flame spells and flies into combat with a ball of white hot fire in either hand. Rolling into the center of the largest group of enemies and lashing out with flaming melee touch sneak attacks. Thanks to a 22 dex, a ring of protection and a size modifier, the tiny flaming terror has an AC of 18 with no armor and one +1 ring.

With a mage armor spell (either from his sorcerer companion or a potion) and a barkskin, that AC rises up to 24.

Further more if he really wants to be a bastard he can use combat reflexes to pull his +4 BAB into his AC and with fighting defensively he can take another -4 to attacks for a +3 bonus to AC (+3 due to his tumble ranks) for a maximum AC of 31 for a 6th lvl character wearing no armor (25 of which is all touch AC). Sure he takes a -8 to attacks but that still leaves him with a +1 on his melee to hit a touch AC and he is most likely going to be flanking so I still like those odds.

His personality and backstory are the best part though. His insecurity and abandonment in his youth led to a twisted form of vigilante justice in the emotionally damaged halfling. He protects the few (few meaning ONE person for right now) people he trusts with saintly self sacrifice, and visits a decidedly terrible vengance on those who sought to harm them. He sees no need to get needlessly involved in fights that don't concern him, but if one force appears to be bullying or simply toying with obviously inferior opponents he snaps. Petty bullies are likly to recieve painful burns in sensitive places as punishment for their thuggery. More aggresive violators recieve horrible deaths.

Just the idea of a feral shirtless halfling rolling through dozens of attacks completely untouched surrounded by foes, his body a whirling demonic thing bearing flaming death in both hands, seems like a really cool idea (if quite possibly the most unsettling character to my name)

I honestly have no idea why I posted this, other than the fact I love and am proud of the concept and wished to share it.

Heathansson wrote:

Here's what I'd do you guys. Walk away from the whole deal for a day or two. Go see a movie, or catch some crawdads, or whatever the hell else you do. Let the tempers boil down, let the bad stuff run cooler.

Chalk the whole thing up to a learning experience/ breaking eggs/ whatever. Hit shappens.
I can't realistically sit here and analyze what went wrong, because I don't have the whole friggin story. But everybody remember that none of you are 100% in the right or in the wrong; it's rarely ever that way in life. When the crap hits the fan, everybody ends up covered in it; just kick back and see what you can figure out/what could've been done differently, and don't get all blamey on eachother.

My 2 cents...

Sorry Heathy, fresh out of crawdads...

Seriously though, we're good.

Do I think that several of the circumstances surrounding and leading to my characters deaths mistakes? Yeah. But they are honest mistakes that have been apologized for. I'm not really one to hold a grudge but the TPK bugged me since I liked my characters so I blew off some steam on the rant thread, that's what it's here for. I'm actually over at Saern's right now making new characters that I'm really excited about.

My rant was just that, a verbal release of frustration with no target or objective.

S~+@ happens and everyone makes mistakes, I realize this and, as usual, am over it.

So s'all gudd.


FIVE! Five dead friggin characters in one campaign! Not munchkin, not disruptive, not stupid. These were five well played characters that performed to the best of their ability, befitting of their characters, and taking sensible actions!

Two died in one fight because half of the party was cut off from the halfing druid who ran up to stop the tieflings and was expecting the dwarf to follow suit.

The halfling holds on for a long time hoping that the dwarf/warlock/or wizard would be able to finally kill the CR 1 manes that were attacking them (and as pitiful as the party was doing, they should have been much worse off since the DM forgot to account for the manes Damage reduction for the whole fight). The halfing holds on, he and his wolf are wounded badly, but so are both of the longspear weilding teiflings. So a teifling drops his spear and steps up and knocks the halfling into negatives, okay that's fine, BUT OH WAIT! The teiflings blade was poisioned ahead of time! Sasson leaf residue!? That poison by itself (deals 2d12 damage and then 1d6 con) would be enough to drop and kill any member of the THIRD LEVEL party all by itself. On top of that the teiflings apparently decided to sandbag their poisoned blades until they were about to die for some reason, f*&cking super. The wizard gets clawed to death by manes because they have three attacks per round and the rest of the party was rolling so terribly that the wizard made some last ditch effort to help, which put him too close to the front line.

NEW Characters!

Okay how about a gnome bard and gnome wizard!
Thats cool, run around in some ruins for awhile, kill some skeletons and about THIRTY goblins! A battle which we only won because of a summon swarm and invisibility combo killing two to three of them a round (a trick the DM didn't even know we were capeable of so who knows how he expected us to beat them). Anyway, the day after that make a spot check. Bad Roll? Okay, well a sphinx jumps out and rips you to peices before anyone can react. CR 5 melee type flying monster gets a full attack against a flat footed THIRD LEVEL WIZARD! AWESOME. The bard was a happy go lucky type of guy and a didn't want to play him as a sullen and depressed guy who watched his brother brutally murdered, so I had him leave, announcing that he kept his items and the majority of the items the wizard had on his body so that the party would not get an unneccesary money boost for the DM to deal with. Aren't I a great sport!?


OKAY! HALFLING ROGUE AND HUMAN FIGHTER! They do GREAT. And they are powerful! the fighter has a 16 in dex and str, and the halfling has a 20 dex and 18 intelligence. They even were lucky enough to make it to 5th lvl and survive nearly FOUR WHOLE SESSIONS!

Okay the halfling scouts ahead and finds a small gully with some lizard folk blocking their path, he sees several more down the way. He sets a guard tower on fire for a distraction and runs to go get the party. They come back and wipe out almost half of the first wave in short notice, but not without a price, one of the lizardfolk had a bastard sword and hit pretty hard, and their were two rangers shooting at us with rapid shot and precise shot left, along with half a dozen lizard folk left clogging the valley and preventing the rogue from having any flanking opportunities. SIX more Lizard folk run up to join the fray. two rounds later SIX MORE, and these guys brought a druid with them! AND the druid brough his crocodile companion! Okay this is getting out of hand, hmm is retreat an option? Well lets see, the party is wounded and all are locked in melee with at least two opponents threatening each one of them. Running away means loosing your dexterity bonus And provoking attacks from all the combatants facing you, then you end up without a dex bonus while staying in range of the archers that could launch four attacks per round and even the dozen or so lizard folk left can move and throw javelins and the druid can still hit you with a lightning bolt! So running means the death of at least one, maybe two characters. Well, nevermind that whole running away thing because two HUGE centipedes with more rangers riding them SNEAK UP on the party and completely block all hope of retreat and provide flanking bonuses for all the little lizardfolk beating on the party. Oh, and next round six more lizardfolk arrive and these have one of the tougher fighters from before with them.



Very interesting perspective Magdalena, thanks.

I love to play chaotic characters, and for the most part I like to DM for chaotic characters. But the overall vibe I usually get from posts on these boards is that chaotic characters lead to lots of abuse and DM headaches.

I've also noticed that chaos is sometimes thought of as inferior to law. The idea that the demons only compete in the blood war because of limitless numbers, since their chaotic natures would make them easy to skatter and they would not do well in large battles as they lacked organization.

I figured I'd throw up this thread to facilitate some discussion about what chaos means for DM's and players.

What chaos means to me
I always think of chaos as the embodyment of change and adaptation. Chaotic creatures are never sated with the Status Quo for long, and are constantly and rapidly trying to pursue their goals by the most immediate means. They create short term plans and may abandon their original target objective altogether if they see a new goal within their grasp. Such characters are resistant to anything that would impede or restrict them. Thus obligations are typically avoided, in a manner consistant with the rest of their alignment. Chatic characters are driven by their emotions and feelings more so than other characters. Emotions are fickle and unpridicatable and giving oneself over to them removes the control that lawful characters thrive on. Chaotic characters revel in the flood of feelings, rage, lust, fear. There's lots more but iI'm really interested in what others have to say.

What chaos does not mean to me
A chaotic alignment is not semantics for "criminal". Chaotic characters can and often should take a cavalier stance on authority because they dislike restrictions. But manacles and prison cells are even more gross restrictions and chaotic characters would likely be quick to avoid them. Stealing is not any more chaotic than killing is evil. Chaotic good characters cannot go about pickpocketing strangers without an alignment change. The randomness of targets and opportunities is certainly chaotic but harming (even if not physically) of multiple and complete strangers out of greed is evil. A cat burgler who trains for months on one big "score", going over exit routes and contingency plans religiously is a Lawful character because his internal mechinations are direct calculated and meticulous and consistant.

Chaos does not mean stupid. Chaotic creatures are independant and quick to adapt. The hoards of the abyss might be a barely contained surge of violence compared to the perfect battallions and formations of Hells armies, but they have a very strong ace up their sleeve. Their troops are capeable of thinking for themselves and acting as independant units without loosing their effectiveness. A lone vrock will continue to go for his target without waiting for orders or commands. He won't hesistate to try something else if one tactic is failing, in fact he would probably change gears faster than the armies of hell could. If a demonic battallion is scattered then the surviving soldiers are really no worse for wear and will quickly try something more effective. If a regiment of devils finds themselves cut off from command the lack of leadership would cripple them. Creatures that are not capeable of change and adaptation are just as handicapped by those with no consistancy.

The White Toymaker wrote:

I'd been rather hoping to get in touch with Sexi to try and work out some common connection in our backstories, probably traveling on the same ship to get to (or in his case, back to,) Thirgard; the email bounced back at me, though. You up for that, Sexi?

Yeah that sounds good. Daemen would know the way into Northwind.

My E-mail has changed since I made my profile here. You can contact me through though. I'll start brainstorming ideas.

My vote is for Ad hoc (story) xp.

Toymaker that sounds awesome. I'ts also the reason I didn't go into depth concerning Daeman's dad.

Hunfreer Greensails is a respected member of his small Ak community

Kurocyn wrote:
.I'm working on a "cookie-cutter" bard using just the PHB. That way, there's no random source-book info or stat for him to read up on.

Bless you. That's about the nicest thing I've ever heard a player doing for their DM.

Made a minor edit to Daeman just now. He now has ghost sound instead of mage hand. Just incase that would drastically alter your campaign plans Saern.

This party is looking pretty awesome.

I second the above. And add my encouragement for you to try and show your player the virtues of spells outside of mortar magic. Mirror image, Displacement, Ottolukes resillient sphere, acid fog, reverse gravity, ray of enfeeblement, color spray (in particular). Have had far more impact and added far more fun (and often laughs) to a game than any fireball or lightning bolt.

This is not a hard fact to prove. Any combat with a spellcaster should have a hoard of annoying abjurations, illusions, and battlefield control effects to show that a proper spell selection can nullify most stratagies as well as open up a wealth of others.

However, it seems like chances are good that effectiveness is not what your player wants. That he just really likes to blow stuff up. If this is the case he is happy and you are not and I'm not sure that your problem has a win-win solution.

Good luck though.

Strictly from a power standpoint I disagree that Paladins are weak. Immunites and resistances are awesome albeit they do seem to max out at 5th. Paladins are just really hard to move from the front line. They are hard to affect with spells of all types and immune to fear effects. A paladins smite comes into play often and grows at the same rate as his attacks per round making his first round of combat a blaze of glory.

Remove disease however, is stupid. What the hell is the point of that?

As far as roleplaying they are a pain in the ass. I agree with all of the attention hogging aspects listed above.

Lawful Good is a great alignment and is arguably the one most suited for furthering the cause of good (such characters are usually well motivated at least). The paladins code however is the hurdle that your party will constantly be overcomming. They may have told you to stay away because of this and just told you they were weak instead of having to explain the problem.

I have yet to have an enjoyable experiance with a Paladin in the party and am not expecting that to change. I would never play one for the same reason I would never play a frenzied berserker I don't want to be an obstacle for the other players.

I suggest playing a ranger. Pick some universal evil baddies like Undead or Evil Outsiders as your favored enemy and revolve your attitude around eradicating evil.

But thats just me. Your milage may very.

Vattnisse wrote:
Speaking of pictures, I decided to go with this one. It took a while to find, but I think it was well worth it - I really like this artist's style.

Wow. It's like Gandalf meets Swamp Thing. That's pretty cool.

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Lilith wrote:
Psst - you could ask me to whip up something for you. :P
Well, does the idea of a gianormous-spear wielding lillend-based aasimar speak to you artistically? Perhaps sharing a song or a drink with his travelling companion next to a fire in a small glade?

Heck why not a rendering of the entire party together! Maybe we could get a feel for the group as a whole once we get started and then have a campfire pic with all the characters.

Unless that is way too complicated/time consuming/too much to ask, which I assume it is. But the mental image was so cool I figured I'd pitch the idea anyway just in case some artistic minded paizoians are in need of inspiration.

Finally found the time to get my character done. Well here is Daeman Greensails ready to go.

And I found a picture on Elfwood that matches my mental image of Daeman pretty well

Heres the rolls for Daemen Greensails Human Bard

str-11 dex-15 con-15 int-15 wis-7 cha-16
Tried to put the link up to invisible castle but couldn't get it to work.

Character sheet workup to follow.

Saern wrote:
But would it kill the devil? A creature with regeneration can survive without its head,

Not if the wound that severs it is lethal damage. Lethal damage does not regenerate so the head would not grow back.

The White Toymaker wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
Saern wrote:
But I like Balors more.... :(
The balor only needs to confirm one natural 20 with that greatsword and its all over...
Except, not really. The Balor's weapon is neither silver nor good aligned, and it would need to be both to bypass the Pit Fiend's regeneration. That's a large part of the reason that the Balor will lose, every time: at most, he can keep the thing and drag it to someone who's better suited to destroying baatezu.

Does Regeneration or DR negate the vorpal ability?

The Balor has quickened telekenisis. So can he use that ability to attack with his whip using the spell like ability to weild it while two handing his sword?

If the Balor can't find a way to bypass the Pit Fiends regeneration I have a hard time seeing it winning. And from a roleplaying aspect I think the Balor being less likely to withdrawl from a loosing battle and less likely to use or stick to sound tactics is doubly screwed againsts the calm and calculating demeanor of a Pit Fiend.

Why doesn't the balors sword attack deal 2d6+13 damage? The sword is +1 and the balor has a +12 str modifier. But in the MM it is listed as 2d6+8. The whip should deal 1d3+7 by my figures too.

Just wondering if the writers mistakenly calculated the balors damage as if it had a str score ten points lower or I'm missing something obvious.

Sebastian wrote:
erian_7 wrote:

Actually, per the description of darkvision, "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." So no need for a period to "get used" to the darkness at all. Also, the rules actually specifically state "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

Check the sections Special Abilities: Darkvision and Exploration: Vision And Light if you need specific rule references.

Oi! I stand corrected, thanks for the reference.

I still don't agree with all the implications of the statement that the presence of light does not spoil darkvision. Read literally, that suggests that a blinding flash of light (say, glitterdust) would not effect the target's ability to see if it had darkvision.

Well actually glitterdust might but that requires them to fail a fortitude save. As I said above when using examples like nightvision or our own ability to slowly adapt to poor lighting it would make sense that darkvision would be spoiled or disrupted by light. My guess is this is one of the reasons the designers made it darkvision instead of nightvision. Just the same as they did away with infravision. This way the power can not be compared to real life abilities and there would be no arguments from players about the real world limitations of a creatures sight.

And yes it is an extreamly powerful ability in my persoal opinion and many times my group has found itself walking in the dark through goblin or orc caves knowing a lit torch would alert them to us far before we knew where they were at. I still fear the thought of dwarven, orc, or goblin rogues. All they need to do is jump in a room and kill the lights and they effectively blind all their opponents with no save and escape unlikely.

The DMG says that darkvision is not affected by the presence of light. So it does not matter what the lighting conditions are. Areas lacking enough light to see (enough to grant concealment) fall under the effects of darkvision and are percieved just as clearly as the surrounding lit areas. The assumption that darkvision is disrupted by light makes since when comparing it to nightvision but the rules don't seem to support it.

The half-orc can see the rogue as she gets no concealment and cannot use the hide skill. The DM could call for a spot check if he rules the Rogue is difficult to see despite not being able to hide. Then the spotter would have to hit a DC 0 spot check modified by any penalties he might be under (-1 per 10ft of distance, -5 if he is distracted and so on.)

The shadows do not provide concealment against darkvision. So without something else to hide behind she has no effective concealment and cannot use the hide skill at all against creatures he is completely exposed to.

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How about a vampire Santa Claus? The undead promsises toys to those who leave cookies and treats by the fireplace at night. (The cookies act as consent to enter so Vampy Claus can come inside) Make sure your fast asleep now kiddies or Santa won't come in to give you your present. A twitch of his nose and a gaseous form down the chimeney later, Santa is all set to put that famous red glow back in his cheeks.

You better not shout... You better not cry...

Saern wrote:
I'm curious, Bill, why exactly was Calvin so frightening?

Bill I'm sorry.

I'd honestly thought that I had properly introduced Saern to the majesty of C&H before but obviously I was lax in my duties.


Calvin is a six year old being that under normal human circumstances would seem frightening due to his destructive havok causing capabilities. In addition to the normal horrors a six year old can summon Calvin has quasi-god like powers. In his long career as a popular comic book character Calvin has invented a time machine, a squirt gun capeable of delivering a polymorph any object spell at range, developed a successful cloning machine, and is almost completely immune to learning a lesson.

In addition to this he frequently changes shape into

Stupendous Man- an invulnerable alter ego that has succedded in both reversing time itself and ruining the babysitters relationship with her boyfriend.

Spaceman Spiff- An intrepid hero documented as having single handedly defeated entire spaceships filled with Hideous scum beings of Q-13. (An ECL 28 encounter)

among others

On top of all this Calvin has also never sold his image or likeness to be used by any company other than the publishers responsible for producing his compilation books. A feat unmatched by Peanuts or Garfield.

This sounds really cool. The only trouble I see is that once the PC's find out about the assassination then they are going to A: tell the king or his court somehow and set their guard up (this way if the Assassin succeeds you run the risk of crap like "They knew an assassin was after him why would they have let him eat that?") and B: The party (depending on their reputation) would be completely justified in asking for and likely receiving lots of help from the allied army.

Possible solutions/idea- The PC's are set up. They intercept one or more of the assassins lackeys were given the task of planting incriminating evidence (plans of treacherous assassination) on a high profile member of the opposing military like a general. The PCs demolish the assassins squad of pawns so that either a surviving lackey or the lead assassin himself watching from afar decide that the PCs are a greater threat than their first target and decide to frame the party instead. After the fight they also gain information about the real assassination attempt. So then the party is found with assassination orders and they are hunted as traitors, their credibility shot to pieces by damning evidence they are the only ones with the knowledge to stop the real murder.

This can climax a number of ways. If your party is well versed in espionage then the assassin uses them as trailblazers. The party uses their skills to get closer to the king (in order to protect him) and the assassin stays a half step behind, letting the PC's do the hard work. Then right when the PC's get into place the assassin alerts all the courts countermeasures to their location so the PC's have to fight off deadly allies while the assassin takes advantage of the distraction to accomplish his task.

Alternatively the PCs could follow clues by rounding up pieces of the killers posse and learning the exact moment and place the killing will occur. Framing them was just to provide a red herring for the kings assassin detection unit. Right when they have everything they need to stop the killing they are trapped by the kings forces and arrested and taken to a dungeon very near the site of the future murder. Only a timely jail break and daring rescue can save the kings life.

Sebastian wrote:

Insert typical Sebastian argument about breaking the rules, blah, blah, blah.

Insert Saern counter argument about magic and how it works.

Insert Sebastian counter-counter argument about Game Balance.

Saern - We like it this way.

Sebastian - GAME BALANCE

Sexi - Sebastian, you're wrong and smell funny.

Sebastian - GAME BALANCE...ok, fine, play wrong, I'll take my dice and go home.

Saern & Sexi - anyone else glad he's gone?

Hey! No more paraphrasing arguments! They're not half as fun when I don't get to participate.

Sebastian afterwards wrote:
Anyway, as to the topic at hand, the most destructive thing I ever had a player do was destroy a gem that kept a floating city in the air. This was back in my 2e youth. I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure he demanded xp for all the bad guys that died.

That's friggin awesome! Exactly what I was hoping for with this thread!

What is the most horrendously destructive thing your characters have done? A huge chain of feats and a greataxe crit, a rogue rolling max on a sneak attack, a devious application of enviromental hazards.

I ask because I was recently thinking back on some moments in my D&D past where me and my friends just looked at the dice and said "man... thats rough"

Highlights include a frenzied berserker crit/cleaving/power attacking/raging all over two ogres with a SCYTHE.

And an archer pulling a double crit on two fighters on the same arrow (an exit wound enchantment allowed arrows to go through enemies to hit others).

Looking forward to the harrowing tales of somemore experianced players however, thanks in advance.

The Most Useful: The Rant Thread

The Most Fun; See above

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