Sean R's page

The 5th level Adopted Elf and Half-Elf both have speeds of 35 actually (assuming both took Nimble).

However I will concede that Half-Elf pulls ahead of an Elf trying to be exactly like a Half-Elf by 2 HP at 5th level, and remains 2 HP ahead of said Adopted Elf for the rest of their careers.

I don't think that justifies the four levels it took the half-elf to catch-up to the severely suboptimal adopted elf I've presented as our baseline for comparison. Nor does the comparison allow for the half-elf to choose either of the more flavorful options the heritage feat presents: For example, taking the language instead of speed is equivalent to losing a general feat (which could have been 4-20 HP if you'd taken Toughness) for half of a skill feat (Multilingual).

I had a realization.

If the argument FOR the half-elves is that they get a broader selection of feats later on, I'm going to turn it around.

Every other race (except half-orcs) get a broader selection of feats from the get-go. This sort of falls into the fighter-wizard dichotomy of gaining a benefit later at the expense of choice now, and, personally, I see that as bad design.

Players feeling like their characters are 'lesser' or 'less useful' or 'weakened' is something that bleeds into gameplay. Folks root for the underdog, but it should never come at the expense of an enjoyable experience for all.

Haldo, Everyone!

I just downloaded the Playtest PDF and this is the first forum I sought out. I am deeply curious as to others' impressions because the treatment of Half-Elves and Half-Orcs caught me off guard. I feel they are getting the short end of the stick in this current iteration of the rules.

(To preface, these two have always been my favorite core races to play flavor-wise and mechanics-wise.)

** spoiler omitted **...

In regards to the last bit. Orcs and other Monstrous races are often supported and co-opted by LGBT communities due to how 'other' they tend to be. They're generally not belonging to either race exclusively, and thus end up something of their own. This is very much in line with the marginalized LGBT communities where culture tends to be invented, rather than just borrowed.

I remember one tumblr post where folks were discussing the Babadook being a representation of LGBT, and how creepy, unwanted monsters that are merely misunderstood are often 'coded' LGBT (for those who don't know that means they have traits in common with LGBT individuals without being explicitly so).

It's one of the reasons why I tend to play half-elves and half-orcs myself. To see them treated this way.. makes me feel unhappy.

My first Pathfinder Society character was a half-orc inquisitor of Cayden Cailean. I used some of the unique racial traits and built a character that, though lacking a lot of power, still had some interesting elements and tactics in play. He was still a fun and engaging character in RP.

I understand that the lack of a class can change a character a bit. So I could be a cleric. That isn't a huge loss. I can still play him the way I wanted to.

So I can't be someone who goes around tripping foes left and right, to play up the 'bouncer' angle, but I can choose the Bartender background which I like, so I can still play the same concept.

Yet, when I look at the entry for Half-orc, my heart falters. Without anything aside from regional dialects to work from, ALL humans get are their Ancestry feats for customization. They're pretty powerful, including a free feat or broad skill bonuses to ALL untrained skills. That's very good, or I can trade any of those choices. To be a half-orc.

If I chose a dwarf or elf or gnome, the options are wide and allow a plethora of options. I get an inherent visual sense. I get inherent racial languages. I can get weapon training. I can get extra spells.

Or I can get none of those additional options and play a half-something. I MIGHT be able to eek by with just a racial vision (which is inherent to everyone else but halflings and humans). Maybe get a skill trained. I guess that's nice. Can I pick the skill from a list? Oh. no. I can't. It's the same. No weapon training options. None of that until level 5.

I'm heartbroken over this. Genuinely heartbroken. I stuck around with certain games all the way through the current edition. I have very little room in my heart for hatred in tabletop RPGs. But this, this I genuinely, absolutely hate. I hate it. I think it's a terrible choice. It's novel, sure, but it's short-sighted, under-powered and lacks the signature Paizo care that I expected.

2e is a chance to do better than the previous edition, not take a step back and bottom-shelf two VERY popular race choices.

I like the flexibility. Not a fan of the feat-tax. Again, feat-tax to become multiclass. There seems to be a lot of feat tax for wanting to play concepts that are hybrids of others, something you could do in 1e easily without costing you other class or concept abilities.

This has been my biggest concern when everything was "Feat"ed up, was that feat taxes would tacked on for any character that wants to push outside the mold a bit.

Granted these are great abilities, and come in addition to your core class, but I've seen this used in other popular games to their detriment. At least, in this case, it allows for a broader selection that may or may not work.

I guess this is okay. I have actually played a lot of half orcs and half elves myself and always kind of got the feeling that there was maybe not enough to differentiate those "races" culturally when you hold them up again elves and dwarves who have their own unique histories and what-have-you.

Without reading this whole thread: are there perhaps "half human" ancestry feats for half elves that were raised more in elf society? I don't mind "human exceptionalism" to some extent but I could see this kind of half-breed mechanic running as a sort of two-way street.

To me, the solution is not to down-grade them from the pure races, but to fully flesh them out as unique members of society with elements of their own culture. Yes, they don't 'fit in' perfectly. Yes, they may not claim any nations as their own, but they have their own identity due to this struggle. They stand between two worlds, but belong to neither. THIS is what makes them who they are.

I'd like to see that uniqueness properly reflected in the options provided. They have a niche. Give them it.

This makes me sad.

This makes me very, very sad. Instead of working to give both Half-elves and Half-orcs a good, keen natural foothold in the world, instead they've been given a feat tax in order to exist. It'd be different if the 'feat tax' opened up other ancestry feat options at level 1. Instead, it removes those options.

Why not make being a Dwarf an ancestry feat that humans can take, if we're gonna go that route? A human can take Dwarven ancestral feats so that they can kit their human to be as Dwarflike as the game wishes? Why do dwarves get a full work and write up?

If these two important races are getting the not-actually-a-race treatment, can we at least get two full racial write ups for those that do? Perhaps orcs as mentioned in other threads?

I'm genuinely upset from this. Downgrading my two favorite races has practically destroyed my excitement. No WONDER they waited this long to spring this.

Sean R wrote:

I won't be happy with this change unless there's a way to push outside of the class structure and allow a measure of flexibility. As a cleric (or Paladin), I should NEVER need to choose between Knowledge: Religion and Diplomacy, simply because I have an average INT score. That makes little sense to me, given how churches tend to operate.

As a cleric or paladin with low Int, you can still choose to start out trained in Thievery or even Arcana as a skill. Whichever skills you want, unrestrained by class skills.

Except that I then have to give up Knowledge: Religion and/or Diplomacy. No class who gets it's powers from the gods should be clueless as to how their religion works.

Likewise, no class about studying tomes to cast spells should be clueless as to how spells work (Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft).

You -can- do it in the current system, but it begs the question 'how?' How can this character exemplify these concepts without limiting them to JUST these concepts. If this is core to what the class is about, it should be granted, not limiting. It's part of who the class is.

I could see a Paladin without knowledge: religion, in the case of someone suddenly blessed by the gods who just so happen to exemplify their deities ideals, but someone whom needs to know how to worship? A cleric can't go without knowledge: religion without some extraordinary reach.

To me, I'm okay with a bit of tit-for-tat when it comes to skills, but my biggest pain is looking at the skill list and realizing that I cannot create the roleplaying character in my head, simply because of some rules arbitration. Flexibility is one of the core aspects of Pathfinder I like.

And this can be a deal breaker. I LOVED the background system in 5e. I LOVE the trait system in Pathfinder. Don't pull back and say 'no, none of that' for 2e.

Honestly? Not a fan, not at all.

One of my BIGGEST gripes with DnD is how much is tapes skill availability down to class. By limiting it based off class, you're limiting class concepts, and forcing more 'cookie cutter' character types. For a game that claims 'no two characters are alike', this seems counter to that.

All clerics only have access to X skills is a limiter. It's one that was handled, in part, by traits and archetypes in Pathfinder, and it kept characters in the same ballpark as their core counterparts, but gave a bit more flexibility. It sat in a middle ground.

I won't be happy with this change unless there's a way to push outside of the class structure and allow a measure of flexibility. As a cleric (or Paladin), I should NEVER need to choose between Knowledge: Religion and Diplomacy, simply because I have an average INT score. That makes little sense to me, given how churches tend to operate.

5e fixed this in part by making skills background based as well. It 'breaks the mold' of being forced into a skill structure that is severely limited off class. What I do for a job should not be who I am. This should be reflected in the game's modern design, otherwise, it misses the point.