Raniel Kavilion's page

Nefreet wrote:

A Necromantic version of Rhapsodic College Dropout might have wrote:

I know the topic of animal abuse has been discussed in length on the forums, but I just don't see how a druid (especially one with a good alignment) should be allowed to tame wild animals and drag them with him to the ends of the earth just to watch them suffer and die. At least my minions don't have a soul, don't feel pain, and certainly don't need to be "pushed" against their will.

Actually, that's why Gormheir doesn't name his riding gecko, and uses it like expendable cover. He sees it as expendable as the cow that was his dinner last night. If he didn't he would never take it into combat, because if he cared about it, that would just be cruel.

Hah, I like Gormheir. Of course the first thing that comes to mind is that Living Greyhawk module that had the PCs going to the Beastlands to participate in some kind of pan-Dimensional games. The former animal companions, familiars, and mounts of all the characters (yes ALL of them, from Sir Barksley the First to Barksalot the 558th) confronted the PCs in front of the very powerful, very human-unfriendly greater powers about what murderers and abusers the PCs were for taking the off and getting them killed. It was a load of fun, at least for the one PC who had to that point never gotten an animal companion/familiar/mount killed.

The best example in fiction I've seen is the Deed of Paksnarrion by Elizabeth Moon (Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold). It follows Paks as she goes from a mercenary, through training with a militant church, gets cast out of the church, and then becomes a Paly pretty much all on her own. It's a good read.

Skylancer4: You are correct but that doesn't stop people from trying...and trying...and trying...did I mention they keep trying that?

Hehehe

- Gauss

Ah, to them I would say, "Do or do not. There is no try!" And now, I'm off to talk to a small, wizened goblin about the finer uses of my Brilliant Energy bastard sword.

Lune wrote:

Ah, forgive me. I do not have access to the rules for it. You can safely ignore my last post.

I don't have it either, but the write-up for it was posed in another thread.

** spoiler omitted **

Yep, that's it. Now, it occurs to me that you don't have to put the bonus on every iterative. An eleventh level monk could use the three bonuses on his highest iteratives to give an even better chance of hitting or on his lowest to make them that much more likely to hit. Being able to boost your to hit where you need it does raise it a little more in my estimation. However, I'd still rather have a monk's robe in the same body slot.

Is it me or do people not 'get' the body wrap?

I suppose most of them are too busy complaining about monks to try and make use of a tool provided or dismiss them out of hand because it isn't [custom monk AMoF item].

Yeah, it's an item that is meant to let fighters be even better at unarmed strike. They want to really go nuts, a fighter could have an amulet of mighty fists with all weapon special abilities, and a body-wrap that is somewhere between +3 and +5 based on what DR the fighter wants to beat with his fists and the rest is other weapon special abilities. That way a fighter at 16th level could have all four of his attacks be enhanced between +3 and +5 and include between +7 and +9 in weapon special abilities. Good use of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. Take Weapon training in unarmed strike early and include duelist gloves, you'd seriously do some damage.

Monks on the other hand gives up that niftyness on half their flurry, and would never gain the full benefit with full attack, as their BAB caps at +15. Sure a fighter could be hurting if they were trying to two-weapon fight with fists. The monk would be going with the body-wrap to free up the neck slot for an amulet of natural armor, and be giving up the monk's robe. Not a good trade off, in my opinion.

So bottom-line, it looks like it is for the monk, but isn't really.

Body-wraps of Mighty Strike. For any Monk i'll play.

Nah, interferes with Monk's robes (would rather have the damage and ac boost), only affects half of your flurry with the +X (the only time you're really meeting the item's BAB requirements), and I would be happier if it went to +8 kinda like the bracers of armor.

I'd change the Body-wraps to be a vest/chest slot; the max +x to +8; the cost to 4,000 times the square of the plus (kinda like buying two similar magic weapons); and apply the +x to all attacks with unarmed strike or flurry. This would mean the monk could use an Amulet of Natural Armor, a Monk's Robe, and the Body-wraps of Mighty Strike. I would make it work only for monks or those with improved unarmed strike, not with natural weapons. This would remove the logic of setting the price for what is supposed to be a primarily monk item (AoMF) in line with the necessity of dealing with the 3+ natural weapon crowd. This way the monk could actually spend money like a two-weapon fighter and keep up damage wise. I realize that is "broken", but hey I'm crazy that way.

Edit: The whole mechanic of determining which half your strikes actually can deal with DR is something of a pain. Since you're only getting the +X to one strike at each BAB break, you're only beating DR with that one hit. Equally, the monk can only fully use the item with flurry, as he'll never get the +16 BAB attack just full attacking. That assumes someone doesn't point out that RAW focusing on BAB somehow means it doesn't work in flurry because "the monk's BAB isn't 'really' +X during a flurry, it is only 'pretending' to be +X."

If a lot of people are building, I suggest use core-only builds and non-core builds for those using non-core material - this will enlighten us over how classes have powered up with extra material.

11th level is fine, I would suggest also building at 6th too. These levels are in the 'sweet spot' where play is perhaps most challenging.

So two leagues. Core-only and Non-Core builds. I'd argue that we stick with Paizo stuff and not include 3rd party.

6th and 11th level builds to show the sweet spot of when folks should just have got their shtick together and just before things stray into the truly crazy.

I did think of one thing, I'd prefer Core Rulebook only as the whole point is about the mechanics of the classes. Adding more rules mechanics (feats, items, spells) would only mask the base problems.

Equally, this shouldn't be a winner take all. There should at least be acknowledge "best in combat", "best out of combat", "best alternate to damage (i.e. maneuvers)", and "Grand Champion (or best all-around)". Though I will say the best out of combat doesn't get to "contribute" to combat by slipping on his ring of invisibility and staying out of his teammates' way. Even if all you do is UMD a cure light wounds wand that keeps the frontliner up and allow the cleric to switch from healing to hitting, you've got to contribute to putting the enemy down.

Raniel Kavilion wrote:

Well, one of the issues that I've seen on having more than one person build the different classes is others then dismiss the efforts as "that isn't the class, it is your abilities to optimize." I felt that if one person did most of the heavy lifting and the rest helped proofread, there would be less room for such criticism.

Well not really, because one person can rig it, and one person might be good at optimizing one class but another.

The fairest way is to throw it open and challenge all-comers to make their builds and then pick the best. That way, somebody is bound to be able to make a decent optimized X, and somebody is able to make a decent optimized Y, and you can compare them.

I am a little concerned this would just make it a matter of who can optimize best instead of a showing how someone without system mastery would approach the different classes. You make good points, though. So I'll agree, we should make it an open competition.

Should we set it at 11th level, that being when full BAB classes get the third attack? The monk's flurry would also benefit acting as a BAB of 11 at that point. Using wealth by level guidelines, no item larger than 1/3 total wealth, though no larger than 1/4 would be preferred. 20 point buy for stats as that is the Pathfinder Society Standard.

That just leaves the circumstances of the test. There will be four existing party members looking for a fifth. A frontline fighter, a healing/buffing cleric, a wizard focused on control with some ability to buff (haste and maybe a GMW at the beginning of the day), and a rogue who has a maxed acrobatics to tumble into flank and go to town with sneak attack. Out of combat, the rogue scouts and disarms traps (yay 8 skill points), though a second scout for the wilderness/above ground adventures would be helpful. Other out of combat roles will also be looked at. Points for your build filling a second role, when a similar build doesn't consider out of combat roles.

The assumption will be these folks face CR appropriate encounters at roughly 0-4 encounters per day when travelling overland and a metric ton when dungeon delving. The party is looking to keep combat to a short quick 30 seconds of terror (aka 5 rounds). So contribution to combat is a must.

Anything I missed?

Raniel Kavilion wrote:

But you want to take my builds and do that yourself? More power to you!

I thought we agreed to only run the test at a certain level, 13th or 15 IIRC. You should remember we already had DPR numbers. I think you also should have handed the other characters builds off to other posters. I did volunteer to do the fighter. I still am volunteering. I also listed potential pitfalls up front. The monk has not bypassed any of them.

It also seems there was some confusion on what you were trying to prove. As an example building a fighter as a secondary fighter is not something that I would expect in a real game.

If you want to continue this we can, but you might need to restate your goals.

Well, one of the issues that I've seen on having more than one person build the different classes is others then dismiss the efforts as "that isn't the class, it is your abilities to optimize." I felt that if one person did most of the heavy lifting and the rest helped proofread, there would be less room for such criticism. Besides most of the hard work is done. Now it is a matter of correcting some mistakes made on my part.

As far as what I'm trying to prove, it is a question of can the monk contribute to a party. The secondary fighter issue is not about the Fighter fitting the role of being a secondary vs. primary fighter* than does the monk and his two-weapon fighting work. The monk's flurry of blows is two-weapon fighting. The devs are making decisions, building new rules items based on the "fairness" of how the monk's flurry stacks up against other two-weapon fighters. Statements have been made that monks at best compare to non-favored enemy fighting Rangers and non-smiting Paladins, and that comparison still doesn't see the monk coming out well.

As far as levels was concerned, I was aiming at capping it at 16th. Since I had to build past 1st, 6th, and 11th anyway, and the 11 to 16 stretch is around where most folks peter out, I figured I would run the numbers for each of those points to show the curve of the monk's performance as compared to the curve of the other classes' performances.

*On the issue of primary vs. secondary fighter, I'm not trying to water down the fighter to any level. I figured on making two-weapon fighters to match the monk's abilities of flurrying and having good AC. So I produced a sword and board and two-weapon fighter. It wasn't a matter of "bringing the fighter down" as replicating the basic attack mechanic. If the fighter is "gimped" becoming a two-weapon fighter, then maybe one of the problems with the monk is that he's a two-weapon fighter, even if the monk gets steadily increasing damage dice.

I really shouldn't borrow trouble, I've got enough already, but should I somehow include miss chance into the calculation? It seems it would factor across the board. Everyone would take an equal amount of reduction in their DPR.

I still haven't dealt too heavily with maneuvers beyond putting the line in on percent chance to succeed. Is that enough? After all, not everyone has maneuvers, though I originally set out to make sure everyone could at least do one maneuver well (aka Great X feat). I haven't really built a Maneuver Master monk or fighter from Core.

Thoughts.

Let's just look at the Strength Monk and Ranger first.

Monk's stats:
Str 18 (16 + 2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Ranger's stats:
Str 18 (16 +2), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9

Now if you have already fixed this somewhere and I and missed it, I apologize, but the Ranger is short one point. His Wis should be 14 and his Cha 8. This will improve his Will save by one and he won't later need to put a point there to get his highest level spells. Basically his stats should be identical to the Monk's.

Next you should switch his Con and Dex. If it is a good idea for the Monk, then it is a good idea for the Ranger. This will help him with Ref, AC and other things and, as he already get's more skill points than any other class here, he can easily afford to put his favored class bonus in hit points to make up for a little less Con.

As for the Fighter. If you want to put the favored class point in skills, that's fine. Just switch his stats around to be like this:
Str 16, Dex 16 (14+2), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8

For the two-weapon Fighter he should take the full two-weapon fighting chain of feats. He should still have extra feats for things like Iron Will and Toughness. For the sword-and-board Fighter he really should only take the first two-weapon fighting feat and ignore the rest. He has a shield for defence, he shouldn't try to go full shield and full two-weapon fighting. That is just too feat intensive. He should save some of his feats for defence since that should be what a sword-and-board Fighter is all about.

Finally, I didn't mean to suggest that you should do a different break down for comparisons between the builds. I only wanted to suggest that everyone try to compare apples-to-apples when doing their own comparisons. Sorry I phrased that badly.

I do appreciate that you put a lot of work into this. So I hope you will view the above as my attempt at constructive criticism and not just an attempt to dismiss your work.

I appreciate the criticism. It is necessary to this little endeavor. Without you guys pointing out outright mistakes like the Ranger's stats, or conceptual ones like the sword and board fighter's feat choices, I wouldn't be able to make this project produce results that are useable.

I like your logic on the Ranger's stats and will use it. I'm not sure why I didn't just replicate the stats from the offensive monk, particularly the Cha and Wis. The switch in dex and con was to give the Ranger more HP, though as you point out, he's got enough skill points that swinging the favored class bonus wouldn't matter.

One of the hard things to balance is seeing where things work in a logical manner, like the stats, and where they might stray the line into something only done by those with real system mastery. After all, the point was to try to build all of these PCs as someone new to the game would. The real problem is all my system mastery is borrowed. This is fine in that it is part of the point of the exercise. It hurts that I may not be going far enough to ensure all the characters are combat effective. So, I'm not skirting the line between combat-effective and optimized like I wanted.

Some of the problem may also come in running comprehensive enough numbers. I need to make sure I show the numbers relating to DR for example. Wraithstrike helped with the Medusa's Strike problem. The enlarged monk was one I spotted. I had extra gold when equipping the monk and figured "why not?". I then realized I should have a similar comparison, because if nothing else, the wizard was on hand to enlarge the other PCs in combat. But I figure it will take a while before I put this down and say "there! done! I ain't doing no more!"

Why is the Monk the only one being Enlarged? Wouldn't they all benefit from being large size?

Why is the Monk the only one with his favored class bonus in hit points? Why is the Monk the only one with the Toughness feat? You should be keeping these things the same across the board.

How many spells is the wizard and cleric casting on the Monk? Are the other characters getting an equal amount of love and attention from the spell casters?

If you want a fair comparison, you should try to build them as close to the same as possible. The two-weapon Ranger should have the exact same stats as the offensive Monk. The two-weapon Fighter should have the bare minimum dex for two-weapon fighting feats and then pump Str. Although a finesse two-weapon Fighter seems reasonable too, but then it should be compared to the finesse Monk, not the strength Monk.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that your Monk is super optimized, but it is definitely more optimized than any of the competition.

The monk isn't the only one being enlarged. I've enlarged the barbar, and will be enlarging the ranger and sword and board fighter, as well. The Wis/Dex monk, the dex monk, and the two-weapon fighter are dex based, so they'd take a neg one to dex (their to hit stat), and a neg one to hit, in order to gain a +1 to str and a size category larger damage. I've yet to decide if it would be worth these three weapon finessers time to be enlarged. It should come out positive, just something in my gut said "no." I'll run the numbers and see if that helps.

I put the barbar's favored class into hit points and should probably get Toughness because he relies on HP more than AC. I focused on getting everyone the feats that would help them deal damage first off (e.g. weapon finesse for dex focused, two-weapon rend, etc). The sword and board fighter would have to forgo something to wedge toughness in. The others could get it, but I wasn't as worried since they had Con 14 and d10's for hit dice. I guess if you could convince me that a significant percentage of fighters will automatically take Toughness, as in pick in favor of Combat Feats, I'd be willing to rotate it in.

I got the impression that a good Con (14) and D10's was satisfactory and not at all "gimpy." The other impression I got was that D8's were "gimpy". I'd have to sacrifice else where to get a 14 Con, so Favored Class AND Toughness. Truth be told, with the Fighters, they can't really compete skill point wise anyway. I guess being happy with the three (plus one for human) would be fine and I could put the favored class point in HP. Though when I do, I refuse to even acknowledge any whinging about "why does the fighter only get 3 skill points and not 4 like the monk." Seriously.

Besides, I got the impression the monk was pretty much "damned if I do, damned if I don't." 4 skills is knocked because it isn't the Ranger's 6 or the Rogue's 8. Nor does the monk's skill list include a few key skills, like Knowledge (Dungeoneering). The Monk's D8's are deemed far inferior to the Ranger and Fighter's d10's and the Barbar's d12. So if I go up one way, I'm missing shoring up in the other. Even with Toughness, the monk is still using a valuable resource to equal his comrades in arms, not exceed them.

As far as spells are concerned, I've tried to limit what was available. I should have put in the notes what each PC gets. I include an appropriate level Pearl of Power if I'm expecting the wizard or cleric to provide a buff. I'll have to look, but I believe I had the Dex/Wis monk receive Greater Magic Weapon on his fists 11th. Beyond that, in combat spells are not assumed but can be extrapolated based on the +1 Attack, +1 Hit, and +1 damage lines.

The two-weapon ranger is all strength no dex, since he is qualifying for twf feat chain using combat style. The two-weapon fighter is all dex no strength and finessing, like the Dex monk. The sword and board fighter was a balance of strength and dex, to qualify for the twf feats organically (i.e. not with a dex belt), like the Dex/Wis (or "Maneuver") monk. The sword and board fighter and dex/wis monk raised one stat by level (dex), while raising the other (str or wis) by stat item. That mostly came out of my belief that relying on magic items to satisfy requirements is optimizing. My thinking in each build was "what do I want this one to do?". I wasn't thinking "okay, I've built an all strength monk, now I have to build an all strength melee." The only "thought" was that when it came to feats, the monk gets twf, itwf, gtwf, and double slice, so each of my twf full BAB classes should do the same. I didn't run the DPR numbers and then pick the most damaging combination (e.g. forgoing gtwf for two-weapon rend). However, you're at least the third person to complain that pushing dex hurts the fighter, so I will be changing it.

I wasn't setting out to force the fighters into a MAD situation. I wasn't trying to "gimp" or bring down the fighter. I was trying to make decisions without the benefit of advice, optimization boards, or build guides. The decision to balance strength and dex was one honestly come by and not an "anti-optimization" or "gimp" attempt. The decision on the fighters' stats was different than my decision not to limit the magic weapons to +1 and go energy abilities the rest of the way, and rely on Greater Magic Weapon to get a higher +X weapon. The GMW decision WAS an "anti-optimization" decision, as I feel this is not something the majority of players would do naturally, especially since a +X from GMW doesn't act like the +Y from a +Y weapon.

The other methodological change I'll be making is the way I handle DR. I'll show everyone beat DR with one weapon, and with two weapons (except for the barbar cause he's got just the one weapon). I will also show everyone failing to beat DR. Those three lines should give an even approach to the test.

As far as seperate comparisions, I won't do it. It has eaten enough time getting to this point. If folks can't look at the table and chose to see just the Ranger versus the Str Monk, or just the Dex monk versus the two-weapon fighter, that is on them. The data is there. If someone wants to get mad that data is presented all at once, I'm sure they would just find a reason to get mad if I produced 5 or more documents separating out the data into "comparable" builds.

I also noticed upstream someone mentioned something about these being run in games. I took that to mean 5 built PCs with actual players at an actual table rolling dice against CR appropriate encounters. That is playtesting. If I don't have time to sort out data that is coming from one DPR calculator, I sure don't have the time to run seven iterations of a game of five PCs at the benchmarks of 1st, 6th, 11th, and 16th. I just don't have the time to do meaningful data sets. And no, once each is not a meaningful data set. Try more like three times each, which would be 84 encounters, to account for the randomization of rolling dice. And let's face it running each PC with his four party members through three similar encounters at each of the benchmarks (7 PCs x 3 encounters x 4 levels) would be at the low end. How many times have folks berrated the Mythbusters for "only" doing 3, or 5, or 7 data points per test. But you want to take my builds and do that yourself? More power to you!

Raniel Kavilion wrote:

I will also note, I'm still working out the fight protocol. How often does the cleric or wizard buff.? I'm assuming they have at least one Align Weapon or GMW to help out. Do they have two? Can we assume quickened so that overcoming DR with a minutes per level spell is online as early as the first round? If you look at the DPR table, you will note that in most cases, the lower DPR comes because only one weapon is assumed to be Good aligned at 11th level. The DPR's of the 6th level folks are all in line. Hell, all the monks totally suck until they use cold iron kamas, and even then don't rock. At 11th, the monk is able to devote 1/3 of his WBL to a +2 Holy AoMF. This helps, if they ran into materials only, they suck. It isn't till "retirement" (aka 16th) that a monk can rely on a +3 Holy AoMF to pretty much ignore needingother weapons.

I think it depends on how many enemies they are facing, and the threat level of the enemies. It the party has the numbers then opening up with haste might help. The cleric, if he is made for combat, might not even buff, and just wade into combat. If the numbers are highly against the party the cleric might drop a summon monster spell. The wizard/sorcerer then caste haste on everyone.

These are just examples though. Sometimes they might not use any spells at all.

Well, I added the +1 hit, +1 damage, and +1 attack lines in addition to the straight DPR so that folks could see how things like haste (+1 attack, +1 hit) or bard's inspire courage (+x hit, +x damage) affect the numbers. My real concern was how quickly could DR defeating spells and effects come online and with two weapons would it be reasonable to show DPR for one and/or both weapons. I've decided to show the affects of DR by showing each PC defeating DR completely, not defeating DR at all, and only having one weapon defeat DR. That should be fair. I'll do DR 10 for now. I might do DR 5 and 15 as I have free time.

EDIT: I am also not sure if going straight +x weapons is "fair" for the test. Since I included +2 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, it seems only fair to consider the possibility of +1 weapons with elemental damagers and having the wizard using GMW on the primary weapon, since it can be an "all day" spell. However, I also wonder if this is too optimized for the noob to think of on his own.

Not exactly, Raniel. You can easily have a fighter start with the following ability scores (in a 20-point buy):

Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 13 (3 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), and Cha 10 (0 pts).

Put your stat increase in Dex and you wind up with Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, and Cha 10. Okay, now you are two-weapon fighting with excellent strength. Put four of your ability level-ups in Str and one in Dex.

To get Improved Two-Weapon (Dex 17, BAB +6), you need a belt of dexterity +2, which you can easily have at 6th level (16,000 gp WBL).

To get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 19, BAB +11), you need a belt of dexterity +4, which (once again), you can easily have at 11th level (82,000 WBL).

By 16th level, with a belt of physical might +6 (Str/Dex), you are looking at ability scores of Str 26, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, and Cha 10. And you still have 225,000 gp left to spend.

Too bad that Pathfinder consolidated all the physical stat boosters into belts, because it would be a LOT cheaper to get gloves of dexterity (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) and a belt of strength (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) instead of buying a single belt of physical might (+2 for 10,000; +4 for 40,000; +6 for 90,000).

Luckily, if you have a wizard or sorcerer or cleric in the party, they can make you gloves of dexterity! With that option, you could be looking at this:

6th level: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 8,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +2, leaving you with 8,000 gp left over.

11th level: Str 22, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 32,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +4, leaving you with 50,000 gp left over.

MA

I will admit that personally, I'm leery of relying on spells or dex item to qualify for a feat that is part of the core build. That being said, someone else (Wraithstrike, I think) pointed out that dispelling a stat item really was an edge case and serious metagaming by the GM. I could go with this and it will bring the sword and board fighter's numbers up.

The fact that a Belt of Physical Might would have to wait till a tier higher was one reason I was building the way I did. After all, I figure sinking 1/3 of your wealth into a single item is unrealistic. And asking for that item to be suppressed.

I agree with the idea for Gloves of Dex. Though that would mean no Duelist Gloves. Though neither is viable in this restricted environment as neither is strictly speaking Core. But I play a "mage-smith" in an ongoing Kingmaker campaign and I am set up to make the party all kinds of things. Though the npcs are looking askance at the scrawny, strength 10 wizard working a forge.

So, if everyone feels Master Aramis' stat layout is more fair (and I take it from Dabbler's responses above he at least agrees), then I'll switch to those. Though give me by the weekend to update the doc and DPR table. Also, I'll add in at least three lines for each group. That would be beats DR 10 with both weapons, beats DR 10 with one, doesn't beat DR 10.

In a week or two, I might add in the same for DR 5 for the APL 6 group and DR 15 for the 11th and 16th groups. We'll see how my time works out for that. Though, with the way my wife is glaring at me, I wouldn't hold your breath!

EDIT: the above should read, I WILL change to the above stat layout. Also "sinking MORE than 1/3 of your wealth" 1/3 of the WBL was the cap I put on spending.

I don't think giving the monk a high strength was a bad idea, but giving the fighter a low strength for TWF was a bad idea. Those fighters in the DPR thread were optimized, but not best possible which make them reasonable for an actual game. I think the level 10 TWF'ing fighter still did at least 50 DPR. Don't quote me on that, so I would expect the level 11 version to do more. He should have at least done a good deal more than 34 DPR. The new guy would have also had weapon finesse if he was going for a dex build or just only went for minimum dex, and boosted strength. Even most new people will dump int and or charisma for a fighter. At least I did when I was new so have my new players.

As I see it there are two ways to deal with Strength and Dex for a two-weapon fighter. First you go whole hog with one (both level bumps and enhancement bonus) with just enough of the other to do what you need. This could be say a 15 dex to get TWF and accept you are not getting itwf, gtwf, or two weapon rend. Or it could be say 14 Strength, just enough to have a +2 to damage and weapon finesse. The two-sword fighter went with this option.

You could also raise one with level bumps and the other with a stat item. This is not too different from the MAD of a traditional monk. Wisdom and Dex get moved up together. I went with this route with the first iteration of the sword and board fighter. The second sword and board fighter went with more Strength than dex, but enough dex to qualify for the entire twf feat chain.

In the second case you run into the issue of wealth by level. How much can you justify throwing at a stat item, when you also need weapons, armor, and other gear?

On the issue of stat dumping, that was a bit of a tricky one for me. I'm fine with stat dumping. I've played with enough GM's and other players who look on it askance. In one case, the GM's six page background document and player's instructions included the line (paraphrasing) "You're heroes. Heroes are leaders. Leaders don't have a combined Int/Wis/Cha of less than 30." So, can we say that a new player will immediately dump one or more stats as low as they will go? If you guys think so, fine, I'll redo the stats.

I will also note, I'm still working out the fight protocol. How often does the cleric or wizard buff.? I'm assuming they have at least one Align Weapon or GMW to help out. Do they have two? Can we assume quickened so that overcoming DR with a minutes per level spell is online as early as the first round? If you look at the DPR table, you will note that in most cases, the lower DPR comes because only one weapon is assumed to be Good aligned at 11th level. The DPR's of the 6th level folks are all in line. Hell, all the monks totally suck until they use cold iron kamas, and even then don't rock. At 11th, the monk is able to devote 1/3 of his WBL to a +2 Holy AoMF. This helps, if they ran into materials only, they suck. It isn't till "retirement" (aka 16th) that a monk can rely on a +3 Holy AoMF to pretty much ignore needingother weapons.

I have it working, and it looks better than I thought it would.

Here is the link

To the right side of the document you will see a few blocks
DC for Stunning Fist-This is where put in the save needed to resist being stunned.

Save of Monster-This is where you put the monster's save modifer

Monster Roll needed-The document calculates this. As an example if the monk's DC for Stunning Fist is an 18, and the monster has a 14 then the document will tell you that the monster needs to roll a 4.

Chance for Success-This is the monk's actual chance for the monster to fail the save. The higher the better for the monk.

With that said the monk's DPR is about 61.9 without Medusa's Wrath, and 69.1 with it. I feet giving you 8 DPR is not bad. Now if the monk were able to use wisdom to attack this feat would be much better since the modifier to attack would also increase the chance of this feat coming into play, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I did set it up so others can download it. Sometime's google's "share" ability does not play nice. If you can't download it just post something here, and I will look into it when I get off work. Yeah I know, working on the weekend sucks.

Thanks, this will help lots. It will be a few days before I go through and correct all the numbers. Got something like 100 pages to read by Wednesday and another 100 due by Thursday.

I'll do like any good op-ed, I'll open with my conclusion for those that don't feel like reading all the way down. This test wasn't about slotting the monk into the primary fighter position. Thus I did not compare the monk to primary fighters (like say the max strength, two-hand power attacker with big weapon). I tried to compare him to folks who two-weapon fight because that is what the monk does with his flurry. I did not set out to "gimp" any one or "optimize" anyone. I tried to make choices from the Core Rulebook from the stats, feats, skills, and equipment that made sense for a secondary fighter, who would also help the rogue scout, or scout if the rogue focused their skill-monkeyishness on something other than stealth and acrobatics and climb.

I do find it interesting that I equated "melee" with "need strength" and got accused of optimizing the monk for having a high melee build. I did the exact same thing with the Ranger and there are no complaints there. Both get TWF for free and so don't need dex to get the feats. The fighters have to qualify for TWF, so they need dex. A bit MAD, but I also built a MAD monk who sucks DPR wise, and there were no complaints there. So go figure. I don't see it as unreasonable for a new player to think "i want two-weapon fighting. I need dex." I also don't see it as unreasonable for the same person to think "I want to hit things, I need strength, I don't need dex because I get two-weapon fighting for free," whether he is looking at the Ranger or the Monk.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere. I do recall saying that an un-optimized fighter can still function as a fighter, while an unoptimized monk can't function as a monk, but that's a very different thing to say. Sure a super-optimized monk can outfight a gimped fighter.

It was one of the "monk sucks" or "do you hate the monk as much as me" and I think (though don't quote me on it) that it was Ashiel that made the claim more than once that a fighter or a ranger could two-weapon fight and have better DPR and as good if not better AC than a monk.

But unless you put equal levels of optimization in, you basically aren't proving anything. All this 'doing it myself to make it fair' is going to result in accusations you are rigging the numbers to make the monk look better than he is.

I'm not really trying to optimize either side. That was kind of the point. In my mind, I'm trying to fill the same roll, a secondary melee, good DPR (or as good as you can get twf), good AC, with scouting ability. The scout part is at least good enough to see traps, even if he can't bypass them. I see a scout as someone who can see trouble long before trouble finds the party. The scout gives the party time to prepare for said trouble, or find a way around it. Though in a dungeon, against a trap, that tends to be bull through or go home if you don't have disable device.

Why is it the monk's game? The object of a combat class is to hit their target and do damage to it, or otherwise be able to have a substantive effect on the enemy.

Why is it anybody's game? I know everyone comes back with "don't get us wrong, we love the monk, but . . ." I see the but as it should be, everything before it is negated. I get the sense the monk really shouldn't/can't be played. I particularly find it interesting that I'm stating out what amounts to a secondary fighter, I'm not trying to optimize either monks or his competition for the fifth slot in a party, and yet there are cries of "foul" "no fair!" and "gimped fighter".

This was using Core Rulebook only. It struck me as odd that I'm trying to fill the secondary fighter role and getting beat up for not producing primary fighters, something everyone on these boards say the monk has no chance in hell of being (see below).

Wrong! Take a dex of 12 (or 14 absolute max) with your non-TWFing fighter. Wear full plate. Let the armour training rack up, and by the time you have enough, you switch from a belt of giant strength to a belt of physical power to boost dex as well. By high level, it'll be a belt of physical perfection, and that armour training will really count.

Sure, that's the primary fighter. As you and others have said, the monk is not a primary fighter. Hell, you've even said the monk versus the primary fighter negates the monk's worth.

From "keeping up with the monk's ac":

A monk built right can do some damage, but his chances to hit lag so far behind that compared to the fighter or barbarian he may as well not be there.

But you're idea for a fighter is already assumed to be in the party of four. The question is what is the fifth. I'm trying to build a secondary melee, to provide flanks for the fighter or rogue (also in the party), and do some damage himself. This is about what someone who is not an optimizer would do with the Core Rulebook and the mandate "make a secondary melee," after of course explaining what a secondary melee was.

You try that same "wait till 16 to get good dex" and you won't have a twf good ac fighter. You'll just have two primary fighters. That's fine. Do that. But there is more than one style for the fighter. High strength, two-handed power-attacking with a greatsword, full-plate-wearing fighter. The two-weapon fighter and the sword-and-board fighter are options. Sure they don't hit the high water mark of the two-hander, but they are options. I did my best to make choices that fit those two styles of combat as I see them as good secondary fighters to that high DPR zweihander.

Since the test assumed most campaigns wash up between 13 and 16, I saw 16 as retirement. I didn't assume 16 was where the fighter would finally start qualifying for the feats that were key to the build (itwf, gtwf, double slice, tw rend). I also didn't figure waiting till 16 for good AC was viable either. So pumping Strength and ignoring Dex until your wealth by level is high enough to afford the Belt of Physical Might or the Belt of Physical Perfection seemed a non-starter for two-weapon fighters.

Hell half the reason the DPR tables show folks losing to "Genero" is because he could hit their AC with more DPR than they could hit his. With the back up of a healer (assumed part of the party), most of these builds would win the combat. I calculated DPR as if the PC was the only one hitting Genero because you need a benchmark for each build to compare them. Saying, "well I was present when the primary fighter kept alive by the healer beat down Genero" could be applied to all of them, and tell you nothing.

You aren't making sense. You want the fighter to beat the monk at the monk's game when you are slotting the fighter into the fighter's place in the party? Or are you asking can who the party would pick for a fifth member?

Either way, build the fighter to BE a fighter. Build the monk to BE a monk. THEN compare what they can offer a party.

No, there is already a primary fighter (aka the pump the strength, non-twf as you describe above). The party also has the other three basic slots filled, cleric, wizard, and rogue. They could survive on their own without any more help, mostly. The APL/CR system assumes a party of four to five. The question is who do you slot into that fifth slot? There are many options.

I see the monk as a secondary fighter. He does melee, because of flurry of blows. Ranged not so much, because shuriken have a sucky range. You want core and good range? Then you go an archer. You get a back up scout. Monk has good movement, stealth and perception as class skills. He and the rogue could scout. Two perception checks to make sure you don't miss anything. Two high stealth checks to make sure you don't get spotted. Two party members to back each other up and flank should you somehow trip an encounter. Two guys with acrobatics so you can tumble passed the blockers and make it back to the party. The monk can either stay with the rogue if the monsters have a better move rate, or he can run back and warn the party to get ready if the rogue can stay ahead of the monsters. All good.

But as I said above, I started this because there were enough posts about how the monk has no role, isn't a anything (scout, secondary fighter, tank, cork, melee, ranged, out of combat multiplier, in combat multiplier) other than a warm body. There were enough posts about how the fighter could better AC than the monk and the fighter could hit while the monk could miss. I wondered if this was true. It turns out that if you remember you don't need more than a point or two of Dex mod because you already get TWF for free, yes you can hit.

The real sticker is how someone feels about Wisdom. It is needed for Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, and Ki pool. The only one of the three that is really viable is Ki pool. Of course, that is not something a new player would see. So each of my builds includes the monk getting the Headband of Inspired Wisdom to pump Wisdom. I did focus on strength for more hit and damage, because I don't think it unreasonable to think a new player would focus on the stat that directly affects damage. I did include the Dex focused and Wisdom focused monks in the second document Maneuver Monk. So you get all four possible ideas (max Str, Dex, or Wis, or go Dex/Wis). Though I haven't added the Wisdom monk to the DPR table yet.

Ok, so I haven't looked at the numbers in a while until now, and I have to say, the fighters numbers are awful. You almost couldn't build a worse fighter if that was your intention to do so. Having Strength, Dexterity and Constitution all roughly the same number is a horrible decision when it comes to designing a character. The fighters you built are hands down some of the worse character builds I've ever seen.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're trying to compare builds and you've got one guy pumping strength through the rough, while everyone else is holding back in the builds.

I'm looking at your DPR numbers and I can't help but think there is something very wrong when the Monk is doing almost double the damage of every other class you built. Then I look at the numbers for the classes, and I see why. You've got a fairly powerful Monk build, but horrible builds for the other classes.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wizard buffed himself could out fight some of the classes you've built.

Well, one of the reasons I did this thread was because I've seen posts that basically state, "the fighter can be unoptimized AND out damage the monk AND have a better AC." You could build a fighter much like the barbarian, all strength, no dex, two-hand power attack with something big. But that isn't beating the monk at his own game. You want to two-weapon fight AND have a good AC, you need dex to get the feats and have Armor Training be something other than a way to move in heavy armor. After all, it doesn't do you much good to have full plate with a max dex of 5 and only have a dex of 0 or 1. Might as well not have armor training.

Since the point was to slot a monk or its replacement into an existing party, the assumption was the monk didn't have to compete against an optimized damage dealing fighter. The monk has to be relevant, and do his shtick better than the "better than the monk" crowd.

Alright, I've updated the DPR table using tejon's DPR calculator 2.03. I've also included the DR for the monsters. DR starts to show up at 6th. It was DR 10 in each case. I might, if you ask real nice, research about what level DR 15 shows up and include that on the appropriate table, as well as include DR 5 on the 6 and 11 tables.

Where it was relevant, I've included the line for the PC beating DR and failing to beat DR. For instance, the Offensive Monk has an Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 Holy that allows him to beat the DR 10/good that Genero has. I've also included lines like Power Attack/No Power Attack, as the higher CR AC has a thin margin for allowing a PC to drop -5 on the to hit, even if it brings a +10 to damage.

Any questions?

Oh, and here are the Monk by the Numbers doc, and the Dex based monk doc.

As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?

Well, yes and no. The calculator does put out the numbers for gaining an extra attack. This could be from anything, ki point, haste, speed weapon, and boots of speed, just to name a few. Just add the value on to the existing DPR to find out what happens when you get one more attack.

The test assumes an iconic group of four (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue). This configuration means there will be haste on the table, since the idea is to have the fighter and the fifth PC be the main attackers, with the cleric and rogue backing up. The wizard would be buffing and dropping fireballs (or whatever is appropriate). So the question comes down to who that fifth player is going to be. So, haste is expected and I've included the number for adding an extra attack. The monk just happens to be able to get it on his own with ki.

I also included the ki pool points in the Monk by the Numbers document. it is under special abilities. I generally factor ki usage as:
5 rounds per combat
Rd 1 Ki point for extra move to get to the fight
Rd 2 - 4 Ki point for extra attack
Rd 5 ki point as needed (extra AC, Attack, move)
4 combats per day = 20 ki points
1 ki point for Ki pool (eg. magic, lawful, adamantine)
So, need a total of 21 Ki
By 16th should have:
8 (1/2 level)
5 - 6 (Wisdom mod, could be higher)
2 (Extra Ki Feat)
15 - 16 total (or 3 of 4 fights). You could skip what appears to be the mook fight to save Ki points. You could also hold back one or two rounds each fight to see if you need the ki to win. But in the end by 16th you should be using your ki at least 3 out of the five rounds. I'd suggest the first three rounds of flurrying. This should shorten the fight.

Raniel Kavilion wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

*hopes he didn't just shoot his computer*

Naw, I like this conversation.

DR X/-- was suggested to generically represent "What happens if the PC doesn't bypass the DR." The formula that incorporates DR is SUM(X)*(Y-Z)+C*SUM(X)*Y where X is the % chance for each hit, Y is Damage, Z is the DR, and C is the crit-chance.

Medusa's Wrath, assuming you do it off Stunning Fist, goes like this: +X1*A*((X1+X2)*(Y-Z)+C*(X1+X2)*Y), where A is the chance for the creature to fail the save (number after the letter is means to imply subscript, which this forum does not support). Additionally, you have to factoring the %chance of the debuff to AC from Stunning Fist as well. Monk damage calcs can very easily require page-long formula... :/

As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?

No, right now it isn't my formula. My excel-fu is not strong. I've borrowed tejon's dpr calculator v2.03. So I've just left out the Medusa's Wrath until someone with better skills can figure out how to alter the calculator with the new and improved medusa's wrath calculator.

Now, what I did do was calculate DPR for the classes with DR as a universal negative to damage. So there are now two rows for each PC, one with DR and one without, to show them overcoming DR. It took some time, but I figure that makes the numbers more balanced. If the PC cannot penetrate DR, I've shown that as a flat 0 DPR and taking 100 rounds to defeat Genero. If they automatically overcome DR, say because they have a +3 or higher weapon, then that is the only line I've shown.

I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

I did not account for Medusa's Wrath, but the person has to have a certain condition for it work. The DC is 18. A good save for a CR 11 monster is +14(20%) and a poor save is a +10(40%) chance

So those extra to attacks should go like this.
24.5 x .7=17.15
17.15x.2(chance of the monster being stunned) x2=Another 6.86 DPR=68ish
17.15x.4(chance of the monster being stunned)x2=Another 13.92 DPR=67ish DPR

When I look at the code it said this [IF(AND(B11,(E2>9)),(2*K8)))]
K8 is the first attack being used again if Medusa's Wrath was selected, but the program does not account for the chance of failure. If you choose it the program assumes that the feat always works(the person is stunned etc...), but for an accurate number you should account for the chance of success. In short on a round where Medusa's wrath is active you should average that number, but since that feat will not always be in play you must account for that also.

Thanks for this. This seems a more reasonable DPR. Now if you could tell me how to figure on DR/-, I'd really appreciate it.

Now bed. Really. No more interwebs.

A dispel magic can take out any item so I never account for it mostly because it does not happen in most games. No point in worrying about corner cases, and if every caster is going for a certain item he is probably metagaming since he has no way to know what that belt knows in most situations. Why not dispel the sword or your boots, or your cloak of protection, or the wizard's stuff since he will most likely cause more trouble than a fighter anyway.

I highly dislike combat expertise, and it does not have a good standing on the boards anyway, unless your GM uses mostly humanoid monsters so your combat maneuvers have a chance to work. I would go for the higher save.

Point. I mostly went with the Combat Maneuver so there was a comparison with the Dex/Wis monk who was supposed to be good at maneuvers and stunning fist because he wasn't good at hitting (or something like that, it is too late and I've had too little sleep to remember the argument correctly). The other factor I counted on was having something decent to do with a standard attack. This is why so many of my builds has vital strike. The problem being what do you do when you've only got the one action. Swing away and vital strike. Now you're close enough, go to town with a full attack.

Combat expertise came to me as a possible way into Greater Trip. Of course, four+ legged creatures and huge+ monsters (unless you were large) would be tough/undoable. But I've mostly seen humanoid monsters in play, especially organized play. But the utility of maneuvers is really situationally dependent.

Edit: now off to bed. Get to sleep in tomorrow, Yay! Have to take care of sick kid tomorrow. Booo (at least that she is sick poor dear, not that I have to take care of her).

Well, the Fighter can take Weapon Finesse early on, and retrain that into a different feat once his Strength is higher than dex.

The other option is to have Str 17 Dex 15 and bump it twice as he levels up instead.

Yeah, I was figuring on changing it to the 15 Str 17 Dex, going str all the way on level bumps. I guess I'll leave out the Greater Two-weapon fighting. And truth be told, I forgot about retraining, but then it would only be important where I was going Dex all the way like the original build.

When TWF'ing you only get your dex up as high as you need to take the feats you need, then you put everything into strength. The fighter should go no higher than a 17 dex for ITWF. If he wants to go for GTWF he can, but that can wait until later. By putting those point of dex into strength he ups his to-hit and damage.

True. I was torn on how to get that and get the feats early enough to be competitive. I went with a high strength early, while having the ability to get to 17 with stat items followed by level bumps. So for a few levels, the fighter risks loosing his feat to a dispel magic.

But, how much do you sacrifice Strength at character creation to get Dex as close to 17 as possible? Do you accept that you loose half you attacks to a well timed dispel magic that takes out your Belt of Dex? The is higher in dex than necessary because I wasn't sure where to draw that line. I guess I could drop Strength in the beginning, and the use all my level bumps and stat boost items to get strength back up as I level. That should do the trick.

Say
Str 15 Dex 17 (15 + 2 race) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 7

or maybe
Str 14 Dex 17 (15 +2 race) Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7

Depending on what you prefer, being able to qualify for Combat Expertise (more AC and Imp/Greater Trip) or a higher will save.

Then go Strength all the way with level bumps and stat boost items.

Edit: I also considered Weapon Finesse since I was so focused on Dex, but wasn't sure where to fit it in or what to bump till later.

Edit 2: Also you'd need 19 Dex for Greater Two-weapon fighting. I guess you could leave off the third iterative attack. It does have a low chance to hit. Still low is better than no, and the monk is getting it for free. Late, at 15 rather than 11th, but still free.

Bestiary 1 has plenty of critters with DR in it...

Yes it does. And it has plenty of CR 6 criters to use a single critter against an APL 6 party, and CR 11 for 11, and so on. And at each level, I created a generic monster that was based off the most common critter features. And IIRC, from 6 on up, my "Genero" has had DR. He just hasn't had DR/-. And besides the issue is how to alter the DPR calculations to take into account DR you can't beat short of doing lots of damage. I know it isn't a straight -X per swing from the DPR, because not all swings will land and not all swings will do average or lower damage. Some hits will actually be crits and do loads of damage. But how does DR alter the DPR equation. Haven't a clue.

As luck would have it, at 11 and 16, just about 100% of the folks had a way around DR, either with a +3 weapon, the align weapon spell (these PC's are part of a party with a wizard AND a cleric), or the right material. After all, the DR has tended to be /good, /good or cold iron, or just /cold iron. So no real worries there. Yes there is no difference between DR/- and DR/cold iron when you don't have a +3 weapon OR a cold iron weapon. But my guys were either all effected, or were all not affected. Though I'll have to go back and double check that statement to be 100% sure.

I don't think another D8 is going to give you another 39 points of DPR.

The extra D8 assuming all the attacks hit push you up to around 120, but since all of those attack are not hitting. It does push you up to 61.69.

Look at it another way. You now average about 24.5 if you hit before crits come into play.

Your chances to hit are .7, .7, .45, .45 ,.2
24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .2=4.9

DPR=61.25(not including a chance for crits.)
Even with crits factored in I don't see it jumping up 20 points.

We may need a 3rd person if we are this far apart on the numbers.

The DPR calculator also factors in the effect of Medusa's Wrath, which is taken by the monk as the Level 10 bonus feat, as well as factoring in for crits. Here are my numbers.

Here is the DPR calculation I have for my sword and board fighter at 11th level against an AC 25 (for CR 11).

With the fighter having:
+11 BAB
+3 Str Mod
+3 Longsword (1d8 19-20)
+1 Bashing heavy shield (1d8, 20)
+2 Weapon training with heavy blades
+1 Weapon training with close weapons
-2 Two weapon fighting
Improved two weapon fighting so base 9/9/4/4/-1. Total should be. +17/+14/+12/+9/+7. So I've goofed here as well. Power attack should then be -3 to hit for a +6 to damage. So that should be
14/11/9/6/4. Damage should be 1d8+3 (str) + 6 (power attack) +3 (magic weapon) +2 weapon training or 1d8 +3 (str) +6 power attack + 1 magic + 1 weapon training. So 1d8 + 14 / 1d8 + 11

Fighter (sword and board) 11:
===============================================
11th Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +5; Perception +17
Hp: 92 (10 + (6 x 10) + 22 Con)
AC: 29, touch 14, flat 25 (+4 Dex +5 Shield +10 Armor)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +7
==================================================
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft., 3/day, 5 min/flight
Melee: +3 Longsword +19 (1d8+8); +16 (1d8+14) with Power attack
Two-weapon: +3 longsword/+1 bashing heavy mithril shield bash +17/+14/+12/+9/+7 (1d8+8/1d8+5)
+14/+11/+9/+6/+4 (1d8+14/1d8+11) with power attack
Ranged: +1 composite longbow (Str +3) +17/+12/+7 (1d8+4)
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 21 (13 + 2 race +2 level +4 belt), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
BAB +11, CMB +14, CMD 29
Traits – Season to taste.
Feats –
Human – Power Attack
1st – Two-Weapon fighting
Fighter 1 – Improved Shield Bash
Fighter 2 – Weapon Focus (longsword)
3rd – Double Slice
Fighter 4 – Weapon Specialization (longsword)
4th – Stat bump (Dex)
5th – Shield Focus
Fighter 6 –Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th – Shield Slam
Fighter 8 – Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
8th – Stat bump (Dex)
9th – Greater Shield Focus
Fighter 10 – Iron Will
11th – Shield Master

Special Abilities: Bravery +3, armor training 3, weapon training (heavy blades, close) 2

You are not putting the levels in the chart so I am having a harder time figuring things out. That ranger also has overrun which could have been traded out for double slice, and Two Weapon Rend brings more DPR than GTWF. I am looking at the level 11 ranger currently.

The chart is in Excel. The levels are the tabs at the bottom. Unfortunately, Google Docs has altered this from an excel spreadsheet to the print preview version. The pages should be 1st Level PC DPR, 1st Level Genero DPR, 6th Level PC DPR, 6th Level Genero DPR, 11th Level PC DPR, 11th Level Genero DPR, 16th Level PC DPR and 16th Level Genero DPR. I'll go back over the document and see if I can't make it show a header or something.

CR 11 has an AC of 25

This should be the case for 11th level Genero.

+1 Keen Kukri +15/+10 (1d4+6/15-20/x2) and

. . +1 Keen Scimitar +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6/15-20/x2)

No favored bonus =28.88
flank with animal companion = 37

AC DPR=5.46
AC with flank=6.83

DPR 33.3 to 43.8
--------------------------------------
favored enemy bonus

+2
DPR=43.2
flank with animal companion 52.34

AC DPR=7.88
AC with flank=9.45

DPR 50.1 to 61.79
--------------------------------------------

+4=59.99
flank with animal companion 69.55

AC DPR=10.71
AC with flank= 12.5

DPR 70.7 to 82.05
-------------------------------------------
+6=78.39
flank with animal companion 87.75

AC DPR=13.97
AC with flank=15.96

DPR 82.36 to 103.71
--------------------------------------------------------

And I totally forgot to factor in the animal companion. This does change things somewhat. The ranger getting both a flanking bonus to his attacks, and "extra" attacks (aka the animal companion's set of attacks) definitely ups his DPR. Of course, the ranger wasn't really hurting. It just means at higher levels, he is far less reliant on his favored enemy bonus to up his DPR.

edit:A fighter using sword and board should be doing more than 34ish DPR at level 13 also.

edit2:I just found the build for the large monk. Before I do the maths I will say that 1d10 goes up to 2d8, not 3d8.

I am assuming you looked at the weapon chart in the equipment chapter and saw this:

2d8 1d10 3d8

That 2d8 to the left is for medium sized creatures. The 1d10 is for tiny creatures. The 3d8 is for large creatures.

The correct line follows.
Medium Tiny Large
1d10 1d6 2d8

No, this is a large monk wearing a monk's robe. So he is 2d8 for level 16 and then 3d8 for being a large "16th level" monk (or an 11th level monk in a monk's robe). Real damage multiplier that robe.

With that out of the way: level 11 large offensive monk

Melee: +2 Unarmed +18 (3d8+10), +15 (3d8+16) with Power Attack
Flurry +2 Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (3d8+10), +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 (3d8+16)
Ranged: Shruiken +8 (1d3+8), Flurry +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (1d3+8)
==================================================
Str 26 (16 + 2 race + 2 lvl + 4 belt +2 size), Dex 12 (14 -2 size), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (14 +2 head), Cha 8
BAB +8, CMB +20, CMD 35 (+4 CMB to bull rush and grapple, +4 CMD against bull rush and grapple)

+11 BAB for flurry
+8 strength mod
+2 AoMF
-1 size penalty
-2 FoB penalty

The flurry should be at +18 not +19

Thanks for the catch. I added on the large after the fact and forgot to add in the negative to hit. So I get 88.30 as a DPR including crits.

I have a DPR of 49.88

With his attacks doing 2d8+10 his average damage will be 19 per hit, and even if every attack hits he would only do 95 points of damage. Well that does not include crits, but that still makes me think the 102.45 you came up with is incorrect since I would most likely have to assume that every attack did hit, and for crits to even push him into the 100 DPR range. The monks from the DPR Olympics at level 10 certainly were not going to hit 100, even 60 DPR using the core book alone. I don't think a 40 point increase in damage is going to happen over 1 level.

Iiiiinteresting. You may want to incorporate how DR impacts the DPS. I'd do DR 0/-- and DR 5/-- at level 6, DR 5/-- and DR 10/-- at level 11, as well as DR 10/-- and DR 15/-- at level 16, simply because they'll cite that as a reason the monk can do well.

I'm not sure if the scope of your analysis applies only to unarmed Monks, but the Monk deals much more damage dual-wielding Masterwork Temple Swords even into level 6.

I limited myself to CRB only. I figured the CRB was the only book you could guarantee that a group, particularly a new group, would have. CRB was the only book that would most likely not need DM approval. At least the CRB wouldn't need approval beyond a DM's house rules ("I don't like monks, so no monks. Or elves." kind of situation). Since the Temple Sword is APG material, I didn't look at it.

Equally, I felt that the issue was about the core mechanics of the Monk class. Other sources for feats, equipment, etc, would only mask the mechanical issue. Archetypes have been created that appear to "shore up" the mechanical issues the monk suffers from. Equally, there is the feeling the monk needs to make use of his choices (feats, magic items, skills) in order to equal another class without out those choices. A monk has to take a feat to equal the baseline. The other classes take feats to rise above the baseline. So my question was "what is the baseline?"

Now, some of my "generic" monsters have DR, though not DR/-. I was not in this to optimize, assuming most players wouldn't know how to optimize on their own. With that said, I went with the highest +X weapon I could afford without sacrificing other items (especially AC) or violating the 1/3 rule (no one item may be more than 1/3 total wealth by level). So the higher we go, the more likely a PC is to defeat all DR except DR/- with their +X weapon. The more efficient use is to get a +1 weapon with loads of special abilities and then have the wizard or cleric cast Greater Magic Weapon to get the highest bonus they can. It won't beat DR, but then it will deal a lot of energy damage that ignores DR.

One of the things I'll have to figure out now that I have base DPR numbers, is how to show the effect of DR on DPR. Since DPR is based on average damage over a round, how does DR lower that? In some cases, I noted the character used an appropriate material to defeat DR. Equally, two of the creatures have DR/good. A little Bless Weapon action and you're all good, be it wand, scroll, oil or the like.

I'll also point out that I'm not sure there are enough monsters with DR/- to make that a good metric. Sure DR can hose a PC's DPR; however, there are ways around most forms of DR. If the PC has the gold and is smart, they'll have DR beating weapons. Of course, there is no functional difference between DR/- and a fighter facing DR/bludgeoning with nothing but piercing weapons. You just are not getting through without some help from your friends. This test assumes the help of a party. As long as material is covered somehow (silver weapons, +3 weapons, etc), align weapon can be cast (and is assumed to be an available spell in some form (scroll, wand, etc). So it just comes down to have the right damage types.

Another problem I have is figuring out how to show the issue of standard actions and surprise rounds. Who gets the jump on whom? Who has to move to the enemy to get the first swing, and give the enemy a full attack? The DPR tables shows the base number of rounds it would take to full attack and kill the other guy. However, this will be slightly different as you figure there is some moving to flank, moving to contact, and the like. How this will affect the total DPR of a combat is beyond me. Fortunately, many of these Rounds to dead are fractional. The fraction may be more or less than a standard attack, but they should be close enough to demonstrate:
Round 1) move to enemy, standard attack
Round 2) full
Round 3) full
Round 4) he's dead Jim

The statistic of Does Genero Win (Y/N) came from comparing the number of rounds it would take the PC to kill Genero versus the number of rounds for Genero to Kill the PC. Whoever had the lower number won, even if it was just a matter of .01. Granted that is based off of average rolls. Genero could have hot dice and the PC have cursed dice and the outcome would be different. For averages, this should work. Of course, I altered the layout so that folks could see the data clearly when they followed the link. Now each level is split between the PC's DPR and Genero's DPR, and that finale metric is no longer a calculation.

I've updated the Maneuver Monk that I built separately from the Monk by the numbers doc. The first build pushes Wisdom in an attempt to pump up the Stunning Fist. I even threw in the Jawbreaker feat chain to capitalize on a higher Stun DC. Thing is that DC still isn't reaching great heights as compared to Genero's Fort save. It is better than the more middle of the road Wis/Dex build I put together for the test. Also, the Wisdom focused Monk falls down on CMB, so he's less likely to get his maneuvers off if the enemy is particularly hard to hit CMD wise or the monk strays outside of trip and grapple.

I also built a Dex focused Maneuver Monk. He does much better in the to hit department (Weapon Finesse, though I still need to run the DPR. I'll add it to the DPR table),CMB (Agile Maneuvers ftw), and initiative, while staying up with the other builds (Dex/Wis and pure Wis) for AC and CMD as the numbers don't change too drastically.

Both the Dex and Wis based monks are tighter on money than the Wis/Dex monk, because they squeeze in two stat items where the Wis/Dex monk raises one state with level bumps and a weaker item, while raising the other stat with a stronger item. I feel the Dex/Wis monk is more inline with what folks think of when they think "the monk is MAD", and they're tossing in some way of raising Strength and possibly Constitution into the mix for more hit/damage and hp's. The Dex-focused, Wis-focused, and Str-focused monks do much better in their departments (maneuvers, stunning, and hit/damage respectively) than the more traditional Dex/Wis/Str/Con monk.

As I said above, I still have to run the DPR numbers for the Dex-focused and Wis-focused monks, however, I suspect the Dex monk will do better than either the Wis-focused or Dex/Wis monks. We'll see.

Well, enough break time. Back to studying!

Okay, so I'm a visual learner and decided I'd put the data in an excel spreadsheet so I could move it around (e.g. sort by DPR, rounds to kill Genero, etc).

This can be found here.

Of note, the strength based monk does pretty well when it comes to DPR. He always wins against Genero (as long as he can beat DR*), along with Barbar and Ranger. By 16th the Ranger needs to have a full (read +8) favored enemy bonus to keep up. Now, I'm sure one or two folks will cry foul, or question the numbers, or demand a recount. So, I'll be rechecking the numbers just to make sure I'm not smoking some high grade product.

For those wondering about the Maneuver monk, he does well keeping up with his two maneuvers. I picked Trip because it plays off of combat expertise and I'd rather dump Strength than Int (could use the skill point), and Grapple because it plays off of Improved Unarmed Strike. The monk would do better using Strength (at 9) and Charisma (at 7) as dump stats to start with a 16 Dex and 18 Wis. However, I don't see too many new players immediately striking on the idea of dumping two stats (especially not Strength), so I didn't set that as the base build. The build is here for those interested. Just compare that CMB to the CMD's found in the Monster by CR page or to Genero's CMD's in Monk by the Numbers document to get an idea how the altered maneuver monk will do.

Now, I've gotta get to class. Enjoy!

I agree. There are already rules threads open on the issue, but the PRD is not the sole rule authority. It is just the most convenient one. In short the absence of a rule in the PRD is not an absence of a rule. All I can suggest is to necro an old thread in the rules area, start a new one, or ask over in the PFS section. Mike Brock is pretty active over there. :)

Not only that, but the Paizo guys are great for monitoring these kinds of threads and jumping on quickly with a clarification for a sticky rules question. We may not always be happy with the answer, but they are great at getting back to their community. Paizo is better at stating their intentions behind a rule or system, and clarifying the rule. If you really need an answer, the guys who wrote the rules will tell you what they mean. In the case of things that go on a monk's hands, they've given that answer.

sorry if it was shown somewhere, but i couldn't find the monk vs fighter, etc on a boss monster. was that comparison done yet? of course dr is a factor, but i think higher ac opponents would really illuminate the main shortcoming of monks.

Well, I haven't done the boss monster (CR = APL + 2) or mook (CR = APL, using APL -2 critters) fights yet. I've done CR = APL, "Lieutenant" DPR numbers.

Here is the link again if you need it. Monk by the Numbers

Now that the basic work is done, please pick over my work. I'll do my best to defend my choices. I may post the numbers for the DPR (really just saving each DPR calculator and post the link), so there's less arguments over how I got specific numbers. I'm more than willing to play with the defensive monk's stats and feat choices (particularly deciding which maneuvers to pick).

In the end, this is not about optimizing any of these characters. I can optimize a wizard fairly well on my own. I need a guide or some good advice to do the same for the more in-your-face classes. I'm willing to bet that without some kind of guide, most players, and especially most new players can't optimize a build either. The only real argument I can see against anyone stumbling onto my offensive monk build is that most folks will say "oh, look they key off of wisdom for class features, dex for AC, and then strength," rather than saying "strength means hitting and damage, so MORE STRENGTH!!!!!!"

So now, have at it! Enjoy! And now, brain go splody. I fall over, die.

** spoiler omitted **...

See, I forgot the animal companion with my ranger build. But then the ranger does alright without favored enemy, and just scales into down right mean if he's facing an enemy he's got +6 against.

why bother with AoMF when you can just get a cestus or brass knuckles and do the same damage and have the same enchantments?

Ah, if only. Maybe in a home game. But I set out to have this work with Pathfinder Society, so you can't go with brass knuckles.

Raniel the issue with the AoMF was listed in a recent post I made. The spell itself is not the issue. That issue is whether or not the bonus is actually applied to the monk's unarmed strike meaning it would bypass DR, or whether it is only applied to the attack and damage roll. It is nitpicky, but is is also relevant.

With that aside I do have a TWF ranger done for level 1, 6, and 11. I am just double checking the numbers. I don't like the AC, but with the animal companion most bad guys should go down before the ranger goes down.

Yeah, I do think looking at the AoMF's enhancement bonus in that way is a little too nitpicky. And hell, I can pick nits with the best of them. The enhancement bonus from a magic weapon does the exact same thing. That enhancement bonus applies to the to hit and damage of the weapon when it is used in combat. So technically, RAW, that enhancement bonus on that weapon dries up when it is used for anything other than combat. I know many out there are thinking "well, d'uh, when else would you use a weapon?" But then I'd say, "Well, d'uh how else is an enhancement bonus supposed to be applied to a weapon?"

I realize that each DM is going to come to their own conclusion. But hell, they can come to their own conclusion on things that are even less controversial than whether monks get to beat DR with their fists and the AoMF, which has been held up as the one and only way to enhance the monk's unarmed strike. I'll inform those just tuning in that I spent the better part of three years finding shades of gray in the most black and white rules sets in a forum that wasn't for the weak of heart.*

We'll just leave it that for my purposes, AoMF does just like a +x weapon. Not that it really matters. It only applies somewhere between the 13th and the 16th Level iteration of the monk. 1, 6, and 11 don't even touch the issue. So the numbers don't change.

*I finally left the LG Infinite Monkeys group after seeing one too many infinite loops of "yes it does!" "no it doesn't!" "RAW clearly states!!" "you dunderhead, you're wrong!!!" "You're Not Just Wrong, RAW states you're an Ahole To BOOT!!!!" Fun times were had by all!

Keep in mind, there's a debate over whether or not the Amulet of Mighty Fist actually penetrates DR. Weapon Enhancement bonuses penetrate DR at +3 and higher, but the Amulet is not a Weapon, it just provides an Enhancement. Because it's a Wondrous Item and not an actual Weapon, the item is largely just a permanent Greater Magic Fang and GMR only allows the penetration of DR/Magic.

Actually, magic weapons with an enhancement bonus bypass DR. GMW and GMF do not penetrate DR.

note the last sentence of the first paragraph.

I note that greater magic weapon AND greater magic fang both denote they do not allow a weapon to bypass DR. Look up enhancement bonus under magic weapons and it does not say one way or another. The Amulet of Mighty Fists only notes it gives your unarmed strike or natural weapon and enhancement bonus to attack and damage. It is only in the appendix under the DR listing that you learn enhancement bonuses penetrate different levels of DR. I see the similarity in approach with magic weapons and AoMF contrasted to the spell listings for GMW and GMF, and I figure either none penetrate DR because all the base spells don't, or they all do because the AoMF is no different from the magic weapon.

DM Fiat on the boards is any situation where you have to go to the GM and ask for permission, which is basically what the crafting rules fall under since they are only guidelines, when it comes to combining two items.

In short we only use the items as they are in the book. Evenif the item were to be ok'd it would be looked upon as the monk needing special allowances, and the issue of having to choose the amulet of natural armor of the AoMF has always been a concern, and a point against the monk.

It is kind of like getting a headstart in a foot race. Even if you win there will always be an asterisk there.

In this case even if the monk gains some ground the asterisk will be there.

Okay, point. Wouldn't want to have to argue too much over that one thing. Hell, if the stuff really hits the fan, and you just have to have AC, you sacrifice 1 ki for either more move (= more AC by being nowhere near combat 8-P), or for the +4 to AC (nyah, nyah, you can't hit me). Besides, there's always Barkskin potions (or is it oil, DM: You've come up on some gobo's about to ambush your party. What do you do? Monk: I pull out my oil, grease up, and jump in there! DM: *stunned look. I, uh, I really could have done without the visual.)

I get the bump for a luck blade or sun blade. Combining other items into one doesn't really require DM fiat. It does require DM compliance. In the end, the DM is the final arbiter of what is allowed at the table. The rules state how to stack items. You take the least expensive and multiply its cost by 1.5, add it to the more expensive item, and viola! you've got a layer cake. The stuff that you can't break out because there is no real pricing anywhere else was bugging me.

In the end, I just avoided the issue in all but one case. I've combined an Amulet of Mighty Fists and Amulet of Natural Armor for the Offensive monk. I figure that far from swinging things in his favor, it actually highlights that you've got to spend way more money to equal someone else. After all, they get a magic sword +5 Holy Bane Thundering. You get AoMF at 2.5 times the cost of a weapon and it caps at +5. You've gotta decide, do I get a pure +5 to beat DR? Do I get +5 in special abilities, and then get GMF or GMW and rely on monk weapons to beat DR? Then you either go without AoNA and are +5 down on AC from everyone else, or you pay half again what everyone else is paying (on top of paying half again what the two-weapon fighters are paying) to stack the AoNA and AoMF. So, not optimal. But it gets the job done.

Well, you could work a party of three (fighter, wizard, cleric) and then slot in the monk as a scout. Flip it and add the rogue and take out the fighter. See how versatile the same build is. I was working with a party of four looking for a fifth, so the fifth wouldn't have to be uber. He'd only need to be able to contribute enough to stand out. Honestly we are not setting the bar high. This isn't a test of can the monk out tank/DPR a fullplate wearing, two-handed greatsword wielding fighter.

Hell, the barbar really shouldn't be in the comparison. He's just the DPR monster you'd expect him to be (though light on the AC). I'd take him out and slot in a bard, except, I've built him out to 11th already. I'll go back in a minute and do up the Bard, after finishing up the monsters. The barbar even does okay on having the scouting role. Slap a headband of int on him and "hey! presto!" he's got all the skills he needs.

Quick question to the boards. If a weapon like the luck blade comes as a +2 weapon, is it acceptable to pay the additional +10,000 gp to make the weapon +3? Is that considered "too cheesy"? Same goes for other specific armor weapons/armor that have a stat bonus and additional powers. Could you just raise the + to the weapon/armor and consider the other nifty powers being similar to the +x gp type powers instead of +1 or +2 bonus powers?

I did remember him saying he wanted a comparison to a full BAB, a full BAB scout, and a 3/4th BAB class.

The best full BAB scout is the ranger, which I did say I would build. I will use the TWF ranger, which is the lesser of the two IMHO, or either a switch hit version that focuses on archery first, and hitting things in the face second. Assuming this is 100 core we can use the bard or rogue. if we can use noncore classes then the magus, summoner, and inquisitor get to play. I don't see this ending well for the monk, even if the bard is the only 3/4 class used.

I should have the level 1 and 6 versions(ranger) done within a day or so.

I might try the bard also, but no promises. :)

I'm doing the monk as the 5th man. This way he doesn't have to carry the front line, just contribute. Since the Pathfinder CR system (and 3.x before it) is predicated on the 4 to 5 character party and four fights a day, the fifth character would make a full party. Which would you be willing to take? The offensive "scouting" monk? The "defensive" maneuver monk? A second fighter (sword & board or twf)? The full BAB scout (aka twf ranger)? The raging Barbar? Okay not a fair comparison. He's there for a sort of high water mark on the DPR scale.

The assumption is the rest of the party is a cleric, a wizard, a trapsfinding rogue, and a frontline fighter. The main party is full, but they'd like one more guy, most likely a scout. The monks and ranger are there as scout comparison. The sword and board and two-weapon fighter are to compare if it is possible to out monk the monk in AC, HP, and "flurrying" while not really measuring up as a scout (not enough skills even taking the favored class bonus every level). The barbar is there if the party decides, "we don't need to sneak up on it. We just crush it in two rounds!"

Once that is done, and I've worked out the enemies and the DPR calculations (thankfully using Trejon's DPR calculator found over on the DPR olympics thread), I'll consider adding other classes, like the bard, or a scouting rogue. Or my head might just explode. We'll see.

My wife is complaining she's becoming a gaming widow. She's already looking for a "gaming widow" t-shirt and she's the DM for our Friday night game!

I would not do it at each CR. That is a lot of work. Maybe every 5 levels or so. We did it at level 13 since many GM stop running games between levels 13 and 15. It has also been my experience that the higher you go in level the more other classes pull away from the monk.

The way it looks now, I should be able to at least do CR = APL and CR = APL + 2 to show the average fight and Boss fight at least. I might be able to work in a fight that is CR = APL but using APL - 2 creatures to show a mook fight.

Right now, I've finished up the Offensive and Maneuver Monks at 1, 6, 11, and 16. I've double checked all the stats (HP, AC, skills, etc). I'm now moving on to the two fighters. Once I get all the characters finished. I'll go back and deal with the monsters, run DPR numbers, and check the percentages for successfully doing maneuvers or failing saves vs. stunning fist/special attacks.

I am late to the ball, but I will say this, that going core only hurts the monk more than the other classes. If you wish for me to go ranger(my favorite core class), or barbarian(not a favorite core class) then I can do that.

PS:Just to remain on topic, I am not saying the ranger is the best core class or even best martial core class. I just like the mix of in combat, and out of combat abilities that I get.

What you should you should also do is use the monk against various monsters of the same CR. Some monsters are flyers. Other like to use ambushes. Others use brute power. Some have special abilties, and some are what I call "combination" monsters. You should also use monsters that are APL+3 to see how a monk fairs in boss level fights.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I look at monsters 2 to 4 CR's above my character level when I build characters. I don't expect to be able to solo them, but I do expect to be able to contribute in some way against most of them.

Some good points. I had considered using different monsters to test the group. I went with the generic monster to show the base statistics (AC, HP, Saves, etc). I could do numbers on three or four of the monsters at each CR. But that would have to wait a bit. I want to get the characters finished first.

I like the idea of the boss fight monster. I will definitely add that in.

with that being said BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!!!

Good.

"The internal combustion engine is neither internal nor combustible. Talk amongst yourselves!"

this makes me laugh. but this more then anything else:

"It takes 2 or 3 classes to do what a Monk can do in 1. You can call that useless if you want, but I call that utility."

ok i dont mean to sound like a dick, or derail this thread, but this mentality annoys me. a magus is a better 3/4th bab class then a monk. as much as i love monks its true. the fact that they can cast spells with more utility then DD, wear armor without ASF, and deal massive ammounts of pain with a higher to hit then a fighter. a cleric, magus, alchemist, and oracle all contribute more to the group then the monk. whats worse is they are all better without archetypes.

That may be. And I just might stat up a magus at the end of this thing to test them. Or let someone else do that, as I'll probably need a break. I stuck with the CRB because that is the one and only thing you can guarantee a person will access. Sure, it is possible that a group is running 100% from the internets and would have access to 100% of the stuff that is on PFSRD. I feel the CRB is the one book that a group would go in for if they decided, "hey, let's try Pathfinder!"

the standard monk is not a team player, is a soloist. guess what other classes are soloists, barbarian, fighter, and cavalier, all dpr classes, but the monk doesnt count as a DPR class.

And that is what we are here to test. Two pure DPR classes and one full BAB class that is a scout, something the monk is supposed to be able to do with Dex being part of the monk's MAD and having Stealth, Acrobatics, and Perception as class skills.

So can everyone else "out monk the monk?" Can the monk "play in the big leagues"? Can the monk contribute? These and other pressing questions will be answered on the next episode of Days, er . . . as the Worm Turns, no. "Monk by the Numbers!"

Now, time to make the donuts.