Quijenoth's page

Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 630 posts (634 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 4 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.

Grand Lodge

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Personally I'm glad perception isn't a skill anymore.

Skills are not a fundamental part of the characters abilities, they are like iceing on the cake. They look nice but dont improve the taste.

Having a skill like perception that is a "must have" makes no sense. It also made little sense in relation to its purpose. how can one learn to be more perceptive? I know perception was originally the attempt to reduce the number of skills by combining spot and listen into one but again the same argument stands, you cant really train someone to be better at seeing or hearing. People can be trained to look out for key things like a guard trained to spot poick pockets, a scout trained to find tracks or a rogue listening out for movement in the next room, but picking out details or listening for key sounds is different to what the general perception is about.

In the past there have been house rules and such that have added perception as a 7th stat which felt more balanced. In PF2, having Perception as a seperate mechanic (it basically replaces initiative) makes sense but what seems to confuse people is its connection to the skills proficiency system.

It would be nice to see more circumstance benefits to perception due to your skills, class or ancestry but I like that only certain classes can get to mastery+.

Grand Lodge

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NorthernDruid wrote:

One positive function is that it makes 16/16 top stat builds a viable long term strategy.

But I'd really rather there just was a max cap at like, 22 (or even 20, with a max of 16 before racial ancestral? modifiers)

I think taking stats to 20 instead of 18 wouldn't be too overpowering but if its power creep your worried about perhaps removing one of the character creation steps is in order.

Grand Lodge

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Id have to agree with this thread but take it further than just fixing Fullplate. Id go so far to change the progression to something like this. (increased armors are in bold)

Light Armor
Padded +1 (drop fragile)
Leather 15 sp +2

Studded leather +2
Chain shirt +3

Medium Armor
Hide +3
Scale mail +4
Chain mail +4
Breastplate +5

Heavy Armor
Splint mail +6
Half plate +7
Full plate +8

Grand Lodge

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20ft of light (or 30 ft for a lantern) is actually pretty far in real life. It just feels incredibly small on a 5ft scale battle mat.
I too, feel the change comes from making the rules simple to learn and remember. but I do agree Low-light needs some additional benefit.

My suggestion would be that low-light simply doubles the range of the light source as well as converting all dim light to bright light.

Lantern 30ft bright light (60ft if Low-light)
Bullseye Lantern 60ft cone bright light (120ft Cone if Low-light)
Torch 20ft bright light (40ft if Low-light)
Candle 5ft dim-light (10ft bright light if low-light)

Also the thing to remember is that unless your in a dungeon or other location completely devoid of ambient light, most encounters should take place in dim light at the very least. Moonlight is referenced in the rulebook as dim-light on page 301 under special senses.

Its also worth considering how useful seeing in black and white actually is for most creatures. I wouldnt expect dwarves to read or write in complete darkness so for some darkvision creatures, using a lightsource should be just as much a requirement for those without it.

Grand Lodge

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I understand your frustration but I also know how frustrating it is to GM these superhuman social characters.

1: The skill system from 3.5/PF1 was inherently flawed because of its limited points and huge selection.

This made for great customization but it also meant sacrificing key elements of your character that could lead to disaster in the future. The most common was the rogue that couldn't pick the lock on the door, needed to progress through the dungeon. Why? Because he spent all his points in bluff.

You could have the most charismatic character in the game with diplomacy, bluff and sense motive all maxed and boosted with feats only to play him in a 15 level campaign that put the PCs in the middle of a swamp on some remote island inhabited by dinosaurs!

2: This is being discussed elsewhere on the power scale but its a fundamental part of this Playtest and changing it would probably not be possible at this point without some global reworking.

3: Not sure I understand this question as you can already take stats above 18 currently.

Playtest Rule Book wrote:

Ability Boosts

At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, your character
boosts four different ability scores. Your character can
use these ability boosts to increase her ability scores
above 18. Boosting an ability score increases it by 1 if
it’s already 18 or above, or by 2 if it starts out below 18.
For more about ability boosts and applying them during
character creation, see page 18.

4: Given how critical perception is to combat starting this would simply become the improved initiative of PF2 and likely a "must have" feat making it even less likely for you to be better than others.

5: More choice is good but again you want to make all characters good at perception? How does that make you better than others? The concept of perception is more about how alert you are to the presence of danger. Rogues Rangers and Fighters are supposed to be alert to danger, others take Alertness.

Grand Lodge

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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Kerobelis wrote:
Third attacks (with the -10 penalty) will often require more than a 20 roll. So in this case when a natural 20 is rolled, it is a hit and not a critical hit?
That is a good point. Your third or subsequent hits will crit less due to the multiple attack penalty. If you roll a 20 and that would not normally hit due to those (and other) penalties, it would be a normal hit and not a critical hit.

According to page 177 this is contradicted under the critical hits entry.

Rulbook Page 177 wrote:


When you make an attack and roll a natural 20 (the
number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack
exceeds the target’s AC by 10, this is called a critical
success (also known as a critical hit).

Its the "or" that breaks the continuity. it gives the impression that either a natural 20 or beating the DC by 10 is a critical hit. It should read...

When you make an attack and roll a natural 20 (the
number on the die is 20), your attack is considered a
success even if it failed to exceed the targets AC.

If the result of your attack exceeds the target’s AC by 10,
this is called a critical success (also known as a critical hit).

Grand Lodge

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OK, long post time to discuss a favorite topic of mine. Bows.
I am going to approach this productively using house rules I created and modified to fit into the rules presented in the playtest. This will impact on a lot of elements of the game, from weapons, to encumbrance, and to actions. I will start off with the concept and goals first before going into the rules.

Concept and Goal To add realism, limitation, viability and uniqueness to all types of ranged weapons.
Too often, ranged build characters have provided safety and limitless versatility in combat to the point where some characters forgo the use of a melee weapon entirely. Shooting adjacent opponents and doing the 5ft step dance around the battlefield to avoid AoO (Step action). By providing definitive rules on how you prepare for ranged combat, and limiting the amount of ammunition you have access too provides for a much more realistic

We know the D&D weapon categories have been simplified since the earliest days, forums have been filled with heated discussions about katanas, bastard swords, morning stars and the like. But one that has always bothered me is the bow. People say all a katana is is a keen longsword and people argue both should be unique. But why do we have two categories for bows when the only difference is the shape and materials for which it is made?

Why does composite bows have propulsive and normal “self” bows do not? The difference between self and composite bows is simply a method of construction. Neither deserve their own stat blocks which has baffled me since the early days of D&D. Compound bows however are much more interesting. The idea of cams on compound bows is to provide more damage with less effort. When a compound bow reaches maximum draw, the cams take over the strain providing better accuracy for weaker users. It doesn’t matter how much father you pull a compound bow string; the velocity of the arrow would not increase. Not so with the self or composite which is 100% dependent on the strength of the user. Compound bows may not fit some players in terms of technology but as pathfinder has firearms (although missing from the play-test) compound bows would likely be available in some parts of the world.

To help with confusion between composite and compound wording, for this write up, I will refer to composite bows as Laminate. Also, I don’t really like the volley trait as it doesn’t make any sense to what its trying to do. Instead I turned the ability on its head and called it aim. So, any reference to volley in the rulebook instead refers to aim.

Ok so on with the rules.


Archer Prep
These actions involve preparing for the use of your ranged weapon. Each use comes with advantages and disadvantages and some may not be available in all scenarios. Once you have prepared your ammunition for use, you can use the matching ranged weapons normally until the prepared ammunition is depleted.

2 actions>> Quiver Prep: You position your quiver and release the string to allow you to draw your arrows to reload your bow. This often involves moving the quiver from your back to the side or hip to reduce the time it takes to grab the arrows. When a quiver is prepped for use any sudden movement not initiated by you runs the risk of the contents of your quiver spilling out. When you are the victim of a critical success action that causes your character to move or fall prone (such as critical success from the Shove or Trip attack action) the contents of your prepared quiver spill out at your previous location. A crossbow rack mounted on your crossbow is automatically considered prepped.

1 action> Ground Prep: If you have soft ground cover such as wet soil, sand or similar at your feet, you can take an action to thrust a rack of arrows into the ground. This is often a good choice of range prep for longer fights to provide additional arrows when the quiver runs empty. Since the ammunition is placed in the ground, if you move away from the location the arrows are considered dropped and unattended.

3 actions>>> Load Quiver: This action requires loading a quiver or archery bag with a loaded rack of arrows or bolts.

3 actions>>> Load Rack: This action involves loading an archery rack or crossbow rack with arrows.

Longbow The longbow is a long piece of material with a string attaching two ends causing tension. Laminate Longbows are made by gluing various resistance materials together. These create more tension and often retain the curved shape of the bow when unstrung making them bulkier. A longbow is too large to use while you are mounted.
Shortbow A shorter version of the longbow, this bow can be used while mounted.
Crossbow The traditional crossbow or hunter’s crossbow, consists of a horizontal bow mounted on an arm with a nock and trigger. The sting is pulled back manually into the latch to “arm” the crossbow. The bolt is placed in a groove along the arm. The trigger is pulled to release the string and fire the bolt. The draw weight is generally less than 100 lbs.
Heavy Crossbow The heavy crossbow is identical to the light crossbow but with a much stronger draw weight (normally around 150-200 lbs). The heavy crossbow cannot be “armed” with 1 hand and requires 2 hands to arm. Most come fitted with a foot stirrup for better leverage, while others include a winch mechanism to slowly draw the string back with minimum effort.
Hand Crossbow also referred to as the pistol crossbow, this crossbow can be fired with one hand but still requires 2 to load.
Repeating Light Crossbow This modified light crossbow uses a self-loading lever mechanism and vertical magazine that holds 4 bolts. This is the only crossbow that can be reloaded and fired in the same action (reload 0) however due to its construction the repeating crossbow was far less deadly and had a shorter range than its counterpart.

Bow Benefits
There are 3 types of bows and crossbows, self, Laminate, and compound, while all are identical in use, they are constructed differently which provides advantages and disadvantages.

Self bows can be repaired in the wild if the string breaks, with a successful survival check a makeshift bowstring can be fashioned if you do not have a replacement.

Laminate bows can be repaired in the wild if the string breaks, with a successful survival check a makeshift bowstring can be fashioned if you do not have a replacement. Due to their construction laminate bows are much more resistant to damage, they are treated as thin iron or steel giving them a hardness of 5.

Compound This bow requires a bow press to restring or the assistance of someone else due to the torque strength of the bow. Compound crossbows generally have a built in or detachable winch. Like laminate bows their construction is much more complex however due to the many moving and intricate parts they only have a hardness of 4.

Simple Weapons
Crossbow; 30 sp; 1d8 P; 120 ft.; Reload 1; Bulk 1; Hands 2; Bow; Deadly d6, aim 30
Compound Crossbow; 120 sp; 1d10 P; 120 ft.; Reload 1; Bulk 3; Hands 2; Bow; Deadly d8, aim 30
Hand Crossbow; 25 sp; 1d6 P; 60 ft.; Reload 2; Bulk L; Hands 1; Bow; Agile, aim 30
Heavy Crossbow; 40 sp; 1d10 P; 120 ft.; Reload 2; Bulk 2; Hands 2; Bow; Deadly d6, aim 30
Compound Heavy Crossbow; 180 sp; 1d12 P; 120 ft.; Reload 2; Bulk 3; Hands 2; Bow; Deadly d8, aim 30
*NEW* Repeating Crossbow; 70 sp; 1d8 P; 80 ft.; Reload 0; Bulk 2; Hands 2; Bow; aim 30

Martial Weapons
Longbow; 60 sp; 1d8 P; 100 ft.; Reload 0; Bulk 2; Hand 1+; Bow; Deadly d8, propulsive, aim 50
Compound Longbow; 200 sp; 1d10 P; 100 ft.; Reload 0; Bulk 4; Hands 1+; Bow; Deadly d10, aim 50
Shortbow; 30 sp; 1d6 P; 60 ft.; Reload 0; Bulk 1; Hands 1+; Bow; Deadly d8, propulsive, aim 50
Compound Shortbow; 140 sp; 1d8 P; 60 ft.; Reload 0; Bulk 2; Hands 1+; Bow; Deadly d10, aim 50

Shoulder Quiver 4 sp; Bulk 1; Hands -
Archery Bag 3 sp; Bulk 1; Hands -
Archery Rack (3 capacity) 1 cp; Bulk L; Hands -
Archery Rack (12 capacity) 1 cp; Bulk 1; Hands -
Archery Rack, battlefield (50 capacity) 10 cp; Bulk 5; Hands -
Crossbow Rack 1 cp; Bulk L; Hands -
Wrist guard and finger tabs 2 sp; Bulk -; Hands -
Bow Press 120 sp; Bulk 8; Hands 2
Bowstring (10) 1 cp; Bulk -; Hands -
Silencing kit 1 sp; Bulk -; Hands -

Shoulder Quiver This quiver has a long strap suitable to placing the quiver holding 12 arrows onto your back. The quiver can be turned around to hang under your arm allowing you to draw arrows from the front instead of having to reach over your shoulder to pull out an arrow. However, in this position, with the draw string untied, sudden movement or falling can cause arrows to fall out of the quiver. You can only wear one shoulder quiver. The shoulder quiver can store arrows but not bolts. Capacity 1 Bulk

Archery Bag This smaller quiver has a large loop instead of a strap that can be attached to your belt or other waist strap. The bag contains 3 small tubes that can store 3 ammunition (or 3 capacity rack) in each. Unlike the shoulder quiver, you can wear 2 Archery Bags on each hip but can only prepare one for use at a time. The archery bag also comes with a detachable shoulder strap, so it can be stored on your back when not in use like a traditional quiver however the smaller length of the quiver prevents the user from drawing from this position. Capacity 1 Bulk

Archery Rack Racks are discs of soft material that are used to store arrows inside quivers or bags. They provide spacing to allow easy draw of the arrows or bolts. racks come in 3 and 12 slot sizes. A Shoulder quiver holds and includes 1, 12 slot rack. An archery rack holds 3, 3 slot racks. Archery Racks can also be used to store arrows in other containers such as backpacks allowing for easy reloading of quivers once they have been depleted. (this requires a full turn to complete) Bulk an empty rack weights nothing, a full 3 capacity rack is L and a full 12 capacity rack is 1 Bulk.

Archery Rack, Battlefield These Racks are wooden or iron stands made to hold large quantities or arrows, some even have hangers for bows. Found on many castle walls and stationed along the battlements to provide defending archers plenty of ammunition from attackers below. A battlefield rack holds as many as 50 arrows at a time. Providing ammunition for up to 5 archers.

Crossbow Rack This bolt rack holds 3 crossbow bolts and can be mounted on the underside of a light or heavy crossbow providing quick access when reloading. You do not need to prepare these bolts unlike a regular quiver. Capacity L Bulk

Wrist guard and finger tabs These pieces of protective clothing are used by archers to prevent friction and chafing while using the bow for an extended period.

Bow Press A table mounted device used to bend a bow to release the string enabling the user to replace a bowstring on a compound bow without the assistance of someone else.

Bowstrings Historically, bowstrings are made of hemp, linen, sinew, plant fibers and animal hides. Almost any fiber may be used in an emergency and can be made in the wild with a successful survival check.

Silencing kit using animal fur, leather pads and cotton, a ranged weapon with the aim trait can be modified to operate near silently, improving your chances of remaining undetected when hunting. Attacking a creature that hasn’t seen you would normally render you seen. Using a silenced bow allows you to make a stealth check to remain unseen assuming you have cover or concealment nearby. If you hit your target, they have a rough idea where the shot came from, due to the arrows trajectory, but cannot pinpoint your exact location. You cannot hide from targets if they are in your weapons first range increment. For Example. you can hide from shooting someone with a shortbow at 65 feet or more, but not at 60 feet or less.

New Trait
Removed Volley and replaced with Aim

Aim Ranged weapons with the Aim quality require you to spend time lining up the shot before firing. The number indicated on the aim indicates the minimum distance a target must be to you to aim correctly. Shooting at targets closer to you imposes a -2 circumstance penalty to your attack rolls.

You take aim and hold your weapon to pick off nearby enemies quickly. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage rolls on attacks made within the weapons first range increment. When using a ranged weapon with the aim trait, you don’t take the circumstance penalty to attack rolls made versus targets closer than the weapons aim limit.

Requirements You are wielding a ranged weapon with the aim trait and reload 0.
You fire a volley at all foes in an area. Make a Strike with a –5 penalty against all enemies within a 10-foot-radius burst; this burst must be centered at or beyond your weapon’s aim limit. You can only strike a number of foes up to the number of ammunitions u have prepared.

New Magic Item: Endless Quiver
1 action> Activation Focus
Activating this item instantly replenishes its ammunition. The endless quiver is always considered prepped and does not run the risk of spilling if you are forcibly moved.

Well that’s it for this post. I probably missed some things out but at least the concept is here ready for scrutiny. I would love to hear play-testers thoughts on these rules and don’t worry if you think its all a load of bull, I have broad shoulders and can take the criticism.

Grand Lodge

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OK, so disclaimer first. I downloaded and read most of the Rule book and bestiary but have yet to play-test the game.

The main approach I had was to build my favorite characters from 2nd Edition, as many have been shelved due to changes in the rules since 3.0 (specifically looking at the old kit books). I did the same with the original PF play-test.

One particular character I had was the Dwarven Rapid Response Rider [Complete Book of Dwarves] that charged into battle on the back of a grizzly bear (for which I commissioned Jeff Easley to draw me a portrait of many years ago and is framed above my computer desk). So I started putting together this character with PF2 rules. Especially after seeing Cavalier in the Archetypes.

Each attempt got me close to the 2nd Edition version with just one problem. None of them could ride the bear until at least 12th level due to the fact that the bear is size small!!!!

A simple fix would be to make the bear young companion Size Small or Medium. The problem is the dwarf size category of medium. This only really gives them the ability to ride horses. A Medium bear could thus be ridden once it is fully grown, giving the bear size large as early as 4th level for a druid, or 6th level for a cavalier.

I also think the mount special ability needs some extra clarification as to what it means.

Rulebook Page 283 wrote:
The Special entry, if present, lists any other special abilities your companion has, including whether it ordinarily serves as a mount and is appropriate for mounted classes, such as the paladin.

This just tells me if I'm a paladin I should select a horse animal companion. Seems pretty obvious not to need a defined rule for it. I noticed the work together clause about not using it while riding a companion but I think it needs more expansion, like adding rules for barding, saddle use, etc.

A similar problem also arises with boars, wolves, and cats, but these are generally far smaller than bears and more suited to small races. The largest cat (Siberian tiger) stands 3-1/2 ft at the shoulder, while a polar bear can exceed 5ft!

Other issues discovered while building this post...

The following creatures are all referenced as possible mounts but are not clearly indicated for choices as an animal companion mounts (goblin paladins riding goblin dogs?).

Camels (bestiary 37), Riding Dogs (bestiary 53), Goblin Dogs (bestiary 74), Nightmare (bestiary 90), Wargs and Winter wolves (bestiary 114)

I think it would benefit to add the following 2 abilities;

Bestiary creature ability

Animal Companion [Mount] (Companion Type [beast])

This creature can be used as an animal companion using the companion type specified in its description.
If the entry includes [Mount], Add Special mount, to the animal companion entry.
commentary wrote:
This allows for mount specific versions of animals to be identified for paladins and cavaliers and could be used to indicate proficiency in barding and handling a rider.

If the creature type indicates [beast], this type of creature can be selected as an animal companion if the character uses the Beast Companion specialization ability. Obtaining rare or intelligent creatures as animal companions is subject to GM approval.

The creature retains all special abilities when used as an animal companion (a camel can spit, a boar can charge, a tiger can pounce and wrestle, a nightmare keeps its smoke aura, fly speed, resistance fire 10, divine innate spells and flaming gallop, etc.).
Commentary wrote:
retaining special abilities is just a consideration for clarity, I'm no rules master so this might be unbalanced and might need further clarity/justification for each creature but it certainly needs addressing.


Camel: Animal Companion [Mount] Horse
Elephant: Animal Companion [Mount] Horse?
Nightmare: Animal Companion [Mount] Horse [beast]
Riding Dog: Animal Companion [Mount] Wolf
Tiger: Animal Companion Cat
Winter Wolf: Animal Companion Wolf [beast]

Rulebook specialized companions ability

Beast Companion

You may select a beast creature with the Animal Companion [Beast] ability as your animal companion instead of choosing a specialization. Treat this new companion as if the previous one had died, requiring 1 week downtime to obtain. If the beast companion dies you can acquire a normal animal companion within 1 week. To obtain a new beast companion requires 1 month downtime. Some GMs may require special side quests to be completed before replacing your beast companion if the creature is particularly rare (obtaining a winter wolf while in a desert).
The new beast companion starts off as Full-Grown and does not apply any modifications for full-grown companions (do not increase strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, increase its unarmed damage dice, proficiency rank for perception, saving throws or size). apply modifiers normally for nimble and savage companions.
Obtaining rare or intelligent creatures as companions is subject to GM approval so you should check with your GM what creatures are available before choosing this specialization.

Other Considerations...
It would be good to see arachnids, fish and insects included as animal companion types which I imagine you may have already considered but excluded from the play-test due to size issues (pun intended). Many of these also have beast counterparts which would work as companions and mounts (Ankheg, Giant Spider and shark mounts anyone?)

Thanks for listening! I look forward to seeing what more PF2 offers as the months go by.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Here's some images and video of our recent holding and outpost placements.

Trading Post as featured in the recent Kickstarter Email

Lumberjack Outpost Sporting the Gold and Brown colors of the River Kingdoms Trading Company.

Sanctum Holding

Library Holding and a short Library Construction Video

I will be uploading more images into my websites gallery as we build them!

Beyond the Grave Gallery

Join us today and make full use of our new training facilities!

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Saiph wrote:

How can anyone possibly take what Golgotha says seriously, they just mock and spout passive-aggressive comments to those that don't agree or debate with them. And then want others to take them serious when it's time to talk business. Yes, that is what you're doing...Nihimon and Decius post facts and recaps of actual situations; you all should try it.

lol. funniest thing I've read in ages. And I thought I was misinformed!

Thanks for the laugh.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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I would like to see some themed PvE events that happen either locally in a hex, spread over x number of hexes or even globally over the entire map.

kind of like the following.

Night of the full moon. During night hours certain hexes become infected with lycanthropy altering the mobs in those hexes.

Mists of Transference. A Magical mist descends over settlements leaving a settlement randomly transports you across the map to a random hex. ("I guess were not in Kansas anymore toto.")

These wouldn't be hard to implement I imagine and could be good or bad ideas.

However, I believe more static camps would degenerate too much into theme-park territory, something PFO isn't.

The escalations do need more variety though AND i feel they do need a few more base mechanics.

currently Escalations spawn, give mini quests and spread. some spawn bosses with loot.

Escalations need more monster types. New rewards (hopfully this will happen when enchantment comes in), wandering/patrolling mobs as well as camps, better AI (think this is a given), and something else. Structures.

When Holdings go in I hope we will soon see structures for the monsters too - a way to PvE bulk resources for your company/settlement. How effective these holdings are will hopefully grow in time. For now it would be nice for bandits to have hideouts, cultists to have shrines and goblins to have scrap piles. But wouldn't it be great if mordant spire was able to build large walls and gates similar to the gates of Mordor? with the only access to the core monster hex being to beat down those gates or wait for them to open (as the escalation spreads).

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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from the D&D Wiki

A Lawful Evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while it usually obeys its superiors and keeps its word, it cares nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and is not averse to twisting rules in its favor.[citation needed] Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.[citation needed]

Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?".[citation needed]

Boba Fett of Star Wars, and X-Men's Magneto are cited examples of Lawful Evil characters in Complete Scoundrel (3.5e)


From the Pathfinder Wiki

Lawful evil is the realm of the individual who knows what they want and will manipulate the system (legal, cultural, and so forth) to achieve those ends, no matter the consequence. This can be for personal gain (for example, the traditional evil vizier who seeks to claim the kingdom for himself) or to better society at all costs - the "I know what's best for everyone else"-attitude without any of the compassionate limits to action found in lawful good (an excellant example is Cardinal Richelieu of Three Musketeers fame).

For me Golgotha is most definitely LE. but a rather proactive LE.

LE settlements in many instances (in games, film, literature, and history) work under a veil, they scheme and plot right under the noses of the good settlements around them. Jut like the dark lords of the Sith.
What evil banditry goes on around the good settlements is not connected to the LE settlement until THEY want it to be. So the banditry seems chaotic in nature.
Guurzak's plan to hold for the later game is perfectly reasonable and should be embraced by the good settlements to fully immerse into the world. Golgotha should be playing the sleeping dragon, dormant until it is big enough and strong enough to attack.

The thing is, Pathfinder Online is not ready to support LE. But those in Golgotha want to stick to their ideals now and not wait for the game to give them their ideal play experience.

The only settlements that should be being questioned on alignment right now is the few Good settlements that are actively aggressive, expansive and attack settlements (and not necessarily evil ones) without provocation. They have reacted to a label that is as far from roleplaying as anything else. Before I even got into PFO, there was threats at Golgotha to drive them out before the end of EE by these so called good settlements! Good is supposed to respect all life no matter how evil. Killing evil just because they are evil is more Chaotic Evil than Lawful Good!

Territorial Lines have been drawn on the map yet it seems that the Good settlements are the only ones trying to expand into neighboring territories. Stoneroot are expanding all the way to the east, TEO are pushing North, with no concern for the consequences. Rushing towers with large numbers, not engaging in PVP but simply sitting in a group around the tower spamming heals is not engaging the games mechanics, its exploiting.

War of Towers was meant as a way to define these boarders. Not a race to see who can hold them all first. IMHO It failed miserably and in the process has created some much unneeded bad publicity for the game and those playing it.

To TEO and SG, how much more enjoyable would this game become if the Empire was just another good settlement?

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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My Archer has

Bow Specialization 4 - 9,142 xp 0.391 dex
Bowyer 2 - 1,908 xp 0.085 dex
Leatherworker 2 - 1,908 xp 0.085 dex
Ranged Attack Bonus 4 - 3,620 xp 0.078 dex
Overdraw 3 - 2,602 xp 0.07 dex
Lightning Reflexes 2 - 488 xp 0.049 dex
Archer 6 - 4,331 xp 0.043 dex
Base Attack Bonus 4 - 8,558 xp 0.028 dex
Reflex Bonus 3 - 1,954 xp 0.026 dex
Followthrough Foresight 2 - 721 xp 0.025 dex
Half Draw 2 - 721 xp 0.025 dex
Impact Critical Shot 2 - 721 xp 0.025 dex
Parting Shot 2 - 721 xp 0.025 dex
Sorrow's Release 2 - 721 xp 0.025 dex
Power 9 - 2,140 xp 0.009 dex
Bow Weapon Proficiency 2 - 1,024 xp 0.009 dex
Deafening Critical 2 - 1,881 xp 0.008 dex
Sickening Critical 2 - 1,881 xp 0.008 dex
Medium Armor Proficiency 2 - 1,024 xp 0.0045 dex
Evasion 1 - 81 xp 0.004 dex
Bullseye Shot 1 - 81 xp 0.004 dex
Impaling Shot 1 - 81 xp 0.004 dex
Patient Anchor 1 - 81 xp 0.004 dex
Pinpoint Targeting 1 - 81 xp 0.004 dex
Scout 2 - 61 0.001
Swashbuckler 2 - 61 0.001

Thats 1.0405 total dex

I Took some of the rogue armor feats and implrement proficiency simply because they are so cheap. I also have light melee attack bonus and Light blade proficiency at higher ranks but thats not what your interested in and requires a bit more xp so I excluded them.

For the XP, Leatherworking 2 and Bowyer 2 are worth the investment to hit 11 Dex. However, you could go just Bowyer 3 to give yourself an extra .029 Dex but will cost 5342 xp instead of 3816. This is only viable if you intend to craft your own arrows and bows though.

My current in-game Dex is registered at 11.24 and these numbers above are from sspitfires lists so are a little off in some respects.

Note: Archer 5 Requires 11 Dex and Bow Spec 2 requires Level 8 Fighter which requires 11 str or dex, base attack bonus 4, hit points 8 and power 8.

Hope that helps you to hit 11.

as for what longbow skills to increase I currently run with Overdraw, Sorrows Release and Half-draw, Parting Shot, Followthrough Foresight and Patient Anchor. I also Have Resiliency (Per) and Evasion (Dex) as my utilities.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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I have an idea for towers.
Firstly, when your PVP window first opens, a tower guard spawns on the tower. This is a red NPC mob that stands on the platform.

He does not attack anyone standing near the tower but if you climb the stairs in an attempt to claim the tower he attacks.

Once the NPC guard dies, a hex wide announcement (you could also have an announcement in the settlement or game wide) goes out informing all that the tower is under attack. At this time the tower can be captured like normal.

Instead of the PVP window opening for a specified time and then closing, this time instead indicates the duration before another tower guard spawns. the towers you have the less defenders you have to assign, this is indicated by a longer timer window.

The intent is to deter 1 player captures and actually promote team PVP. Your most likely going to need 2 people to deal with the NPC guard. Since his death gives out an announcement your less likely to leave 1 person holding it especially if the respawn window of the guard means another will spawn before the 80 mins is up.

This system could continue to be used for POIs in the future and improvements to defenders and announcements could be created at settlements "barracks".

I like the idea of additional defenses mentioned earlier and could see things like wizard portals linked to players. those with the teleport spell could jump to the portal. Summoning circles could be used from nearby settlements to instantly respond instead of running.

Second suggestion on the announcement - perhaps there could be some warning tied to the company window - how about listing a holding in red and flagging it as "under attack". to highlight this simply have the icon on the bar change to red (in a similar way your bag changes color when your encumbered)

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

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Atome wrote:
Bully for you i work for the Government and was up at 5, do i win a prize?

Depends if you can do something about my Tax bill? :) LOL

Grand Lodge

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Been brainstorming the downtime system this weekend with my group and will try and answer a few questions...

Jacen wrote:
Next up is town spending limits. Do you need to pay for the entire costs (good, capital, labour and magic) before the construction of a building or recruitment of an organisation can begin? Otherwise spending limits for town size seem fairly moot.

earning Capital and Constructing a building are two separate activities during downtime, you cannot begin constructing a building until you have earned the capital to pay for it. (however you could continue to earn additional capital while the building is being constructed.)

Also these costs apply to purchasing capital - you couldn't go into a village and expect to purchase 20 goods just because you got the gold.

Jacen wrote:

My last query is to do with the "Run a business" downtime activity. Now the description of this activity says the you can spend the day inspiring your workers by personally running your business, and this means you can make a check to earn capital at +10. So in the inn example my inn has a +41 bonus to earn capital and if I run it personaly this increases to a total of +51 correct?

Why then would I not just abandon this activity to earn capital for the inn by itself as soon as I have a skill modifier of more than +10 (which does not take long in pathfinder) Say I have craft(blacksmith) at +18 I could have myself earn capital at +18, and the inn earn capital at +41 for a total of +59 per day.

The +10 is in addition to your applied skill check (effectively if you have the skills and a business to run, your take a 10 on the check becomes a 20).

Remember earning capital and running a business is an Activity Phase but you business generates its capital during the Income Phase.

So in your example you could earn 1 goods (18 check) and the inn could earn 4 goods (41 check) or you could work together and get a +10 bonus for a total of 6 goods. It basically boils down to +1 capital. the only restriction is that it must be a capital the building can generate. you couldn't use an inn to get a +10 bonus to magic capital.

CaptainJandor wrote:

iirc, there is no upkeep associated with organizations or buildings. just the up-front cost.

remember, however, that for every 7 days you are away from a business that doesn't have a manager (i think) your earnings go down, and once you've been away for 30 days you have to make capital attrition checks.

there also may be costs that come into play due to Downtime Events, but those are randomly generated.

not entirely correct.

A typical Tavern (Page 112) has an earnings of +19 gp and +17 influence.
The tavern can earn you 2 gp 9 sp or 2 influence each day without you being there and without a manager. A Tavern has no upkeep costs but if you employ a manager (innkeeper) you must pay his wages (2gp/day) as upkeep.

So every day of downtime the tavern will generate you 2gp 9 sp or 2 influence, however, every 7 days you lose 1 point of capital (goods, influence, labor, or magic). Having a manager extends the attrition to 14 days but does NOT prevent capital attrition.

Also, according to the rules for earning capital;

Ultimate Campaign - page 77 wrote:
Earning capital is like using an item crafting feat to create a magic item: You have to put in some work to make the item, but you pay only half the normal price for it.

it goes on to say

Ultimate Campaign - page 77 wrote:
If a downtime activity’s description says it generates capital, you can earn that amount of capital by spending the required amount of downtime and gp on it;

In other words you can earn 2 points of influence from your tavern but it will cost you (or the tavern) 30gp to do so.

Business Attrition is all or nothing. if you are away from your business and it has no manager, the moment you fail a leadership check after 30 days away from the business that building cannot generate you ANY income since you last visited the business, it will continue to lose you capital however via capital attrition unless you abandon it.

Regarding the Ship - I would simply call the business an organisation. you could certainly use a dock or pirates cove as a base and run that as a business but I wouldn't "build" a ship out of rooms.

As pointed out, Magic can generate much more income than goods, labor, influence, or gp, effectively granting you 100gp towards magic item creation for 50gp and 1 days work.

Lets say you want to make a +1 longsword (2,000gp dropping the MW weapon costs to keep it simple) you could craft it for 1,000gp and 2 days work. alternatively you can earn 2 points of Magic for 100gp per day, spend 500gp and 5 days to generate 10 Magic. You could then spend the 10 magic and 2 days work to make the +1 longsword. You now have a +1 longsword for 500gp. you could sell it for 1,000 gp and make 500gp profit but its taken you 7 days to do it.

Is this such a big deal? well if your doing this yourself then no its not - most GMs wont worry because they wont give you the time to generate this between adventures. however if you have buildings or organisations generating you magic, the time investment is negated completely!

Personally I'd be inclined rule that only 50% of the cost to create a magic item can come from Magic Capital.

Grand Lodge

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Any chance of getting a larger version of this once the order fixed?

Would look awesome as my desktop* background

*1920 x 1080

Grand Lodge

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Harsk: "Hey look, The Pathfinder Ride... Wow, Neat!"

Tenku: "Gimmie a break!"

Merisiel: "I dont like this!!!"

Kobolds: *Singing*
"It's a world of laughter,
A world of tears.
It's a world of hopes,
And a world of fears.
There's so much that we share,
That it's time we're aware,
It's a small world after all.

It's a small world after all.
It's a small world after all.
It's a small world after all.
It's a small, small world. "

Party runs out screaming!

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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I have a suggestion for PVP Griefer discouragement.

Law and punishment should be upheld in the game and built into the play experience.

What do I mean? simply put when you die two things happen, you are either captured or enter a death state.


This includes captured by enemy player guilds, arrest in an NPC town and the like.

Anyone that is captured is placed in jail. Then the act of leaving jail falls not only on yourself (in the way a rogue would try and escape his cell by picking the lock while the guard sleeps; but also by your team mates who should do their best to free you from your incarceration.

failure to escape leads to two end results, you do your time and walk free (a timer that could pass while offline) for lesser crimes, or you are sentenced to death via execution for major crimes, thus entering the death state. You could also suicide to enter death state prematurely.

Death State

While many games in the past have left you with a simple button to re-spawn at your bind point or to force you to journey to specific resurrection alters, or even wait for a kind soul to resurrect you on the battlefield. to prevent death-rush griefing I propose an alternate death state. you effectively travel as a spirit in the world. You cannot interact with anything or anyone and must travel to special churches and alters before interaction can take place. This could include a communing priest (PC or NPC) or even "haunting" a dungeon or house.

Once at those alters you must wait for your soul to be united with your body. teammates can recover your corpse from the battlefield and drop you off at a shrine or church at which point you can use the alter to return to life. without a body you can be brought back via powerful resurrection magics but you must wait for either a hosting body or for the new body to regrow.

Resurrection in the battlefield should be a lengthy process - not a simple click and your up.

Death state is just as much as a journey as adventuring and if done right many players might enjoy staying in death state for extended periods of time. the spirits of others both players, NPCs, Mobs and Environment are all still there and you can fight them off as they try and prevent you from getting to a shrine or church.

Additionally the death state has a bright light that hovers above your head. A destination that allows souls to move on from the world. choosing this option (by simply clicking it) deletes your character from the game. you go back to character selection and can only choice 2 options, delete and restart. Delete clears the available character slot. restart sets your character back to its original state when first created and allows you to restart from scratch without having to remake the character.

Additional Comments

Dieing is an experience and while many games in the past have penalized people for dieing with XP loss or time investments on corpse runs, I propose to reward people for dieing. give players that die some incentive to come back to life. The longer between each death the bigger the reward. These rewards would affect you in life such as granting a sixth sense of other spirits near you or a limited ability to commune with the dead.

Starting characters:
When making characters for this game immersion should start BEFORE you click "enter world" - The character creation process should be tied in with mini-games, puzzles and tutorial maps to introduce the player to the game but to also deal with certain decision making aspects of character creation.

For example deciding to be a wizard should enter you into a tutorial on how to cast spells. you are entered into the game as a young version of yourself experiencing the wizard guilds training. you then, upon completion, return to character creation and decide on additional skills, taking blacksmithing introduces you to the role of a smith and what you can make. being evil introduces you to the dregs of society in your starter town. bully's, muggers, and assassins teach you how to truly be evil.

Each skill choice and the decisions on alignment (if its in the game) should come with some form of gameplay.

Players should be able to make quickplay characters but this should be limited to 1 slot per account. That quickplay slot should be limited to 1 character per day (thus deleting it locks that slot to prevent multiple toons and each is flagged as non-PVP for the first day it enters the world.

The intent on this is to A) discourage making fast play characters purely to grief new players. B) make the penalty for dieing time consuming without it being a grind or boring.

Do's & Dont's
If your attempt is immersion please, please, please do not have the new areas of the game teaming with giant rats, snakes and other vermin for the players to "grind" on. MMOs are notorious for filing the worlds with trash to kill, its not realistic and it most certainly isn't immersible gameplay.

Some people like to be helpful and I think it would be very nice to have guide programs. Guild leaders, officers and the like could flag themselves as guides. They could tutor people during these tutorials as possible recruits for their guilds. This would only improve the interaction and immersion. Guides should be aware of the requirements however, kind of like a customer service option, the player is responsible for his actions, everything they do is reported to the Customer Service for mediation after the fact, thus highlighting (and discoraging) bad experiences for new players.

Grand Lodge

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mdt wrote:

Something that bothers me repeatedly is the bonuses based on size.

Rules wrote:

Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

The problem isn't at the upper end, Colossal is pretty easy to see, regardless of the size of the viewer. However... We end up with the following issues :

Spiders : Spiders that don't rely on webs to trap passing insects cease to exist, because they starve to death as a species. So trapdoor spiders, tarantulas, etc all disappear. They starve to death. A trapdoor spider has to have a massive perception bonus to have a chance of noticing a passing centipede (Say, 1 rank in stealth, +16 size bonus, +3 dex bonus, 19+ 1d20, so minimum roll of 20, maximum of 29). To ambush the centipede, the trapdoor spider needs, if he has 1 rank in perception and a +1 wisdom, an 18 or higher to catch him. In other words, a 15% chance of noticing the centipede as it goes past.

Insects : Any predatory insect has the same issues as Spiders. Which means non-predatory insects take over, eat all the crops, and the entire ecosystem dies. :)

Cat & Mouse : Cat's never catch mice, they never notice them. The mice has a +12 bonus to stealth vs something about it's size that's a natural predator for it.

I'm not sure what the fix is. But it bothers me. I started to suggest a bonus based on size difference, but that doesn't work for larger creatures, not really.

not sure this is how it would work in the real world.

Trapdoor spiders, cats, etc. would actually only need to perceive their prey who most of the time would not notice the predator. its the predator that is using stealth not the other way round as your reading it. Cats effectively ready an action to attack a mouse when it "breaks" cover.

In effect predators like you describe would actually be using survival to track down their prey then stealth to wait for the moment to strike. The prey is almost always unaware of the danger until its too late.

Grand Lodge

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Heres a suggestion to fix the diversion part...

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a standard action, you can make a feint to gain concealment to make a stealth check to hide. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) at the start of your next action or you make an attack (as defined in the feint rules). If you do not have cover or concealment by the end of your next action any stealth check to become hidden automatically fails. If you have the improved feint feat you can make a stealth check as part of the feats move action to feint (granting you the hidden condition for that attack).

Grand Lodge

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Firstly, WOW what a wonderful re-write!

This is such a great improvement to the existing rules. "wonders when these conditions will get added to the condition card set? :)"

One question I do still have though. multiple onlookers.
The rules clearly state how stealth works against a single person.
They also clearly state how stealth works when you are hiding from multiple onlookers.
But it doesnt clearly define how stealth is handled when one person spots you but others do not while trying to maintain stealth.

In the past when someone spots a sniper up on a rooftop he would use an action to help others by pointing the target out (thus prompting a new perception check from those that failed). Is this how you see these rules working or would you recommend something else?

The rules do allow for additional perception checks base on new stimuly (such as sniping every round) but what about when your trying to lay low?

Grand Lodge

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While I like what I've read, there is still one issue that concerns me. mass die rolls.

Stealth performed every round, by multiple opponents observing can lead to a combat round getting bogged down by uncessessary die rolls.

What I propose is that if you are considering re-writing the rules perhaps is the time to hardcode in some static rules to cover stealth and perception.

Consider them along the lines of CMB/CMD where one is fixed while the other is rolled.

The advantage I see to this is allowing room for additional rules such as class benefits (assassin and ninja springs to mind) and perhaps stackable and situational bonuses to cover the differential between perception (sight) and perception (sound).

An example might be that the stealth skill for a character might be rolled against a fixed DC of perception (sight) and/or perception (sound) specified in each opponent. Perception might consider a flat 10, like AC, but gets boosted by +5 for a character that is considered alert to danger and +10 that is aware of who or where that danger is. A sleeping character might be considered to have a -10.

Fixed dice does require a slight adjustment in the rules for determining stealth since as an opposed roll the chances of succeeding against a automatic 20 rolled perception doesnt put the odds favorably on the stealthy character.


Grand Lodge

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PRD wrote:
Greater Grapple: This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

A creature with this feat would make a grapple check as a move action and could choose to pin damage or move the target of its grapple during that move action. it could then, as a standard action pin damage or move the target again...

the benefit of this feat is two fold, firstly you can get up to two results in a single round out of a grapple on one foe as grandfather mentions. Second, you get two chances to maintain the grapple in a round, if the move action one fails, the standard action may still succeed.

However, only ONE check is required; If the move action check succeeds you do not need to make a check during the standard action, success is automatic. This does not apply to the Tie Up maneuver if the target isn't pinned, this actually requires an additional grapple check at -10 to perform.

Grand Lodge

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Simple Question - What would be the best bloodline to give Xanesha when converting her to PFRPG?

Grand Lodge

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Daniel Moyer wrote:

Shield Bash Attacks:(pg. 152)

Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

Both shields also specifically say they are STRAPPED TO YOUR FOREARM & GRIPPED WITH YOUR HAND, at best I'd say you could use Disarm to REMOVE SHIELD AC for that turn. Otherwise it's armor strapped onto the person and needs to be Sundered.

This reminds me of another relatively recent thread...
Monks and Locked Gauntlets The debate here being, can monks proficient with gauntlets actually use them WITHOUT class penalties, because they are pieces of armor.

I agree with Daniel 100% on this. I have had a character in one game tie a leather strap round his sword and tied onto his bracer on his armor. this effectively allowed him to use a move action to recover his weapon after a disarm attempt. The drawback was he had to spend a full round unstrapping it if he wanted to change weapons and couldnt utilise the quickdraw feat with that hand. in addition it was only effectively allowable with one-handed or light weapons. double weapons and two handed weapons (or one handed weapons used with 2 hands) suffered a -2 penalty to hit and damage because of the restrictive strap.