I can appreciate that... but why replicate a mistake? Omit ethnicities from the core rules and surmise diversity in the human entry like everything else.
Beyond that... grasping the concept of what Ancestry and Heritage actually are vs. What they are intended to be is even more frustrating. It reads like it is supposed to be a new thing, but feels like race but it's not race. Hopefully they expand it and clean it up a bit.
In other words, where are all of the ethnicities for the other I did not doubt their existence. =) But Vic presented a problem that a core concept change was supposed to solve, but what is presented in the playtest still echoes the problem... that is humans are treated differently than other races in regards to Ethnicities in the Core book.
Give it a break man Give what a break, exactly? If "Race" is too restrictive a term and we need a new, more accessible term that allows the designers to address problems in design, I'm all for that. Now we have a new term, "Ancestry". They changed everywhere where they would use "Race" and used "Ancestry" instead. What changed? Well, now Racial feats are called "Backgrounds" so they can have an "A, B, C" acronym. What about all the design problems? I'm still seeing the things that Vic pointed out. Those design flaws are still there when they don't have to be. Now that we have a new term and cool new acronym (I'll admit its a little goofy, but its growing on me) can we actually get the flaws that were pointed out fixed? In other words, where are all of the ethnicities for the other Why does the human Kellid ethnicity, humans that live in the Mountainous north, not have access to the Mountain Roots Ancestry feat if the point of using "Ancestry" instead of "Race" was to allow us to transcend racial lines and allow for multiple Ancestries from the same region type to have access to the same or similar Ancestry feats? The reasoning behind the change is spot on. It's a new concept... they are presenting core aspects of character creation differently. I'll buy that AND spread it like gospel. ...but the execution of that vision is what is lacking. What is written in the playtest text is not as advertised. Let's throw "Race" by the wayside and actually make Ancestry something new and different.
I do not mind the "everything is a feat" approach... I really don't. I think it greatly simplifies things from a conceptual standpoint. But there should be options tied to race, ethnicity, and culture. These core elements should be what we think of when we think of Ancestry. What is vastly disappointing is that Vic identified a problem... lack of ethnicities in other races... but the Playtest does nothing to address this.
But we get no sun dwarf, no dark dwarf, no desert dwarf, no hill dwarf, no mountain dwarf...
But again, Humans are the only race to get this treatment. I'm not seeing how replacing the word "Race" with "Ancestry" fixed anything if the same problem that Vic presented is STILL present in the playtest, and that is that only Humans, be it race or ancestry, have any varied Ethnicities. I like the idea of "building" an ancestry. I am very much a fan of the level of detail that it allows for, but what are we building it from? Half-elves and half-orcs require human heritage, but where does that come from? The Human Ancestry, which gives you the human and humanoid traits. Ancestry is a synonym for heritage... so why not just say "prerequisite Human Ancestry"? If Ancestry is supposed to address the problems Vic listed, then the playtest needs to reflect that and currently it doesn't. Account for the species, ethnicity, and other non-biological, cultural aspects. Right now, I look at the playtest and aside from the half-elf and half-orc, it FEELS like the word Race was simply replaced with Ancestry because the problems that the change is supposed to address still remain painfully visible.
Also, what of joint cultures? If elves, dwarves, and humans all build a city in the fruitful jungle that is surrounded by the desert. How are those cultural similarities between different races, or Ancestries, portrayed in stats? Would they all have a common background feat or something like that?
And killing half races as actual races. That further muddies the waters as what is the proper term for an elf/orc hybrid? Don't get me wrong... I am a BIG fan of this particular aspect from a capability standpoint and LOVE that it is included in the core concept of the game... But we have dwarf ancestry, elf ancestry, human ancestry... what are the proper titles for the hybrids?
While I do greatly appreciate the explanation... You folks wrote the books... why did Paizo include ethnicities (sub-races) under the Races chapter? Why did you not inject that same diversity into any of the other races? Some aspects of a creature's make up comes from species. Semi-elastic skin vs. scales. Hair vs. Quills. Bi-pedal vs. Quadrupedal. Four arms vs. two arms. These are determined by the actual species (race). Some aspects of a creature's make up comes from their ethnicity, cultural background, the genetic make-up of their ancestors, and their physical location on the planet. Things like ethics, customs, hair texture, skin pigmentation, religion, appetite / palate. I guess I'm more confused as one blog post says it's simply a term replacement. It seems, however, that the core concept of what would be called "race", now Ancestry, has changed to include race, ethnicity, culture all rolled into one... instead of simply including ethnicity as a core concept. I'll pose you the same question I posed to other folks... how are the differences between a Dark-elf going to vary from a Wood-elf in how they are quantified and will there be varying sub-cultures of Dark-elves or are Dark-elves the subculture itself?
Personally, I'm convinced that this is quite literally the only reason they opted for the name change, and the rest of the reasons came after. I'm quite convinced its the opposite, unfortunately.
Historically, race has been misrepresented as paraded around in lieu of ethnicity. Race is not pseudoscience. Society used the term incorrectly. There were, last I checked, three different homid races that have existed on Earth. Calling scientific fact pseudoscience because society is too stupid to correctly use terminology is poor practice. How does this impact the game? Well, we now have terms that are more confusing. Ancestry and Heritage mean the same thing, but now in game, they are different.
So is dark-elf going to be an ancestry or something else?
This makes the most sense in regards to adopting a new term. But what do we call someone's culture now? My ancestors are Cajun. My ancestry is Cajun. That's a distinct thing. My race is human. If my ancestry is now human, what does this version of Pathfinder call the thing that used to be ancestry?
New edition. New terms. For the better, at that. That implies that something was wrong with using the word "race" in the contextually correct manner. I'm curious as to why the correct usage of a word is a bad thing.
No, you just have a list of ancestries.It is so you can have multiple ancestries for a given race.Race is no longer a thing. It is now Ancestry. So you can have multiple ancestries within an ancestry? So what is the in-game term for species?
Because people new to the game will not know what the hell I am talking about when I say race. I have to change because they fixed something that wasn't broken to begin with. Fantasy games have always used race in a contextually correct manner, unlike society.
It is so you can have multiple ancestries for a given race. Race is no longer a thing. It is now Ancestry. So you can have multiple ancestries within an ancestry?
Because race in fantasy games is supposed to be innate biology and race in real life is constructed?I dislike "race" and prefer "ancestry". Ancestry is more precise and less problematic.How is "race" problematic in the context of a fantasy roleplaying game? In the context of a fantasy roleplaying game, there is no "real life". So again, why is the use of race in its proper context, in game, a problem?
I dislike "race" and prefer "ancestry". Ancestry is more precise and less problematic. How is "race" problematic in the context of a fantasy roleplaying game?
Wouldn't subspecies make more sense since interbreeding yields fertile offspring? Neanderthals and Humans, two different species, yielded fertile offspring.
If we are talking about precision, wouldn't Species then be the superior choice? Also, who says a dwarf can't raise an orc.
If we are talking about precision, wouldn't Species then be the superior choice? If that were true, then humans would not have neanderthal DNA... which we do. Interbreedability is possible between different species within the same genus.
Sorry OP. Ancestry is a better term as far as I’m concerned and better fits the stated goal in the book that RPGs are for everyone. It's contextually incorrect. Omitting the word "race" seems like a play to pander to a specific, notoriously intolerant "of those that do not agree with us" crowd.
So what is Chelaxian? A specific ethnicity to an ancestry, when ancestry literally means the exact same thing as ethnicity, culture, or heritage. Use "species". At least that is contextually correct, while Ancestry is not.
Preface: I've only read a bit and haven't done character creation or played yet. The whole "race is now ancestry" feels contrived. If anything, "ancestry" should denote sub-race, not your actual species. I get it, you are trying to avoid the use of the word "race" because your company is PC and "inclusive" (my assumption, of course). Ethnicity, Ancestry, Heritage, Culture... all these words refer to SUB-set of the Human Race in the English Language. If it's not Human, it's another RACE... if its a different type of Human... those are varying Ancestries. Taldan, Chelaxian, THESE are ancestries. Are we going to have different ethnicities of a given ancestry? That sounds extremely redundant. If anything, use "Species"... that would be a lot closer to being contextually correct. All of this to say, Paizo... do what brought you to the dance. Take something that folks love and make it better while keeping it familiar enough to remain accessible. That's why Pathfinder worked. From what I have read, it seems more foreign than familiar.
I'm looking to see why certain things changed from something that worked in PF1 to something else in PF2. The reason I'm asking is this feels more like 3.5e to 4e rather than what I was expecting, which was 3.5e to PF. So far my analysis of the rules has PF2 feeling more foreign than familiar... which is why I'm looking to ground that in the reasoning of the changes. I'm not looking to hate on PF2 or anything like that. I want to like it.
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@Areks, thanks for clearing that up. The conversation we had, is very similar to the one I have had with most of those considering any sort of tower NAP. Not a problem. You provided me with something with an understanding that I would correctly articulate its purpose. I never got the chance to do that with Aragon leadership and then one of them decides to propagandize it for his own purpose, the least I could do is set the record straight.
Let me preface this statement by saying that I am no longer the Thane Blade of Pax Aeternum and a State Representative of Callambea. 15 cr hours of College, my transition out of the military, and my family take up just about all my time. I voluntarily stepped down from that role. That said, Cheatle shared the map linked above with me willingly when we were engaged in a conversation about a different subject entirely. He asked me if the NC would consider a NAP with Everbloom... I didn't know. I said I'd bring a proposal back to the Northern Coalition. I never pitched it. I told folks within the EoX about it and a day or two later, I stepped down. There was no talk dividing up to the map or anything dastardly like that. It was a simple premise. "No touchy touchy during War of the Towers". It wasn't "target other folks, not us." It was "we'll worry about defending our stuff and not attacking you if you promise to do the same." No other parties were discussed. As Cheatle said, the map was given to me and we spoke about EVERYONE that had a settlement having a solid foundation. The developers have said it from early on... you will have to work together to succeed. Smaller settlements will make sacrificial lambs out of themselves if they do not begin to organize and get bigger, however they decide to. The title of the thread may as well read, "Attention!!! People are going to play Pathfinder Online!!"
First off... thank you Goblinworks! Even in the Alpha state, the game is entertaining and I've played for about 15 hours now. We've come a long way since the technology demo. So, first off... right out of the gate, everything is a little clunky... its an Alpha, I get it. It was not too hard to get my bearings. Once I found out CTRL (Run) was a toggle, not a hold, I was good to go. I've heard others say that that the "look" feature and "turn" feature were off a bit, but they were slightly slower than a FPS for me which is just right for an MMO that I am playing. So now I go to train. What do I train? I want to be a fighter/rogue. I press F11 and bring up the "I forget what its called window". The window basically tells you the things you need to do to get achievements. So I look at Fighter 1. I'm not sure why, but the details of Fighter 1 appear in a transparent window behind the F11 window, so they are kinda hard to make out... but you can move the F11 window. More on this in a sec. So I go to the fighter trainer and want to train me some fighter feats. There's a big list of feats. So I hover over one. Nothing. I click on it. Still nothing. In game, before you purchase the feat, no information about said feat is displayed. I open up F11 and match two of them up and purchase. I purchase all the stuff necessary from the fighter trainer and head over to the Dreadnaught trainer. I purchase everything I need from the Dreadnaught trainer. No achievement or anything pops up. I press F11 and go over the list again. I think I've bought everything... but there is really no way to tell. Instead of having that transparent word bubble appear for the requirements for role achievements, I think a color coded bullet list would be more suitable. When I press F11 and click on Fighter 1, all the requirements should expand below it. If I have satisfied a requirement, it can be green. If I haven't but it is available to me for purchase, it can be yellow. If I can't purchase it yet, (for whatever reason) it can be red. Now for the trainers... you can't move the trainer window. Its locked... or I didn't know where to grab it or how to unlock it. Once in the trainer, hovering over the feat should give you some clue as to what it does via a text wrap version of the transparent word bubble we have for the F11 window. Clicking on it should give you the full low down on what buying that feat does. Clicking "False Edge 2" should tell me what the attack is and what the increase is compared to "False Edge 1". If "False Edge 2" increases my STR by .33 it should say that there. If False Edge 2 is a requirement for "Fighter 5" it should say that. The Unavailable Feats tab does a decent job of this, but I'd still like more information. At this point I tabbed out and started bringing up various guides. (Thanks to everyone that made those possible!) I figured out where I wanted to go with my character and tabbed back over... crashing the game for some reason. Reloaded that game, went out, killed some stuff, harvested some stuff. Collision is turned on for the harvesting nodes which I thought odd... until I was pulling some mobs via ranged attack and backed right up against a log node and 4 melee mobs were on me. After a second or two, I jumped over it and thought, "Wow that was a pain in the butt." but I kind liked the idea of having to be aware of my surroundings. There is some weird mouse recenter thing going on that is annoying during combat and lead to me looking at my character and having to move the camera to see the mobs and where I was going again. At first I thought this was due to lag or a simple glitch, but it happened quite frequently during my time playing... but only occurred during combat. Aside from that, combat was smooth PvE wise. There is a little delay... not sure from what, but the mobs are slow to react, which could be attributed to a "surprise round" and after mobs are dead, if you have an attack queue, it still goes off. No issue at all from my perspective. So I gathered and killed and gathered and killed. Time to try my hand at crafting. Or refining. Well, from the looks of it, they are identical, but they aren't. I had enough stuff to refine a stave and twine for a bow, but no varnish. I will say this, even in Alpha... the whole crafting/refining system is robust. The recipe drops are a little skimpy and you have to know where to go to harvest and what to kill to salvage, but over all, not too shabby and has LOTS of potential. Why do some folks have a red triangle to the right of their health bar? No idea. I accidentally clicked a question mark while trying to trade and ended up smacking the person trying to give me a bow. That was awkward. A bit of a slight panic on my part... I didn't know if I was gonna get attacked or what, but it took me a moment to whisper an apology. It'd be nice to be able to "lock-sheath weapons" in town and turn it off later once you know what you are doing. So I'm a clicker... I like to click my hot bar buttons. The primary / secondary weapons swapper in between the 1-3 and 4-6 keys is VERY annoying. Trade. Trade was bugged in town so we had to leave town to trade. After I accepted, there was like a post-accept offer thing that you had to click as well. I don't know what the function of that was besides having you reconfirm your trade. All in all, I had fun... lots of fun. No PvP because I wanted to be able to visit town. I'll probably test it out next weekend. I'm sure most of the stuff I mentioned above has already been mentioned by someone else and they'll get around to changing some things based on their priority and I'm totally fine with that. Most things, like trade in Callambea being bugged, are annoying at best and none of which significantly impaired the ability to play the game. The game is very playable in its current state. It won't knock your socks off, but the ground work for most things is there. What I did notice is this... the primary content currently is PvE and Escalations. Now PvE is fun but in its current state gets very repetitive very quickly. Now I know once there are merchants and storage and loot drops from PCs, that PvP will increase, but if you want to be welcomed in town, you're kind of handcuffed. PFO was marketed as a game where players would be each others content. I'm hoping War of the Towers will bring more PvP content to the table. Still, a large portion of the players that are invested in their Settlement will be primarily defensive wanting to ensure their settlements get every edge that they can for OE. I hope that PvP is encouraged in other ways as well to off-set the redundancy of PvE this early on. While I am a bit concerned, the progress that Goblinworks has made thus far is very encouraging and I cannot wait for EE to kick off! -Areks
That's fine. I appreciate their contribution as well. I just found the announcing of winners "here" as opposed to "there" without us knowing about the contest a bit odd. I pay pretty close attention to the boards and thought that I might have missed something. Again, it was the announcement of the winners to a contest I knew nothing about that I found curious... not the audience to which the contest was open to.
I just think the particular reasons in this case are pretty flimsy Hence the winner of LR2 (The only other organization with over 100 folks) picking the spot Andius wanted to go for.... and the devs applauding their decision as "strategic". PLENTY of flimsy there.
Hmmmm. It begins to look like a plan. After all, it was Gpunk who asked that, as 'spokesperson' for Freevale's council, he be the one to handle all communications with other groups and bring all matters back for discussion and decisions. You didn't see others participating because Gpunk (and other Blunt Logic members) specifically asked others not to... so that we could speak with one voice. That's very interesting. It was in a voip conversation with yourself and KC where we decided to use the EoX forums to house the NC forum. I personally invited you three times to come there and make an account to get involved and I know I also invited KC at least once. In fact I encouraged all leaders of companies within the NC to do the same in that same conversation. The fact that no one besides Gpunk did is very sad and unfortunate. All I know is the offer was personally extended by myself to you and Kobold over voip multiple times in the same conversation, while Gpunk was present and after he left. Why you guys never showed up, I have no idea and will not speculate but the offer still stands for ANY leader within ANY settlement that is part of the NC to take part in the discussions we have in the NC forum. Hell, Aragon has every single company leader signed up and actively taking part. Just sayin.
Do not misunderstand my question. The "LOW HANGING FRUIT" ie Slayer, Warpriest... seem to only vary mechanics that would already be in game. Bloodrager is not something that I would consider Low hanging fruit. I'm not saying SHIFT focus from base classes. I fully expect base classes to be implemented first. I am not asking for otherwise. But "studied target" of the Slayer seems like something that is already in the works for Assassination. This product, ACG, as a whole kind of echoes of what PFO is doing with focusing on skillsets vs classes.
So looking over the playtest for the soon to be released Advanced Class Guide.
A lot of these combinations will be available throughout EE. Now I understand that the focus is going to go towards all the classes in the Core Rule Book, but this really seems like "low hanging fruit" Lee talked about in a previous interview. Like simple small modifications to bring Drow into the game. I am just curious if these new classes are even on the radar. Slayer sounds particularly delicious which is one of the reasons why I am asking.
Callambea welcomes Sponsored Charter Companies, Private Charter Companies, Sponsored Citizens, and Free Agents!! Click HERE for more information on how you can call Callambea home! Alignment: Lawful Neutral. Our word is our bond, and is readily seen in the clear and comprehensive steps we take with any form of agreement or contract (SEE: Free Trade Agreement). Neutrality is simply the resulting stance we take; trade requires an even keel and sharp focus on neutrality in order to foster growth and continued relationships with trade entities. Callambea's Role: We plan on being the premier trading hub in the River Kingdoms! If you want it, then you can purchase it here at Callambea, at a decent price even! Though the focus is on trade, nearly every playable role has a supporting part in trade. Callambea has large goals for our presence in Golarion, and fully plan to make a lasting positive influence on the community. Accepted Player Roles: Can you sell your skill, your craft, or your sword arm? If you can make a profit at it, then you are welcome here! From resource gathering, crafting at all levels, merchant work and the protection of those goods, there will be a need for all classes and roles. Actively seeking out violators of Callambean law and trade will be fully supported.
Pax Aeternum (Political CC composed of our leaders, RP and Landowners)
High Thane (Settlement Leader) - The Leader of Callambea
Settlement Rule: Oligarchy. Major Settlement Level items are voted on by the Thanes. Every chance is made for items to be openly discussed with the membership body, officers and leadership council of Callambea, time and information sensitive restraints considered.
Callambea has the honor of being: A Signatory of the Roseblood Accord.
Rain starts to pelt down. From a building where much commotion is eminating from, a large framed man stumbles out in front of the travelling troupe. "Lads... Its not beer..." Areks holds up his three mugs and tries to drink from the two in his left hand at once. "Its ale... And not just any ale... Its Warstein ale! One of the many things dwarves of Callambea can do right! Come inside the Talking Head... Areks motions up to the sign for the Talking Head Tavern. "You look like you could use a mug or twelve." Areks opens the door to the Talking Head and motions for the troupe to follow him.
You could always convince Settlement B to join your nation. That's the preferred answer. But if B doesn't want to do business or find terms acceptable, well, I guess that is one of the primary reasons to play the game. The case and point of Golgotha and Canis is a great example. What if they don't get along. Golgotha should be able to take and use that POI. From my understanding of the mechanics, they can. That doesn't increase the training and support potential in regards to variety. Golgotha would have to conquer Canis and assume control of the settlement hex itself to diversify training.
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