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Tridus wrote:

Bruno Mares wrote:

To Mark and the other devs: Will the spellcasting classes still getting less feats than the other classes? This makes no sense. Everyone gets they proficiencies improving and still get feats, but when spellcasters do they need to "lost/give up" a feat? Too sad... :(

And why does it take until level 12 to get Expert proficiency in spells? They went way overboard on the nerf casters bandwagon and it really shows up in this type of thing.

Actually spellcasting proficiency is a nerf to everybody else except the casters.

Well, for wild druid, for example, the importance of spellcasting proficiency is doubtful. I would rather take more wild or other Druid's feats instead. I will probably not cast offensive spells at all.

Good to see much improvement with wild shapes. The new Wild Morph looks very intriguing. However there are still some concerns.

First of all, the pest form. It still lacks utility, despite the big improvements, IMHO. The only thing you can use it for is to crawl and a bit of fly after 4 spell level. Why do not you give it more movement options and senses if it is supposed to be used only for movement and sensing? By the way, the range of scent is still unspecified.

Animal form. Is the shark still unable to breathe underwater? Is that really intended? :-)

I hope you don't mind me mentioning some other spells close to the druid question
Plant form 6 level (heightened) damage did not get more dice, while the damage bonus was reduced.

Balefull polymorph. Unclear, how exactly the target is changed. So I transform a fighter into a frog. Does it still have 20 strength and 22+ AC? What about medium size and speed 25? Can it move or only make will saves?

Shapechange. It is not clear what exactly do we get. I can guess that it just copy the effect of the form spells from before. What benefit does it provide, compared to previous versions (I mean, for 20 lvl Druid)?
So no Monstrocity Form, but what about heightened Dragon Form? Does heightenning to 8 spell level count against the restriction?

FYI, those *are* at least available "instead of ethnic one" (or regional) because Elven and Orcish are Common access languages for ALL Inner Sea characters...

Not by RAW as I understand. It is written that you can choose from the list of common languages only if your Intelligence score is

This tells you the languages that members of your character’s

ancestry speak at 1st level, as well as a list of additional
languages common among members of that ancestry. If
your character’s Intelligence score is 14 or higher at 1st
level, you can select one of the bonus languages from this
list for your character to speak in addition to her ancestry
language or languages.

In bonus languages for human we also have

At 1st level, if your Intelligence score is

14 or higher, you can also select one of
the languages from the list of common
languages on page 40 or from other
languages you have access to.

Note that, dwarves and halflings, for example, are not able to get orcish even with 14 Intelligence as it is not on theri Bonus languages list.

It looks not logical that half-elf and half-orc can't get their language (elven or orcish) now. It should be made available at least to be taken instead the ethnical one.

Well, Druid and Monk archetypes seem flawed.
1) All martial class archetypes provide training in new weapons and armor (the latter potentially gives +1 or +2 AC). Monk gives you only unarmed Attack proficiency - the thing you already have (wizard does not, but that do not count) and make it a weapon. However, to get the defence - unarmored expert - you have to spend a class feat. Is that +1 AC worth it? I doubt.
2) All caster class archetypes provide feats that enable their non-feat class features (cleric gives domain, wizard gives arcane school ect.). Druid gets nothing. Only Order skill and anathema.

I also want to note the contrary situation with powers. Now each of the powers belongs to only one class. However they all are moved to Spell Descriptions chapter, making it harder to read. It is the same as if all class feat desctiptions were moved to the Feats chapter. Very inconvenient if those things are not common for many classes.

The designers seem just not to follow the design rules they made.
I have to point out similar issue with polymorph spells. Most of them are ...form spells that share the rules with only numbers changing. Those rules could be generallized in the Polymorph section in spell traits, but the best solution is to combine all those spells into one (or three to distinguish utility form and arcane list form) as it was done for summon monster, heal and all other spells.

For the initial atribute/feat/etc. topic , I really miss a convenience table which would show those things everybody get. This can also include spells slots table it is totally the same for all casters. It would be a lot easier for class entries describing only differences from this general table.

Well, the -form spell issue is not only the wild druid concern and probably should have a separate discussuin under spells topic.

All the wild shape forms give 100% static stat blocks.

I think that Paizo made this to simplify the spells and let the player not to calculate the ststs. Why ther decided that the calculations are hard is unclear as we do them for the character itself. For me it would be best if the forms just tweaked the ability scores as it was before: let the animal form redefine the strength score to be 18 (22 for heightened) with magical +1 and it solves all problems:

If you make a table, you will find that each level you are about the same as a fighter with 4 strength, some d8 weapon with level-matched potency rune, nonmagical dexterity-matched armor. All for free. This consideration neglects some other things like feats and magic. The fighter has his feats, but forms also give you Athletics, damage types, movement types and senses.
We have some problems with scaling at 18-19 levels, when the monstrosity form do not scale and is not included into wild shape.

What I do not understand is why all those forms-spells are separated into different spells, being effectively all the same. The differences are minimal. It could be just one spell, heightenning from 1 to 10 spell levels like "summom monster". Well 3 spells actually to separate utility form, battle form and probably magical form (for arcane spell list).

Druid vestments are required for scaling from level 14 onward. This leads to investing in feats that ultimately become costumes rather actual abilities.

These costumes give quite good damage, movement types and senses. Probably, the price gap is too heigh: you need to buy all the gear in addition to the vestment to get those +4.

A battle cleric will have 10(level)+4(Str)+1(quality)+2(potency) for a total of 17. Melee classes will be even higher.

As I understand, quality and potency do not stack, as both are item bonus.

And Elemental Form is 5 spell level. So you actually can use it as prepared from 9th. At 10th level druid is just able to use it through the Wild Pool.
So they are practically equal. That's Balance :- ))

For the melee classes, they will be very disappointed if a druid (full caster) performs the same in their trade :- )

I am not totally against strength, but constitution still looks more appropriate for the ability.
First, metaphysically, to sustain the form you rather endure the changes then hold them with brute force. You do it with your whole body, not only muscules. It is "how many times you can endure it". Like fortitude saving throw for polymorph spells (see Baleful Polimorph).
Second, strength comes online for the wild form only at 10 lvl, when the vestment appears (or not :-), while everything constitution gives you (hp, fort save) are allways with you. Wild shape (properly heightened and chosen) is usually better then level+6 attack, which is effectively Strength 22 character. Considering magic items you can get Strength 18 from the belt, so 10 base strength attack differs from 20 base strength attack only by +2.
Third, constitution is marked as secondary skill for druid, but strength is not. Of course it can be changed, but it is confusing for now.
Last, you allways can have heigh strength and constitution if you want. But now you are forced to have heigh strenght. What if I don't want to have heigh strength and to be a melee character? I only want more shapeshifts a day.

I haven't read every class word for word, but I don't think any character in the game gets better than trained with light armor.

Paladin gets master in light armor. Nobody else. He also gets legendary in heavy. Maybe they just mixed them up?