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i don't mind using Eldritch Heritage to Cherry Pick Sylvan for 2 feats

as long as my fighter can take 2 feats to Cherry pick a quadruped eidolon


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Well, the dungeons of course have to be adjusted to meet their massive power.

Ha ha ha ha. :''D

and if you do that, then the non-power-gamed characters in the same group lose their viability.


Icyshadow wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,

in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.
Race points mean nothing when you can through strategically placed flaws and careful ability choice, build a 10 point race that outshines a 25 point race.
This is all that's needed to be said when people bring up the ARG Race Design "rules". ^^

i don't use Race Points; i eyeball everything and see whether or not it looks good, takes about 5 minutes, i make a rough comparison to something as powerful as dwarves or whatever.


Dwarves make Good Empyreal Sorcerers too. which was the bloodline tax for dwarves.

Dwarves have massive bonuses to Fortitude and Will Saves 85% of the time, and even without the glory of old trait, if you take Steel Soul. you have +5/+4/+5 which is equivalent to the favored class bonus of a 15th level human barbarian, 18th level if they take glory of old. at least if they take the saves that matter.

in fact, Dwarven Barbarians are Saving Throw Kings

the classes a Dwarf is a little weakened at are

Sorcerer (Except Empyreal Sorcerers)

Oracle

Summoner

Bard

Paladin (Steel Soul Cancels out Cha Penalty for saves, being behind 2
LOH uses hurts though)

Ninja (without a rogue talent tax or 4 monk levels)

Classes the Dwarf Truly Excels at

Druid; (Screw Talking to Animals, you are either a caster or a pouncer. make up some stuff about Feng Shui or Geomancers and you are golden)

Empyreal Sorcerer; (High Will Save, Decent Fort; not as squishy as most Sorcs, you miss the favored class bonus and paragon surge, but you have surviveability)

Inquisitor; (Inquisitors don't need charisma. they do just fine without it. conversion inquisition turns dwarves into amazing inquisitors.)

other classes the dwarf does well at

anything without a charisma focus that benefits from the save boost and extra hit points.


lemeres wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Lord Pendragon wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
there was a 3.5 sourcebook that allowed PCs to take nymphs and succubi as familiars around 8th-10th level or so. the only downside was, was that they were small and had similar changes to the young template.
So not just a submissive sex slave, but an underaged submissive sex slave? Oooi.

the book had a lot of details on slavery, a variety of forms of slavery

and an underaged nymph or succubus need not be a sex slave

they could be

a maid in training

a library assistant or intern in training

a surrogate daughter for the desperate wizard with desires to be a parent

or even

a chore girl

i had characters that used them, not sexually, but as surrogate daughters because they couldn't become parents.

Most of those options sounds like some kind of twisted set up for... certain movies...So basically, you have not actually dissuaded the perception much.

But I'll excuse that since most of your suggested familiars can at least look fairly human with just a minimum of disguise, no? Some of the official Paizo options have the ability to disguise itself as a child too (at least I think the Cassisian does)

Compared to the strange chaos snakes, tiny dragons, and forces of freaking nature seen on the rest of the list, a small humanoid would at least make a useful prop when trying to be inconspicuous. I mean, who expects the person walking around with a 5 year old of being the rebel wizard that leads Le Resistance? Or something of that nature. I still think I'd prefer a familiar that could go invisible, but meh.

i like the familiar that can pretend to be a child. very inconspicuous, please also comes with the option of UMD, SLAs, diplomacy checks, and the like. sometimes, it is easier for the familiar to speak if she can pass for human

but i wasn't thinking of the setup for adult films

i like the advantage of a less conspicuous familiar

invisible familiars can still be detected at higher levels, and are likely to be suspected, which is why i prefer familiars that can pretend to be human.

another thing i do

is look for odd custom animals to make familiars out of that not many people expect

such as doves, butterflies, rabbits, and the like.

or 3.5 options/AP options for improved familiars that if they can't pass for human, are at least inconspicuous enough to not draw excessive attention.


havoc xiii wrote:

If native outsiders were supposed to have dark vision and martial weapon proficiency....don't you think it'd I don't know be in their racial write up?

I know crazy idea, but I mean it kinda makes sense, no?

they had to save letter count

so they make you have to search the bestiaries for the list of weapon proficiencies

the Rhakshasa, Couatl, and Janni are also native outsiders, as is the Oni.

so it is clearly not the fact they possess the native subtype


Diego Rossi wrote:
Quandary wrote:

As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.

But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".

The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.

No, Quandary, the Outsider type say:

"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." and as the traits in the Aasimar entry note otherwise, listing what traits he has. You can argue that those are added trait but it is really a stretch.

The native subtype don't say anything like that, so it is not substituted by what is in the Aasimar character entry. A Native outsider has the Native outsider subtype traits as there is nothing in the subtype traits that say that they can substituted.

for it to count as noting otherwise, the bestiary entry (not a dev ruling) would have to explicitly state something like

"An Aasimaar Character's weapon proficiencies go by her class rather than her creature type."

but there is no such entry in the Aasimaar

meaning their type based proficiencies, are those of the outsider, which doesn't include the "or by character class" clause either.


Quandary wrote:

As Lumiere wrote "the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.", the HD-dependent features section isn't in question.

But there's no trait replacement there.
Not being mentioned =/= "being noted in a creature's entry", in fact they mean the exact opposite.
"Have the following racial traits" =/= "Have no traits except the following".

The (Native) Outsider (sub) type states they need to breathe, (eat, and sleep), as Type traits, not HD-linked effects.
That is not mentioned in the Aasimar entry. There is no reason to grant those Type traits but not others also not mentioned.

and those traits, include Darkvision and Simple/Martial Weapon Proficiency


the only truly overpowering monster abilities in my opinion, are the ones that ignore your armor, don't allow a save, or ignore your hit points

such as many incorporeal creatures, most undead, and the like


Lord Pendragon wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
there was a 3.5 sourcebook that allowed PCs to take nymphs and succubi as familiars around 8th-10th level or so. the only downside was, was that they were small and had similar changes to the young template.
So not just a submissive sex slave, but an underaged submissive sex slave? Oooi.

the book had a lot of details on slavery, a variety of forms of slavery

and an underaged nymph or succubus need not be a sex slave

they could be

a maid in training

a library assistant or intern in training

a surrogate daughter for the desperate wizard with desires to be a parent

or even

a chore girl

i had characters that used them, not sexually, but as surrogate daughters because they couldn't become parents.


PRD types

note the difference in the humanoid listing and the outsider one


Ravingdork wrote:
Gnoll Coward wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory

this?

That's it! Thanks.

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
James deleted that ruling because i think he retracted it
Proof? It sure looks like it's still there to me.

i'm merely guessing until i saw it later

but the outsider type states that all outsiders gain the outsider traits unless stated otherwise

darkvision and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, none of the planetouched have an entry to contradict this

in fact, the humanoids entry, specifically adds the following clause "or by character class."

this clause does not show up on the outsider proficiencies


the outsider proficiencies do not list the "or by character class clause"

which means that every outsider gets them, including 0HD ones

Outsider:

Features [b]

An outsider has the following features.

d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.

[b] Traits

An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

note the lack of an "or by character class" clause

and in the case of the Suli, it does not note otherwise, meaning the Suli gets darkvision

and all published planetouched do not note otherwise in their racial traits for these proficiencies

Humanoid:

Features

A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

d8 Hit Die, or by character class.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
One good save, usually Reflex.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die or by character class. The following are class skills for humanoids without a character class: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival. Humanoids with a character class use their class's skill list instead.

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

the features section, is dependent on HD, the traits section are not.


DrDeth wrote:

You may get Trapfinding with other classes and archetypes but only two can get Trapspotter, which in a world with Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps will be needed.

Try a half-orc Scout with falchion, all you have to do is charge or later move 10' to get SA. And, you build up to Spring attack and Viola!- SA every round.

Archaeologist can get it

so can crypt breaker

though back in the Gygaxian Era, there was no trapspotter, Gygaxian rogues literally rolled to search every square until they got a 20 and slowed the games down, modern rogues do that too.


Ravingdork wrote:

That's odd. It used to link to an old thread I had started in which I had asked about aasimar/outsider proficiencies, to which James responded with "aasimar don't get proficiencies as outsiders." <-- paraphrased from memory

EDIT: I found this, but I don't think it's the same thread.

James deleted that ruling because i think he retracted it

Planetouched recieving proficiency in all martial weapons is truly no more powerful than the races with weapon familiarity or the tengu's swordtrained.

you only really have 2 hands, so at most, you are using 1 or 2 of those weapons.

so really, it doesn't matter how many martial or exotic weapons you a proficient with

but the tengu, elf, dwarf, orc, half orc, gnome, half elf, hobgoblin, drow, svirfneblin, and i beleive duergar get a bunch of martial and exotic weapons. hell, the tengu gets the katana, wakazashi, falcata, curve blade, and nodachi. any of these i'd rate better than most martial weapons.

it is just, the Aasimaar, Tiefling, Fetchling, Suli, Undine, Ifrit, Sylph and Oread, have their own weapon familiarity trait by virtue of creature type, that while being redundant for a large variety of classes that could benefit, helps certain 3/4 bab classes, but the previous list gets exotics these 8 don't get.

the tengu has the strongest weapon familiarity traits in the game

planetouched have an easily replaceable, slightly more versatile, and slightly less focused weapon familiarity by virtue of being outsiders

nothing is said about the native subtype being an exception

the Eidolon is a highly specific exception. but then, big E is loaded with rules exceptions left and right


Kudaku wrote:

How is it a fallacy? One spell takes 6 seconds to have its full effect, one takes 66 seconds. In situations where you have a few minutes to spare it's not an issue, while midfight the difference is crucial. IE one spell is useable both in and out of combat while the other is useful only out of combat. The value of that difference might vary from group to group, but surely you agree that there is a difference between the two spells?

Also, for my post I edited the numbering of the questions and forgot to change the start of question 4 - it's meant to refer to question 3 when it asks "if question 2 was answered with a yes", not question 2 >__<. Sometimes I really miss a long-duration edit button on these forums.

Diego, could you post a page reference or quote the fluff you've mentioned? I looked the spell up in the ISWG (the source for the PFSRD version of the spell at least) and there didn't seem to be anything listed there, other than the [Evil] tag - the spell description makes no mention of Asmodeus.

hell, you could give good characters access to celestial healing, which uses angel tears, and it would be no less balanced.

fluff and roleplaying consequences should not be used as a means to balance mechanics. it is the paladins fallacy.

the code of conduct and alignment restriction that serve as a straightjacket, limit a paladin's options, rather than actually encourage creativity

in fact, instead of 9 paladin variants and 3 monk variants i'd rather we have

a paladin and martial artist class of unrestricted alignment without the baggage. not every paladin is Sir Gallahad and even deities make mistakes. in fact, opening up paladin to at least, any non-evil would open up many concepts.

but the same can be said of the anti paladin and any non-good

i want to play my holy knight of freedom (Chaotic Neutral), my Templar (Lawful Neutral), my benevolent knight errant (Neutral Good) or my blackguard (Lawful evil)

the paladin classes can do none of these without producing 7 more classes

but i think the game should be divorced from alignment, and that alignment be dropped entirely.


Quandary wrote:
I wasn't aware Pixies were options for a Familiar...?

they were a 5th-6th level or so familiar option in 3.5

plus they are an option in some old AP somewhere, can't remember which one though

but i tend to play with a lot of 3.5 material

and there was a 3.5 sourcebook that allowed PCs to take nymphs and succubi as familiars around 8th-10th level or so. the only downside was, was that they were small and had similar changes to the young template.


take a fused Aegis with a greatsword and 20 strength before fusion

2d6 base
+9 strength bonus
+3 improved damage customization
+3 power attack
+1 psionic weapons customization

all it requires is the medium armor form with psionic weapons customization

it deals 2d6+16, bypasses Dr/magic and counts as ghost touch with any weapon you please

and all you need is a 20 strength
the medium armor psychic armor form which provides brawn and improved damage for free
the psionic weapons customization, which treats any nonmagic weapon as a +1 weapon and any non ghost touch weapon as a ghost touch weapon
brawn adds +2 strength, improved damage adds 3 points of damage

you have a to hit of +7 for 2d6+16

yes, with psionics, you can have an extremely fragile first level character that deals an average of 23 damage at will at 1st level.

the build is a 1 trick pony though


Scavion wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

for the beguiler/spellcloak

i think it needs

Spontaneous Int based casting of spells up to 6th level

a form a sneak attack like damage that is somehow easier to set up

a focus more on the rogue role and less on the caster role
trapfinding

a means of using their high int in combat

base skill points competitive with a bard

So basically never play a rogue again?

i hope it is competitive with the bard, inquisitor, psionic warrior, ranger, alchemist, and other 3/4 bab 6th level casters

that means it will have to outshine the rogue and even then it makes the rogue look weak

it would be to Int, what the rogue is to Dex


proftobe wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Quote:

Artanthos wrote:

You can have better saves, better AC and equal damage to a fighter. It just takes a greater degree of system mastery.
I agree with saves and AC, but the damage output? No, I have not seen that, unless it was situational or you gimp the fighter to hell and back, or have a potion quaffing monk chugging back buffs like there's no tomorrow.

Look upthread just a few posts for comparisons between monk and fighter builds.

You'll see a monk matching a fighter point for point, without relying on potions.

Your race and archetype did the vast majority of the heavy lifting. The falchion build works with damn near every race and isnt even the two handed archetype. Your race isn't even the standard tiefling it technically takes a feat to qualify for that race. What would your DPR look like if you were nearly any other race.

as of the blood of fiends companion, Variant tiefling heritages don't require a feat tax.

it supersedes council of thieves

but yeah, race and archetype did do the heavy lifting, plus the build is dependant on Ki which is a rarer resource than spell slots and limited means to recuperate

there are pearls of power, scrolls, wands and potions of spells, but no potions of ki restoration


Quandary wrote:

Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,

in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.

Race points mean nothing when you can through strategically placed flaws and careful ability choice, build a 10 point race that outshines a 25 point race.


Nicos wrote:

Your numbers are weird. +6 natural armor bonus? Arcane strike? It also shoudl be state that to have 3 attack at max bonus you are spending a ki.

And above all, you do not meet the prerequisites to take improved critical. Fix the buil and we will talk.

Armor of the pit provides +2 natural armor

barkskin provides a +4 enhancement bonus that lasts 100 minutes and costs a ki point

he is also abusing vows for extra ki

it is also 1 level 2 low for improved critical

and abusing the recent faq of SLAs allowing you to take arcane strike

it also uses the 1.5 strength bonus on 2handers that doesn't apply with flurry.

other than 2 easy to follow vows, it is abusing a specific tiefling subrace and milking the benefits of the subrace.

it doesn't prove monks are viable

just that Onispawn are the race made to make monks viable


captain yesterday wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Pharsasma has problems with the more evil uses of undead. she wouldn't have problems if you found a good aligned used for the reanimated bodies of the deceased.

using zombies to construct low income homes for the poor and homeless, or to sew cheap clothing for the poor and the naked is fine.

using zombies to combat evil necromancers is fine

as long as you don't actively murder for the sole purpose of adding to your zombie army

using zombies to save innocent lives is also fine.

i'd like to know how you plan on teaching mindless undead how to sew, my mind works just fine and i can barely do it:)

Mindless undead can still follow instructions, and may be programmed to perform certain mundane activities.

teaching a zombie to sew isn't any different from teaching them to cook

it is mostly a matter of time and practice

zombies and skeletons are MINDLESS they CAN'T learn from time and practice, when you sew you have to think about the next step, what happens when you come to the end of the seam, etc. i just don't believe a zombie or skeleton is capable of such intricate projects. maybe repetitively hammering a nail, but considering they're MINDLESS cant make adjustments when the nail gets skewed or bent, they just keep hammering at it. i think when they put programming in for zombies and such it was for orders like "guard this room from anyone not wearing a red hat" or "row this boat until we reach shore" not "sew a cross stitch" or "add lace to all these dresses" sorry but your argument is just wrong, i'm sure others would agree with me (especially tailors and house builders) sewing and construction are not for the mindless dead.

is a Zombie whom is programmed to help contribute to building houses or sewing clothes? any different from a robot with the same programming?

Robots and Zombies are both mindless. they are both intended to follow orders

yet many sci fi authors have no issues with Robots sewing dresses, so why can't a zombie with similar programming and a powerful enough necromancer setting up a similar level of complex protocol any different.

ignoring the basic premise of stuff like terminator

we have plenty of Sci-Fi works were robots are used to perform physical activities.

why can't we have a fantasy work where Zombies? the fantasy equivalent to robots in the fact they are mindless and programmed? achieve the same results.


captain yesterday wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Pharsasma has problems with the more evil uses of undead. she wouldn't have problems if you found a good aligned used for the reanimated bodies of the deceased.

using zombies to construct low income homes for the poor and homeless, or to sew cheap clothing for the poor and the naked is fine.

using zombies to combat evil necromancers is fine

as long as you don't actively murder for the sole purpose of adding to your zombie army

using zombies to save innocent lives is also fine.

i'd like to know how you plan on teaching mindless undead how to sew, my mind works just fine and i can barely do it:)

Mindless undead can still follow instructions, and may be programmed to perform certain mundane activities.

teaching a zombie to sew isn't any different from teaching them to cook

it is mostly a matter of time and practice


Marthkus wrote:

Monks get all great saves and then class features that help deal with things that need saving against.

Immune to poison and disease
+2 vs mind effecting
Evasion and improved evasion

Slow fall for pit spells and SR for extra fun.

Monks will also have decent dex, wis, and con

Best saves bar none.

Superstition Barbar and paladins get better fort, but a monks is immune to many fort saves anyways.

but those same defensive monks are also the easiest characters to ignore because they focus on defense to the exclusion of offense

they go from "tank" to "last survivor" and any encounter that can kill this "monk" can cause a TPK because you are too focused on damaging the one PC you can simply ignore.


Rynjin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Severely overpowered, as in they deal more damage on an unrestricted target list than any other class, and they get the defining class feature granting that damage at level 1.

...So?

They don't have THAT much of an advantage over other classes, and they lack some things others have.

Less skills than the Ranger, worse saves (or, well, worse saves with no DOWNSIDE, anyway, assuming they take Superstition) than the Paladin, and both classes have a situational leg-up in to-hit/damage over the Barbarian.

That's why they're the balanced martial classes. They each have strengths and weaknesses the others cover pretty well.

i'd rather have a ranger, barbarian, or paladin than a fighter, monk, or rogue as my group's frontliner.


Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with

You forgot the Sansetsukon

you have to waste a feat on that.

So, now I'm not allowed to spend feats to improve my damage either.

The list of restrictions people have to use to keep the "monks suck" statement true keeps growing.

If you apply enough build restrictions, any class can be made to suck.

you can spend the feat on it if you wish, i just wouldn't recommend it because it is only an extra point of damage over the temple sword.


time to get started on that human switch hitter ranger

i'm a newb at online builds so i may have difficulty with the formatting and avaialable resources.


Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with

You forgot the Sansetsukon

you have to waste a feat on that.


Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


let me point you to the ranger

bonus combat style feats without prerequisites

the monk gets what you're calling 'combat style feats' for free, too. He also has an easier time getting style feats than anyone else.

Style Feats? you mean those feats that were deliberately designed to fix the monk because they were a weak class. a 2 level dip gets me the ones i require, and allows me to more easily access the others with a minor skill tax. in fact, most style feats are better utilized by combatants who dip 2 levels in monk for the style feats and focus on their main preferred unarmed class

Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


+4 weapon or adamantium weapon

The monk gets adamantium weapons for free and he can't be disarmed.

Adamantium Weapon? you might be unable to be disarmed, but your enhancement bonus can be disarmed, and your greater magic fang spell can be dispelled. really, an extra 3,000 gold at level 13 is nothing to write home about

Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


spells

The monk gets ki powers instead. They aren't bound by spell slots.

they are bound by Ki points, which are a rarer resource than spell slots, but the advantage goes to the ranger because they can use wands and scrolls to expand their resources, a monk can't

Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


neutralize poison
Which he can use a few times a day, unlike the monk's immunity to poison which makes the monk able to use poison as a weapon without worry.

the chance of poisoning yourself is only 5% and most poisons have an easy fortitude save, in fact, poisons are so overpriced and so weak for what they do, that there is no real benefit to them. in addition, neutralize poison can be used on an ally instead of yourself

Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


good fortitude save
The monk gets all good saves, plus really good will and reflex and evasion and immunity to disease and spell resistance and the list goes on

ranger gets good fortitude and reflex, monk has better will. but for a monk to get the amazing reflex and will saves you mention. they sacrifice the majority of their ability to deal damage unless you use a highly specific and highly obscure weapon enchantment, or mythic tiers

Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


better feat selection
not really

i'd rate no prerequisites and even early entry on some valuable archery feats better than dodge, spring attack, or combat reflexes


Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


my issue with the class is the designers built them around being naked and unarmed, but so many superior options outshine being naked and unarmed, and monk accesses none of them.

Incorrect

Even the baseline monk can flurry with two-handed weapons.

He has no need to do so past the early levels, but it is an option.

what 2handers can a baseline monk flurry with? oh? Quarterstaff and Temple sword?

what a sorry list of weapon choices for 2handers to flurry with


Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

that would be the Sohei

the Sohei, Zen Archer, Martial Artist, Quinggong, and Master of Many Styles are the big 5 archetypes. the Archetypes the monk depends on to be Viable.

the Sohei has to be 12th level to flurry with both polearms and longbows, and 6th level to flurry with just one of the two.

at 18th level, they gain the ability to flurry with 3 weapon groups, but they have no bonus archery feats, and have to multiclass to get a mount because they don't get their own mount, just the ability to continue another classes mount progression.

The blanket statement was monks suck, fighters are better.

The challenge posted was: you post a fighter, I'll post a monk.

I won't tell you how to build the fighter if you don't tell me how to build my monk.

If all you care about is damage, play a barbarian, a class that is severely overpowered.

i don't post builds because i don't do them very well. all a build shows is not the merits of the class itself, but how good the builder is at minmaxing their class choice.

there is no point

barbarians are actually balanced with the ranger and paladin

i want to see a viable monk who doesn't depend on the big 5 archetypes.

the 4 weakest classes are Rogue, Fighter, Monk, and Cavalier


Nicos wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
Avh wrote:


What does the monk have ? Defenses. But defenses neither does win encounters nor it does give an advantage for non-combat situations.
The monk has speed, poison immunity, the ability to strike as adamantium, ki powers, stunning fist, an easier time getting style feats, and a lot more

Yes they have several abilities,and those abilities do not combine to make a good class.

Being diferent does not made them less bad as they are (except for several archetypes as note above)-

my issue with the class is the designers built them around being naked and unarmed, but so many superior options outshine being naked and unarmed, and monk accesses none of them.


Justin Rocket wrote:
Avh wrote:


What does the monk have ? Defenses. But defenses neither does win encounters nor it does give an advantage for non-combat situations.
The monk has speed, poison immunity, the ability to strike as adamantium, ki powers, stunning fist, an easier time getting style feats, and a lot more

let me point you to the ranger

bonus combat style feats without prerequisites

+4 weapon or adamantium weapon

spells

more skills

neutralize poison

large pouncing pet

good fortitude save

more HP

better feat selection


Justin Rocket wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:


This isn't 4th ed. Roles are not tied to classes. If you want a strong hard line (and there's no need to have one if you play a hit and run game - the lesson the Brits learned in the US Revolutionary War), then you can have a wizard cast a wall or an illusion or dominate the enemy or summon or any of a number of options.

Ok then, post the monk build (10th or 12th level) that do several things (besides runing fast) better than a barbarian(or ranger or alchemist, magi or inquisitor) or of the same level.

I will argue than the inquisotr is better at scouting, figthing and overall utility.

The Monk is not a Ranger, Alchemist, Magus, or Inquisitor. His standard for accceptance should not be for him to make as good a Ranger, Alchemist, Magus, or Inquisitor as someone who is actually those classes.

a Monk, lets see what they have

very few skill points, so skills aren't their niche

no spellcasting, so they clearly cannot be a caster

no decent ranged weaponry short of 2 ranged archetypes, so they cannot be ranged damage dealers

lets see what that leaves

Melee DPS

Tank

with their lack of synergy, they have to prioritize making their choice of being a squishy DPS that dies in one turn, or being an unyielding wall that cannot fight back.

something that is fixed by an optional rule called mythic tiers

but few people play with mythic tiers anyway


Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:


As for -staying- in the middle of an enemy group round after round, clearly, if the monk is targetting weak spots in the enemy's deployment, then he's not usually sticking round after round in one spot behind enemy lines. He's moving around behind enemy lines and jumping back and forth over the line of skirmish.
moving...And attacking once for pitiful amage? A barbarian is better skirmisher with a decent speed and pounce.

barbarian is indeed a better skirmisher

speed is good enough to qualify, not excessive, but useful enough

pounce

higher STR

more HP

with traits, they can have similar acrobatics or stealth

able to afford more int due to reduced MAD

not required to be an Onispawn Variant tiefling or not required to Possess Mythic Tiers to be effective

can use any weapon they please effectively, not just a temple sword or with archetypes, a composite longbow

The Barbarian is going to be facing off against the enemy brute. If Conan needs to get to the pointy hatted target on the enemy's back line, then he either 1.) has to receive an AoO from the enemy brute or 2.) make an acrobatics roll and make a half move (the monk's half move is probably greater than the Barbarian's half move by a lot), or 3.) make an acrobatics roll at -10. He *might* be able to fly if he's got access to that magic and, more significantly, flight is possible in the environment

before you get haste, most foes die in one lucky swing in most cases anyway

an when you do get haste, the barbarian is faster than the monk until 12th level when they break even

and your scenario assumes the barbarian starts next to the enemy brute

Barbarian pounces enemy caster, after Archer slaughters enemy brute for me, after the allied arcanist casts haste and after the allied divine caster helps the allied archer mop up the brute.


Artanthos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
can use any weapon they please effectively, not just a temple sword or with archetypes, a composite longbow

That archetype with the longbow.

It has full martial proficiency.

Flurry with a Polearm.

that would be the Sohei

the Sohei, Zen Archer, Martial Artist, Quinggong, and Master of Many Styles are the big 5 archetypes. the Archetypes the monk depends on to be Viable.

the Sohei has to be 12th level to flurry with both polearms and longbows, and 6th level to flurry with just one of the two.

at 18th level, they gain the ability to flurry with 3 weapon groups, but they have no bonus archery feats, and have to multiclass to get a mount because they don't get their own mount, just the ability to continue another classes mount progression.


Nicos wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:


As for -staying- in the middle of an enemy group round after round, clearly, if the monk is targetting weak spots in the enemy's deployment, then he's not usually sticking round after round in one spot behind enemy lines. He's moving around behind enemy lines and jumping back and forth over the line of skirmish.
moving...And attacking once for pitiful amage? A barbarian is better skirmisher with a decent speed and pounce.

barbarian is indeed a better skirmisher

speed is good enough to qualify, not excessive, but useful enough

pounce

higher STR

more HP

with traits, they can have similar acrobatics or stealth

able to afford more int due to reduced MAD

not required to be an Onispawn Variant tiefling or not required to Possess Mythic Tiers to be effective

can use any weapon they please effectively, not just a temple sword or with archetypes, a composite longbow


Pharsasma has problems with the more evil uses of undead. she wouldn't have problems if you found a good aligned used for the reanimated bodies of the deceased.

using zombies to construct low income homes for the poor and homeless, or to sew cheap clothing for the poor and the naked is fine.

using zombies to combat evil necromancers is fine

as long as you don't actively murder for the sole purpose of adding to your zombie army

using zombies to save innocent lives is also fine.


Martial, Martial, Martial! wrote:
brvheart wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

they have 7 ships and 1 fortress

i would count the fortress as worth 5 crews, or 12 crews total

i would charge 4 plunder per crew or 48 plunder

1 for wages

1 for supplies

1 for medical treatment, repairs, squibbing and the like

1 for protection and insurance bribes to the hurricane king to make sure he doesn't target your PCS' fleet

i would also recommend they keep a party slush fund for emergencies. a potions and wands budget

i would rate it equivalent to 3 shares for 8 shares, not counting the familiar, unless the familiar needs a share too.

48 plunder is a bit harsh, but I can see 1 per ship and 1 for the fortress, also something for the Hurricane King so I would call it 10 plunder each time. There aren't that many men stationed at the Rock to call it more than 1 crew IMHO. 2 for the Hurricane King might placate him for awhile, but Cheliax will be a problem sooner rather than later.

She's not saying 4 plunder for the crew, she's saying 1 plunder for the crew, 1 plunder for repair and maintenance, 1 plunder for ship's stores and 1 plunder's worth of bribes and tribute. That might be a touch high, but then again it might not.

Conservatively, assuming there have been no massive ship's battles, I'd say 1 for the crew, .5 for maintenance, .5 for stores, .5 for bribes and .5 for tribute. That's still 3 plunder per ship per period we are talking about - keeping in mind that a single good haul can easily net you 4-6 plunder , I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

a standard haul is 4-6 plunder

a good haul, including the ship itself, is about 10-15 plunder. assuming you sell the ship.

i'm also factoring the fortress towards this as well.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

it took a lot of effort to set up an AP in Numeria

i doubt we will really have an Alkenstar AP unless we rewrite how the Mana Wastes work. because as written, the only classes they won't utterly screw over are, the fighter, rogue, cavalier, and gunslinger.

ninja archetype will be screwed, Samurai are just a fancy cavalier archetype. barbarian will be heavily gimped.

the reason for that is, those 4 specific classes rely purely on Ex; abilities

That's not stopping them from doing the next module in Alkenstar.

do you really want an AP, let alone a module, that takes place in a setting where 80% of the classes have no real ability to contribute and where nobody can keep up at the high levels?

you are talking about a complete cutoff both from magic, and from supernatural abilities, and a complete shutdown of magic items.

Alkenstar is Gimpland for everyone

no casting, means no buffs and no healing. means martials die swiftly

pretty sure it has been said elsewhere that the mana wastes dont stop magic. Instead there are areas of wild magic which can have various random affects.

if i remember older versions of wild magic correctly

it involved the concept of either your magical working exceptionally well, working normally, being completely useless, or hindering you instead. depending on die rolls. and it did that for every spell

in other words, casters were still screwed, because the chances of your spells giving unintended negative results were drastically higher than your chances of getting intended possible results


Kyras Ausks wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


thing is, we have 15 PCs, and around 10 of them tend to be weapon users, this usually doubles around 7th level and doesn't account for pets.

no one going to hit up that 15 players thing... OK, i will, ya i bet anything other then open field combat would be lame in that group. you have a small country worth of heroes with in 30feet of each other.

using something like that to defend your point is a lot like saying "any thing other then ramps suck be and there should not be any stairs. oh, why?, because i have a wheel chair." you can't make that kinda assumption for every ones group, hell the only reasonable assumption is the iconic party made in PFS because its the only stander every one can see.

it dose not matter how lame a class(with in limits) can be the DM should be able to make it fun if not the DM should at every lest admit it as a flaw. it part of being a DM. i see a lot of blame on "weak" classes that should go to weak DM or GM whom need to take a second to see what they are doing

i know i don't play a standard game

but there should be alternatives for nonstandard groups

kingmaker and skull and shackles would theoretically work wonders for our playstyle

but yeah, indoor combat is kind of difficult with 15 PCs, Possibly 15 cohorts, and up to 10 pets

so we play a lot of custom campaigns tailored to our group size

Military/Pirate Crew/Etc type campaigns.


Tirisfal wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

it took a lot of effort to set up an AP in Numeria

i doubt we will really have an Alkenstar AP unless we rewrite how the Mana Wastes work. because as written, the only classes they won't utterly screw over are, the fighter, rogue, cavalier, and gunslinger.

ninja archetype will be screwed, Samurai are just a fancy cavalier archetype. barbarian will be heavily gimped.

the reason for that is, those 4 specific classes rely purely on Ex; abilities

That's not stopping them from doing the next module in Alkenstar.
do you really want an AP, let alone a module, that takes place in a setting where 80% of the classes have no real ability to contribute and where nobody can keep up at the high levels?
Give the wizard a gun.

giving the casters a firearm is not enough

pretty much every Alkenstarian might as well be a gunslinger so they can at least deal martial damage against touch AC


Kthulhu wrote:
Yeah...you're venturing back into creepy territory.

if i hadn't posted them, somebody else would have.

it happens every trap thread.


Odraude wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

it took a lot of effort to set up an AP in Numeria

i doubt we will really have an Alkenstar AP unless we rewrite how the Mana Wastes work. because as written, the only classes they won't utterly screw over are, the fighter, rogue, cavalier, and gunslinger.

ninja archetype will be screwed, Samurai are just a fancy cavalier archetype. barbarian will be heavily gimped.

the reason for that is, those 4 specific classes rely purely on Ex; abilities

That's not stopping them from doing the next module in Alkenstar.

do you really want an AP, let alone a module, that takes place in a setting where 80% of the classes have no real ability to contribute and where nobody can keep up at the high levels?

you are talking about a complete cutoff both from magic, and from supernatural abilities, and a complete shutdown of magic items.

Alkenstar is Gimpland for everyone

no casting, means no buffs and no healing. means martials die swiftly


Here's a Trap

Here's Another Trap

and these are the 2 most commonly known traps i know of


if "good is supposed to be hard." and "evil is supposed to be fast and easy." then wouldn't most of the population logically follow the evil path because it is fast, easy, and rewarding?

it is like video games with alignment systems. nearly all the time, most players will do the evil run because it is faster, easier, and more rewarding, and the overall easier path, unless they truly sought a challenge.


Caderyn wrote:

The problem with that is you are deliberately excluding yourselves from parts of the experience, I am personally a terrible actor (I cannot do any accents or anything), but I will always get involved in every facet of the game if its the planning our attacks on a fortress, being a party member at a social event (even if my PC is untrained at social skills I will still participate sure I might make it worse but I built the PC with those flaws so they should come up occasionally).

That you let people run these parts of the game for you kind of weakens you as roleplayers it makes you less versatile and gives you a rather skewed view of the game as apparently to you guys its all about having maximum diplomacy if you want to be the face (which is easy to do I guess but kind of irrelevant as most diplomacy DCs are between 15 and 30 so having a +72 does not make a difference).

there is no point when every time we try to find a way to include ourselves, the actor player interjects, ignores us, and leaves to kill stuff for him

so 85% of the game tends to be combat


it took a lot of effort to set up an AP in Numeria

i doubt we will really have an Alkenstar AP unless we rewrite how the Mana Wastes work. because as written, the only classes they won't utterly screw over are, the fighter, rogue, cavalier, and gunslinger.

ninja archetype will be screwed, Samurai are just a fancy cavalier archetype. barbarian will be heavily gimped.

the reason for that is, those 4 specific classes rely purely on Ex; abilities


MrSin wrote:
Toys? Those things you have fun with? What do you think this is, some sort of game for your amusement?

Pathfinder is a tabletop roleplaying Game. Games are an activity performed for entertainment and amusement

by Toys to play with, i mean Tools to work with.

Evil's toolkit is way too developed compared to good

Good isn't even the superior healing alignment

because evil has access to more guaranteed to work but more time consuming methods of healing.

why can't good characters capitalize on good versions of a few evil exclusive toys?

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