Well the Anathema is just damaging the local environment. But I don't feel that a 30ft radius is not enough to "damage the local environment." The ritual Control Weather probably can if you pull in unnatural weather. But that is the only one that competes with Storm of Vengeance. So you have nothing that can trigger your Anathema until at least 15th level. In addition to that its very reliant on DM/GM interpretation of what is going to be both unnatural and damaging... Unless you are actually using the only weather/storm spell in the game. The fact that casting Storm of Vengeance is Anathema to a Storm Druid is... insane. If you are the storm why can't you actually use it. I can cast Volcanic Eruption and Earthquake without consequence. But the Storm spell? Nope, lose your powers.
So Anathema is something that should have a meaningful effect on your character and the concepts and beliefs that shape these characters. All of the Anathema from the other orders are pretty good at this. However Storm Order is much less effective. "Creating unnatural weather patterns that could be damaging to the local environment (such as by using a 9th-level control weather ritual) is anathema to your order." This is very open to interpretation of your DM/GM as a first issue. Sooner or later that'll cause issues somewhere. Second this doesn't matter for your character until at earliest level 9 and that is assuming that you count 'Control Water' as weather. I don't. After that at 15th level you can learn 'Punishing Winds' which makes a tiny area of massive winds which it might count... maybe? Then the biggest one here is this thing. Storm Druid actually says, "Never, ever, cast the most powerful and only real storm spell in the book. Casting 'Storm of Vengeance' in any location that is not a city is Anathema to you. As a side note I realise you can be involved as a side participant in a control weather ritual prior to being good enough to lead it yourself and still do something Anathema to your order. However Storm Order as it stands doesn't effect you until high teir 3 90% of the time. Besides that when it does effect you its very much a question of what does the DM/GM think it means and which spells trigger it?
This is so painfully wrong that it's insane. You are thinking of Pathfinder 1e again and you need to stop. In Pathfinder 2e if you fail by 10 it's a critical fail no matter what you are doing. If you succeed by 10 you critically succeed no matter what you are doing. If there is a 25 point swing between the best and the untrained that means any check that actually challenges the best is an Automatic Crit Fail for the untrained. Likewise something that is pretty ok for everyone to try is an Automatic Crit Success for the best. They don't care what they roll. The 5 point swing means this doesn't happen. Skill checks have crit success and fail in this edition as well so anything you do is measured with that +/- 10 swing. DC 30 at level 20 means the best guy (using no stat bonuses) needs a 7 to succeed and a 17 to crit succeed. While the untrained fails on an 11 and crit fails on a 1. Now we are probably going to see other modifiers in play besides just the stat bonuses but keep these things in mind. If you got no level to untrained skills at all you would just auto crit fail everything you weren't trained in which would make the game horrific.
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat. Remove Blindness/Deafness Remove blindness/deafness cures blindness or deafness (your choice), whether the effect is normal or magical in nature. The spell does not restore ears or eyes that have been lost, but it repairs them if they are damaged.Regenerate
Legendary Medic seems to mimic BOTH of these effects, not just one of them. If I rip your eyes from your body the way Legendary Medic is worded, it can fix that. Cure Blind/Deaf... not so much. So before you rant about copying a 5th level ability also look at the fact that you are also copying a 13th level ability without expending any magic.
While this made me laugh really hard I still think this is a narrow interpretation of that ability. Just because a basic shield is +2 didn't mean that a legendary one isn't +5. Not do we have the full extent of the ability. Can you then shield block the damage? Can you build into spell turning/reflect? We just don't have the info yet.
So my only real concern here is with Heal. Define willing creature? If my friend is unconscious is he willing? How about that bleeding it civilian? Is that guy that doesn't know me willing, or the guy who is passed out and dying? How about the bad guy that we may want to save for whatever reason? The dominated friend we really don't want to kill? If I can use magic to forcibly melt someones face I think we should be able to force healing magic as well.
Perfect balance is basically impossible you realize this right? Also 'Balance' has absolutely no meaning in a debate about 'remove alignment restrictions.' Alignment is NOT balance. They two don't even have the same meaning or context. CN paladin is no more balanced than LG paladin than is a LE paladin. So... what was this about balance? Also I'm not telling you to play my way. I'm telling you why the book has specific restrictions. Get off your high horse and take a good like at why things are the way they are. You want your alignmentless game go play a home game without it.
Except that isn't the case. By removing restrictions you make that guy who is beholden to a power that is far above him and DEMANDS that he act thus and so... not what it was. Sure you could still play this character. But it would be so less meaningful to play. If that guy could go off and do whatever he wanted and retain all the blessings and powers he had gotten he wouldn't be the same character. Temptations don't matter when there are no consequence. Power without the work to maintain it is not so much fun. It's what makes a paladin a paladin. Now I'm sure you are going to say, "He could just be beholden to a different god." Or something. Sure he could be. Restriction still exists. But why is a paladin Lawful? Why are they required to be Lawful? Because they follow the edicts of the god they follow and are expected to follow it to both as written/spoken as well as to the intent. Without this they are a fighter with meh. Monks are the same. They are not lawful persay because they follow the law of the land to a point. They are lawful because they build themselves a regimen that they adhere to daily. Meditation, physical training, study. Being lawful isn't about following the law of the world, these are cosmic concepts. Law is the opposite of chaos. Law is repetition, adherence to a code or concept, tradition, and order. This doesn't mean a monk can't wander on whimsy but that while doing that he is going to maintain his abilities and studies while he does. Chaos none of that. Chaos is flipping a coin at a cross roads to see where you are going to go, absolute freedom from expectations, and often a lack of responsibility... or at least taking responsibility. These things stand at odds with one another. A paladin can't be chaotic because he has to take responsibility and answer to a higher power than himself. A monk can't be chaotic because if he ceases to repeat his training, his studies, and his meditations he will grow no closer to that state of enlightenment. BUT Paizo made a chaotic monk for all of those people that wanted to play one. They called him 'Brawler.'
I don't like it therefor trap. Love it. As discussed before this is going to see tons of play. Hey, I'm in a situation right now where I don't need to run away, am in no danger of being dead and want to hit something really hard without much of a concern about missing. I'll give up that -10 and 50% increase fumble chance to hit this guy REALLY hard right now. That sounds like a total trap to me. Yep. Definitely a trap.
I really do love all the 'Having to raise my shield is terrible' talk. One way or another using a shield is active. Are you moving your body to get the shield in the right position to block an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Are you moving your arm to put your shield in the way of an attack? You are actively thinking about and using it. Not to mention there is one other step here that people aren't getting yet. Swing, swing, block is not a bad thing in this edition. Forgoing that -10 swing is forgoing a 50% increased chance to fumble and possibly get slapped for it while increasing your AC by (lets say 2) 2 and decreasing your chance to be crit by 10%. That's not a terrible action. Now we have Expert, Master, Legendary equipment that for weapons gives a +1, +2, or +3 to hit. Possible that will transfer to shield AC. Then suddenly that +2 for raise shield is not a +5 for raise shield and the chance to be crit went down 25%.
I'm not calling a play style dumb. I'm calling a singular feat that is the root of the damage scaling problem in all of 3.x style systems dumb. If that entails the whole of your play style in just that one feat... I think it speaks for itself. There is a reason it's a feat tax to any melee character in the game that isn't a dex build. Oh right. Dex builds... ya doesn't work does it? Why not? Oh, right. Can't take PA. There are a couple builds that use it I know but they are supplemental to someone dealing real damage and not all that powerful themselves. A single feat that is this overly powerful IS a problem and always has been. You might being able to look at the DM and tell him you just hit for 20051asdf204 damage. Doesn't mean it hasn't always been a problem.
Yes, blasters have been sub optimal since oh... when was that again? 3.0 when PA became the thing it is now ya? Hmm... awfully suspicious. Now that said, is static damage fun? Sure, I know what I'm going to do and don't even need worry about dice. But what's the point of a dice game without dice? I've never been a fan of so many stupid static bonuses that my actual weapon attack doesn't matter besides, "Is it a 2h weapon?". That's silly. Honestly the damage PA has been needing a rework for about as long as it's existed. The answer was either, allow everyone to have something akin to PA with a 2-hander for damage numbers or rework it. Now why do I say give everyone something like that? Because if you don't you fall back into the same problem we have now. All the PA-ers win and no one else does. Also feat tax. Besides that to go along with that same problem then you run into the 'Why does this dragon in the Bestiary have 2500 hp?' 'Oh because he needs to live more than 2 rounds with a party of 4 18+ characters beating on his face.' As you have been saying, THAT IS A DESIGN PROBLEM. "Here's a meat wall, beat on it until it dies, have fun." PA is the dumbest feat in the book. Static damage numbers about 20 are just flat stupid. My GREATSWORD is capable of dealing 2-12 points of damage. WITHOUT the sword I deal twice that. Why do you have a sword again? Just rip the enemies apart with your hands. Now, I do hope magic and rogues and such are balanced around this, but I think they probably will be.
My point was that casters have along with say, anyone who wasn't power attacker, relied upon RNG dice numbers for as long as we've been playing 3.x/Pathfinder. We haven't died because of it. And your argument is narratively stupid. "I want to know how many swings it's going to take to kill this dragon." Answer - You shouldn't have a clue. Your character doesn't know how much health that monster has. You shouldn't walk in, look at a monster and be like... "Hmm... I can take this guy down in... eight or ten hits with my axe. Give me, hmm, ten... no twelve seconds." That's dumb. Yes, more dice introduces more random chance and less reliable known damage. That is a GOOD thing. You hit him, just because you hit him doesn't mean you should chunk 1/5 of his HP off every swing BEFORE dice. You hit means you did damage. It doesn't mean you landed an impactful solid blow. You'll get over it or keep playing P1. If not you'll get over it. This adds potentially more burst damage and less constant damage. However that allows people like say... the rogue to not just be terrible by comparison. Why play a rogue? We have PA Fighter/Barb/Paladin for all that damage. Have fun! Ya, no thanks. I've seen enough of that.
Have you ever in your life thrown a fireball? That is very pathfinder. Take xd6 roll. Damage. Yay. Do you see my static pluses there? Good. Neither do I.
Has someone written a concise post convening the DC70 so we can all FAQ it and make sure it's not just a mistake? We will get nothing until tomorrow or Friday at the earliest. Any official errata isn't going to hit until GenCon either starts or is in good swing. Besides that, this thread has the math and other elements in it that is needed, as well as the DC 70 concept being posted on their possible errors thread that Owen said he was watching for things to address.
You are right, I apologize. That said saying it's possible is still wrong. It is only a possibility when the stars align and the sleeper in R'lyeh wakes. Yes, perhaps possible in those situations it is not possible for everyone, or even close to MOST of everyone. Using an outlier as proof of something is is a horrible idea. Sure you "can" do it. But it's never going to work. It's like quoting Henry Ford, "You can have it in any color you want as long as that color is black." Except in this case it's, "You can do this with any race that you want as long as that race is Lashunta."
The point he's making is yes, everything 'possible.' It's possible under the absolute best circumstances and situations. It's 'possible' if you are Lashunta master race. It's 'possible' if you min/max everything at the cost of everything else. It is NOT possible if you are playing anything other than those specific circumstances, races, or one of two classes. So yes, if I min/max a soldier into INT I can do engineering stuff with him IF he's a Lashunta or Ysoki. But when are you going to literally EVER see that character? It's just not going to happen.
You are assuming that every single person in the game is Lashunta WITH the student in the ability they are doing, or a Ysoki engineer or a Shirren captain. STOP. Also, your calculations are always giving your people the absolutely BEST circumstances. Such as, using a SHUTTLE at tier 20 as an example of 'you can make piloting checks as long as you are doing this thing.' It's a poor argument technique, learn better ones. Or you know, do relevant to the problem math. Such as, you are a Human, a Vesk, a Android, a Lashunta who put student points in things that aren't going to help with this one singular specific task, a Ysoki captain, a Shirren engineer, or anything else that isn't so stupidly maximized as 'everyone is playing Lashunta with student in their starship role that supports my claim that every class can do their part because they are the single best race in the game to prove things with.' Also, stop bringing up the one and only relevant theme as a way to say all ship actions are possible. Also I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that we are going to see a fair number of characters that don't start the game with 18's in one stat, even less likely so that they can specialize into space combat. In your engineering example earlier, did that soldier start with an 18 int? Because that's just stupid on part of the character. Like... absurd levels of stupid. He might do ship stuff alright occasionally but he's not worth anything anywhere else. TLDR - Asari superiority isn't a valid arguement for every class is capable of doing this thing we are talking about.
Except that it's really not. You are relying there on two feats that are both insight bonuses. Skill Focus is a +3 insight bonus and Skill Synergy is a +2 insight bonus and thus don't stack. 9 stat 9
Still can't make 70 on a roll of a 20. A Ysoki can do it as can a Lashunta who decided it wanted Engineering as it's racial. But that's it, and that is with the captain deciding buffing you for a 10% chance is worth trying, which it really isn't. I'd rather reinforce a sure thing than try to support a long shot that is 90% certain to fail. Awesome actions will NOT be used if their chance of success is only 10%. If they are ~30% people might use them. This also doesn't solve the issues that for the captain to give someone another action he has to use one of the two computer +10's which ensures that whatever extra action is granted can't be a big one, nor can almost anything else done that turn because all of those checks are being done at -10. This is also again assuming that you started with an 18 in a relevant stat and can do literally nothing else with your character save punch things or shoot them with a gun or talk your way out of stuff or or or or or or.
Thanks. It's too bad that even if that becomes official errata, it doesn't do anything to address the problem that every crew action gets harder and harder to do as the group levels up.How are you getting around the fact that RAW, expertise die (and operative's edge) don't work for crew actions? That 84 DC (with 3 perfect rolls on a char optimized specifically to pass crew action checks) becomes 68 without True Expertise.There's an unofficial FAQ on thier twitter, I believe it was twitter, that said things that modified skills still worked. It'll be that way until at least this weekend when an actual errata drops. The real problem is actually that this makes Envoy and Operative the absolute best starship characters in the game and shoehorns soldiers and solarians into gunners. It also kicks most mystic characters in the mouth.
I don't disagree with most of what you said here. The problem is that police officer (high tier driver) could get into the SL2 and burn donuts around an equivalent tier in the Lambo. That's because the Lambo's DC might be 64 where the SL2 is 16. Guess who wins. I'm not saying that things need to be a cake walk at high tier. I'm saying that you should be able to do them and have improved in doing them in some meaningful way besides, 'I can now also do this other new thing if I make my check.' A system where your check to do the exact same thing always stays the same or actually grows steadily harder removes the feeling that you are getting better as a character. When there is no feeling of progression or improvement what's the payoff? I won't argue that pulling trick turns in a Juggernaut should be very hard. Flipping a full 360 in a fighter though shouldn't be by that level. (I know these things are not the hardest DC's in the book but I'm just using them to illustrate this.)
My thoughts exactly. There is the high performance vehicle arguments people have been making but they are a bit of a fallacy. Yes, the vehicle has more power but driving it is roughly the same as any other vehicle until you put more power down. When you do it is a bit harder to -learn- to control but one you have that understanding the new things the extra power allows you to do are open to you. Sure, if you fail the consequences are much higher. But pressing down a gas petal, pulling a lever, or pressing 'execute' on a computer are not harder from one vehicle to the next. A turn and burn might require you to cut power to the engines, flip the ship around and reengage the power in six seconds. At tier one you might have to do this manually. At tier 20 why is there not a built in way to do this, or sine rapid access because you are some hotshot pilot that knows what he's doing? By that point this should be something you are really prepared to execute without question.
Nah, I doubt if many or any of my characters using point buy will ever start with an 18. 18 14 11 10 10 10 is not that great. 18 12 12 11 isn't much better. It's likely that we'll see a fair number of starts with 16's given 4 upgrades every 5 levels. I want to know how often a character with 16s can do this. Is every captain required to be an ace pilot for that +1 just to edge in on helping his pilot out? Is every captain a Lashunta who puts his bonuses into things for starship combat? Are we stuck with SHUTTLES for that little boost to skills? I like playing characters, not cookie cutters. I just want that character to be able to succeed at this at least reasonably well. Right now most of the time he can't even attempt it.
OK, that's lot better answer. However you are still talking about a stupidly min/maxed character. I'd like to be able to at minimum attempt this with a character not designed for that still purpose. Say 8 in the stat because I didn't start with an 18. Let's say I'm not playing Lashunta, or i didn't put one of my +2's in that exact stat. I'm not ace pilot. And I'm not some scrub still riding in a shuttle at tier 20. Boosters of 6 might still. Still not accounting for having wasted one of your +10 uses, not to mention that no one is getting a captain +2 this turn. Yes in absolute niche circumstances it might be possible, in realistic ones it is neither worth doing our even possible to do.
DC 70 starship checks that are only reasonably makeable as an operative or envoy with amazing rolls and min/maxed characters. Vehicle chase rules that favor buying level 1 vehicles because the checks are so much easier. Further the chase rules take nothing into account for the 28mph goblin junkcycle trying to chase a level 4 car that can go 55mph. Regardless of that the checks favor the cycle at DC11 versus DC14.
How are you getting around the fact that RAW, expertise die (and operative's edge) don't work for crew actions? That 84 DC (with 3 perfect rolls on a char optimized specifically to pass crew action checks) becomes 68 without True Expertise. There's an unofficial FAQ on thier twitter, I believe it was twitter, that said things that modified skills still worked. It'll be that way until at least this weekend when an actual errata drops.
I'd love to see the math on that because I don't see it. I mean show me any non min/max non envoy pulling off a DC 70 check more than once a day on an offchance he succeeds with a 1/day ability. Better yet show me a captain pulling this off. Your example is a very light case that only works with an absolutely maxed out character. Racial bonuses, 3 max roll dice, computer bonus, and captain bonus. Without that envoy 2d8 and no captain/ themeless bonus not even an envoy can make the check. Even with either a 1/day themeless bonus or a captain encourage no one else can make it. With both they have one chance in a day to attempt a miniscule chance so low it's not worth taking. And that is not counting the fact that your captain just used one of your two +10 bonuses to try to grant someone else an extra action.
I'd love to see the math on that because I don't see it. +8 from the stat (starting at 15). 8
That's 49. Roll a D20 and it's still impossible. Once per day, you can untyped bonus to -attempt- a 10% chance to do it. That is just dumb. Also, play Lashunta to be good is a terrible concept to start with.
Ok, now say that you are anything that is not an Envoy and you are the captain. You are trying to give someone an extra action instead of say, give someone a +2. Also figure that you are playing a character that didn't start out with an 18 because you are not building a character that is a min/max character. So say your 28 is actually a 26. Say you are trying to do something with that untyped once a day ability already expended (because you can do this once a day is also a very poor argument when you are dealing with actions you are supposed to be able to do in a ship). That alone says you lose 15 to your roll. And like that you fail that 70 roll. And this is assuming that you ARE an operative and only giving you -10 off the +16 from being Envoy you can get on a max roll.
You might be right in some situations there. But you error into adding in the computer for everyone. 15 ranks. 15
That does make things possible without a computer. Somewhat. -1 if you aren't a pilot, the only relevant theme.
Serums I hadn't taken into account but that would be like shooting up adrenaline before every military engagement and shouldn't be a standard. So... -2. So still a problem. Also with a duonode +8 computer your optimizing for that. It also doesn't change that the 20+2×tier and 10+3×tier are impossible at tier 20. Though an unofficial errata now says operative edge and envoy dice now work.
Ya, still hoping for an FAQ or a book about space combat/ships that lists us actually have progression though. I'm thinking that with vehicles I'm going to do a DC 10+your vehicles item level or the highest level enemy vehicle, whichever is lowest. Plus bonuses based on the spec of a vehicle versus pursuers.
Yes, having more people is effective in some ways but very meaningless in others. I'll probably house rule store form of bonuses from multiple crew members assisting a single person, or on small shops with less computing power required sine form of upgradable static system bonus.
We've taken the computer into account. With a maximized character build you still autofail 10+3×tier at tier and level 16 or higher. At 20+2×tier you need an 18 on the dice for tier and level 19-20. And that is only on the possible 2 skills you can use the computer for, what about all the others?
Two skills, Skill Focus gives a +3 and skill versatility gives a +2 if you pick a class skill. Your theme might give a +1 to a relevant skill if you had said skill as a class skiing to start. Don't recall any magical items save the Starstone Compass that effects starship anything. Also tier is equivalent to character level so long as characters are equal level.
Yes, but this is easy to see coming. +1 skill rank, +3 DC. An increase of 2 every level save levels with modifier increases, I saw the problem the moment I read the formula. Also the same rolls shouldn't always be relevant. I'm getting better and my ship is getting better, why is everything equally as hard. No progression feels like no progression.
This would also imply that you are required to build into a larger ship to do anything as you level. No being Serenity or the Millennium Falcon. You have to build big or you can't make your DC.
Yes, but if I start with a medium explorer at tier 1 and over 20 levels I only update and upgrade that ship so that I now have a tier 20 explorer why is the upgraded awesome ship harder to control? Why do the same people on board from the start now not want to litsen to me? Why did my DC to fly backward go from 12 to 50? Shouldn't that sort of be the opposite?
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