At first I thought it was a scrubs reference, then I realized that the scrubs line was a hudsucker proxy reference.

Its a no-brainer.

Hadouken.

Can my spirit animal be Adam West?

Please?

Purty please?

I love the idea of a spirit animal.

I don't think it should be as overtly powerful as an animal companion, but still strong enough to assist in the shaman doing his thing.

It should be able to deliver touch spells and hexes, but not have the physical stats and offensive power of the druid pet.

Sort of halfway between familiar and animal companion.

He can throw down, but not for long, and he has the utility of the familiar.

I think only nature spirit shamen should get a full on animal companion.

What I would like to see is a class with a familiar that isn't "OMG KEEP IT HIDDEN OR IT WILL DIE!"

Familiars are dreadfully difficult to keep around if you start using the for anything other than providing alertness -_-

Class abilities that 1: Make it hard to kill your spirit animal, given that it should be an outsider and thus impossible to kill outside its home plane and 2: make the familiar capable of getting some of those nifty familiar feats that Paizo put out like spell sponge.

That way it could survive, be useful as a delivery agent for hexes and powers, and not get gacked instantly for it.

Well one would expect that the different spirit choices are different "types" of spirits.

The fire, wave, wind and stone spirits being elemental spirits ect ect ect.

I think a lot of the problem is that this class, the name, and the concept can be executed in SO many ways.

I like the idea of the fetish alot, but I'm not sure it should be a direct gateway to hex like abilities.

Level 1: Pick animal or fetish, animal is a wizards familiar that grants access to hexes. Fetish gives hexes and [Blank]?

Kinda like a wizard choosing his bond...

Priest = D6 divine wizard
Shaman != D6 divine wizard

Yes we need an armorless cleric, is this the venue? Not so much.

Medium armor is solid for this.

Simple weapons is too... but I would like to see "And one Martial weapon of the player's choice" added, given that Shamen use the weapons of their tribe, whether they be clubs or battleaxes.

I don't see dial-a-class as being good for this. Arcane magic comes with arcane thinking. And that means a lack of dogma. The Arcanist does what the arcanist wants. While a Shaman, despite being less spiritual than a cleric or even an oracle, is still bound by ritual and dogma.

Shamen learned from their predecessors so certain concepts, rituals, methods and practices will be standardized.

This throws out the whole pick and choose idea.

And the concept of Maiden Mother Crone speaks of very specific entities and very specific duties within the mythology. The who changes, the what they are doesn't.

And who gets to carve the totem pole doesn't change WHY what was carved WHERE. Tribes had specific entities that they saw as being more or less important. The Bear tops more than most because its 1: Easy to carve and 2: more important in the cultures. The Bear was seen as being closer to man than most other animals. Considering they had similar cycles. The tribes hunkered down for the winter and moved little, the bear hibernated. When the bear woke, the tribe's were ready to move. It even comes into modern culture with movies like brother bear and Brave(Which was freaking amazing ^_^)

And lots of cultures consider the Raven to be bad luck... or crow.

Though having seen a crow sitting on a rock NEXT to a Raven... holy balls. The Raven could have eaten the crow one gulp and not had trouble. Those things are terrifying in nature, much less in a mythological sense. It was bigger than the chickens they had in Sewart... 0_0

I see the mechanical validity of "Hex or Revelation" but it doesn't fit the design template.

That template being.

"Some from this, some from that, one new"

And the Loa had specific names and governed VERY specific things. And they're older than most other shamanistic concepts combined. Same with the Sidhe and the fae. Same with the native americans. "Spirit of the Bear, spirit of the Raven" There is a reason why bears are almost always on TOP of totem poles. They hold a position of hierarchy over the others.

The spirits are drawn from the Oracle... so we can't really look at them as being the "Something new".

We need something new, and something witch to round out the template.

And I'm liking "Omen" for the name of the spirit abilities. As Omens can be good and bad, and speak of a great many things.

I don't like non specific spirits. Most traditional forms of shamanism have very specific entities that govern parts of nature. Like the voodoo loa, and the old norse fae spirits.

I think the spirit "Hex" name needs to go, replace it with something else, don't know the terminology well enough.

And usually shamen don't deal with harmful spirits outright. They can ward them off, prevent them from laying down roots in the first place. Directly driving off a powerful spirit is more of a matter of asking it to go and paying it, than confronting and driving it off.

I like the idea of a single spirit that is the core of the character, and like how the oracle stuff blends. So I'll disagree with you there.

The base shaman character I'm using for this is "Injun Joe" Listens to Wind from the Dresden files.

But then again he has wild shape on crack... and is the gold standard of old men that should not be messed with.

So here we go. Using that idea we're at:

1st: Orisons, Spirit(Pick between familiar and fetish), Spirit Magic
2nd: "Hex"
3rd: Improved Spirit Guide(Small Elemental/Celestial or Infernal Animal)/Witch Hex
4th: Wandering Spirit
5th:
6th: Wandering "Hex"
7th: Improved Spirit Guide(Outsider)/Witch Hex
8th: Greater Spirit
9th:
10th: "Hex"
11th: Improved Spirit Guide(Bonus Familiar Feat)/Witch Major Hex
12th: Greater Wandering Spirit
13th:
14th: Wandering "Hex"
15th: Improved Spirit Guide(+2 Natural Armor)/Witch Major Hex
16th: True Spirit
17th:
18th: "Hex"
19th: Improved Spirit Guide(Bonus Familar Feat)/Witch Grand Hex
20th: Manifest, True Wandering Spirit

doesn't that look more like the other classes?

I'd be ok with an option between a familiar, a fetish(Which grants hexes), or something else.

Sort of a "Pick your oracle bits, then pick your witch bits, then rock face with them!" concept.

Its solid.

Its more than solid... that's paydirt.

Spirit guide - pick fetish or spirit animal.

Fetish gives hexes at the same level your spirit animal would "grow up"

Spirit animal goes from basic familiar to improved familiar and beyond, no hexes though.

Fixes the flexibility issue, fixes the lack of variance issue, and is easier to balance.

Agreed, I don't think it should have so much a "Familiar" as a "Spirit guide"

As in my previous post. A helper that does some of the work.

Shamen are always in touch with the spirits, even if they're not normally seen.

A "Familiar type" mechanic does a lot of the tieing in that grounds the class, so I think it should stay.

I've done it with a grippli druid in pathfinder... not nearly as strong as it use to be.

"Oh look a little frog man... lets eat it"

*Grippli druid(Named ribbit) goes from size small humanoid to size huge T-rex.

"Oh crap"

*Size huge t-rex turns into size garg t-rex with animal growth*

"Someone... anyone... have some spare pants?"

*OMNOMNOMNOMNOM!*

grippli officially replace halflings as the "-2 strength, +1 dinosaur" race now... huzah

Im not. This is a WITCH alternate class. Witch gets a familiar.

Just cause its there doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.

I don't see barbarians that use trapsense more than a few times in a campaign or druids that use resist nature's lure.

Just cause a mechanic exists, doesn't mean you have to use it.

And its CODzilla.

It means "Cleric or Druid" zilla.

IE spells like divine favor, divine power, and animal growth.

When the cleric or druid uses one on himself he goes from mild mannered PC to unstoppable wrecking ball if built properly.

But if you don't move SOME of the hexes over... what does witch really contribute to the class? Survey says... zero

I really like this "Get improved familiar" idea.

Lets say that when a shaman first enters the class, he forms a bond with a spirit guide. That spirit guide is his envoy to the spirit world, and his means to gain access to spirit abilities. It has one of its own, which determines some of its traits, but can then facilitate the acquisition of temporary contracts with the other spirits, thus giving the shaman the wandering spirit class feature.

At first the spirit is weak, and must inhabit a living creature to survive and manifest on the prime material. (Which btw: Base familiars are almost all animals, if not all animals)

Once the shaman reaches 3rd or 5th level the spirit has gained power, and can manifest on its own, allowing it to take the form of an elemental, template animal(IE celestial hawk) or even some magical beasts.

At 7th or 9th level the spirit gains power again, and can manifest as any of the 7th level requirement improved familiars with all their powers.

After that it gains small QOL improvements. A feat or two maybe.

The familiar allows access to a VERY limited number of hexes. I say three per base familiar. None of which should be the witch's bread and butter. So no cauldron, no cackle, no prehensile hair. The shaman can learn one at 5th and another at 10th. No major hexes, no grand hexes. Just the basic stuff.

The idea ties witch into the class and provides a breath of options that it is currently lacking... and makes it the only class that has familiars that ACTUALLY DO STUFF. :p

Lets see

Pig: Fly, Charm(I mean come on... tell me pigs arn't adorable), Feral Speech(That'll do pig, that'll do)

Cat: Beast of Ill Omen, Evil eye(I've never seen a cat that can't do this), Misfortune

Bat: Poison Steep, Unnerve Bests, Scar

Ect ect ect...

Oh lord...fly hex on the pig.

If only the familiar could use the hexes it grants ^_^

That would give DM's a reason not to utterly ignore the familiar... if the familiar is using misfortune on their boss type NPC and then cackling just to be a jerk... the DM has a reason to remove the issue, and the player a reason to protect their fragile familiar.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

He should get it for free and keep the bonus from his spirits and the initial familiar bonus, of course! The spirits be closer with you that way.

I believe the Familiar is a good way to grant access to witch hexes. And since its an alternate class shaman levels count as witch levels for prerequisites right?

Let us say you choose a toad familiar, that toad familiar gives you access to the blight hex, the evil eye hex, and lets say the cackle hex(A frog croaks constantly)

Each familiar choice, grants associated hex options that the Shaman can draw from.

But then again that might be needless complication.

Snip snip edit snipe for the sake of simplicity.

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

Cheapy wrote:

What aspects of the spell list are you looking for feedback on?

Its not really something I can crowd-source. Basing it off druid just does not feel right, despite the fact that it is a reasonable fit for the theme. I am still mulling it over, weighing options.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I agree completely. I am "Ok" with druid + stuff but it really feels like this class needs a custom list.

Secondly, the hexes... please include some. You have these things called "hexes" but NONE of them come from the witch list... not one... so right now we're looking at shaman being a DRUID ALTERNATE CLASS instead of oracle witch.

This class has serious potential to fill a gap, that gap being the gap between cleric and druid. A moderate armor moderate offensive power partial/full caster with support and healing. Witch/oracle fills it well in theory, we just haven't hit the reality yet.

Currently I feel like Shaman doesn't really blend anything. As it stands its 85% oracle, 10% druid, and 5% witch... considering its suppose to be oracle/witch that's a problem. Hexes please, and a custom list closer to witch than oracle.

We only have half a class currently...

If you look at most classes they fill 3+ roles in a party.

Fighter is tank/damage/control
Cleric is healer/damage/buffer

Shaman should be Healer/Damage/Control. We have healing, a good spell list is damage... it needs hexes for control.

Ok having gone over it about a thousand times since I got the pdf yesterday.

Here are the things I see.

1: Spell list = good. Its druid + stuff that makes sense, i'm happy with this.

2: LACK OF VARIANCE
This is a BIG issue. Yea all the spirits are different, yea you get to change one every day. But I would MUCH like to see a selection of abilities for Greater Spirit. Even if its only two. That and the greater spirit abilities are really hit and miss. The life option is... horribad.

3: Its cannon now, Shamen get 5th level spells before 4th ^_^ don't know how that managed to stay in the pdf...

4: Still hoping that actual HEXES make a showing in this... The class still feels like its 90% oracle 10% witch

HA! That's my favorite kind of joke, the kind only I get to laugh at.

It wasn't bad either...

I agree that all shamen should have a small list of witch hexes to choose from regardless of spirit chosen.

Here's the list of hexes that fit the shaman concept.

Healing Hex
Scars
Evil Eye
Blight
Disguise
Feral Speech
Unnerve Beasts
Fortune
Misfortune
Ward

Animal Skin
Beast Eye
Hidden Home
Hoarfrost
Ice Tomb
Infected Wounds
Major Healing
Speak in Dreams
Vision
Weather control
Witch's Bounty

Dire Prophecy
Forced Reincarnation
Lay to Rest
Life Giver
Natural Disaster
Summon Spirit

Now that's a lot of hexes... and most can be split into the spirits.

I believe that these should be universal

Healing hex
Evil Eye
Fortune
Feral Speech
Misfortune
Ward

That selection of basic hexes allow a player to have a small set of tools that help to define him when combined with a spirit and wandering spirit.

"neo-druid"

There is no (wooden) spoon.

I still think that the druid spell list is a bad idea, Shamen work with spirits, druids work with animals, one of these things is not like the other, one of these things should die alone.

Playtested an elven investigator 15 this weekend.

Blur + Blend = I stealth when I want to...also SNEAK ATTACK.

The class lived up to what I expected, quite liked the overall feel of it. Use poison was odd, but everything else was spot on.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Consume Magic Items (Su): [snip]

Far too long and complicated of an ability. Needs to be simplified. Also,

Quote:

If the spellcraft check succeeds by 10 or more an additional charge is drained for every 10 the check succeeds. Any points gained in addition to the maximum allowed in an Arcanist's Reservoir are wasted.

This has the possibility of punishing a player for rolling well, something you don't want to happen. Say the arcanist is draining a wand of invisibility and only has room in her pool to recover 2 points. If the player succeeds on the check by 10, then extra charges are drained for no gain.

Yea, too long. But then again the idea of consuming magic items is new to the system... it can be expected to have some baggage.

Then instead of "Is drained" it becomes "He may". Allowing the player to choose.

Ok argument with Cpt. Grumpypants aside. Here is what I have.

Consume Magic Items (Su): The arcanist can consume the power of potions, scrolls, staves, and wands, or even syphoning power off enhancement bonus based enchantments using them to fill her arcane reservoir. Using this ability requires one minute of concentration. Using this ability requires a spellcraft check (DC = 15+ the CL of the item) to complete. Failure by 5 or more drains a charge from wands or staves, failure by 10 or more suppresses the magical properties of an item for 1d4 hours and its magics cannot be syphoned off again in this way until the suppression passes. If the check succeeds the arcanist gains a number of Arcane Reservoir points equal to 1/2 the items CL and the item is suppressed for 1d4 days or until the Arcanist expends points from his reservoir equal to those gained to reactivate the item's enchantments. In the case of an item that contains charges the check time is reduced to a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful check allows the Arcanist to drain 1 charge from the item, regaining a number of points equal to the highest spell level contained within the item. For example if Consume magic items is used on a wand of fireballs and the check succeeds one charge is drained and the Arcanist gains 3 points in his reservoir. If the spellcraft check succeeds by 10 or more an additional charge is drained for every 10 the check succeeds. Any points gained in addition to the maximum allowed in an Arcanist's Reservoir are wasted.

Jason said the Arcanist is the "Hacker" of the magic world... I think this fits that concept to a T, and is unlikely to cause the barbarian to lose it and cut the Arcanist in half for "eating his shiny"

Hmm... would it be better if an item so drained by an arcanist just stayed "off" until he reenergized it? That would keep players from buying an item just to use as a "battery"...

If someone did that at my table... I'd eject them from the game. That's rude and obviously just done to antagonize the party, like a rogue robbing players in their sleep.

This is not so easy an idea to balance. When you try to pin down the details on it, it becomes more problematic. Part of it is that AR points go up linearly with level. Magic item cost goes up geometrically. So with the current system, getting points at higher levels will be easy. Getting points at low levels will be hard.

That's just fine. At low levels an Arcanist is "New to the trade" and SHOULD have a hard time doing such things, considering it would be a VERY delicate task. I'm ok with there being a spellcraft check related to the CL of the item that if failed by too much causes you to disable the magics in the item, much like a rogue failing a disable device check by 5 or more and jamming a lock or a sorc rolling a 1 on that UMD and having a wand tell him to piss off for the rest of the day.

Also the points he gets back can be related to the linear increase in item caster level not the geometric increase in associated cost, using spellcraft as a gateway to prevent the Arcanist from borrowing a high level NPC's item just to fill his pool for the day.

And I wanted you to change tone, not content, catch a clue chief.

Again with absolute arguments.

If you think its that bad, don't just say "This is bad" and then harass anyone who disagrees. Help fix it.

Personally I see it a a "Little bit" expensive, but then again I think it will seldom be overtly needed.

I'd like it better if instead of obliterating an item, the Arcanist just "drained it"

Syphon charges off something with charges, or suppress a magic item for X amount of time.

"Oh, we don't need this +2 Dwarven Urgosh! Cause those things are horribad right!? I'll just syphon off its enchantment and turn it into points in my pool and it becomes a Masterwork Dwarven why did they make this? till I get back to town and replace what I took. That ok with you guys?"

Leave the item to be sold, once the Arcanist gets back to town and uses some of his own daily power to replace what he took.

I love how many absolute arguments there are in that post.

"This is how it is, period the end, I reject rebuttals before they're submitted"

I don't see consume as a trap option, but with reservations.

If the mechanics injected on the map are more useful, powerful, or flavorful than the mechanics injected on the map by the magic item that was consumed, its not a bad idea.

You say it will cause friction between players, I do not see this. If a player says "HEY! That was group loot, I want my gold for that item!" then he's not a good player... period, the end. And as such his opinions are as useless as he is.

You're assuming that the items you eat will always be more useful on their own than the abilities that they fuel. That is where you are wrong.

That being said its a fine line between useful and useless in this case.

And must be carefully balanced.

Which I trust Paizo to do.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Spon cast druid = Oh god please no! I want a class that can actually do something with its spells... not just walk around saying "Sorry, don't know that spell. Will a cure light wounds or goodberry help?"

In 3.5 together with wizards, druids were arguably the most overpowered class in the game and that have not changed too much in Pathfinder. By giving the class the druid list paizo is in no way doing the shamans a diservice in regard to power or utility. I have no ideia what you are talking about.

You're talking about CODzilla. Cleric or Druid zilla.

Why was CODZILLA strong? Because they had access to their entire spell list. They prepare what they want each day from a MASSIVE LIST.

A SPON druid caster is horribly useless simply because it does not have access to the entire list, which is my point. Having a severely limited selection of spells each day destroys it.

Its not DRUID that's the problem. Its SPONTANEOUS CASTING that is.

See now?

Still pushing for witch or hybrid.

Spon cast druid = Oh god please no! I want a class that can actually do something with its spells... not just walk around saying "Sorry, don't know that spell. Will a cure light wounds or goodberry help?"

Witch spell list or hybrid please, obvious answer is obvious.

1: Arcanist as a Gish = Bad idea. Not with that name, not with this concept. Yes we need a wiz/sorc rogue mix, I miss Spellthief too. But this is not the slot to try and get your gish card swiped in.

2: 6 level casting class ect ect = NO. The Arcanist is a dedicated caster. 9 spell levels or call him something else.

The concept we're working with is "What happens when a sorcerer fakes his way into wizard school and doesn't blow himself up"

And as far the concept I've seen and the mechanics presented are pretty good.

I'd be happiest with witch or a hybrid list.

... the arcanist DOES have a niche.

Wizards get power though sheer effort, study and hard work.

Sorcs get power from their blood, they're born with it and it comes to them when they call (Not always as they want it... but it comes)

An arcanist is what happens when a sorcerer... studies up.

Someone with innate power that also puts in serious effort to learn how magic works.

Its a niche, its a good one. Why are we arguing about this?

MECHANICS PEOPLE... That's what we're here for. Not "Should this be done" or "This is op and I'm not going to shut up till everyone agrees with me!"

I swear I don't know how paizo does it... other than ignore the thread for three days then make an intern read it...

Its like herding cats around here

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Boom, headshot.

I will admit the Concept is viable. But not with "Shaman" as the name.

Historically shamen wore whatever garments (Including armor) that their tribe wore.

The celtic druids (Which are really just the tribe's shamen) wore the same armor their bretheren wore in battle.

Which was either a leather version of Lorica Segmenta... which is actually where Lorica Segmenta came from. Seeing as the romans stole it from the celts and made it out of metal instead of cured hides.

Or they went into battle buck naked... like their clansmen.

I think shaman's HD and armor/profs are good. Its the spell list that needs work.

Though priest would be a good idea in the future.

I'd definitely be happy with a 3/4th armored shaman too (provided it's spells are right -- and the druid list on its own isn't the answer), but I disagree that Shaman needs to be armored. Shaman is a cross-cultural enough term* that it's got a lot of leeway in terms of how it plays, so long as spirits remain a core part of the class's features and spells. The class doesn't need to be the perfect historical shaman for Culture X, it needs to hit the right notes flavorfuly and work mechanically. I can imagine Shamans in armor, and I can imagine them without, so yay either way. I can't imagine Shamans with the druid spell list on its own, which at least as of the blog post seems to be where they're headed.

*I know there are upthread disagreements about this. I'm choosing to ignore them.

to be fair, I've built fighters that never went past chain shirts... and one paladin... I wouldn't recommend the light armor paladin. He died quite horribly in the mouth of a shogoth. Well if you can consider it a "Mouth".

I think they should be hard limited to medium or light though.

As far as the spells go... I'm still going to push for a hybrid witch/cleric/druid list. Sort of a greatest hits that fit with the concept.

Boom, headshot.

I will admit the Concept is viable. But not with "Shaman" as the name.

Historically shamen wore whatever garments (Including armor) that their tribe wore.

The celtic druids (Which are really just the tribe's shamen) wore the same armor their bretheren wore in battle.

Which was either a leather version of Lorica Segmenta... which is actually where Lorica Segmenta came from. Seeing as the romans stole it from the celts and made it out of metal instead of cured hides.

Or they went into battle buck naked... like their clansmen.

I think shaman's HD and armor/profs are good. Its the spell list that needs work.

Though priest would be a good idea in the future.

I'd rather say d6 and light armor. Not wizard with a different spell list.

Wizard with another spell list is 'Meh'

And shaman doesn't strike me as unarmored.

What you're talking about is more or less a divine witch... not our goal here.

Though I will admit with another name d6 armorless cleric is a viable option.

Wow dude... so little faith. Learn contingency, use contingency. Live a long and productive life.

DM: My Rogue/Fighter/monk/ranger/alchemist/Kristie Alley attacks the wizard

You: An attack roll was made against my character, my contingency triggers

DM: Ok what does it do?

You: Its linked to a dimdoor, straight up, max range. My ring of feather fall triggers.

Dm: Ok the attack fails, the wizard isn't there anymore.

Dm: Ok wizard your turn

You: timestop. Summon monster 9, quickened shield, summon monster 9 quickened mage armor, resilient sphere on myself I forgo the save. In character: "Get em boys"

The dm's whatever dies a horrible death?

Ok that's all the off topic I have in me today...

I think a lot of the "this is op" concerns come directly from people not realizing several things.

1: Its a full caster... expecting it to not tear stuff in half at high level is just stupid. Anything with 9th level spells is going to straight up obliterate the vast majority of its opponents in the first round of combat... cause hey, they earned it. His abject uselessness early on is how he pays for being so strong late game.

2: Balance isn't done in a white box... its done in actual games. Not hypothetical situations and numbers crunching. Yes, its a more flexible caster, yes its casting ability is powerful. But its working with a maximum output just like every other wizard and sorcerer. Look at the ulitmate magus. Everyone said it was "The end of all arcane casters" cause everyone would do it all the time. EVEN IT wasn't THAT BAD in the end. And he had DUAL ARCANE CASTING PROGRESSION. The Arcanist has a single set of spells to work with and the same limitations in overall output and consistency.

3: He can be shut down so freaking hard its not funny... seriously, if you're looking at overall effect on the battlefield he's got some serious power... but he's got little in the way of staying out of trouble. Just like a wizard, sure he's got some spells that keep him out of trouble sometimes. But any DM worth his salt is going to shut down the arcanist hard and make him earn every spell cast.

4: "I can build a fighter that can kill any wizard" - Sure you can... oh wait... no you can't. Not unless you replace half his fighter levels with levels of abjurer and get REALLY lucky... <_< If you're a pure fighter I have one word for you. Contingency... then two more "You lose"

Personally... I think the spell list should mix all three...

Witch, for curses and mental control, debuffs and status effects
Oracle/Cleric, for divination and healing, buffs and control
and Druid, for natural spells relating to animals and plants, and fire magic as a source of mystical purification.

I like this idea because the shaman is many things. And his spell list should reflect that.

He's a healer first and foremost. Which is where the name "Medicine Man" came from.

He's a protector, capable of calling up the spirits of nature to bring wrath and destruction on those who endanger his tribe/people.

He's a warrior, able to wade into battle with formidable magics of direct destruction.

Mixing bits from all three spell lists allows him to live up to the name we've given him.

I think its obvious that the two spell list don't fit the Shaman well enough.

TIME FOR A CUSTOM LIST PLEASE!

Since the shaman straddles the line between cleric and druid... it only makes sense that his spell list do the same.

One thinks that considering the information given in this thread...

Perhaps a custom spell list is in order? Combining cleric, witch, and Druid?

Requesting that the Investigator be a male tengu... named Harvey.

please ^_^

Robert A Matthews wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Hmmm... I kind of want to make a Dwarf Paladin now, that wields a Large Dwarven Waraxe(2d8 points of pure pain)

Good defenses doesn't mean it's OP. It just means it has good defense. Paladins still don't have anything even close to the narrative influence casters have. Nor do they have the same versatility and problem-solving skills as Bards, Inquisitors, Rangers or Alchemists (and full casters, of course).

Paladins are a good martial class. That's all. They shine when they are supposed to shine but are not made useless during other situations.

(Viable) Options are what make a class powerful, not numbers. That's why casters are so much more powerful than martial classes.

But if you want a dwarf Paladin, I can share a few ideas. :)

AndIMustMask wrote:

combine with glory of old + steel soul (or the magic-resistant racial thing) for even MORE resilience!

Fun Fact: Glory of Old can be taken by characters of any race. oO

Um no. The paladin has better attack rolls than the fighter, better AC than the fighter, better Saves than the monk, better damage than the barbarian, and just enough magic to let him deal with most casters. His ONLY weakness is bad skills, which his magics and a VERY small amount of gold can fix. Paladin is OP, its designed to BE op. In fact its SO OP that they have to add a CODE OF CONDUCT to try and reign him back in...

That being said, the paladin is where the paladin is suppose to be, both mechanics and lore wise. Why do you think that the bad guys haven't won and taken over Golarion a LONG TIME AGO? Because paladins exist...

Back to Arcanist please.

All inane arguments about what word to use aside...

We should get back to the fact that this class, meant to be a mix of oracle and witch, is currently 98% oracle and 2% witch... not a good mix...

Constructive comments please, who cares what word or historical background is used for it, we're here to make the MECHANICS work, not make it sound pretty off the tongue.

Regarding all of the comments of "OP".

People said summoner was hopelessly broken, they were wrong.

They said Alchemist was OP... they were wrong.

There's only one class in this game that is hopelessly OP... and that's the paladin... period the end.

Yes, the Arcanist is strong. No... its not nearly as bad as people say it is.

In application it will be very good as a primary caster. But the thing is... he's not in a white box, and he's not by himself. In the end he's a cog in a machine. He can never fit into the slot for other cogs, he can only do what he was intended to do. Will it be a little easier, maybe, will it unbalance a game? I highly doubt it. And if it does, its cause the player built something specifically to do that. That's on the player, not the designer. And its on the DM to break his foot off in the player's colon for being a douche.

These people that say the Arcanist will hog the spotlight are the same people who do the same thing with paladins.

I like the idea of the druid spell list... as that spell list is underrepresented in the game thus far.

I think the class definitely needs more witch and less oracle...

Perhaps instead of "Hex" you should use "Kenning" or word of power.

Ok having read the class over about 10 times. Here are my thoughts.

The overall feel is roughly 98% oracle and 2% witch... this is a problem. A big one.

The hexes arn't "hexes" by the definition of the word. To hex someone is to negatively impact them in some way.

I believe that this combo, and the shamanistic concept overall, more than allows for the full arsenal of debuffs that the witch gives.

I would much like this class with far more hexes, mostly a "This makes sense" selection from the oracle mysteries and the witch hexes.

Life spirit giving healing hex, battle and lore giving evil eye, bones giving scars and later on agony and such.

There are a few things that are very firmly the witches stick... and should remain as such. Like cackle, prehensile hair, and caldron.

Same goes for the oracle.

Giving the shaman access to extra hex should be limited so that they can't get those hexes though that feat.

the spells, the spirits, the layout and placement of abilities (Save for the hexes, which should be more common and have tiers, considering that is par for the course with classes up to this point), and the skills/profs/ect are spot on. Its just that the class feels like Oracle with a different name and layout :(

Thanks for the time.

Arikiel wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

That said, I'm annoyed by the, "We can only use Core Races for our Pathfinder Iconics," stance, especially considering that the iconics supposedly fall in line with Golarion's racial deviations. Why?

Because they have to assume that any given group may only have the CRB and Bestiary 1 to draw upon.

Bestiary 1 allows for Tengu, Aasimar, Tiefling and Svirneflin Iconics.

If that is the case... I DEMAND that the Investigator Iconic be Tengu... and that he be named harvey...

+1 for Shoanti shaman, because it's just meant to be.

That or Ulfen... Ulfen are not represented at all as of yet right?