Heliocentrist's page

Thanks so much for the help, guys! Look what I done found: http://modern-myths.com/pathfinder-society/

Looks like Modern Myths is indeed the place to go. Many thanks!

Awesome! I've been looking for a PF group in western mass for years! Thanks for taking the initiative. See you there!

This is a great idea! Might I suggest pulling some ideas from the old James Bond RPG from Victory Games? Did anyone else play it? It was truly well-designed -- elegant and fun, though without sacrificing all complexity.

I saw the ad on the Paizo Store Blog, and like a good gamer (lemming?) with highly developed case of system ADHD I checked it out. I found a positive review over on RPGNet that mde me want to learn more, but haven't found much of anything else. So I'm turning to you guys.

Has anyone played MML, and if so what were your thoughts on the game?

I, too, would love to hear from anyone who has seen the books -- too bad there isn't a free glance at the inside anywhere.

As one who subscribes to the idea that, as much as possible, the RPG world should simulate as closely as possible the "real world" (in terms of physics, relationships, etc.), might I add one thing?

Although it makes no sense, I agree, to intentionally punish or weaken multiclass characters, can no one else look around them in the real world and see that "multi-classed people" are actually at a disadvantage?

For example, I am a physician. If I were also a ditch-digger, and split some of my time to focus on this, do you think I would have many patients? Or, for that matter, would I have many people hiring me to dig ditches? Of course not -- because I would do neither job well. And it wouldn't mean that I am being "punished" by the Eternal Gamemaster or what-have-you -- it's just the way the world works. I might be interesting, and my life might be fun, but I would not be employable. If I were to go adventuring, it might be hard finding a party to take me along as a physician or a ditch-digger, especially if they could find an individual who has focused all of his or her time on professional development in the one field in which they needed an expert.

Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that. Seems to me that anyone playing a multiclass character, as many have noted above, just needs to accept that it is the way the world turns. It's part of the territory, in gaming and in reality.

To clarify, the retype sheet is the US Letter Sized, Portrait Format, Summary Sheet with 7 ability boxes, blankable skills (40 something), 4 save lines, and I'm trying to squeeze 4 AC lines. I want to have a companion sheet (the leveling one that normally is paired with the summary sheet), but it is taking a while to finish because I have to use 2 different programs to make it (Illustrator and Acrobat). If ther was some misunderstanding or such, please email me at the address above. I believe the infomation just listed is what you speak of, yes?

I don't want to give the impression that this is a half-finished product, because the sheets fully function on paper. However, there will definately be upgrades and updates, and I hope to keep you all as up to date as possible on the threads.

Don't worry -- the sheet is great! I wish I had one-quarter of the design talent you have! It would make my life so much easier.

I know you can't please everyone all the time -- nor should you try. So, like Dark Mistress, I am not trying to ask for special favors. I am just trying to figure out how the sheet will work. I tend to play PF in a different sort of way -- I subscribe to the "Simulationist" philosophy, in that I like the game to reflect "reality" as much as possible. Therefore, my character sheets tend to be a little different, as I use 9 abilities instead of just 6, the skill list looks a little different, etc. I do not expect there to be that kind of flexibility in the sheet, but whatever flexibility you could build into it would be wonderful!

Thanks again for all your hard work.

I think I may be a little confused.

I bought the sheets last night -- they are truly fantastic! But from what I understood from the conversation above, the sheets would be editable by each individual user, at least to a certain degree. For example, I thought there were 7 slots for abilities, and that I would be able to type into them. But there aren't, and I can't.

Am I missing something? Am I confused? Do I need a fancy version of Acrobat?

Thanks --

On the topic of the number of ability scores, there are several schools of idea, which can be neatly folded into one of the three gaming models (see GNS at wikipedia).

What I want to say is that some gamers need more technical details about their characters in order to squeeze the most fun out of the game, and some will need less to reach the same goal. A role-playing game could very well be organized around two abilities : physical / mental. Some other RPG have 10 or more scores, some of them not even based on the same dice (saw Warhammer RPG once and was afwaid, vewy afwaid... ;-). I also saw somewhere (can't recall where... someone does?) a subsystem in which each D&D ability was split in two, giving a dozen abilities (strength was split into muscle/endurance, intelligence into reasoning/memory, or something like that). D&D has 6 defining abilities.

Pathfinder wouldn't change that big a staple from D&D, but you can adapt all you like. Take your pick of house-rules, there. Some of them having been explained in great lengths over the 'net, it's possible that you'd have less work to do than you envisoned.

As always... my post, my opinions, my two cents :-)

What a great find! The article in Wikipedia is really quite fascinating. After reading that, and a link to something called the Forge, which has all sorts of papers about gaming psychology and philosophy, I have realized that a good deal of the disagreements people are having here are due to differences in gaming philosophy. We are all looking for something a little different.

For example, for those who subscribe to "Gamist" philosophy -- those looking to optimize a character, those who enjoy game rules, those wondering who is better, the cleric or the rogue -- the 6 abilities work fine, as they always have. Why tinker with them?

However, I approached the problem from a Simulationist viewpoint, in that I want my RPG world to replicate the "real world" as much as possible (as much as that makes any sense in a sword and sorcery type game). For example, when I create new characters, I do not try to optimize them. Instead, I roll for race and gender, as well as social bakground and prior occupation, on demographic tables I have created. Abilities I roll completely randomly, and without switching them around, or re-rolling. What I get is what I get. The whole process -- up to class selection -- is completely random, because that is the way biology is. You play the game with what you are given. It's nerdy, I know, but I like to play like that.

Anyway -- it amazes me how coming from a different philosophical point of view can affect how one sees game mechanics.

The Forge is worth checking out, if you haven't seen it yet.

Because the attributes should be kept in check. We have 6 ability scores, the same set we have always had in the game.

Plus, where does it stop?

I can understand the backwards compatibility issue, and I can understand the importance of simplicity.

But, really, just because Gary Gygax came up with 6 attributes does not mean that 6 is the magic number. Rather than 7, 8, or 9 abilities, as others have suggested, it could have been 2. One could ask, "Where does the expansion of the number of abilities stop?" One could also ask "Where does the merging of abilities stop?" and, having folded together perceptive capability, willpower, and wisdom, continue on to fold Strength and Constitution together, etc.

It is interesting to see how many different ways people have thought about this. In my opinion, just because something is a certain way, doesn't mean that that's how it should be .

I do like the idea of Intuition and a Wisdom save.

By the way, if any one has encountered details of how others have expanded the number of abilities, can you point me in the direction of specific websites?

Thanks --

Well the unskilled NPC you're describing seems very "average," which to me implies a very low perception bonus. They can detect light and sound etc...because detecting those things requires like a 0 (look it up in the PFRPG!). Adventurers are NOT the norm, and are, in fact, extraordinary.

A perception ability really is an unnecessary complication, in my opinion. I think the current system accounts for it perfectly. I mean, its not the only stats that does two things. Charisma can mean any number of things (from attractiveness, to your force of personality, to your ability to lead people), which I think sets the precedent for concentrating on one aspect of the stat. For example, a wasting oracle will probably have a high charisma (and is probably very unattractive at that point) but he could still have a very strong personality.
At least, thats how I interpret it, a stat doesn't need to be all inclusive of what it describes, if you get what Im saying.

I see your point. But if you read again what I wrote, I stated that the unskilled NPC was very perceptive of light and sound -- not just that he could see and hear. Therefore, he should have a high Perception score, even if he is unskilled. Perception, I think, has much more to do with innate ability that actual training, anyway. A hawk, for example, has excellent eyesight. This is inborn, not due to practice or experience.

You bring up an excellent point about Charisma, and in fact, I think that Charisma should be split into two different abilities. On the one hand, there should be Charisma, defined as the strength of one's personality and leadership capability. Historical examples of individuals with high Charisma score would be Winston Churchill, Abrhaam Lincoln, Napolean Bonaparte -- none of them attractive, all of them inspiring to grear numbers of people.

On the other hand, there should also be Beauty, defined as physical attractiveness. In general, those individuals with high Beauty and low Charisma scores do not end up immortalized in the annals of history, because they make little impact on the world, at least in looking at the big picture. A good example, though, would be that attractive individual on whom you had a big crush in high school who turned out to be a social idiot and completely dull when you finally got to know them.

The only reason I am more focused on the problem of Wisdom as a "waste-dump" ability is that splitting Charisma into Charisma and Beauty is much less useful than liberating Perception and Willpower from Wisdom. As far as I can see, Beauty in general makes little difference in the 3.5 or PF world, as it would be used in such few skills. The only time I can think that it was useful in an RPG was with the old Victory Games James Bond, in which the Seduction skill (and hence one's physical attractiveness) was actually important.

Words are the problem.

"Dexterity" has a connotation meaning "nimble with the hands/fingers" which is why most subsequent RPGs have changed it in for "Agility" or something similar.

"Intelligence" is one of the slipperiest words in the English language, and entire disciplines of psychology have been unable to make a concrete definition of it.

Wisdom, in D&D/Pathfinder, turns out to mean "smarts that aren't book smarts". That happens to include perception. Tracing any of these words through their actual etymology reveals that they are all quite imperfect.

When considering a change such as "a Perception ability score", one must ask oneself is it really worth the effort? Or do most people "get" it the way it is?

I would propose that even though people may understand it, it would make more sense to modify the rules, so that consistency is achieved.

Class skills may sort of make up for the problem. But forget for a second about classes. Assume you have one individual who is unskilled, an NPC. They are very perceptive in terms of senses -- that is, they can detect light, sound, ect. -- but are not perceptive in regard to other's feelings, facial expressions, body language. They would have a high Perception ability score, but not Wisdom.

The reverse could be said for an elderly man, also unskilled. Perhaps he is nearly blind, and nearly deaf. But does that mean he is unwise in terms of formulating plans, or giving advice?

The same could, by the way, be said for willpower, which has also been rolled into Wisdom. If a character is wise, does that mean he or she is able to withstamd great amounts of pain? Or if a character is foolish, does that mean he or she cannot?

The language, and what it denotes, is important, and I will say that I am surprised that this was not addressed when PF was designed, as the designers paid an enormous amount of attention to and devoted a great deal of energy to minute details elsewhere.

And now I would like to bring something up that has bugged me for some time about D&D, and now bugs me about PF.

Does anyone else find it strange that Perception -- the capacity to see, hear and smell -- is tied into Wisdom? Why is there not an ability called Perception, on which the Perception skill could then be based?

"Wisdom" means insight, common sense, emotional intellgence. It really is an attribute separate from perceptive capability, the ability to see a hidden foe, to hear a quiet sound. Why are the two tied together, other than for simplicity's sake? It makes no "real world" sense.

For example, a cleric may be wise -- but should he be able to hear and see better than the rogue with whom he travels?

Or, a rogue can see hidden objects in the shadows, and pick the slightest sound out from a din -- but is he therefore automatically a wise sage?

Really, it makes no sense. When the PF designers were overhauling the world's oldest RPG, they should have added Perception as an ability, correcting one of the most basic -- but far-reaching -- problems in 3.5. In fact, I've been working toward making it a house rule. But I wish the PF designers had done the work -- so I wouldn't have to!

Just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

While the official Paizo GM Screen is of the highest quality and fairly fantastic, for my personal tastes I like the 4-panel landscape format. I also didn't need the XP info--so I put my own screen together and added a couple of things I found more useful, such as the AOO action chart and a list of conditions.

Printing the PDF might take a little playing with the settings (such as setting landscape and turning off resizing and auto-center), but otherwise the pages came out great for me. So paste them to some card stock or just print them out and use them as reference.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/downloads

Awesome! It looks like you put a lot of work into this. Thanks for sharing.

What bugs me is the myth that the war was because of slavery/. Certainly, it was one of the causes, but Lincoln really only promised freedom to the slaves because it gave him support from a lot of the northerners and such. He actually made a speech later stating that he believed that black people should, essentially, be subservient to white people.

I would also point out that the Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the Confederacy, not those who were in the slave-holding states of the Union (yes, there were slaves still in the North).

It was used as a tool to weaken the Confederacy and win the war; to Lincoln, it was not an end in itself.

That all makes sense, and I am sure encourages creation of products that would otherwise never see the light of day. I did not realize that the relationship was a two-way street (that is, both the patron and the company benefit, not just the company).

I've only ever seen one published d20 adventure tailored for evil groups, No Mercy, where you are expected to crush a slave revolt in some miserable city or somesuch. (personally I figure most groups sided with the rebellion anyway. row row fight the powah and all that)

One thing to add to the whole group-cohesiveness issue is that just because someone is evil doesn't mean they have to be incapable of caring about their comrades, whether it's because of honor, sentimental attatchment, or genuine love of friends and family.

Thula the priestess of Shalak the Venom Goddess still cares about her foolhardy, hotblooded assassin brother and their little sister working at the inn back home after all.

I've only participated in one "evil"-campaign, and half the people in that were more neutralish really. Conan RPG, set in Stygia. Lots of manipulation and whatnot but everyone with one exception avoided @#$%ing there they ate. The fact that almost all of them shared an origin(freed gladiatorial slaves) helped get them all on the same page too.

PLAYERS IN THAT GAME KEEP OUT:

** spoiler omitted **

Holy smokes! Alderac actually has published a number of d20 evil adventures! Cool!

Not intending to be sarcastic, but are you familiar with how the patronage projects work? I just want to be sure before I respond in length so I don't come across as patronizing. Thanks. :)

I'm not at all familiar with the concept. It seems sort of odd to me, actually. I've never heard of it being done in the gaming world -- only with projects like the Sistine Chapel!

Don't get it confused with Paizo. It's Super Genius Games that's asking. Even though Michael put in a lot of work on this, it's just one person doing it in his spare time versus people who do it for a living. A lot of that money has to be used to contract out freelancers, artists, and printing. To be truthful, their patronage plea for $70k is chump change. Finally, there needs to be something that's publicly standardized and available in an easy to obtain distribution channel for the masses to obtain. I'm sure if you ask Michael, he'd probably be interested in what they're attempting to accompish despite all the work he put in here.

But then again, I'm biased ... I've been bugging someone to take up the mantle and they answered the call. :P

I see your point and thank you for the correction. Nonetheless, I do think that Michael -- one person -- has already done an immense amount of work. Add some editing, artwork, playtesting -- and you have PF GW. A significant part of the work is already done.

I, too would love to see PF Modern, Sci-fi/Future, and GW/Apocalypse. But I do think it is a bit strange to be passing the hat prior to *any* work being done. In the old days, TSR -- admittedly, a large company -- did not come asking for money to start its projects. The writers got an idea, got a sense for the market, and went for it. What if -- and I speak in generalities here, not about the PF Modern per se -- what if the product is sub-par? What if those who forked over money to begin with were unhappy with it?

My point is simply -- one person has put an immense amount of work into PF Gamma World, and it looks great. Why is a company coming around asking for money up front (for PF Modern), without even a preliminary sketch? As far as ths version of Gamma World is concerned -- why should the wheel be re-invented? Michael's work is good, and should be used, and he should be credited and compensated for it fairly by whatever company (should there be one) thinks it can polish and market the game.

It's true that most things that purport to be "evil" are pretty tepid and lead to silliness like the Belt of Michael Jackson or dark lords (*cough* VOLDEMORT *cough*) who are mostly coasting on old laurels and hardly killing anyone these days.

But then comes the question of exactly what is evil anyway? Toadies of the dark gods? Sociopaths? Religious zealots? Mercenaries?

Until you decide what constitutes "evil" you're going to have a lot of these problems.

Great point! My 6 year old son commented on Star Wars the other day, saying, "The Imperials think they're the good guys, right?" It is, to a certain extent, all relative. The tribe of goblins living life in relative quiet seclusion probably views that band of adventurers raiding their homes as "evil." Not a bad plot line -- goblins get revenge on the humans who wiped out their tribe. Something like that would work.

While I certainly can't speak for Paizo, I do think that it's extremely unlikely that they will publish anything under their trademark that requires or even caters to evil characters. The last thing that they, or any other company, want is a commentator on Fox News holding up a copy of their product and talking about how it very specifically encourages cold blooded murder, kidnapping, arson, or regicide. Anyone who lived through the "DnD is of the Devil" '80s knows that it just isn't worth the hassle.

And yes, I do understand that adventurers are really just murderous hobos, but there is a difference between laying waste to the bad guys in the service of goodness and light, and a massacre of the innocent in service to dark forces. The former is defensible, the latter is just asking for a Congressional investigation.

Besides, every adventure ever written can be easily adapted to "evil" play. Just change the alignments of the bad guys and tweak the motivation of the PCs.

I agree that such an adventure may not appeal to the public at large. However, to make a finer point, I would propose that being an evil PC does not mean you would prey on the innocent. I envision, for example, a character who sees such puny creatures as unworthy of his attention -- instead, he directs his ire toward more powerful, good-aligned targets...wizards, kings, paladins. Someone who can really offer a challenge. Someone whose undoing would truly cripple the forces of good.

I wish creating an adventure for evil PC's were as simple as changing the alignment of the villains of the adventure. But -- how could you argue, for example, that evil PC's have an overwhelming motivation to take on the devils of Council of Thieves? Maybe if they were demonic-ortiented PC's that would work, but then most of them would be CE and the party would probably fall apart.

In Burnt Offerings, it would be even more difficult to rationalize an evil party's involvement. Why would they want to take on goblins? The promise of treasure alone would probably not be worth it. And it wouldn't make much sense, I think, to change the alignment of the goblins. One would have to re-work the entire adventure, change townspeople to drow, and change goblins to elves, or some such.

I think the OP is looking for published material with a "This party is evil" bent. If so, I don't think I've ever actually seen such. I would, however, like to add my voice and say that I would TOTALLY love to see some published evil modules/adventures/AP's.

I may be bad... but I feel goooood.

I think there would be quite a market -- an untapped one! -- out there for anyone willing to put some time and effort into writing adventures for evil PC's.

As far as group cohesion is concerned -- I agree that a group of CE PC's will not last long. However, get some LE PC's, along with one or maybe two NE or CE characters together -- give them a common hatred (elves!), a common goal (kill the elves!), and some common sense (work together to kill more elves!) -- and you may find that the party lasts longer than expected. Especially if the LE members keep to NE/CE ones in check. I also love the idea of a more powerful warlord/guild leader at home...someone who will have the heads of those who undermine his/her efforts to kill as many elves as possible. Or assassinate the elf prince, or whatever.

It certainly all rests on character motivation -- that is where role-playing comes in, right?

Has anyone out there found some good adventures for evil PC's -- you know, where you get to smite the paladin, blackmail the king, rob the treasury, kidnap the mayor? Wage war on the forces of good? Liberate ancient artifacts of evil?

If not, has anyone at Paizo thought about writing an arc for evil PC's? It could be very interesting!

This is truly amazing! I can't fathom the amount of work involved in putting this together.

That having been said...you put all of this together -- for free, on your own time. Meanwhile, Paizo is saying they need $70,000 or so to even start thinking about PF d20 Modern!?!

If you ask me, you have done an immense amount of work that should be brought to publishing.

Have you guys at Paizo thought about that? This looks, at first glance, like a great product. Seems like this is a great, solid start for PF d20 Future/Apocalypse and that you should talk to MJ66 about using his work and compensating him fairly for it.

Everyone would benefit -- author, Paizo, players.

Does anyone know how may pages this has? Amazon says 28 in all. Could this be right? Please tell me for just under $10 we get more than 28 pages.

I would not sign up for a PFRPG modern, but I could for PFRPG sci-fi.

I have to agree. I would love to see something like Star Frontiers written in a PF-style, and hopefully more elegant and interesting than TSR originally designed it.

When you have that project in the works, let me know. I will be in for that one.

I would be printing in B&W off a copy machine/printer in my office. Sounds like it should be ok.

Has anyone tried to print out the PDF?

I made the mistake of ordering the PF core rulebook as PDF and tried to print it out...never again!

Does this one print out without problems, or does it take forever due to art/text/layering/whatever?

Thanks, Reckless -- your suggestion rocked. I'm sure I will be using printme1 for other PDF's down the line, too.

AL

My Core Rulebook arrived today from printme1.com -- it looks great! It's black and white, that's true -- but it is just like I wanted it. I have to recommend that website for anyone printing out PDF's.

Cheers!

AL

Reckless wrote:

For around $20.00 you can get a black and white copy printed by printme1.com and they will mail it to you, included in that price. Takes about a week to get it.

Just curious, though, why not buy the actual book from Paizo. Color, hardbound goodness awaits.

Thanks for that link, it looks like it'll be amazingly helpful. Even if/when I get a hardbound copy of the Pathfinder RPG book, it could be useful for my copy of the Revised Tome of Horrors.

That said... they say you don't need a PayPal account to use the site, but they take all their payments through PayPal. Just how does that work?

I ordered through printme1.com...sounds like they can do it. I'm waiting eagerly at my doorstep.

They do accept credit cards, if I remember correctly, as well as Paypal.

I'll let you guys know how it looks.

By the the way, I think the idea of using post-it notes is great, but my house rules tend to be a little (i.e., overly complex)...To the usual Abilities, I have added Perception and Willpower (thus making Wisdom just, well, Wisdom, rather than a catch-all Ability), as well as Beauty. In addition, I changed the skill list and Abilities that are used to modify those skills, so there are a few charts I need to keep handy. I also use a fair number of rules for the Unearthed Arcanum book, including weapon proficiencies, vitality points (rather than hp) and spell points. That's why I would like to have the ability to insert pages appropriately into a 3-ringbound Core Rulebook.

By the way -- thanks for all the help. I will probably try printme1.com. My printer doesn't have enough ink for the whole rulebook, and I don't want to have to explain nearly-nude gnome females to any other co-workers!

Thanks again!

Michael

Just curious, though, why not buy the actual book from Paizo. Color, hardbound goodness awaits.

A good question. I have a fair number of house rules, and I would like to have those in the correct part of the rulebook. It is much easier to insert these pages into the correct spots of a Core Rulebook when it is in a three-ring binder, rather than insering loose pages into the (beautifully done, I know) Core Rulebook hardback. I am sacrificing aesthetics for practicality. Unless anyone has other suggestions, to which I am always open...

Has anyone confronted (and solved) this problem?

I bought the PF Core Rulebook PDF. It is sitting on my computer. I want to print it out.

I tried to print out the first 20 pages in black and white -- at work. I thought the printer had frozen, I turned it off and went home. I came back in the next morning and was handed my 20 pages by a co-worker...then I tried explaining why I was printing out pictures of scantily clad elven females...

So I took it to a print/copy shop, where they also tried to print it out in black and white. After 3 hours of trying, their printer had still not produced anything. They quit trying.

How do I print this PDF? I don't need the pictures, just the text, really. But when you save the thing as a .txt file, all of the tables are scrambled and nothing makes sense.

What do you think?

I would like to know how people who want to keep the Concentration skill justify it being based on CON. Pretty much every example of how it might be used is an exercise in mental focus, not physical resistance. Enlighten me. :)

Great question. 3.5 (and actually every version of D&D back to the Basic set), as well as Pathfinder now, have all fallen into the trap of lumping various abilities together, when in fact they have nothing to do with each other.

For example, one would think that Concentration would be dependent on willpower, right? Unfortunately, though, there has never been a "Willpower" attribute per se in D&D/Pathfinder. Instead, it gets lumped into Wisdom, which is a waste-basket designation for common-sense, empathy, perception and willpower. Unfortunately, these four things are not necessarily related, and so one can wind up with a 90 year-old cleric with a high Wisdom score who can miraculously hear the slightest sound much better than any of his compatriots, due to his very high Wisdom modifier for the Listen/Perception skill.

My suggestion is that Perception and Willpower should be added to the current list of character abilities. This is the way it has been done -- and very successfully, might I add -- in other RPG's. That would solve a ton of issues, including which ability Concentration should be based on -- Willpower, of course!

Traits are a great way to add some depth to a character, as well as a little pizzazz.

To do away with the min/max'ing bit, perhaps traits should have positive and negative aspects, much like they did in the computer RPG Arcanum -- with the good you get the bad (just like in real life), and things balance out.

That way, folks could either take a trait or two, or leave them. The end result would be a more interesting, but not necessarily more powerful, character.

An open letter to Paizo, and one to Wizards of the Coast, sent by e-mail to each, and accompanied by a notice from Amazon.com documenting my cancellation of my order for the 4e rulebooks:

TO PAIZO: Paizo and 4 ed "D&D"
Hello folks at Paizo!

I want to say thank you!!! -- a million times -- for your ingenuity, creativity, and hard work at publishing quality d20 products. I also want to share with you an e-mail I sent to Wizards of the Coast, which expresses sentiments that are shared by many, many gamers, as I am sure you know. I also sent to WotC my cancellation notice from Amazon, for the 4e rulebooks -- I have vowed never to spend a dime on WotC products again, given their shoddy craftsmanship and puerile nature.

I want to encourage you to continue to support 3.5 e, and D&D as it was meant to be. WotC has advocated the throne. Paizo is the heir apparent to D&D!

Thank you! Please keep up the good work -- and let 4e die in peace, as it soon will.

Michael Willers

TO WOTC

Dear Wizards,

I hate to do this, but I feel like my opinion -- and those of others who, like me, are significantly disappointed -- should be heard. I have been playing AD&D for over 25 years. I started with the original Gary Gygax AD&D books. I have become familiar with all the different forms that you have called D&D. For years I have been saddened by the way you have padded the game with fluff, churning out rulebook after poorly written rulebook, with few adventure modules, simply -- it seems -- for point of generating revenue for Hasbro, rather than for a true love of the game.

This 4th edition is horrible. It is not D&D -- it is some other game, a tabletop version of Diablo or World of Warcraft. Gone are the intricacies, subtleties and intelligence of the true D&D that Gygax started. Gone are the choices, the complexities, the multitude of possibilities that Gygax originally wrote into the game. What were you thinking? The 4th edition is a dumbed-down husk of what was once D&D. The language you used to write it -- unlike the language Gygax used -- is demeaning, appropriate for a 2nd grader, not an adult. If you planned to attract hordes of videogame-addicted kids to your game (note that I wrote "your game" and not "D&D") and their (i.e., their parents') dollars to Hasbro, you may succeed. But I think it is important that you know that you are losing those of us intelligent, thoughtful adults who made the game successful from the start -- those who have been with D&D from its infancy. I mourn the death of TSR. I will never again send one dollar toward Wizards. As far as I am concerned, you have killed D&D.

Michael Willers