Harbinger of Chaos's page

At least your RP isn't a stretch. :) (joking, really, don't kill me)

Did I hear "Green Hat Tuesday" being mentioned?

Well it has indeed been some time since I have spread a bit of chaos onto these boards. But, Oh how I will miss the good-natured banter of Andius. His ranting oratory and attempts to organize around the concept that Rovagug was coming, had spawned my very existence.

I shall enjoy guiding Bluddwolf in his preparation in teaching a class on being deliciously, chaotic.

Date of the event: 1-18-15
Time of the event: 00:23

Location - Thornkeep Bank
NS-EW Coordinates:
Hex Coordinates:
Hex Description:

Victim(s): Harbinger

Attacker(s): Bluddwolf and Co.

Were you given any warnings before being attacked? (Only keep answers that apply)

Yes, I was warned that I was trespassing/gathering without permission.
Yes, I was warned to hand over all of my goods.
Yes, other communication was given. Description:
No warning or other communication was given.

No, of course not, otherwise it would not have been "Non Consensual"

Did the warning or communications give you a non-violent option for resolution?

Yes.
No.

Did you comply with the communications?

Yes
No
N/A

Did you try to fight back or run?

Fought back
Ran
Both
Neither, I died

Were you killed?

Yes, after complying with warnings/communications.
Yes, after attempting to fight back.
Yes, after attempting to flee.
Yes, without warning or provocation.
No, after complying with warnings/communications.
No, after attempting to fight back.
No, after attempting to flee.

Were you killed multiple times?

Yes
No

Do you feel you were "grief'ed"? Yes, I died and then I cried for my loss of durability

Were possessions taken?

Yes, all of them.
Yes, all except what I had equipped.
Yes, some of them.
No, nothing taken, other than my sense of security and self worth. I asked my Mommy to hold me, and I almost feel better now

Were the attackers respectful?

Yes, very respectful.
Yes, somewhat respectful.
Meh.
No, somewhat rude.
No, extremely rude.
They were cold blooded killers. Said nothing, just killed. Can you imagine my dismay, I returned from getting a snack and found I was killed! People in local told me it was Bluddwolf and some others. He is a reputed "meanie!!"

Description of the events:

This report was fabricated to illustrate the flaws in such a system as this

Besides the goblin "bag of itchy stuff"

Really? Like there isn't too much fun we can have with this?

When will there be a Goblin "Bag of Sticky Stuff"?

I thought Qallz had returned. It has been a long while since a post had been deleted or a thread locked down.

But it is Tuesday, and I have my Green Hat on.... So maybe a bit of chaos is needed?

hem·or·rhage noun \ˈhem-rij, ˈhe-mə-\

: a rapid and uncontrollable loss or outflow

This thread just keeps on winning! Does everyone have their Green Hats prematurely ready for Tuesday?

Are pots of gold involved?

Pots of Copper or Buckets of Blood, there is no way to predict what you will receive.

Ah yes, it is in fact the day.... September 23, one year ago (on a Monday), that Green Hat Tuesday was born.

If the servers are up, you can all expect a day of Merriment and Carnage!

disclaimer: since we don't have hats in the game, color any item you have in green.

Also remember, not wearing green will afford you no protection from someone who is. Expect great showings of generosity, and depravity.

A super non-related fact (based on caffeine give him migraines): did you know ticks could make you allergic to meat? I didn't believe until I read the abstract of their project. oO

If you eat the tick will you regain your tolerance for meat?

Oh... I bet if you allow yourself to be killed and then raised as a Zombie, you will like meat again!!

BTW Kemedo, I noticed that in one of your posts you were pretty close to being....

Pro Cannibalism! Now I know what goes in in those Brazilian Steak Houses I so love!

"peep"

I'm not a fan of sugar covered marshmallows, although they do look a lot funnier when you burn them over a fire pit! They sizzle more too...And you can torment young children with them, while making s'mores.

Deeeliciousss!!

I plan on destroying all of you at least once. Myself included.

You bring the cups, I'll bring the Kool-Aid

I too wish to see the whole world spiral down the chaotic toilet, set flame once it is coated in feces, half the population turned to the undead and the other half the eaters of necrotic flesh and when there are only a few left.... Ahh, that refreshing Kool-Aid....

Can't we just all pitch in and burn the world down, and then pass out the cups of Kool-Aid!

On a scale from Spencer Reed to The Zero Theorem how evil are you?

Our scale does not start with non evil and work up from there. It starts with Hannibal Lecter level evil and then runs off the chart from there.

I'm just curious to see what the Tower wars will look like in the beginning before the month 2EE wave brings the settlements to their full landrush numbers

and wonder what the M1EE to M2EE ratio is for the avg settlement

I can't wait until OE, when thousands of rabid, Murder Zergers swarm in and begin setting the world ablaze in glorious chaos!!

we are now 8.05. Somebody hates us. 8.12 is 7th position.

.... It is "Them".......

Nice additions, Guurzak. Evil played well.

I am crashed that I did not receive such praise.... No extra servings of Gnome Tartare for you, Lord Hobs "The Spinner of Lies and Fomenter of Despair".

Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

Because there is Evil and then there is Vile.

We never sought to be a Vile Empire. There is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath.

Most people do not appreciate the difference however.

so·ci·o·path [soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-] Show IPA

psy·cho·path [sahy-kuh-path] Show IPA
noun
a person with a psychopathic personality, which manifests as amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.

Related terms:

im·mor·al [ih-mawr-uhl, ih-mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.

a·mor·al [ey-mawr-uhl, a-mawr-, ey-mor-, a-mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.
2.
having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person.

I see psychopaths as being potentially amoral, while sociopaths are more likely immoral.

Bluddwolf = Sociopath, immoral character.

Harbinger = Psychopath, amoral character.

Because there is Evil and then there is Vile.

We never sought to be a Vile Empire. There is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath.

I see your "Vile" and I raise it a "Despicable" and a "Loathsome".

Quasi Evil...is that like a little pregnant?

Fixed the link

So much for the big, bad, evil empire image...cookies and milkshakes...

I'm doing my part with cannibalizing slaves, animating their corpses and in some cases eating the zombies for a second time. Then again, the Empire is only Not Evil Enough which is why I'm not a part of it.

Poor Petey. He could fetch ale better then most Zombies... but now he's become dinner. Again.

Don't worry about poor Petey, in time he too shall pass. ;-). /snicker

Harbinger of Chaos wrote:

"Standing quests for evil factions will often put players in conflict with other evil factions. "

This I hope they do not do. This is "evil light" and not try evil. I want to do very bad things to very good and innocent people (NPC or PC).

Evil that only targets good is "evil light." Evil that targets good and evil is true evil.

Also, the reason Good or at least Neutral outnumber evil is because Evil feeds on evil. It is uncommon for Good to go after Good.

I did not mean to make it seem that I was excluding evil from my possible victims. I'm just hoping that GW does not go down the road that Cryptic did with City of Villains, where Evil vs Evil was just about the only evil that there was.

And your evil is definitely NOT Disney evil, dude. [/b]Whoa!

Yeah, that is the kind of evil I want. The kind of evil that makes you say "Whoa! Now that was evil!" I want Clive Barker kind of evil, HP Lovecraft kind of evil. Even Gargamel vs. the Smurfs was evil vs. innocents.

"Standing quests for evil factions will often put players in conflict with other evil factions. "

This I hope they do not do. This is "evil light" and not try evil. I want to do very bad things to very good and innocent people (NPC or PC).

I don't want to just kill these good people. I'm a cannibalistic Necromancer. I want to enslave them, eventually kill them, eat parts of them, use other parts of them for evil potions or dark magics, and then I want to animate their dead corpses and have them do my bidding.

I want evil to be really evil and not done kind of Disney version of evil.

Now where did that Zombie wander off to....

....choke......chew...chew....tries to hide fork and knife behind his back......

"What zombie?"

Bluddwolf wrote:

Considering many of us will have multiple characters, and some will be playing very different characters (mains vs alts) attributing IC comments to all characters of the same player is inaccurate.

But as I said, I'm not all that concerned about it. I have no problem with my character's statement either.

Now, it makes Fult sooo curious to know Bluddwolf's relatives... Maybe a benignant gnome with gardening skills and a passion for astronomy? or a lunatic sorcerer searching for old grimoires? <Fult let his mind consider all kinds of possibilities>

He could be a Chaotic Evil Necromancer, who wishes to see the whole world burn. A smallish man, very sinister in his sense of humor but ver foul in his desire to inflict pain and suffering to others.

He would buy entire families of slaves and the one by one, kill each, cannibalize all bit their faces, animate their corpses and send each into the cage of their family to kill the next. He will revel in their screams of horror! Then when all that his left are a half dozen or so animated dead, he will order them all into the cage, shut the door and then nuke them with a fire ball.

All of this while proudly flying the heinous flag, wearing a green hat and dancing and signing praise to Rovagug.

Hey guys

The offer to join the core land rush was made as part of the introduction to War of Towers, and was not in fact a blanket offer to rejoin at any point. Switching any those three guilds to the normal land rush rules in the last two weeks of the land rush we think would create too many weird and unfavorable situations so we're not going with it.

Lee, you were 879 posts too soon! Now this thread will never reach 1000!!

The only thing that I'm interested in knowing...

What does Hobs think?

We haven't had a thread break a thousand posts for a while, maybe that is what this is all about?

It would be Ryan Daney's crowning achievement! Yeah, Ryan!!

ooooooohh. Gotcha, well week 10 is fast approaching.. all will be revealed soon enough... or maybe not?

Please tell me you are at least hinting to some chaos!

/rubs hands together

You smell that?...... Smells like....... Fear!

Fear of what? Week 10 is near! Who knows who and what is lurking in the wings, just waiting for week 10, then we may see dozens of groups swoop in from nowhere with 50+ members and bump out all of those small guilds.

Week 10.... Bring on the Chaos!!

We'll call it The Ballad of Green Hats.

Only if it is sung on a Tuesday.

Andius, had you explained *why* your experience mattered, it might have worked out better for you. Just a tip for future reference, the statement "I have experience, therefore I'm right" doesn't carry much weight. "I have experience, this is what I saw and how it relates to the current situation" carries a lot of weight. Your goal to take that position was a decent one, but your reasoning was largely "because I said so". Several of us advanced V or W as a compromise position, but you seemed unwilling to advocate for such a good position. And had you remained on the council and said "We have a split between the SE mountains and with being near the Spiral. The militarily wise choice is to go with the Spiral." I'm pretty sure that is where TEO would be.

I sincerely wish you happiness in your relationship and success with the Sentinels. I also hope that some day your bitterness and anger dissipates and you are able to move forward from the experience and grow from it.

Best of luck!

Alexander Damocles

Could this be the true hidden agenda? Andius broke off from TEO, joined the only group that wound give him the freedom to run his own thing, wait for Thod's group to break into the top ten (losing hunker down bonus), then swoopibng in on the last day of week 10 with 60 members of TEO and seizing "V", all under the name of the Sentinels and all fingers of damnation will point to UNC!

What a brilliant master stroke that would be! I bet this plot was hatched in the not yet revealed 3rd version of the Treaty of Rovagug, signed only with two signatures: Andius and Bluddwolf. Then the name if the unNamed will finally be known to all.

if you think this sort of thing is not possible, keep thinking that way, the we will drink your tears!

I think when and if the Goons arrive, they will have more than one member and their goal will not be to fight banditry or evil, but to conquer everyone that stands in their path.

They will of course take significant joy in bringing grief to the Care Bears, leaving them nothing but their tears!

I will of course sit back with my bag of popcorn, reclined in my Layz Boy and enjoy the chaos that will ensue.

There is a SAD thread, this is about Evil and how it will be visualized, emotionally felt and mechanized in the game.

@ Guurzak,

Core Alignment is set, not developed or earned. Active Alignment is the result of your actions, but not all actions even perceived negative ones have a reputation impact (ie. Criminal Flag, Trespasser, Heinous, etc). Then there was the discussion by the Devs that there may be a natural drift back towards your Core Alignment (no matter which it is) if you desired for that drift to take place (you could toggle it off).

So, the very (proposed) mechanics of the game will prove Ryan Dancey wrong, provided that the character does not engage in PVP vs. unflagged / non hostile state characters. Obviously, the easiest way to do that is to avoid direct PVP or to only engage in PVP in self defense.

The Role Playing part... If your character's motives are evil and his actions advance those motives, than the player is well on his way to playing a "meaningfully well played evil character." The only source of evil is not from doing actions that lose Reputation.

Sorry... had to break away from this in mid-stride, more will follow

Alignment and reputation coincide in the player's character, and are thus irrevocably related. 'Meaningful' in context of the game is codified in Reputation. Thus, I dispute your premise.

"Meaningfulness" is not just tied to Reputation. There is also Meaningful Role Playing and Meaningful adherence to alignment. Neither of these have any connection to Reputation.

It is widely accepted that you can play CE and be high, medium or low rep. You can likewise play LG, and be high, medium or low rep.

I could very easily role play a chaotic evil merchant, and have maximum reputation and still adhere perfectly to both chaos and evil while playing the role.

* You can replace merchant with any role

Care to give me a link to it?

link

Oh, how clever. I though you were using misdirection, scattering your back trail with heavy clusters of anti-alignment 'inner motivation' while positioning anti-reputation claymores to catch those running the other way.

As fun as that sounds, and yes I have used misdirection and or other deceptive methods to get the response I was looking for, I never combine alignment with reputation.

This thread is solely concerned with alignment, and I reject any premise that alignment and reputation are inevitably intertwined.

I am no fan of an alignment system, that is true, but if we are to have one I want it to be meaningful. I also want it to be mostly focused on role playing and to have very limited and balanced in game mechanical effects, if any at all.

@ Elorebaen,

Every evil character in a fiction story / novel is a character where evil was done well (unless of course the writing itself sucked). A TT RPG or an MMO is no different, other than the medium being used to deliver the story. This is not to say that some do not play evil well, just as some do not play good aligned characters very well either. I certainly think that more than a handful do play their characters well, regardless of their character's alignment.

While it's certainly a cool aspect, I think the 3rd point can be a little problematic for 2 reasons...

- It can start to get pretty resource intensive. GW is a pretty small outfit, already tackling alot of hefty mechanical challenges. Having to create 2 sets of art assets/animations for every action starts to become pretty resource intensive.

- It kinda kills the "wolf in sheeps" clothing variety of Evil that is more intent on seducing good or really only showing it's fangs when it has the victem alone sort of play that can be very popular with some players.

- There is also the horror movie dynamic where if you show the monster too often, the monster looses it's impact and ceases being scary.

In other words, I think it's fine to do a little bit of it, but I'd really want to reserve it for a limited set of actions that are tied directly to some strong cosmological Evil event.

I contemplated this and that is why I reserved the idea for just a few select skill / feats at the highest tier.

Harbinger of Chaos wrote:

I the manifestation of evil just found in the motives of our characters, or can an evil act be differentiated from another act under a different set of motivations?

Wups... there goes Bludd... I mean Harby with his 'internal motivations' thing again. We know the objective, we know the arguments.

Are you marketing tee shirts now Bluddwolf?

I'm willing to bet you don't know my objective in this thread? But I'm not going to string it along and sift through your incorrect guesses. I'll just lay it out.

First objective, to have "Evil" be truly evil and not some half-heated evil-lite kind if crap we have seen in other MMOs. Now this objective should not have been to hard to figure out, I pretty much said it in my third post in this thread.

My second objective is to get an idea of what GW has in mind for alignment based skill / feats. I'm hoping that if alignment is going to be an important feature, that it will have many layers to it and that it will have significant meaning, especially from a role playing perspective.

Third, I want other players to accurately perceive your alignment through your actions and that this perception should be reinforced through visual, emotional and even mechanical queues.

Guurzak had asked earlier, if I were referring to animations, and partial answer to that is "yes". Yes, I think there should be alignment based animations. That might sound overly detailed, but not if it were only applied to the highest tiered, alignment based skill / feats.

Again, I use th dagger thrust example....

A Lawful Good dagger thrust would be a precise and clean strike. This would no be a one-shot kill, but a finishing blow that would be mercifully quick.

Whereas, a Chaotic Evil finishing blow might be a dagger trusted and then twisted in a victim's gut, spilling his entrails.

Yes I know this is not Age of Conan, but you get the gist of what I'm taking about, or at least I hope you all do.

Harbinger of Chaos wrote:

Could there be a difference that is visual, emotional and mechanical (game wise)?

What I mean by true to the source is that if there's something in the Pathfinder IP that correlates to what you're talking about, then I'm all for it.

There is, its called alignment. But, if you are asking that there be no instances of feats / skills in PFO if they do not exist in PFRPG TT, I could not disagree more.

The PF iteration of an MMO will be able to do many different things, mechanically, that PFRPG TT can not do. The opposite is true as well.

The gist of this thread is to address the problem (my opinion) that playing an "evil" character is put into this context:

The usual dynamic: Good vs. Evil from the Good perspective
The City of Villains Model: Good vs. Evil; Evil vs. Evil from the Good perspective.

What I'm hoping for is that Evil will not be just a featureless declaration that "I am evil", but it will have the visuals, emotional impact and yes even mechanics of... "Holy crap, that was really evil!"

Star Wars the Old Republic almost captured that with its Dark side / Light side choices but they got it wrong in that the "truly evil" choices could be found by playing a Jedi Knight with all Dark Side choices.

First, since this is more a thread to discuss the Empire of Xeilias, recruitment for same, our policies, etc., a wholesale discussion of "Evil" might be better done in a thread dedicated to the topic, such these:

Evil with Style
The Face of Evil

For those who like to quote the Devs or Ryan to add authority to their case, here's a post from Ryan in the thread On Being Evil:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I think the key thing to understand is that roleplaying evil EFFECTIVELY means being evil as a group, not a lone wolf individual. To really be roleplaying evil, you'll need to be trying to make a persistent change to the world in line with the kinds of goals of your patrons. And they won't care much about random murders or pick-pocketing. They'll want mass sacrifice, they'll want paragons to renounce their faiths, they'll want obedience on the part of the potent and fear on the part of the weak. En masse. Repeatedly. Sustainably.

As for Hobs the character, I have already written in his backstory how he is more forced than chooses to shift towards Neutral (not Evil). At this point, I foresee him living in Lawful Neutral Callambea.

However (also more suited to it's own thread), I plan on playing a second character who will help to provide RP opportunities for others wishing to enjoy an Evil character, whether with mains, alts/Destiny's Twins, non-experience gaining "extra" characters, etc. This will also hopefully allow for such "bad guys" to be made available for other people's player-made quests/plot-lines. If we want to ensure that Evil is done well, that it isn't just a cover for griefers, as Ryan suggests above, there needs to be a concerted effort to create meaningful Evil in PFO by those who have the desire, knowledge, and commitment to do so. It will take multiple players who see...

I actually started a thread for this discussion, so if you wouldn't mind to repost this there and then I will delete this response.

Sorry about the slight tangent.

Didn't Dancey already address the killing being an evil act thing? The difference between killing and murder?

I think there could be a difference of representation of evil, but I wouldn't want one; unless it's something that could be tied to the IP of Pathfinder. They still need to remain true to the source as much as they can in my opinion.

I fail to see how what I ask is not staying true to the source. If that means that the source is an Alignment system.

Alignment is more than the motivations that cause actions. Alignment is also manifested in the actions themselves. But, even if the action is the "same" (ie. stabbing someone) it will look different, inspire different emotions and may even have a different result based on the alignment of the character performing that act.

Being stabbed by a dagger wielded by a Lawful Good Paladin should be a very different experience than being stabbed by the same dagger wielded by a Chaotic Evil Barbarian.

I the manifestation of evil just found in the motives of our characters, or can an evil act be differentiated from another act under a different set of motivations?

Example: Killing is said to be an "Evil" act. So far, the only thing that differentiates a good aligned character that is killing something, from an evil character killing something, are their motivations. That is an invisible and possibly even fake form of manifestation.

Will evilly motivated acts be visually more evil than the same acts motivated by neutral or good motivations?

Will there be certain feats that are alignment based? Certain attack types that can only be used by a particular alignment and have effects that match the motivations of that alignment?

A good aligned character may wish to kill you, because you are their war enemy, but they will use methods that are quicker and "cleaner". Whereas an evil, particularly a chaotic evil, character will kill you using methods that are more akin to cruel butchery, painful damage over time, to be finished off with a death blow.

Some may say, "It doesn't matter for the character how the death comes about, the end result is the same." While that is true, my question is:

Could there be a difference that is visual, emotional and mechanical (game wise)?

I have a few questions of the Hobz. Will you also turn to the freedom hating, Lawful Evil
alignment?

How will this alignment manifest itself within the empire?

Will it be truly Evil, the kind of evil that inspires amongst the weak; fear, feelings of oppression, despair, hopelessness and dread with each waking day

Or will this be nothing more than a hollow declaration of "yeah, we bad" but with no true manifestation of evil to really be felt?

That is also a question I pose to all of those who intend to play "evil" aligned characters. How will evil be manifested in your character's actions?

well at least it is a green hood.

It can not compare to my massive, Green Hat!

So, you are now an Evil Empire, with an Emperor who came to power as a nice guy who now spends his time wearing a hood.

I've seen this movie before....

It was all of that coffee you have been bringing him, and you know what effect the color green has on the Emprah!!

But LAWFUL.... Run off Green Little Golum, I have been spending months trying to plant and cultivate the seeds of chaos!

<the Harbinger bows his green hatted head in despair>

If one considers that corpses are edible, this thread could be titled A Moveable Feast.

I'll have that with an order of cheese sauce on the side please. YUMMYYYYY!

When I first read the thread title, the first thought that came to mind was collecting corpses!!!

Just imagine the day in the future who hen we have player housing, and you all could come and visits the home of The Harbinger. The splendor and ambiance of hundreds of corpses, stacked up in every corner.

Please Lord Hobs, have a seat and join me in a cup of tea.... Don't mind the flies, they are delicious.

Lol, how quickly you all flock to the words of "Bluddwolf the Agitator". So worried are you that he might say something, that the new passerby might take outside of your contextual view point.

Look to your own Proxima Sin of Blighthaven if you wish to see who sparked this discourse.

Now on an academic level, I see the difference between your accord and our coalition hinges on the difference between "mutual benefit" and "mutual support".

In my view mutual benefit is far more limiting than mutual support. However, I don't have the time to detail my thoughts on that now.

The other difference is that the Northern Coalition's non aggression is limited to not doing serious harm to settlement structures or excessive predation of resources at another members expense.

We can loot a corpse or Sad a caravan. We can rob from an outpost or a poi (even killing its NPC guards) and become criminal flagged for it, if illegal in those lands.

We can feud against each other if our self interests rise to the level that a feud is the only recourse.

But, settlement structures will be left intact and wars / settlement siege will not be waged. Caravans, Outposts or POIs will not be raided with frequency to do grievous economic harm. Nor will raiding be done on a whim, but only to fulfill a specific need.

I could be wrong, but I doubt the Roseblood Accord would allow for any of those activities.

Why Duffy you handsome and chaotic little demon you..... We shall light the world aflame and revel in the lamenting screams.