Grue's page

Heh...it's déjà vu all over again (meaning the complaints not the OP). I guess I shouldn't be surprised how often the Tomb comes up (or the stock standard assertions that come up with it). I won't dive into a discussion on the merits other than to say that the Tomb of Horrors was originally written by Gygax for use with his original home group (Rob Kuntz with his PC Robilar and his son Ernie...playing Tenser iirc... in particular) and it was eventually adapted for the Convention players. The original in its Con format is used unbridled in Bruce Cordell's Return to the Tomb of Horrors as a side note (and more than a few threads out there detailing the fairness of the Tomb).

I am a bit curious if there is something like the Tomb for Pathfinder (or even 3.x) as well. The mega-dungeons are far too long, the original Tomb of Horrors might seem short on page count but 1e modules have virtually nonexistent stat blocks and other governing text compared to a Pathfinder adventure. Written today, it would probably weigh in at the 28-32 page range. You could still probably finish it successfully in a single 4 to 6 hour session as well.

The real gem imo in the original Tomb was atmosphere, and most of that I felt was really boosted by the illustration book. So in line with Prethen, is there anything with the Tomb's feel with a set of illustrations to use along with the encounters\puzzles?

Overall better? That's questionable. Even people that wanted those items looked at have expressed disappointment of how they where 'fixed'. Making underpriced options suck instead of pricing them correctly isn't really making anything better: I don't find options that are a waste of space/ink 'better' in any way.

This I think is towards the root of why this sort of errata has been bugging me and why I dropped my subscriptions. I try to keep house rules to an absolute minimum (and the ones I do have are more geared toward table management than mechanics) so my players don't have to remember them and can just use online references to plan out their characters\do other research while at home. I like to have hard copy references at the table during a game session to keep the temptation of their phones rather than paying attention to the actions of their fellow players to a minimum. However, going through my first printing books to paste in errata notations is not a valuable use of my time, so going to the online reference during session due to these revisions makes more sense.

The other fork of the decreasing utility of hard copy books was the simple fact that the 'crunch' (mechanics) provided in them was largely a waste of page count. I don't like purchasing books that after giving it a good read through, only see a handful of feats that might be an option for a few builds (considering how few feats most characters get...), maybe an archetype or two that is a equal trade off with the vanilla option (and oft times the dross would have been better as a PRC or can be simulated by other basic choices), and maybe a half dozen magic items total that both are priced correctly and useful and\or affordable for PCs in a typical WBL range during a campaign.

I don't know if the problem is with paizo writers or the editors (or both) but options that are not somewhere in the range of being roughly equivalent of a core vanilla choice (whether it is a class ability, feat, or magic item) is not really an option (and making choices\tradeoffs is part of the fun of D&D). I think a lot of the perceived paizo overcompensation to err on the side of nerf that creates a lot of this page count dross comes from a lack of system mastery. They don't really display a feel for how the rules interact with an actual campaign. So way too many of these 'errata'... or rather revisions strike me as knee-jerk theory craft judgement calls rather than from actual experience.

Add to the fact many of these crunch additions would be eliminated at a glance if they were entries to paizo's RPG superstar contests for a number of reasons makes it hard to purchase that sort of professional output.

Eh... I wouldn't care if I didn't want to support (throw cash at) the company but this continuing issue hit my frustration limit. Sorry to vent.

I felt like many of the items Paizo addressed needed to be changed.

Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and Bracer's of Falcon's Aim were both far too good for the price. But I wish they had simply raised the price of the items to something fair instead of changing the mechanics.

Both are now items that will no longer be bought.

<Sigh>There are times I wonder if the folks writing for paizo actually play the game regularly. They certainly make a lot of decisions that make way too many feats, archetypes, and magic items utter dross (to outright traps over simulating the same 'flavor' using vanilla options in the case of too many archetypes).

Guess I'm just frustrated about the increasing uselessness of my printed books as a table reference (and one of the main reason I dropped my subscriptions), but...heh...is it too much to ask for the folks making these decisions to display a little system mastery?

Bracers of Falcon's Aim for instance should have had its price dropped from 4k to in the range of 400gp (1st level spell * 2000/5 because of 1 charge a day). I'd probably go with 800 gp as a final tweak given it's primarily a ranger self-buff spell (but still on druid list), but at 4k, a UMD skill and a druidic wand of aspect of the falcon would probably be the better option for a PC that really wanted the spell (not to mention it chews up a wrist slot).

The plethora of 'wearer must wear this item continuously for 24 hours before...' additions is just an eye-rolling insult to injury. Besides the lack of realism factor (who the heck goes days without taking off these sorts of accessories let alone stuff that would be uncomfortable to sleep with) but it makes me wonder what sort of campaigns (if any) the paizo folks play in given the interaction between earning experience and WBL.

For instance a Mnemonic Vestment is a 5k item. Just how many of these things are spontaneous casters buying to gain access to unknown spells on their caster lists? At what point does it become viable for a PC to budget buying a wardrobe of Mnemonic Vestments considering they have some basic resistances & enhancements to buy as well? 12th or 13th? Most campaigns are in their endgames by that point (and it's far from an 'I win' button). If a lower level PC wanted to spend his resources this direction and sacrifice basic coverage in other areas (and still have to use a spell slot to tap into it)...more power to them. But with the change it makes me wonder if paizo folks grok how the system comes together within a campaign.

Maybe if they stopped calling these updates 'errata' and use the word revision instead. Standard usage of errata is to correct an error...spelling mistakes, printing errors, clarify language. A number of these are mechanical revisions (and magic item pricing is still wildly inconsistent).

Eh...I'd be less bothered if I didn't want to keep a common set of reference for my players.[/rant]

My preferences run towards adventures I can plop down into an ongoing sandbox campaign or adventures with a strong memorable theme (like a drow fortress built inside of a giant living tree in a dark forest). I do really miss the utility of Dungeon Magazine (and still dip into old published copies, the online 4th ed+ incarnation not so much).

In pathfinder, there are not a lot of Darklands-type adventures. As far as paizo published, offhand only their Second Darkness AP touches elements that were a part of D&D since the old 1e adventure Descent into the Depths of the Earth. I'd love to see an AP that takes place entirely in the Darklands (though that would probably require starting off the PCs as escaped slaves to allow more 'surface' PC races), but a Darklands based adventure would be nice.

Since one of the titles of House Thrune is "Thrice Damned", I am wondering whether they might have used this trick and then found a way to sell their souls a third time.

I'm sure there is an abyssal themed 'damned' PRC... at least in 3.5...but I don't remember the name of it.

So I've been looking at PrCs. These two in particular:

Diabolist.

Souleater.

The Synergy is obvious: set up extra-planar caravan, take people's souls, sell them in Dis, Profit. The animal companion Imp gives you cred and some protection while in hell, while the familiar cacodeamon serves the important function of turning your enemies into money. But, each one requires selling your soul to some rather powerful Bad Guys. The only thing getting in the way of taking both PrCs is these contracts. Everything else is workable.

I know, I know, I could re-flavor, or do the same thing another way, but wouldn't it be so awesome to be able to say your title is "the Twice-Damned"??

So my question is: Is there any amount of shenanigans that can, per RAW, allow you to sell your soul twice?

I assume you aren't looking for metaphysics on soul selling in Golarion. I don't think there is an Ultimate Faust guide anyway on this particular topic of soul ownership.

By the rules, Damned is a Class Feature of both PRCs. You are not restricted from acquiring class features of the same type from two different sources (only vaguely on stacking the same benefit twice). So given the feature is not acquired by deliberate act (the character does not promise\sell their soul to a given party for set terms) and is instead damned by their activity (dealing with evil powers), the game mechanic effect remains the same and it is ultimately up to the GM to decide which evil power ultimately has the better claim on a soul.

If you look at the fluff text for the diabolist in particular...

"Though some tread the path of the diabolist to enslave the forces of Hell and turn them towards goals other than corruption, only the most stalwart of diabolists can resist the temptations of the Pit."

Would indicate no tit for tat relationship with an infernal power. On the souleater side, the fluff indicates that their patron receives a tithe of souls from the Souleater in return for granting power but not that they've promised their soul to their patron as part of the contract as well (that enslavement seems to be a side benefit for the patron though). Considering Souleaters must be Neutral Evil, it is likely the Souleater's Four Horseman patron will win out on a postmortem claim in any case over any infernal lien.

Is there a better route to follow?

Offhand, on accumulating fame and hitting the 35 points for the +3\+1 effective caster levels quickly and probably a little ahead of schedule I have a few suggestions.

The first is that you'll likely have to do the write-up for the guild yourself...there are a small handful of examples in Golarion lore so unless your GM's campaign matches up to one of the established examples either you or your GM will likely have to tailor something to fit. You might be able to finagle it that an existing organization like the Pathfinder Society or one of the secret organizations (like Palatine Eye) would also count as a Guild but you can’t depend on it. If you are the one doing the work, tailor the guild to fit whatever the campaign is going to be about and that you have some means of staying in touch throughout the game (this is where having a society that covers a large geographic area makes things easier). If based out of Osirion for example, make the Guild about collecting antiquities and lore. That way when you collect the occasional bit of fluff or piece of mundane artwork (or even junk dungeon dressing), you can turn it over to the guild for a periodic bump to fame. Not to mention if you keep at least an aspect of the Guild’s fluff related to something that you’ll be doing in the campaign it will be much easier to collect a point of fame just for completing an adventure (even if your Guild didn’t send you on that particular mission).

With the above in mind, keep an IC journal and turn it over to the Guild periodically. Keep it related to the focus of the Guild, but it should earn you a periodic point of Fame if you keep up on the homework (a few paragraphs should be enough). You can also do ‘blue booking’… referring to the blue composition books… if you are a reasonably entertaining writer to do ‘off board’ interactions (or stories) between your character and various guild members or related items. It doesn’t all have to be about killing monsters and taking their stuff (and your DM might appreciate that you are not a murder hobo). If you have access to the old Dragon Magazine monster ecology articles, those might be a useful template to squeeze a few more Fame points out of your DM.

If you have access to the Leadership feat in the campaign, use it to set up a chapterhouse or lodge for the Guild. It may be a little bit more expensive but Ultimate Campaign (iirc) has all the rules you need to handle that sort of downtime activity. Various pbp sites can help you keep track of everything (like rpol) and keep a common spot for you, your DM, and other interested parties to share as well. As a side note, as a rough rule of thumb, 1 Fame point seems to be worth about 4,000 gp.

Last suggestion I have for accumulating that 35 Fame is to do spell research and invent unique magic item formula. As what is most likely going to be an arcane focused guild, each unique discovery\formula should at least net you 1 point of Fame. Just a few suggestions on how climb the Fame ladder a bit faster.

Mystic theurge is the obvious choice so I won’t cover that ground. There is a definite dearth of dual caster progression PRCs (and not a lot of PRC or multiclassing love to start with) from Paizo. As far as what 3 levels to mix and match with a wizard… as a quick suggestion you could go exploiter wizard and grab Bloodline Development and then dip a level of Sorcerer. On top of that grab 2 levels of Alchemist for the Tumor Familiar Discovery (and most likely the Infusion Discovery via Extra Discovery feat) with Poisoners Gloves to improve your action economy. N. Jolly’s alchemists guide is a great resource.

The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.

Thanks for posting. What was Blessing of the Faithful?

The ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots is actually pretty huge, especially for domains that have many wizard only spells on it. With this archetype, you can finally be a cleric of fire that can cast fireball more than once per day (and have a second domain). This also lets you cherry pick useful spells that the cleric wouldn't normally have access to, as the situation changes. Maybe you know ahead of time that you'll need a teleport the next day, as a Desnan ecclesitheurge. No problem, just choose Travel as the secondary domain (if for some reason it wasn't your primary :)), and you can now teleport the party. It's spell-picking versatility that the cleric previously lacked. The Shadow Patron is widely seen as one of the best Witch Patrons, just because it opens up access to many evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard. Same principle, except you need a bit more foresight.

Which you can only put into your domain slot (so 1 spell per spell level). And while I allow pantheistic or philosophy clerics in my default setting Golarion game, many do not (including PFS if memory serves and JJ unless he's changed his mind...you must pick a deity). So that's a selection of 3 other domains to hunt through for non-cleric list spells and whatever replacements are in their subdomains. It's an middling tangible benefit but most parties have access to some sort of arcane spellcaster or a stock of scrolls\other magic items (and UMD if needed).

In return the cleric is giving up around 5 AC at lower levels (1-3), and probably double+ that at the mids and while AC is less important at higher levels it's still useful to block iterative attacks. This archetype isn't a battle cleric but even a wizard is generally walking around with +4 force armor at level 1 (vs +1 for a cleric with a defense spell) because there's usually more than enough kobolds to go around (or other mooks at higher levels).

The bonded holy symbol is also useful. It saves money, which is nice, but more importantly, it lets you pull out a trump card when needed. Remember, when a wizard starts out, they need to choose between one extra spell per day of something they potentially didn't prepare and an entire extra set of actions. And the Arcane Bond is still chosen pretty often! The primary use of it is to react to situations, and is often used for getting that perfect spell for out of combat usage. Both of those uses are where the Cleric spell list excels: reactionary and curative.

It's absolutely a more wizard-like cleric, focusing on the versatility aspects of the wizard that make him the go-to class for powergamers.

Reduced cost that's the same as picking Craft Wondrous Item...which is generally a decent feat pick for most campaigns anyway. The benefit of Craft Wondrous Item is the item isn't essentially destroyed when the PC dies. I like to run the APs for the timesavings (maps and mooks) even if I have to profoundly alter the plots, bbegs, and add critters to span out the encounters for my table of 6, but I have never run an AP where no one has died... save or die are not rare events in the baseline APs (and 1s happen). The cleric is feat starved (certainly moreso than wizard) but if a cleric wants to magic up his holy symbol it's much better insurance to do it through Craft Wondrous Item.

The spell on the fly is a benefit but cleric's spells tend to be more of the buffing variety rather than the 'flashier-encounter-ender' species found on arcane lists. They can already cast their healing (or injury) spells spontaneously. There are a few condition modifiers that are rarely used but absolutely vital when needed, but again Scribe Scroll fills the same role. Add to the fact clerics can leave open slots as well to assign later in the day....

To pay for this one it's a d6 off of channel at 3rd level when 2d6 vs 1d6 makes a difference. By itself the tradeoff is probably around equivalent (around 8d6 of healing\day vs 4d6 and 1 extra spell), but all things considered I'd suggest to my players other means if they were intent on sniping spells from other spell lists rather than just leave it to the arcane caster.

In any event, this archetype was one of the first ones that RavingDork created a character after getting the ACG, so it must be at least decent.

I'm sure RavingDork will hunt through the deity list and find one of the handful that grant domains that give him the additional spell selection he wants for his build. He probably has enough system mastery that the party he adventures with won't miss the secondary fighter role he traded out (and touch ranged spells as well probably became a bad option). It doesn't function as a role replacement for an arcane caster (fewer feats for one), alot of his domain granted powers are touch range, and in a classic party the cleric has gone to becoming another liability for the fighters to protect (in return for a limited list of spells to snipe from that the arcane caster already has access to).

Unless you're Dex based instead.

Weapon Finesse so there's a feat tax in that direction since you can't use Studied Strike ranged.

I'm still thinking the hang-up on Holmes, or any fictional stereotype for that matter, is the wrong touchstone to evaluate the class. Most players I think could build a Holmes out of a Ranger, Alchemist, Bard, Wizard or Rogue fairly easily, or a Batman out of a Ninja...it's just a rp template. The Investigator doesn't have to be a 'How to make Sherlock Holmes for Dummies' base class. The question that should be focused on for evaluating this class is 'what role is it supposed to play?'

He's a skill monkey. With a grab bag of abilities, especially if you are drawing from the Thief tricks. A few of those are situational, some very much so.

I'd agree, low levels (1st to 3rd), the Investigator is a bit behind the contribution curve when it comes to combat (y'know that thing that composes about 80 to 90% of the playtime for a lot of groups, and the number #1 solution to most problems in D&D;-). Clever players will have some ideas of how to contribute, but in large part it's going to be a light armored guy with probably about 3 first level short term self-buffs and not enough attribute points and cash\time to go around to focus on his skill monkey role and the combat stats. Fortunately, those first 3 levels go by pretty quickly...5 to 8 sessions maybe), but until then it'll take a focused player to find the In Character time to mix up alchemical equipment\poisons and come up with strategies that make him a bit more effective in combat consistently than a commoner for more than a few rounds a day.

I don't think it'll be an issue for mid-range levels. Most PCs should get some downtime at that point so they can do the crafting and other essential equipment picks beyond the incidental treasure pick-ups to have a role other than the 'trap-finder' duty and 'knowledge check guy' that has probably been their main function up to that point. I dabbled with a level 7 for a session and managed to contribute in combat using poisons, alchemical items, and other miscellaneous tricks. The sneak attack was a bit hard to deploy...putting points into acrobatics would have meant sacrificing skill points from knowledges and perception\disable device,

Granted on the other hand, a class that has too many features that really only come into play in out of combat situations risks falling into that 3.0 Bard pitfall (the 5th character). If the class is only good at finding clues and moving the plot forward... something that most DMs will force along anyway... is it a class that is really bringing something to the table and is it actually getting a feature?

The Investigator isn't Sherlock Holmes, Holmes was forensic science and reason not fantasy and magic. If anything he's Garrett from The Garrett Files. A film noir gritty detective in fantasy world... dirty fighting, alchemical tricks, and a grab bag or talents (poisonous or otherwise) fits.

Grue,

Well I just talked to him and he said the info has to be from one of the authors, do you happen to be one of them?
If not do you know how I can get in touch with one of them for a ruling?
Thanks
MDC

No.

It looks like Sean Reynolds has fielded a few question on Mythic Adventures but nothing specific on retraining and I haven't found if any of the writing team has put their 2 cp input on the boards. However James Jacobs (paizo's creative director) has mentioned it...

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=741?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#37026

Albatoonoe wrote:

What's your favorite monk weapon?

Would you allow retraining of mythic stuff?

What's your favorite "random chance, crazy things happen" item (like the rod of wonder)?

Sai.

Yes, but I've allowed retraining/rebuilding of PCs for decades, so that's not a big deal for me.

The rod of wonder!

The GM picked it for us as sort of a punishment and I asked him if I could ask the question here.

But I agree I always recommend people to ask their GM first before asking on boards as often there are house rules involved.
MDC

Thanks
Deanoth and Alexander Augunas foe the comments.
MDC

Looking at the retraining section again and then the mythic feat entry I would say both by RAW and RAI that if retraining is allowed in the game then you can retrain mythic feats.

Mythic feat description-

Only characters with mythic tiers or creatures with mythic ranks can take these feats. If a creature becomes non-mythic, it no longer gains the benefit of these feats, but it doesn’t lose them permanently. If the creature becomes mythic again, it regains the use of all the mythic feats it once had.

Many mythic feats enhance non-mythic feats with the same name. When a creature has a mythic version of a feat, that feat is denoted with a superscript “M” in the feat line of its stat block. Other superscript combinations refer to the books cited on page 7.

If it looks like a feat, acts like a feat, and quacks like a feat it is a feat (and thus not a special exception to retraining).

I am a bit curious what mythic feat was selected for you 'as a sort of punishment'. Was divine intervention involved or some sort of encompassing outside agency (besides DM fiat)?