paizo.com Recent Posts by GM 1990paizo.com Recent Posts by GM 19902020-07-21T02:40:30Z2020-07-21T02:40:30ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Have You Ever Condemed A Party Member To DeathGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvqv?Have-You-Ever-Condemed-A-Party-Member-To-Death#102016-09-03T16:18:20Z2016-09-03T16:18:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sundakan wrote:</div><blockquote><p> There's also no way you could have predicted Wild Empathy being used that way, since your GM either forgot how it worked, or was REALLY nice about allowing it to avoid a character death.</p>
<p>Wild Empathy only works on Animals or Magical Beasts, not Vermin. Crab are Vermin, so it wouldn't have worked at all.</p>
<p>And even if it did work, it works just as Diplomacy, which at a minimum takes 1 minute (10 rounds), and is generally unable to work against actively hostile creatures.</p>
<p>As far as you knew, the Ranger was screwed. He was saved by a well hidden Deus Ex Machina. </blockquote><p>Good points.
<p>Being a home-game we run more loose with the rules, and although I keep masterwork tools and the d20pfrsd open on the laptop we try to move combat along fast and avoid stopping to dig up specifics.</p>
<p>As Darksol stated, it was more about trying something out of the box at that point (vs just smash it again) and the nat-20. Cool for story, not by the book though.</p>Sundakan wrote:There's also no way you could have predicted Wild Empathy being used that way, since your GM either forgot how it worked, or was REALLY nice about allowing it to avoid a character death.
Wild Empathy only works on Animals or Magical Beasts, not Vermin. Crab are Vermin, so it wouldn't have worked at all.
And even if it did work, it works just as Diplomacy, which at a minimum takes 1 minute (10 rounds), and is generally unable to work against actively hostile creatures.
As far...GM 19902016-09-03T16:18:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Have You Ever Condemed A Party Member To DeathGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvqv?Have-You-Ever-Condemed-A-Party-Member-To-Death#92016-09-03T15:58:13Z2016-09-03T15:58:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Sometimes it's best to cut your losses while you're ahead (or in this case, not 6 feet under), even if it means permanently losing valuable resources.</p>
<p>It's important to not think of it as a matter of being heartless, it's about trying to not create more heartbreak than what is to be expected.
<br />
</blockquote><p>All valid points (some of it we did but I left out for a bit of brevity), but you hit the 2 big contributors. Low resources, and fickle dice. I'll add a 2 others, young GM; possibly mis-matched CR.
<p>Getting ourselves in to deep is a bit of playing style I think. I've never liked the idea of the 15min adventure day. I husband my spells like their hero-points so we can try to clear as much of the dungeon (this early part of the AP has a lot of dungeon crawling) as possible w/o having to stop or leave and go rest and wonder what (should, but often doesn't) happen while we're gone. This was definitely over extending - but we knew the worst spot in this level and weren't going there w/o resting. Classic "last room? sure one more"....bad call. I still wanted the party to rest right there, bar the doors and let the ranger's new friend protect us if we got attacked. But group call was head back to Sandpoint so we did.</p>
<p>The GM (my 12yr old son) didn't realize how bad the encounter was going until afterwards, when I showed him the math and probabilities. If it had been me I probably would have had the crab toss them both into the water after the 2d round...give them a chance to run. As it was, he was having it chase us up the corridor..I was worried we still weren't safe since it could bash the door. Thankfully a timely nat-20 solved it.</p>
<p>Lastly the CR may be off. Its listed as a CR5 encounter and we're APL4 (4 PCs at 4th plus ranger has a pet Firepelt Cougar...another timely nat-20 earlier in the AP). But the environment is stacked against PCs. Deep water, and only a short 5' wide ledge to fight from (no flanking, and very little standoff for ranged attackers).</p>
<p>The Crab was AC20 (CMD=23),51HP 2x claw at +10 BAB (1d4+6, Grab, Constrict), +14 CMB for grapple.</p>
<p>It only needed 6 or higher to gain grapple on 2PCs (and constrict); and after that with the +5 bonus only needed 2s or better on its grapple checks to do 14-20 (17avg) damage per round on 2 PCs. That's 2 or 3 rounds and 4th level PCs are unconscious, and still in grapple.</p>
<p>On our side, we needed 12s or better (14 or better once grappled) to hit AC20, 17s or better to escape a 23 CMD once grappled (Ninja could roll 13 on escape artist).</p>
<p>The math seems to indicate its an encounter where you are almost guaranteed at least 1 PC death with just average rolls on both sides. I could have used SM II for a water attacking creature (would have got flanking and added action economy), but even if I'd started casting immediately, that would have come on line too late at the damage rate the crab is putting out. <a href="http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=that+rabbit%27s+dynamite+monty+python&&view=detail&mid=535F1D8D6BE374261990535F1D8D6BE374261990&rvsmid=521C37471878BDBE364C521C37471878BDBE364C&fsscr=0&FORM=VDQVAP" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">We better not risk another frontal assault - that rabbit is dynamite</a></p>
<p>Really the whole thing was a good teaching point. As players we rarely think we can lose, its good sometimes to escape by your tooth-hair.</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:Sometimes it's best to cut your losses while you're ahead (or in this case, not 6 feet under), even if it means permanently losing valuable resources.
It's important to not think of it as a matter of being heartless, it's about trying to not create more heartbreak than what is to be expected.
All valid points (some of it we did but I left out for a bit of brevity), but you hit the 2 big contributors. Low resources, and fickle dice. I'll add a 2 others, young...GM 19902016-09-03T15:58:13ZForums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Have You Ever Condemed A Party Member To DeathGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvqv?Have-You-Ever-Condemed-A-Party-Member-To-Death#12016-09-03T05:37:28Z2016-09-03T05:37:28Z<p>Have you ever had to do this to save the party? Not a heroic Gandalf "run you fools" moment, but more like "we can't save that person, but can save ourselves - we have to leave them".</p>
<p>If you've played RoTRL you may be familiar with this encounter. Minor spoiler if you haven't from our game tonight.</p>
<p>After going through a door and down a small hallway, we entered a room with a sunken water filled area, and were immediately attacked by some kind of giant crab. Since we'd already been through a bit of meat-grinder, Paladin only had 1 LoH left, I had 1 Grease spell, Summon II, and my bonded item spell, the ninja was out of ki, and ranger was full hp. It won Ini, successfully grabbed and began constricting the paladin -and- ninja on its first round. Ranger attacked with bow, hit for small amount of damage; Ninja missed, I cast grease trying to get the paladin free, it made its save, paladin missed . It continued to constrict and rolled max on both. My GM brain started quickly realizing....this is going to be a TPK....based on damage it was auto-dealing, both ninja (1hp) and paladin(11hp) were going below 0 on its next round, and me (wizard) and ranger would quickly follow. So I yelled - try to escape - and run or we're all going to die. Ninja succeeded escape artist, landed in the water but GM allowed him to scramble over edge and get out of range with move action. (technically GM could have AoO'd him, but really would have just been murder at that point, our tails were between our legs). I cast grease with bonded item, successfully freeing the paladin who's ini was right after mine, and we ran up the hall preparing to bar the door when the ranger came though.</p>
<p>....this is when I realize, I forgot the grabbing death-crab was going before the ranger in order. As we're yelling to run, it grabs her, -crits-, doing something close to 30 damage and starts up the hall with her in one claw and the other just looking for someone else to grab. At which point, I slam the door and yell for everyone to lean against it. if we don't we're all dead - yes it sucks, but option b is worse, and this is not a fight we can win at this point I had more hp left than the whole group combined...and I'm the wizard. So 1 or 4 deaths...what's it going to be?</p>
<p>Out of character my wife (paladin), 8 year old (ninja), 10 year old (ranger), and 12 year old (GM) are all looking at me with this disbelief - you're really leaving her to die? Hey...it isn't real life here people. All the same, I was getting a little teary eyed - PC death still sucks, especially when you basically pulled the gallows lever on them.</p>
<p>...epilogue.</p>
<p>What I didn't know was about to happen when I made that call, is on her action she tried animal empathy to come the creature, rolled a nat-20, and GM decided that was enough for the crab to calm down having chased the rest of us from its lair, leaving her setting somewhere under 5hps, but alive. It didn't change the fact that we'd made a decision to leave her to death to save the rest of the group, but we were of course happy she was alive.</p>
<p>So - have you ever had to sacrifice a fellow PC w/o their full consent for the greater good?</p>Have you ever had to do this to save the party? Not a heroic Gandalf "run you fools" moment, but more like "we can't save that person, but can save ourselves - we have to leave them".
If you've played RoTRL you may be familiar with this encounter. Minor spoiler if you haven't from our game tonight.
After going through a door and down a small hallway, we entered a room with a sunken water filled area, and were immediately attacked by some kind of giant crab. Since we'd already been through a...GM 19902016-09-03T05:37:28ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: At what age and what game did you start pen an paper rpgs?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ttt2&page=4?At-what-age-and-what-game-did-you-start-pen#1972016-11-04T13:43:08Z2016-09-03T04:41:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zaister wrote:</div><blockquote> THAC0 is basically the same as BAB, only counting down instead of up. In AD&D AC started at 10 and went down from there, so old AC 0 is the same as new AC 20. If your THAC0 is x, it means you need to roll x to hit that AC. So, in modern parlance that means you need to roll x to hit AC 20, which means THAC0 x is the same as BAB (20-x). Simple as that. </blockquote><p>I remember as the 2E PHB and DMG came out trying to convince my group we should switch to THAC0 using a similarly simple explanation. It never took, which was crazy because our group religiously followed the Weapon vs Armor Type adjustments from the Unearthed Arcana which -really- messed with your To Hit rolls. It presumed an AC9 was shield, AC8 Leath+Shield, etc. So some weapons got some nice bonus vs some armor types, even heavier armor for some weapons like a pikes, pole-arms, and military picks.
<p>It probably didn't help that we'd been playing roughly 4yrs through college at that point, and didn't really even like much of the 2E things. We were already using UA, Wilderness and Dungeoneer Survival guides for non-weapon proficiencies and plenty of house-rules/classes, so there was less to be desired in changing at that point.</p>
<p>If it wasn't for THAC0 and the whole decending AC, I might not have even looked at PF to teach my kids, but I wanted something more simple. (not claiming PF in general is simple...lots of crunch, but the concepts are easier for us)</p>Zaister wrote:THAC0 is basically the same as BAB, only counting down instead of up. In AD&D AC started at 10 and went down from there, so old AC 0 is the same as new AC 20. If your THAC0 is x, it means you need to roll x to hit that AC. So, in modern parlance that means you need to roll x to hit AC 20, which means THAC0 x is the same as BAB (20-x). Simple as that.
I remember as the 2E PHB and DMG came out trying to convince my group we should switch to THAC0 using a similarly simple...GM 19902016-09-03T04:41:55ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: At what age and what game did you start pen an paper rpgs?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ttt2&page=4?At-what-age-and-what-game-did-you-start-pen#1962016-11-04T14:35:19Z2016-09-03T04:24:23Z<p>11yrs old and it was the '81 edition of the Red Box Basic D&D. Rules, a module, -and- set of dice with a crayon.</p>
<p>I remember seeing adverts for it in comics for a while and was just amazed at the concept of taking on one of the roles shown in the pictures. From the second I opened the box and holed up in my room going through Keep on the Border lands by myself I was hooked. Quickly convinced my parents to get the Expert Blue-box. Until my last move a couple years ago I still had the Isle of Dread module that came in the Expert box.
<br />
I didn't play a lot in HS just the one off pickup game now and then, as nobody else gamed, and that was during the "D&D is satanic" years.</p>
<p>Started AD&D in 89, my first year of college, and pretty much played weekly (or multiple times a week for the next 4 years, primarily as GM).
<br />
Long break:
<br />
Last year introduced my 12, 10, 8, and wife 47 to PF. The 5 and 7 year old don't get to "fully play" yet, but have jumped in and tossed some goblin attack dice from time to time.</p>11yrs old and it was the '81 edition of the Red Box Basic D&D. Rules, a module, -and- set of dice with a crayon.
I remember seeing adverts for it in comics for a while and was just amazed at the concept of taking on one of the roles shown in the pictures. From the second I opened the box and holed up in my room going through Keep on the Border lands by myself I was hooked. Quickly convinced my parents to get the Expert Blue-box. Until my last move a couple years ago I still had the Isle of...GM 19902016-09-03T04:24:23ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 5 Life Hacks For Your Roleplaying TableGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9ph?5-Life-Hacks-For-Your-Roleplaying-Table#402016-09-03T04:05:16Z2016-09-03T04:05:16Z<p>I wanted some basic dungeon tiles, and watched a few you-tubes on how to. I didn't want to go as crazy as most of them did (although really-good cardboard ones are not super hard).</p>
<p>My quick cheat.
<br />
Buy "stone-texture" spraypaint. Its available in major hobby and home repair stores.</p>
<p>Take any cardboard box, spraypaint as much of it as you want (priming first is optional, but I plan to on my next batch.</p>
<p>Using ruler and exacto/box-cutter cut the sizes you want. I did a bunch of 2"x4" figuring I can build out nearly any size room with those, plus a couple 2"x8" hallways; and lastly several 1"x X for smaller hallways/tunnels.</p>
<p>Lastly, gently mark out your 1" grids with sharpie - just dark enough to see it w/o being too over bearing.</p>
<p>I've found using these with our mini and pawns I like it better than my 2'x3' wet-erase grid since I never "hit the edge". As the PCs advance, I harvest tiles from behind them, and from time to time re-center by sliding the whole set of tiles back to the middle.</p>
<p>I've double-sided mine. Grey/black and Tan on the otherside.</p>
<p><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByuWzxCuPeQEdFJVcUdtOEpKd2lzRFdweW5YVmZhUk5neGdR/view?usp=sharing" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">How it looks</a></p>I wanted some basic dungeon tiles, and watched a few you-tubes on how to. I didn't want to go as crazy as most of them did (although really-good cardboard ones are not super hard).
My quick cheat.
Buy "stone-texture" spraypaint. Its available in major hobby and home repair stores.
Take any cardboard box, spraypaint as much of it as you want (priming first is optional, but I plan to on my next batch.
Using ruler and exacto/box-cutter cut the sizes you want. I did a bunch of 2"x4" figuring I...GM 19902016-09-03T04:05:16ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: 101 Spiders (Definitely dangerous)GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvoi?101-Spiders#62016-09-03T03:28:17Z2016-09-03T03:28:17Z<p>This is a spider encounter I built and tossed at my group a while back. Since this is home-brew, you can tinker away to make something fun and challenging.</p>
<p>Trap Door Spider
<br />
The spider has a sticky trap waiting at the bottom of its concealed pit.
<br />
(Use CR appropriate for your party, in my case I used the Ogre Spider stats; tweak the DCs as needed as well)</p>
<p>The Trap Setup:
<br />
15'x15'x15' camouflaged pit, with webbing throughout the bottom and sides, those who fall in (failing DC20 reflex save) are considered entangled and unable to move unless they make a DC17 STR check to rip the web free in that square. They could also use fire, but will take 1d6, and need to make a DC17 reflex save or the web -and- their own cloth materials catch fire doing another 1d6 per round until they spend a full-round putting it out, or dousing with water/using the create water cantrip, etc. On a successful STR check, they can move into the next webbed square, basically allows 5' of movement per move action if successful on the STR checks. Once a square has been ripped free, it is considered clear. However, the sides area also webbed, making climbing out nearly impossible. Of course fire could be used here, or toss a rope and set a Str DC for those on top. If you don't want fire to be the easy answer, do this encounter during the rain (or winter snow-fall as was the case in my game)</p>
<p>Monster Tactics:
<br />
The spider itself comes out of a crack (has Compression, and a ground based version of fly-by attack allowing it to use the rest of its movement after attacking). With the special attack, its able to pop-out, deliver a sting, and move back into the cave on its turn. The PCs can hold actions to take ranged or melee attacks when it appears. It'll first try to incapacitate anyone in the web, but once it reaches 50% or less HP it will come out one last time to attach a webline, and drag the PC into the crack while it has full cover. If the group can sever the webline, or knock the spider below 25% on that last exposure, it'll abandon the prey and stay hidden in the crack.</p>
<p>The PCs can still get XP for defeating it, and appropriate treasure in the bottom from previous victims. This is a good place to plant some kind of item (letter; strange statue; small chest with note from local noble and gold for services to regional giant clan)</p>
<p>This ended up being a lot of fun, only 1 PC (the main fighter) fell in, but eventually another PC had to jump in to help him, she ended up being drug into the cave, and crit-killed it with her dagger as she was on 1hp herself.</p>This is a spider encounter I built and tossed at my group a while back. Since this is home-brew, you can tinker away to make something fun and challenging.
Trap Door Spider
The spider has a sticky trap waiting at the bottom of its concealed pit.
(Use CR appropriate for your party, in my case I used the Ogre Spider stats; tweak the DCs as needed as well)
The Trap Setup:
15'x15'x15' camouflaged pit, with webbing throughout the bottom and sides, those who fall in (failing DC20 reflex save) are...GM 19902016-09-03T03:28:17ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 5 Life Hacks For Your Roleplaying TableGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9ph?5-Life-Hacks-For-Your-Roleplaying-Table#292016-09-02T03:06:12Z2016-09-02T03:06:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BigNorseWolf wrote:</div><blockquote> passive perception is not a thing <b> I use in my game </b>. </blockquote><p>minor grammatical disagreement, I offered another way you could have said it.
<p>But since when I GM I always assume my players are taking 10 on their perception, its useful for me to have on the back of the initiative trackers to know if they'd just notice something w/o telling me they were specifically investigating for such and such.</p>
<p>The nice thing about the index cards is they have enough room, any GM can put info that they personally find useful to keep close at hand on their side of the card. Passive perception, Saves, HPs, or the player name and PC name if you're running pickup games. Customizable for your GMing desires, and the battery never goes dead either.</p>BigNorseWolf wrote:passive perception is not a thing I use in my game .
minor grammatical disagreement, I offered another way you could have said it. But since when I GM I always assume my players are taking 10 on their perception, its useful for me to have on the back of the initiative trackers to know if they'd just notice something w/o telling me they were specifically investigating for such and such.
The nice thing about the index cards is they have enough room, any GM can put info...GM 19902016-09-02T03:06:12ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 5 Life Hacks For Your Roleplaying TableGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9ph?5-Life-Hacks-For-Your-Roleplaying-Table#282016-09-02T02:57:34Z2016-09-02T02:57:34Z<p>Table Hack #7: Tool box or tackle box greatly organize your key equipment. I'm using this one:
<br />
<a href="http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Click-N-Connect-Deep-Tool-Box-and-Organizer-STST19900/204728455" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Stanley Plastic Connectable Box and Oranizer</a></p>
<p>My CRB, Bestiary and GMG, multiple bags of dice; and small bag of legos for terrain/clutter fit inside the main box deep drawer and an insert; the top end compartments hold wet-erase markers, pencils, erasers, whiteout, and the initiative teepee folded index cards.</p>
<p>The bottom organizer which clips solidly underneath (you can actually add more of these underneath each other indefinitely) holds my PF Pawn set, and about 40 home-made dungeon tiles. The size of the compartments is changeable by adding/removing the provided dividers. </p>
<p>I considered putting my 200+ mini's in the bottom style bin, but found there was too much movement, so I've opted for the basic Plano fishing lure containers, with a thin layer of felt in bottom and home-cut cardboard dividers to make more individual or 2x mini sized areas. 5 of these fit perfectly in a small reusable grocery store bag. So other than my battle mat I can carry everything for a game in 2 hands.</p>
<p>Since 95% of my gaming is right on our kitchen table, the ability to quickly pack it up and put in the storage room makes my wife (and fellow gamer happy). So, I guess the real life-hack is by a tool box and make your wife happy.</p>Table Hack #7: Tool box or tackle box greatly organize your key equipment. I'm using this one:
Stanley Plastic Connectable Box and Oranizer
My CRB, Bestiary and GMG, multiple bags of dice; and small bag of legos for terrain/clutter fit inside the main box deep drawer and an insert; the top end compartments hold wet-erase markers, pencils, erasers, whiteout, and the initiative teepee folded index cards.
The bottom organizer which clips solidly underneath (you can actually add more of these...GM 19902016-09-02T02:57:34ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: 5 Life Hacks For Your Roleplaying TableGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9ph?5-Life-Hacks-For-Your-Roleplaying-Table#262016-09-02T02:35:21Z2016-09-02T02:35:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Roleplaying Table Hack #6:</b> One thing I've discovered years ago was that index cards with the characters' names on them, when doubled over and hung from the GM screen, make great initiative trackers. Not only can the GM see them (assuming you put the name on both sides), and thus better keep track of initiative order, the players can too! Changes in the initiative order is easily reflected by simply shuffling the cards around.</p>
<p>Cheap, easy, and really cuts down on the mistakes. </blockquote><p>On my side, I've also added the PC's :AC and Passive Perception.
<p>I have a couple marked NPC and a couple in red-highlight labeled Monster 1, 2 as well. Agree it is easy to see, quickly updated, and packs away in folder.</p>Ravingdork wrote:Roleplaying Table Hack #6: One thing I've discovered years ago was that index cards with the characters' names on them, when doubled over and hung from the GM screen, make great initiative trackers. Not only can the GM see them (assuming you put the name on both sides), and thus better keep track of initiative order, the players can too! Changes in the initiative order is easily reflected by simply shuffling the cards around.
Cheap, easy, and really cuts down on the
...GM 19902016-09-02T02:35:21ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: GM rolling skill checks.GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvcz&page=2?GM-rolling-skill-checks#602016-08-30T01:20:14Z2016-08-30T01:20:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ShinHakkaider wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Here's what I find curious about gamers though, especially players.
<br />
It's a role playing game. The PC is not the player. They are in essence playing a part. Part of that IS not having your character react to information that they dont have. GM's (at least half decent ones) do this ALL THE TIME.
<br />
</blockquote><p>For sure, but you've got to assess your players. Some individuals are more capable of doing it, which has as much to do with player style and maturity as GM style. A lot of GMing (and life for that matter) is learning to know the group dynamics and individuals you're dealing with. I'm GMing for my 8, 10, 12 year olds and my wife rounds out the group. They've all only been gaming about 15 months, really enjoy the RPing, exploration, and skill challenges aspects, 2-4 hour sessions every other week and we've gone up to 4 sessions with no combat. But I know with my 8 year old, as much as he doesn't want to....he can't help himself acting on player knowledge - and he's probably the most invested of the 4 in his PCs backstory and RPing. So its not even exclusive to more RP inclined.
</p>
When I'm playing in my 12 year old's campaign, I'd rather have him roll for those few things that make sense. I can role-play the outcome either way, but still find it more fun when I can literally just take the director's que and "action" the part; without having to suspend my knowledge of what's really about to happen.</p>ShinHakkaider wrote:Here's what I find curious about gamers though, especially players.
It's a role playing game. The PC is not the player. They are in essence playing a part. Part of that IS not having your character react to information that they dont have. GM's (at least half decent ones) do this ALL THE TIME.
For sure, but you've got to assess your players. Some individuals are more capable of doing it, which has as much to do with player style and maturity as GM style. A lot of GMing...GM 19902016-08-30T01:20:14ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: GM rolling skill checks.GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvcz&page=2?GM-rolling-skill-checks#582016-08-30T01:08:56Z2016-08-30T00:38:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ShinHakkaider wrote:</div><blockquote><p> So my thing is this, if I have players who aren't going to metagame exclusively to their own advantage? Then sure, let them roll everything, perception, disguise whatever. Because then I can TRUST them not to be dicks and use out of game knowledge to possibly get a leg up. </p>
<p>For example: Me calling for a Perception check automatically alerts the players that there is something to check for. Even if they all fail the roll, the players know there is something there and automatically have their characters start making adjustments to be aware of something in the room or that there is something in the room that can and needs to be found. </p>
<p>In the same sense that people call out railroady GM's as bad GM's?
<br />
I call these types of players Bad Players because they purposefully break immersion for a perceived advantage. </p>
<p>As a result, because I know everyone isnt perfect I use Passive Perception for certain things. I keep an index card with all of the PC's perception modifiers on it +10. Whenever they run into or pass something that normally would trigger a Perception check I consult the card. Those who have a number high enough to beat it get alerted. Those who don't? Don't. </p>
<p>If a player hears something in a description or realizes something because of the environment that their character is in and they call to make a Perception check? Then they roll. But if they walk into a room and the invisible assassin is standing still in the far corner of that room waiting to strike? There's no observable stimulus for them to react to. So their Passive perception comes into play.</p>
<p>If that Assassin strikes and remains invisible and the PC's call for Perception checks then, because they are aware of danger, there IS observable stimuli (that fist sized hole in the fighter's chest and armor...) then they get to roll. </p>
<p>I do sort of the same thing with disguise. Although Disguise is usually easier to adjudicate as they PC's usually have enough time to prepare and take 10 or 20. But in the cases where it's a rush job? In... </blockquote><p>As you point out, even if you have players who'll try not to meta, some of this is just impossible to keep separate in vs out of character. Its a little bit of a catch-22 for the players IMO. If I'm trying not to meta, then am I punishing myself and possibly others by not asking for another roll or taking safety precautions? But if I do take precaution after knowing we all rolled horrible on perception, am I meta-gaming (almost border line cheating?).
</p>
By GM rolling certain checks it's arguably more fair for the players so they're not stuck on the fence trying to decide to play stupid on purpose or feel like they're cheating.</p>ShinHakkaider wrote:So my thing is this, if I have players who aren't going to metagame exclusively to their own advantage? Then sure, let them roll everything, perception, disguise whatever. Because then I can TRUST them not to be dicks and use out of game knowledge to possibly get a leg up.
For example: Me calling for a Perception check automatically alerts the players that there is something to check for. Even if they all fail the roll, the players know there is something there and...GM 19902016-08-30T00:38:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: GM rolling skill checks.GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvcz&page=2?GM-rolling-skill-checks#572016-08-30T01:07:59Z2016-08-30T00:31:35Z<p>I only do a few, and typically tied to things where the player not knowing if they passed or failed has potential to be more fun for our group.
<br />
I have the PCs AC and passive perception #s on my headsup display, but don't keep track of anything else, so its not a lot of extra data for me.</p>
<p>Appraisal is an example that easily goes meta when players roll. First player rolls a low number (5 or less). Either I tell them they have no idea the value, or that its a fake, or worth 1000's of GP. In all 3 cases, someone else in the party is probably going to roll, often only because everyone at the table knows the original info given by me is bogus. If player 2 rolls high, they also know that data is right. On the flip side, if I roll behind the screen, ask for the PC's modifier, and then tell them its a fake. Someone else can also check it, and perhaps you end up with arguments about what it is worth. Later when they try to trade it there are RP opportunities and some one-upmanship in the group.</p>
<p>Trap finding. I don't use RAW, only rogues can find most traps in my game, and I don't allow "take-20" which presumes you fail many times. So the party rogue has 2 choices, take-10 or have me roll. In either case, "not finding any traps" is never a sure thing. It has added to the suspense and enjoyment for us, and not a few chuckles out of character when the trap-free chest/door/etc blew up in everyone's face. It's an inexact science after all, of course I also have to keep a straight poker face or its pointless. Trap finding is one where a high-roll is more of a meta-game problem. Lots of doors/chests aren't trapped, so rolling low doesn't really tell you anything obvious. However, rolling high, you have a pretty good certainty that no-trap means no trap, or you found it and proceed with disarm attempt.</p>
<p>So really not that common, as I ponder it. The question I've posed to the group is to consider from their personal stand point, "if I (or another player) rolls a 1 (or a 20) on a check, is it going to trigger me to roll for my PC or affect what I do in game?" If you think the answer is yes, then it might be one of those skill check moments that the GM to roll for you. In that regard, there are not really a lot of times it will add to the enjoyment of the game.</p>I only do a few, and typically tied to things where the player not knowing if they passed or failed has potential to be more fun for our group.
I have the PCs AC and passive perception #s on my headsup display, but don't keep track of anything else, so its not a lot of extra data for me.
Appraisal is an example that easily goes meta when players roll. First player rolls a low number (5 or less). Either I tell them they have no idea the value, or that its a fake, or worth 1000's of GP. In all...GM 19902016-08-30T00:31:35ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How do you write campaigns (and game sessions)?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tu9k?How-do-you-write-campaigns#292016-08-27T18:16:29Z2016-08-27T18:16:29Z<p>Campaign design:
<br />
I try to keep the story-arc in perspective of how many levels the group will gain as they culminate the plot. 4 or 5 levels for example - I use story development level-ups, not XP. What ever the basic concept is going to be I can then start with a final BBEG CR level in mind and work backwards. I don't always even know what the real finale will be, since it allows PC actions that often give me inspiration for what's "really" at the end of the plot. I also look back over my notes from prior sessions for inspiration on mini-arcs, or how I can bring-back an NPC or minor villain from time to time to just add depth to the world (things happen while the PCs are doing what ever they're doing).</p>
<p>The current campaign idea was a group of black-marketers, who'd also corrupted some of the town guard, and culmination was going to be around 5th level when the PCs figured out where their "front" HQs was and cracked down on it (with or without help from town-guard based on how the group progressed through the story). At session 1 I didn't know where the front business was, how deep the guard corruption went, or much about the leader. One key feature of the crime group was they always wore disguise when meeting with each other and when out on business - nobody could rat-out anyone else since they didn't know what anyone else actually looked like. Beyond that, I wanted freedom to play off the PCs decisions to flesh out the BBEG and the organization as we advanced the story. But I did make a basic outline of key encounters I thought would fit in to work towards that last encounter at the HQs, but very vague.
<br />
1. Encounter with shop owner who sent them on wild goose chase. "should" learn he owes money to the Black Arrow (does he run first - maybe a chase scene). Should level up to 2 around here.
<br />
2. Encounter with BA thug pressing shop owners for $ (where?; combat or social - based on player actions)
<br />
3. Encounter with BA leader. (social - invites group for dinner to offer them to join his outfit - everyone including himself is eating poisoned food, but he has antedote vial; assuming they say no, encounter like the opening scene from Temple of Doom <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0cTvZlxsyA" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> "the antidote for the poison you just drank Dr. Jones.." </a>. Level up to 3 after this encounter.
<br />
4. Encounter with BA's family in street (the pet monkey from #3 is spotted with a girl and women. social encounter/BBEG character development - the BBEG has a wife and kid?)
<br />
5. Encounter that indicate corrupt guards. (unplanned - improv when it feels right or insert around other encounters).
<br />
6. Multiple encounters that give them ideas of where the HQs may be. (play this by ear based on things the PCs decide to do in town. Insert as needed). Level up to 4 and 5.
<br />
7. Encounters with non-corrupt guards and leaders. (group will get some info about BA, but little is known. Establishes a reputation in town with good and bad guards; and locals)
<br />
8. Group attacks or assists non-corrupt guards in taking down the HQ. Needs to be level 5 before this.</p>
<p>Between those were often a few game sessions of other things such as some small side quests, or doing things the PCs wanted for character development such as a trip to 2 of the PCs hometown for Maplefest. Those PC driven side quests and several randomly rolled encounters (which I use to open other short side-quests or link to the main story arc) allow me to keep the group leveling up w/o always having to be focused on the main plot, and is time when the group and the Black Arrow aren't directly interacting. Those time-gaps gives the BBEG options to react to the PCs interference from prior sessions.</p>
<p>Session Prep.
<br />
we play about 4hours every other week, so I have quite a bit of time to think about what happened previously, and what I think the PCs will do next session. We do a lot of RPing so I know in 4 hours I probably need about 4 "encounters", which will be combo of RPing, combat, or exploration. Essentially its another mini-outline of the session which is vague enough to allow for PC free-will.</p>
<p>I typically only have a few bullet points about each of those encounters based on the most probably PC action will be. I only make a few bullet points....because as we've all learned things often go awry and I want the flexibility to roll with the players choices.</p>
<p>I will stat out any monster/environment effects and rehearse how they work so I am ready to run them and keep those either opened on my phone or laptop, but beyond that I </p>
<p>As an example of how a session went based on the campaign outline above.
<br />
4. Group encounters BBEG's family.
<br />
I'd decided it would take place in open market area, and I figured it would be a social encounter. I had a few notes about the wife's dialogue, planning for her to be the oblivious Mob-wife who's husband just runs an import business. The group might learn a little more about where they were from (foreigners on a diplomatic mission), but this was really just to add depth to the BBEG - he's not just a pure evil maniac, he has a family.</p>
<p>As the group was moving through the market area, I tell them they notice a familiar monkey they'd fought when meeting Zadicus (the BBEG) for supper (and being poisoned) several sessions earlier. The monkey was holding hands with a little girl at a fruit-merchant about 30feet away in the crowded market and the little girl was holding hands with a woman next to her. I was just getting ready to describe the girl picking up the monkey, when the groups cleric/bard interrupts and yells, "I run toward them pulling out my wand of magic missiles and attack the monkey." I reiterate, as you're pulling out your wand you see the monkey climbing into the little girls arms; there are lots of people around including several between you and the girl. "That's fine, I'm not worried since MM can't hit her or them, only my target, the monkey. So I'm rolling for damage." Ok.</p>
<p>I had seriously never even considered this possibility, and improv on my part ensued. Ultimately, the crowd yelled for town guard, protected the girl and her mom who were screaming, the bard was arrested (which allowed me to set up follow-on sessions implicating those guards as being on the BA payroll); the rogue stealthly followed the lady, girl, and injured monkey to their gated mansion flying the foreign country's flag over its gate (allowing me to still demonstrate the leader wasn't from the same country).</p>
<p>About this time in the campaign I could see the end of the first big arc getting close, and I started thinking about "what's the BBEG's -real-" motive. Not just money, what is he doing all this for, and if we continue this campaign - what's next? Since I hadn't decided before the campaign started, I had a lot of freedom. I decided, the BBEG was -really- the wife, the husband was dead and had been for a while, and she had been disguising herself as him when running the Black Arrow. Her motivation is to get her husband raised from the dead, and she's in a deal with some entity back in her home country to do it.
<br />
So now we're just starting that story arc, and I'm figuring the group will hit level 10 culminating with them facing the entity she is in league with.
<br />
Bullets for this arc.
<br />
0. At end of original story arc, group finds tunnels under the front-HQ to catacombs and some kind of smuggling/mining of bones.
<br />
1. Shipping bones back to the homeland. (why? an undead link?) will level to 6 culminating in catacombs where they're mining the graves for bones.
<br />
2. BBEG is acting out of love to get her husband back. (evil just willing to do more than good to get the same result; when does group learn its the wife?)
<br />
3. Group will be traveling across sea and exploring a new part of the campaign world. (Follow the bones; Where? and What for?) will level 7 when they get to the new country.
<br />
4. Investigating where bones are going; insight as to why; Black-Arrows origins in Vesnia. Levels 8-9th
<br />
5. BBEG is double-crossed by the evil entity (does she try to work with PCs?)
<br />
6. There will be some kind of show-down with a CR10-12 monster and their minions in that foreign land. (jungle/volcano; disrupt creation of undead army). Should be level 10 before final battle.</p>
<p>7. Start thinking about level 10-15 so if we want to keep playing this campaign there is linkage to bigger arc; the entity she's sending bones to in return for her husband's soul has much bigger plans; and was just using her to fuel those plans. Be looking for linkages and possibilities based on things the players say at the table.</p>
<p>Whew - got long, but maybe this helps lay out how you can go relatively open ended with checkpoints along the way to give the players enough guidance to be able to advance the story, while having a lot of agency to get to the end point.</p>Campaign design:
I try to keep the story-arc in perspective of how many levels the group will gain as they culminate the plot. 4 or 5 levels for example - I use story development level-ups, not XP. What ever the basic concept is going to be I can then start with a final BBEG CR level in mind and work backwards. I don't always even know what the real finale will be, since it allows PC actions that often give me inspiration for what's "really" at the end of the plot. I also look back over my...GM 19902016-08-27T18:16:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Do wee need to max our stats? It's a necessity or minmax idea?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr18&page=2?Do-wee-need-to-max-our-stats-Its-a-necessity#672016-06-30T22:13:48Z2016-06-30T22:13:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathmuse wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">cuatroespada wrote:</div><blockquote>oh right, i forgot the world was entirely populated by people with straight 10s... no fine.</blockquote><p>And those NPCs with straight 10s will say, "That barbarian saved our hides, but golly, he is dumber than a box of animal crackers."
<p>My wife likes characters with one or two weak stats on the grounds that flaws can be fun to roleplay. But when most PCs in the party drop every stat not necessary for their class features down to 8 or less, the character stats get repetitive: all fighters are dumb, all wizards are feeble, all bards lack common sense, etc.</p>
<p>Low stats can lead to roleplaying, but so can good stats, such as a fighter good at some skills because he is smart. </blockquote><p>I think the tendency to roleplay is more likely linked to player style, than stats. Strong/weak, smart/dumb - which ever end of the spectrum your stat's lay, acting that way in character is a player trait, not a PC stat/trait, the same as using an accent, or some kind of body-language or "tic" that you use at the table to define your character from your OOC questions/comments.
<p>Of these 12 gamer traits, some people are more likely to enjoy acting (or over acting). Although, I don't believe any one completely falls fully in any bucket, we all have our IRL "primary" tendency. </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Mathmuse wrote:cuatroespada wrote:oh right, i forgot the world was entirely populated by people with straight 10s... no fine.
And those NPCs with straight 10s will say, "That barbarian saved our hides, but golly, he is dumber than a box of animal crackers." My wife likes characters with one or two weak stats on the grounds that flaws can be fun to roleplay. But when most PCs in the party drop every stat not necessary for their class features down to 8 or less, the character stats get...GM 19902016-06-30T22:13:48ZRe: Forums: Forum Games: A Cuddle of Goblins (and Other Pathfinder Collective Nouns)GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sq7z&page=9?A-Cuddle-of-Goblins#4372016-06-30T21:05:04Z2016-06-30T21:05:04Z<p>A fever of plague doctors.</p>
<p>A _______ of skeletal T-rex.</p>A fever of plague doctors.
A _______ of skeletal T-rex.GM 19902016-06-30T21:05:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How often you guys play?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr5d?How-often-you-guys-play#422016-06-30T15:50:13Z2016-06-30T15:50:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jiggy wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
If I were only in one game, I'd probably go crazy too. But with multiples, I've actually heard of people having to drop out of games because they got into so many at once that they couldn't handle it all. So, PbP might be worth a second look. </blockquote><p>A few pod-casts recently discussed PbP. Player drop out rates were brought up as a possible concern.
<p>DMs Block
<br />
http://dungeonmasterblock.podbean.com/e/ep-80-play-by-post-gaming/</p>
<p>NPC Cast
<br />
https://npccast.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/play-by-post-rpgs/</p>Jiggy wrote:If I were only in one game, I'd probably go crazy too. But with multiples, I've actually heard of people having to drop out of games because they got into so many at once that they couldn't handle it all. So, PbP might be worth a second look.
A few pod-casts recently discussed PbP. Player drop out rates were brought up as a possible concern. DMs Block
http://dungeonmasterblock.podbean.com/e/ep-80-play-by-post-gaming/
NPC Cast...GM 19902016-06-30T15:50:13ZRe: Forums: Forum Games: A Cuddle of Goblins (and Other Pathfinder Collective Nouns)GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sq7z&page=9?A-Cuddle-of-Goblins#4352016-06-30T15:43:35Z2016-06-30T15:43:35Z<p>A boltload of Blue Dragons.</p>
<p>A _____ of ochre jellies.</p>A boltload of Blue Dragons.
A _____ of ochre jellies.GM 19902016-06-30T15:43:35ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2252016-06-29T21:48:48Z2016-06-29T21:48:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Michael MacComb wrote:</div><blockquote><p> For most of my games recently, I've been running them at 10 point buy. My players understand that they are a little weaker then they should be, but this way I can run the adventure path for all 6 of them without really changing the monsters too much.</p>
<p>Overall, it's been really good. They made it all the way to the end of book 4 of Iron Gods, before allowing the whole of the last dungeon to congregate in the same room and mass spell them to death. (4 rounds in the wizard goes "huh, maybe I should have used wall of force to stop all 14 of them from being able to just stand back and throw acid arrows at us")</p>
<p>After re-rolling, they made it all the way to the end of book 2 of Carrion Crown, but only had 1 melee guy and did the last fight the hardest way possible. (If you have read the book you should know what I mean) and only lost because the melee guy rolled a 3, 4, 3, and 2 on 2d6 for damage, and the bad guy had 3 hp left.</p>
<p>They also feel that they've learned more about how the system actually works in the last year of gaming with me, then they have in the last 5 years of playing pathfinder with a DM that gave them 30 point buy and let them walk over all the fights.</p>
<p>10 Point buy is hard, 15 point buy is normal, and anything above that for a 4 person party is easy mode for the current adventure paths. </p>
<p></blockquote><p>This makes me want to do a 3d6 x 7 (toss lowest) and see how things work out for an AP. basically an "11" avg, lower than 10pt, but I prefer rolling, and by tossing the low its unlikely you'd be stuck with more than 1 below 10 stat.Michael MacComb wrote:For most of my games recently, I've been running them at 10 point buy. My players understand that they are a little weaker then they should be, but this way I can run the adventure path for all 6 of them without really changing the monsters too much.
Overall, it's been really good. They made it all the way to the end of book 4 of Iron Gods, before allowing the whole of the last dungeon to congregate in the same room and mass spell them to death. (4 rounds in the wizard...GM 19902016-06-29T21:48:48ZRe: Forums: Forum Games: A Cuddle of Goblins (and Other Pathfinder Collective Nouns)GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sq7z&page=9?A-Cuddle-of-Goblins#4302016-06-29T21:20:38Z2016-06-29T21:20:38Z<p>A coil of stringy demodands.</p>
<p>A__________ of Flaming Skulls.</p>A coil of stringy demodands.
A__________ of Flaming Skulls.GM 19902016-06-29T21:20:38ZRe: Forums: Off-Topic Discussions: Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here!GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=1260?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#629572016-06-30T04:35:50Z2016-06-29T20:54:15Z<p>Thank You James and Paizo Staff for making my family's "game night" something memorable every week!</p>
<p>I introduced my wife and 5 children (12-also GMs, 10, 8; and the 6 and 5 year old watching/rolling goblin attack dice) to PF a little over a year ago. We game weekly, alternating between my home-brew and my son running RotRL. I can say for our family, it is the most enjoyable indoor time we spend together every week. The rest of the week, the kids talk about their PCs, PCs they want to run, and the 10 and 8 are creating story ideas they want to GM when they're older. I'm amazed how well they RP between funny, very serious and how just like adults....they never do what I thought the PCs would do. I'm sure they'll be lifelong gamers.</p>
<p>Question:</p>
<p>Have you gamed with children? What was your impression?</p>Thank You James and Paizo Staff for making my family's "game night" something memorable every week!
I introduced my wife and 5 children (12-also GMs, 10, 8; and the 6 and 5 year old watching/rolling goblin attack dice) to PF a little over a year ago. We game weekly, alternating between my home-brew and my son running RotRL. I can say for our family, it is the most enjoyable indoor time we spend together every week. The rest of the week, the kids talk about their PCs, PCs they want to run,...GM 19902016-06-29T20:54:15ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Choo Choo - The Fine Art of RailroadingGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2to59&page=3?Choo-Choo-The-Fine-Art-of-Railroading#1212016-06-29T16:34:46Z2016-06-29T16:34:46Z<p>DM's Block pod-cast two weeks ago is -excellent- regarding plot hook, and discussing how linear story lines have gotten a bad rap and sometimes are presumed to be "railroads". What are the differences? Why do books, movies, and video games successfully use linear story arcs?</p>
<p>Also good discussion about player agency and the difference between:
<br />
a. I try to smash the door down with my war-hammer <rolls nat-20>. GM: Nothing happens <because I planned for you to open it via the hidden switch, which also stops the trap from going off and never thought you would just smash the door open></p>
<p>b. I try to smash the door down with my war-hammer <rolls nat-20>. GM: You shatter the wood, Roll a reflex save, as a metal blade comes slashing out from the ceiling.</p>
<p>Podbean link (also available on iTunes):
<br />
http://dungeonmasterblock.podbean.com/e/ep-81-creation-inspiration-v-plot-i s-not-a-dirty-word/
<br />
<a href="http://dungeonmasterblock.podbean.com/e/ep-81-creation-inspiration-v-plot-is-not-a-dirty-word/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Plot is not a dirty word</a></p>DM's Block pod-cast two weeks ago is -excellent- regarding plot hook, and discussing how linear story lines have gotten a bad rap and sometimes are presumed to be "railroads". What are the differences? Why do books, movies, and video games successfully use linear story arcs?
Also good discussion about player agency and the difference between:
a. I try to smash the door down with my war-hammer . GM: Nothing happens
b. I try to smash the door down with my war-hammer . GM: You shatter the...GM 19902016-06-29T16:34:46ZRe: Forums: Advice: How does my cleric survive a gunslinger?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr54&page=3?How-does-my-cleric-survive-a-gunslinger#1042016-06-29T13:29:17Z2016-06-29T13:29:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">GM 1990 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> It sounds like you're holding yourself to a double standard and its creating problems for you. You want this encounter to be more difficult than its going to play out based on your experience with your group.
</p>
You're willing to change some enemies -
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> I was planning on making the lord of the fort an unchained rogue already, but had forgotten that I could do it to his smuggler minions as well. Will definitely be doing that.</blockquote><p>and maybe some traps (it wasn't clear to me if this was part of the AP as written)
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> EDIT: I intend to have a teleport trap spell in place, which will put the PCs in the fort's cells</blockquote><p>but holding yourself hostage to the clerics book stats because -
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> I pride myself in running modules as written, unlike other GMs who change so much at times that people begin to wonder why they invested in the module in the first place.</blockquote>You're making yourself do cheetah flips trying to make the cleric live a couple rounds longer, when AC (perhaps combined with the 30%miss for wind-wall) and HPs are the easiest way to do that and its more transparent to the PCs than some of the other suggestions, which may come across as GMetagaming. That's not to say a few of the other ideas won't make the encounter more fun for the PCs, but where are you violating your personal goal doing some changes but not allowing yourself to change the base-stats of one piece of the module? </blockquote><p>I likely will keep it relatively simple. So far I like the following:
</p>
- Upgrade the enemies to unchained rogues where appropriate (I allowed it for the party; wouldn't make sense not to do it to the bad guys too).
<br />
- Use <i>control weather</i> to defeat the cloud spells (conveniently in the module already; not really a change).
<br />
- Have a few smugglers and/or cultists disguise themselves as prisoners to be rescued.
<br />
- Have <i>fickle winds</i> and other assorted buffs in place at the start of battle; most will be generic,... </blockquote><p>I'm sure you're groups going to enjoy the challenge. It sounds like this one particular PC's abilities are making it hard to create challenges, hopefully they're good natured enough to realize you're going to have to pull out some stops as they near the culmination of the AP.Ravingdork wrote:GM 1990 wrote:It sounds like you're holding yourself to a double standard and its creating problems for you. You want this encounter to be more difficult than its going to play out based on your experience with your group.
You're willing to change some enemies -
Ravingdork wrote: I was planning on making the lord of the fort an unchained rogue already, but had forgotten that I could do it to his smuggler minions as well. Will definitely be doing that.
and maybe some traps...GM 19902016-06-29T13:29:17ZRe: Forums: Advice: How does my cleric survive a gunslinger?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr54&page=2?How-does-my-cleric-survive-a-gunslinger#832016-06-28T21:00:36Z2016-06-28T21:00:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">CWheezy wrote:</div><blockquote> Hi, he said he doesn't want to change stuff, probably fir thematic purposes, plz dont harangue him for it and instead offer useful suggestions. </blockquote><p>Wasn't intending to give him a hard time, it looked like a contradiction in solutions vs self-imposed limits. Its easy to be so close to the problem sometimes that you don't see things that are right there.
<p>When we're wargaming solutions in my job, we'll sometimes establish certain left and right limits on philosophical basis. If I'm brainstorming and offer solutions that seem to violate the limits I wanted or constraining the realm of possible solutions too tightly with the limits, I'd rather have someone on my team point that out and assess if either the limit wasn't what I intended, or if I was offering solutions that I didn't notice violated what I had intend the limit to do.</p>
<p>Its tough to do that over the net - I apologize if it came off the wrong way.</p>CWheezy wrote:Hi, he said he doesn't want to change stuff, probably fir thematic purposes, plz dont harangue him for it and instead offer useful suggestions.
Wasn't intending to give him a hard time, it looked like a contradiction in solutions vs self-imposed limits. Its easy to be so close to the problem sometimes that you don't see things that are right there. When we're wargaming solutions in my job, we'll sometimes establish certain left and right limits on philosophical basis. If I'm...GM 19902016-06-28T21:00:36ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How often you guys play?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr5d?How-often-you-guys-play#202016-06-28T20:35:20Z2016-06-28T20:35:20Z<p>Playing 2 campaigns in our house (me, wife, 12, 10, and 8yr old). I run a homebrew, and my 12 year old is running us through RotRL.</p>
<p>Typical week:
<br />
•2-3hr session Friday night
<br />
2-3hr session on Sat or Sun.</p>
<p>• - "sometimes" if we miss a weekend like last weekend when me and the oldest boy's were camping; well try to toss in a 2hr session on a weeknight if school is out. Like tonight!!!</p>Playing 2 campaigns in our house (me, wife, 12, 10, and 8yr old). I run a homebrew, and my 12 year old is running us through RotRL.
Typical week:
*2-3hr session Friday night
2-3hr session on Sat or Sun.
* - "sometimes" if we miss a weekend like last weekend when me and the oldest boy's were camping; well try to toss in a 2hr session on a weeknight if school is out. Like tonight!!!GM 19902016-06-28T20:35:20ZRe: Forums: Advice: How does my cleric survive a gunslinger?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr54&page=2?How-does-my-cleric-survive-a-gunslinger#812016-06-28T20:27:37Z2016-06-28T20:27:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Melkiador wrote:</div><blockquote> I like to assume that any high level boss character has had the time and resources to use the retraining rules to increase his hp. </blockquote><p>Yes, minion's as well. adding 2hp/HD may be enough for them to last 1 more hit (perhaps meaning 1 more round). Either way, that particular target in the battle took another hit, which would have been done to the -next- one in line and thus gave the bag-guys a little more damage output themselves which may have require the PCs to use a potion or cast a spell after combat.
</p>
You've whittled down the resources w/o making that particular encounter a possible TPK.</p>Melkiador wrote:I like to assume that any high level boss character has had the time and resources to use the retraining rules to increase his hp.
Yes, minion's as well. adding 2hp/HD may be enough for them to last 1 more hit (perhaps meaning 1 more round). Either way, that particular target in the battle took another hit, which would have been done to the -next- one in line and thus gave the bag-guys a little more damage output themselves which may have require the PCs to use a potion or...GM 19902016-06-28T20:27:37ZRe: Forums: Advice: How does my cleric survive a gunslinger?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr54&page=2?How-does-my-cleric-survive-a-gunslinger#792016-06-30T23:06:24Z2016-06-28T20:15:09Z<p>It sounds like you're holding yourself to a double standard and its creating problems for you. You want this encounter to be more difficult than its going to play out based on your experience with your group.
<br />
You're willing to change some enemies -
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> I was planning on making the lord of the fort an unchained rogue already, but had forgotten that I could do it to his smuggler minions as well. Will definitely be doing that.</blockquote><p>and maybe some traps (it wasn't clear to me if this was part of the AP as written)
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> EDIT: I intend to have a teleport trap spell in place, which will put the PCs in the fort's cells</blockquote><p>but holding yourself hostage to the clerics book stats because -
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> I pride myself in running modules as written, unlike other GMs who change so much at times that people begin to wonder why they invested in the module in the first place.</blockquote><p>You're making yourself do cheetah flips trying to make the cleric live a couple rounds longer, when AC (perhaps combined with the 30%miss for wind-wall) and HPs are the easiest way to do that and its more transparent to the PCs than some of the other suggestions, which may come across as GMetagaming. That's not to say a few of the other ideas won't make the encounter more fun for the PCs, but where are you violating your personal goal doing some changes but not allowing yourself to change the base-stats of one piece of the module?It sounds like you're holding yourself to a double standard and its creating problems for you. You want this encounter to be more difficult than its going to play out based on your experience with your group.
You're willing to change some enemies -
Ravingdork wrote:I was planning on making the lord of the fort an unchained rogue already, but had forgotten that I could do it to his smuggler minions as well. Will definitely be doing that.
and maybe some traps (it wasn't clear to me if this was...GM 19902016-06-28T20:15:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Played pathfinder for the first time Friday night...GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqhm?Played-pathfinder-for-the-first-time-Friday#92016-06-28T04:15:37Z2016-06-27T21:42:10Z<p>Awesome for you!!</p>
<p>I love GMing and did it exclusively through college, and then running a game for my kids starting last year. When my 12 year old wanted to start a game I was more than willing to be a player. I think I like GMing more than playing, but as you point out being able to just sit down with my dice and not have to think about how I'm going to react to what ever hair-brained thing the party does is such a relief on his week (we alternate each week).</p>
<p>I let the kids and my wife pick their class first and then picked up the missing role as well, I figure I get to run the whole world when I GM, I can play support role in my son's campaign.</p>Awesome for you!!
I love GMing and did it exclusively through college, and then running a game for my kids starting last year. When my 12 year old wanted to start a game I was more than willing to be a player. I think I like GMing more than playing, but as you point out being able to just sit down with my dice and not have to think about how I'm going to react to what ever hair-brained thing the party does is such a relief on his week (we alternate each week).
I let the kids and my wife...GM 19902016-06-27T21:42:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: I rolled a 1 for starting gold...GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr3k?I-rolled-a-1-for-starting-gold#42016-06-27T19:29:38Z2016-06-27T19:29:38Z<p>You could also sell this for 5 GP, and go loin cloth until you get some gold.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD Starting Wealth wrote:</div><blockquote>In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.</blockquote><p>Joking...but if you're really that cash-strapped maybe its worth considering.
<p>As pointed out club and sling, 0 cost for wpn. This is really just a problem until after your first encounter or 2, then you should be fine.</p>You could also sell this for 5 GP, and go loin cloth until you get some gold.
PRD Starting Wealth wrote:In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Joking...but if you're really that cash-strapped maybe its worth considering. As pointed out club and sling, 0 cost for wpn. This is really just a problem until after your first encounter or 2, then you should be fine.GM 19902016-06-27T19:29:38ZRe: Forums: Advice: How do you deal with conserving your spell power?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqon?How-do-you-deal-with-conserving-your-spell-power#342016-06-27T16:50:38Z2016-06-27T16:50:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Orfamay Quest wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">GM 1990 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.</p>
<p>Edit: here it is
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD Summon Monster wrote:</div><blockquote> If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.</blockquote></blockquote>Yes, that's right. But vanilla druids use <i>summon nature's ally</i> instead which doesn't allow templates. </blockquote><p>That's interesting. I played druid to 4th level in our last campaign, and now wizard in our new one.
<p>When I first looked up SMI, and noticed the Cele/Fiend template....I actually just assumed I'd been overlooking it on SNAI (which I don't think I ever cast, but had glanced at a few times).</p>Orfamay Quest wrote:GM 1990 wrote:The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.
Edit: here it is
PRD Summon Monster wrote: If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.
Yes, that's...GM 19902016-06-27T16:50:38ZRe: Forums: Off-Topic Discussions: Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here!GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=1258?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#628892016-06-27T16:39:10Z2016-06-27T16:39:10Z<p>Do you prefer point buy or rolling (if so what method):</p>
<p>1. In games you're a player?</p>
<p>2. In games you're the GM?</p>
<p>Any reason why the preference?</p>Do you prefer point buy or rolling (if so what method):
1. In games you're a player?
2. In games you're the GM?
Any reason why the preference?GM 19902016-06-27T16:39:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: How do you deal with conserving your spell power?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqon?How-do-you-deal-with-conserving-your-spell-power#322016-06-27T16:30:17Z2016-06-27T16:30:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Paradozen wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.
</p>
</blockquote><p>But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...
</p>
</blockquote><p>I mostly agree. However, I had a druid that thoroughly enjoyed summoning a bunch of celestial big cats to pounce on things.
<p>Side note: Did you know a group of cats is called a Clowder? It became a running joke and the other team mates would make angry cat sound effects on my turn. The comic value alone made this build worth it. </blockquote>I have a feeling we'll be fighting Evil things soon enough, so I'm curious as to how you're able to summon Celestial creatures, even though Druids, AFAIK, can't summon creatures with Celestial or Fiendish templates because they require a Neutral alignment (on either axis). </blockquote><p>The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.
<p>Edit: here it is
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD Summon Monster wrote:</div><blockquote> If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.</blockquote><p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:Tiny Coffee Golem wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Paradozen wrote:Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.
But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special...GM 19902016-06-27T16:30:17ZRe: Forums: Advice: How do you deal with conserving your spell power?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqon?How-do-you-deal-with-conserving-your-spell-power#312016-06-27T16:28:26Z2016-06-27T16:28:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Devilkiller wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>@UnArcaneElection - I was mostly being sarcastic though I’ve actually seen players who border on that headfirst into the blender style of play. You're pretty much going to have to heal at some point if you want to survive though, and if the DM has banned Cure wands there's a good chance you'll need to blow some spell slots on healing (sounds like a cruel move by the DM though there's usually some "story" reason for stuff like that - just because it is part of the story doesn't mean it couldn't be an irritating story to play through though...) </blockquote><p>And given that the OP said they're playing a "tourney style" module, that lends itself a little bit more to at least discussing as a group if you want to make this "old-school" and allow people to add a new PC if they die.
<p>For a one-shot type game (not one session, but just one adventure as a group of PCs), a group might decide to blow through like that and if you die you die, and the next possible chance the party stumbles on some poor sap who's unconscious but stabilized. It doesn't matter how they got there...its a different style of game at that point.</p>
<p>I'm running an Alch1/Wizard+ in RotRL, we're just hitting 4th level and I'm trying to do it the way the OP and Orfamay describe. Holding my best stuff for fights where there is an obvious "boss" in the enemy ranks. Straight group of goblins - I've tossed 1 bomb to get that nice splash+INT damage on the grouping, and then used either acid orb to finish off one or two, or my long-spear. What I'm loving about 2hd reach weapon is I threaten, so I can help with flanking, while staying out of immediate risk to self; and still cast (removing 1 hand on my turn).
<br />
I've been trying to hold my Bonded item cast as my "reserve", and in recent session I was actually OOC stressed because we had a "dire need" early in the game-day. I -hated- burning that before lunch, knowing we had a few encounters in front of us, but it was the best reasonable way to do what we needed. For any class, if you can get real OOC feelings about in-game things - it is part of what I love so much about RPGs.</p>Devilkiller wrote:@UnArcaneElection - I was mostly being sarcastic though I’ve actually seen players who border on that headfirst into the blender style of play. You're pretty much going to have to heal at some point if you want to survive though, and if the DM has banned Cure wands there's a good chance you'll need to blow some spell slots on healing (sounds like a cruel move by the DM though there's usually some "story" reason for stuff like that - just because it is part of the story...GM 19902016-06-27T16:28:26ZRe: Forums: Advice: GM: how to deal with Critical Builds, and Restful groups?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqz6?GM-how-to-deal-with-Critical-Builds-and#142016-06-27T14:17:08Z2016-06-27T14:17:08Z<p>Everyone's offered lots of good advice up thread, so I'll hit a little different take, and ask you to consider what type of dungeons you're designing (if you're running AP's this may still apply as you aren't bound to the text there).</p>
<p>You said its ok during outdoors (I assume wilderness/urban), and the concept of "the world moves on while you're on 23hr/day lock-down) is the way to instill urgency.</p>
<p>"Big" dungeons are an animal of a different kind. Just for simplistic sake, I'm going to define "big" as anything which can't realistically be completed on 1 set of resources. I say 1 set, not 1 day because resources aren't always "per day" and at different levels it changes Resources include hit-points, consumables(potions/wands), and spells. At lower levels, this could even include food and while resting keeps you in the dungeon, leaving it to re-stock provisions can be a reality in a mega-dungeon at lower levels. The point is a big dungeon can't be completed in 1 set of resources, and therefore you should expect the party to rest/refit at some point - you need to think about what that culminating point is while designing it, and give them places to rest. No different than an outdoor adventure, you design encounters and mini-arcs with ideas in mind of how far they can push or what they can do on 1 set of resources (call it a day worth if its easier - it normally will be 1 day and tied to spell lists).</p>
<p>When you're designing the dungeon you can make it bigger or small than 1 set of party resources if you want, but design the encounters with that in mind. If you designed the whole dungeon with a CR that you figured could be completed in 1 set of resources and the party decides to rest after 1/2 of the dungeon, then don't feel guilty about boosting the next half. Maybe your group is different, but I wouldn't find much enjoyment in bootstomping the encounters and having no challenge. Maybe they keep expecting you to modify the subsequent encounters but you don't so the resting turns out to be excessive. Alternatively, if you build it in "sections" designed around 1 set of resources, then you should try to leave clues or some kind of hint that they have reached the point where you expected them to rest.</p>
<p>There are some good articles out there and youtube's as well on philosophy of dungeon crawls. Two things that often come up are 1. Why the intelligent denizens don't react when hero's enter the dungeon; 2. How the various monsters lived in unison. If you're using intelligent monsters, then you can easily have them harass and attack the party constantly, preventing them from resting, or flee while the party rests. If you're dealing with a pretty empty unintelligent dungeon with things like oozes, slimes, traps, then resting w/o being harassed may be ok, but you then also should amp-up the later encounters to match the party's resource load. Larger dungeons have always been a problem for me unless they're pretty empty and or filled with undead - but earlier editions of D&D looked at the dungeon differently than we often do now, exploring it and fighting what was in it, was the adventure, and suspending belief about why the orcs hadn't been eaten by the otyugh, or how a dragon actually got 3 levels down in a 50x50 room wasn't an issue - but that was part of that style of play and social contract at the table.</p>
<p>Last note of caution, even if you do discuss this with your players, it won't be a solved problem. If you design a "mutli-rest" dungeon, then the party decides to drive on, finding themselves against something you designed with "full-resources" in mind, and they're depleted, you could have a TPK. You as GM should always be assessing the situation, and if the group rests too early, adjust the next encounter upward, if the group drives on too deep either drop some hints about what they may be walking into, or consider reducing the difficulty. </p>
<p>I personally like more 1-shot style dungeons which can be gone through on 1 set of resources. The alternative that works and "feels" like a dungeon is some kind of under-dark style adventure. Then its subterranean but runs like a wilderness/urban adventure.</p>Everyone's offered lots of good advice up thread, so I'll hit a little different take, and ask you to consider what type of dungeons you're designing (if you're running AP's this may still apply as you aren't bound to the text there).
You said its ok during outdoors (I assume wilderness/urban), and the concept of "the world moves on while you're on 23hr/day lock-down) is the way to instill urgency.
"Big" dungeons are an animal of a different kind. Just for simplistic sake, I'm going to...GM 19902016-06-27T14:17:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Fighters are the source of like every problem in PathfinderGM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tpsm&page=5?Fighters-are-the-source-of-like-every-problem#2362016-06-26T16:57:01Z2016-06-26T16:57:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Milo v3 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Atarlost wrote:</div><blockquote>Nobody ever takes favored enemy for animals or constructs.</blockquote>That may be true in your game, but it is not true in everyones. For example, in my games the most common favoured enemies have been animal, construct, and dragon. </blockquote><p>+1
<p>Because hopefully...the GM and player discuss what "might" be good options so you don't blow a major class feature on something that the GM isn't going to use in encounters. So they're a function of the story, not the system.</p>Milo v3 wrote:Atarlost wrote:Nobody ever takes favored enemy for animals or constructs.
That may be true in your game, but it is not true in everyones. For example, in my games the most common favoured enemies have been animal, construct, and dragon. +1 Because hopefully...the GM and player discuss what "might" be good options so you don't blow a major class feature on something that the GM isn't going to use in encounters. So they're a function of the story, not the system.GM 19902016-06-26T16:57:01ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: When do player stats become broken?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqot&page=2?When-do-player-stats-become-broken#742016-06-24T20:00:59Z2016-06-24T20:00:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wolfsnap wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Charon's Little Helper wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wolfsnap wrote:</div><blockquote> 3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though. </blockquote>Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system. </blockquote><p>It's Call of Cthulhu. If you're not losing an investigator every other session, your keeper is being way too lenient. :)
<p>Still, I take your meaning. </blockquote><p>Same avatar...I got a little walked in a circle wondering why Charon was chasing his own tail.Wolfsnap wrote:Charon's Little Helper wrote: Wolfsnap wrote: 3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though.
Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system. It's Call of Cthulhu. If you're not losing an investigator every other session, your keeper is being way too...GM 19902016-06-24T20:00:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2172016-06-26T03:57:44Z2016-06-24T18:30:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tangent101 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>What makes a magic item special is story. But D&D and Pathfinder ignored that story. Magic is "cheap" even when it's expensive. People sell off old magical equipment and buy new stuff like they're trading in their car.</p>
<p>No one should trade in a +1 sword because it's vendor trash, or have a dozen magical weapons they collected over time and then sell them all to get a somewhat more powerful item. That diminishes them all.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I just implemented ABP for this very reason. I'm going back to more of my 1E style of magic. Unique items, some things for out of combat, and materials required. I looked at the UChained, but want to keep it a little simpler than that.
</p>
Last session a PC got the first component for magically enhancing his sword (an old NPC friend of the party gave him a box that when opened gave off "smoke" like it was filled with dry ice. Inside he found a white-dragon fang and small vial of blood). Once he pays a very skilled blacksmith with a knack for working with magical substances, he'll be able to add 1d6 cold damage. Rather than just buying, they'll need to find (or will find in loot). But mainly using ABP I don't have to force-feed the magic items onto the sheets just to keep up with the math mechanics.</p>Tangent101 wrote:What makes a magic item special is story. But D&D and Pathfinder ignored that story. Magic is "cheap" even when it's expensive. People sell off old magical equipment and buy new stuff like they're trading in their car.
No one should trade in a +1 sword because it's vendor trash, or have a dozen magical weapons they collected over time and then sell them all to get a somewhat more powerful item. That diminishes them all.
I just implemented ABP for this very reason. I'm going...GM 19902016-06-24T18:30:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: When do player stats become broken?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqot&page=2?When-do-player-stats-become-broken#682016-06-24T17:56:18Z2016-06-24T15:45:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thorin001 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The roll in order method is much like Warhammer FRP where you roll you starting class too. If you want to play a wizard this campaign but rolled a 7 for Int I guess it just sucks to be you. Why not roll for alignment too? Maybe gender? Why not race too> Since the dice are making all of your decisions instead of you, this is just another form of roll-play instead of the role-play that you claim it is advocating.</p>
<p>Fair? How exactly is it fair when one person rolls awesome and another rolls like crap? The one with good rolls is going to dominate and the one with crap rolls is going to struggle to be adequate. Sounds like at most one of those people is going to be having fun. That is not any definition of fair for any game I want to play.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>While its not a game style you'd want to play, there are groups who enjoy PF w/o as much focus on everyone's stats, or picking the class you want first, and then designing the stats to fit.
<p>Some people still like going in with a blank slate and figuring out the character while they're rolling. You don't pick up the dice planning to be anything, you figure that out as the numbers begin taking shape. What are the numbers telling you about this PC? That's role-playing in my book.</p>
<p>And there are also player types who don't really care about mediocre stats, or being the best at anything, the casual gamer is just there enjoying time with friends. While PF is very mechanics bias, it's unlikely you'll produce an "unplayable" PC even using 3d6 in order. Even if every stat is under 10, there are player types who aren't going to look at that and toss in their dice, even while the player across the table is musing over where they're going to put their dump-stat 12.</p>
<p>I don't think either method is particularly more inclined to RP or not RP, they're both methods of stat production. I like rolling, but I blame that on my rewards center and dopamine (same reason I liked jumping out of airplanes I guess - you want to talk fair...think about jumping a parachute packed by someone you've never met)</p>thorin001 wrote:The roll in order method is much like Warhammer FRP where you roll you starting class too. If you want to play a wizard this campaign but rolled a 7 for Int I guess it just sucks to be you. Why not roll for alignment too? Maybe gender? Why not race too> Since the dice are making all of your decisions instead of you, this is just another form of roll-play instead of the role-play that you claim it is advocating.
Fair? How exactly is it fair when one person rolls awesome and...GM 19902016-06-24T15:45:00ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: When do player stats become broken?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqot&page=2?When-do-player-stats-become-broken#672016-06-24T19:44:57Z2016-06-24T15:29:53Z<p>It depends on how you and your group define "fair", and if relatively equal stats is that important to your group.</p>
<p>1. Everyone uses the same method = fair.
<br />
2. Everyone gets the same relative outcome = fair.
<br />
3. Everyone risks being the lowest roller for a better outcome than their peers = fair.</p>
<p>The difference is point-buy gets 1 and 2, and never 3; while rolling gets 1 and 3, and a chance for 2. </p>
<p>And thus enters player psychology and our brain's reward centers and who is more inclined to want to stimulate those compared to others. Is it more "enticing" to you to have a known outcome even though you know its cap'd and you will all get the same relative result; or to risk an even lower outcome for the chance to roll higher?</p>
<p>Its the casino model. Casino's are a thing because the house -ALWAYS- wins more than it loses - meaning gamblers -always- lose more than they win. Your safe "game" in a casino is putting 20's in the change-maker and hearing 100 quarters pile into the tray. You will never see someone doing that (except on an episode of "Mr Obvious"). But people will toss money in slots all day "hoping" to win more than they bet, even at risk of losing.....and they know over 50% always lose.</p>
<p>In a gaming context, one big difference is some players will still feel great about coming out with lower stats, and will enjoy playing up some flaws associated with them. Although, there are 2 kind of people who leave a casino happy -1. Winners, 2. Someone who saw it as a form of paid entertainment and didn't expect to win.</p>It depends on how you and your group define "fair", and if relatively equal stats is that important to your group.
1. Everyone uses the same method = fair.
2. Everyone gets the same relative outcome = fair.
3. Everyone risks being the lowest roller for a better outcome than their peers = fair.
The difference is point-buy gets 1 and 2, and never 3; while rolling gets 1 and 3, and a chance for 2.
And thus enters player psychology and our brain's reward centers and who is more inclined to...GM 19902016-06-24T15:29:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2102016-06-28T05:44:59Z2016-06-24T15:12:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">GM 1990 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Actually, Tangent, I'm going through feats and prerequisites right now and the "13 score limit" isn't true anymore (though there was a time when it was true). There are now feats requiring you to push STR, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA (maybe CON? I don't think there are many, if so) to various potentially rather large heights (minimum 13, for the start of different trees, though; some up to 25, though I think those are rare). </p>
<p>It was eye opening, for me. </p>
<p>To do several "kinda neat" things in combat, I require higher stats I several scores as my minimum than I do in a single score to enact godlike feats of reality alteration and otherworldly creation. </p>
<p>Because of this, I'm contemplating one of two different rules, if it comes up in games: purely martial characters get higher point buys than their counterparts (with a magical "break" event may happen of someone becomes a full caster); or fighters reduce ability requirements by an amount equal to 1 plus half their level. </p>
<p>I don't want my players to qualify to do things only because they've got a shiny belt on that they can't ever, ever take off, or else. </blockquote><p>Just shared this on another thread - but:
<p>Putting it in perspective, it would be like having Crafting Feats require min 13 WIS (and some 15, and some 17), and MetaMagic requiring 13 CHA(and some 15, and some 17), and any Focus Spell require 13 INT(and some 15, and some 17). A caster could still be good at their type of spell magic - which is their main thing but if they wanted to do other things that are typically referred to as "Caster Feats", they'd need to put at least a 13 in a stat which they really don't normally invest in. Each caster would have to boost 3 stats to get access to all the things casters can do, or be forced to pick and chose.</p>
<p></blockquote>Exactly! That's exactly what I mean! It's kind of overwhelming. </blockquote><p>I think I just accidently found my next house-rule.Tacticslion wrote:GM 1990 wrote: Tacticslion wrote:Actually, Tangent, I'm going through feats and prerequisites right now and the "13 score limit" isn't true anymore (though there was a time when it was true). There are now feats requiring you to push STR, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA (maybe CON? I don't think there are many, if so) to various potentially rather large heights (minimum 13, for the start of different trees, though; some up to 25, though I think those are rare).
It was eye opening,...GM 19902016-06-24T15:12:38ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2082016-06-24T14:59:20Z2016-06-24T14:58:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">captain yesterday wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Yes well, it's a good thing I'm given an hour to reflect.</p>
<p>I was wrong to say that. </blockquote><p>faster than some of us. I know there are a few out there I wish I could go delete right now. I guess I never considered asking Liz if she'd demo a few for me. Kind of like a voluntary amnesty delete box program :-)captain yesterday wrote:Yes well, it's a good thing I'm given an hour to reflect.
I was wrong to say that.
faster than some of us. I know there are a few out there I wish I could go delete right now. I guess I never considered asking Liz if she'd demo a few for me. Kind of like a voluntary amnesty delete box program :-)GM 19902016-06-24T14:58:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2072016-06-25T00:37:56Z2016-06-24T14:56:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tacticslion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Actually, Tangent, I'm going through feats and prerequisites right now and the "13 score limit" isn't true anymore (though there was a time when it was true). There are now feats requiring you to push STR, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA (maybe CON? I don't think there are many, if so) to various potentially rather large heights (minimum 13, for the start of different trees, though; some up to 25, though I think those are rare). </p>
<p>It was eye opening, for me. </p>
<p>To do several "kinda neat" things in combat, I require higher stats I several scores as my minimum than I do in a single score to enact godlike feats of reality alteration and otherworldly creation. </p>
<p>Because of this, I'm contemplating one of two different rules, if it comes up in games: purely martial characters get higher point buys than their counterparts (with a magical "break" event may happen of someone becomes a full caster); or fighters reduce ability requirements by an amount equal to 1 plus half their level. </p>
<p>I don't want my players to qualify to do things only because they've got a shiny belt on that they can't ever, ever take off, or else. </blockquote><p>Just shared this on another thread - but:
<p>Putting it in perspective, it would be like having Crafting Feats require min 13 WIS (and some 15, and some 17), and MetaMagic requiring 13 CHA(and some 15, and some 17), and any Focus Spell require 13 INT(and some 15, and some 17). A caster could still be good at their type of spell magic - which is their main thing but if they wanted to do other things that are typically referred to as "Caster Feats", they'd need to put at least a 13 in a stat which they really don't normally invest in. Each caster would have to boost 3 stats to get access to all the things casters can do, or be forced to pick and chose.</p>Tacticslion wrote:Actually, Tangent, I'm going through feats and prerequisites right now and the "13 score limit" isn't true anymore (though there was a time when it was true). There are now feats requiring you to push STR, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA (maybe CON? I don't think there are many, if so) to various potentially rather large heights (minimum 13, for the start of different trees, though; some up to 25, though I think those are rare).
It was eye opening, for me.
To do several "kinda...GM 19902016-06-24T14:56:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Why do so many people say APs are 'meant' to be played at 15 point buy?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq8k&page=5?Why-do-so-many-people-say-APs-are-meant-to-be#2062016-06-24T14:56:23Z2016-06-24T14:54:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">captain yesterday wrote:</div><blockquote> Oh come on! I deleted that! I went too far, I admit it, my apologies. </blockquote><p>...not before some of us saw it ;-)captain yesterday wrote:Oh come on! I deleted that! I went too far, I admit it, my apologies.
...not before some of us saw it ;-)GM 19902016-06-24T14:54:43ZRe: Forums: Advice: How do you build a Fighter nowadays?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqk0&page=2?How-do-you-build-a-Fighter-nowadays#762016-06-24T14:50:32Z2016-06-24T14:50:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wolfsnap wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Straight fighters are easy to build and easy to play.</p>
<p>With the number of feats you get, you can usually afford to have one primary combat style and then have a secondary combat style that you're less good at. Finally, even outside of those two styles, you're still going to be decent in combat no matter what. Or, you can hyper-specialize and become an absolute beast at your preferred style.</p>
<p>Fighters aren't MAD, so you can have decent scores for non combat roles: Int for more skills, Cha for more socializing.</p>
<p>I love a good Fighter. :) </blockquote><p>I like them too. I can imagine a few people have already choked on their coffee and are furiously blasting the keys about your assertion of not being MAD - because some think they are.
<p>However, if you're melee focused build, your key attribute is STR and in that regard I tend to agree with you.</p>
<p>Some will argue fighter is forced to put points in CON. But its no different for any other class. More HP = always better, but there is no minimum for a class, and with Fort being a good save and d10 fighter has more leeway than many classes. </p>
<p>Others will argue Dex, because you need the boost to reflex and AC. Fighter's best AC boost is going to be from armor and shields, a dex bonus is just gravy, although its nice with AT that they can add it unlike other classes in some armor. More AoO's with Combat Reflexes is nice, but not required either. But better AC = always better for every class.</p>
<p>Where fighter kind of gets forced to spread thin do "Fighter things" is that Int and Dex pre-req's for many feats...even though they're "Combat Feats - often referred to as Fighter's bonus feats." (Really - did someone put that in the book after the Ranger bonus feats were set just to twist the short-sword a little?)</p>
<p>Putting it in perspective, it would be like having Crafting Feats require min 13 WIS (and some 15, and some 17), and MetaMagic requiring 13 CHA(and some 15, and some 17), and any Focus Spell require 13 INT(and some 15, and some 17). A caster could still be good at their type of spell magic - which is their main thing but if they wanted to do other things that are typically referred to as "Caster Feats", they'd need to put at least a 13 in a stat which they really don't normally invest in. Each caster would have to boost 3 stats to get access to all the things casters can do, or be forced to pick and chose.</p>Wolfsnap wrote:Straight fighters are easy to build and easy to play.
With the number of feats you get, you can usually afford to have one primary combat style and then have a secondary combat style that you're less good at. Finally, even outside of those two styles, you're still going to be decent in combat no matter what. Or, you can hyper-specialize and become an absolute beast at your preferred style.
Fighters aren't MAD, so you can have decent scores for non combat roles: Int for more...GM 19902016-06-24T14:50:32ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Unchained.... Part 1) The Fighter...GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqfu&page=2?Unchained-Part-1-The-Fighter#542016-06-24T14:27:41Z2016-06-24T14:27:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Harleequin wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The logic behind having to declare is 2 part:</p>
<p>1) Thematic - this kind of attack is quite different from the usual hack and slash, it is specifically geared towards disrupting magic users. If you declare to use it, you have to use it! It makes sense.</p>
<p>2) To help avoid metagaming - by having to declare it and having it not combine with crit means that people wont just have it 'ON' all the time, because until 15th level you cant crit and disrupt in the same hit. So the damage is normal + disruption effect. If people walk around with it on all the time.... yes when they hit a magic user it will have a disruption effect but if they hit a martial, they will only be able to score normal damage as they cant combine it with a crit and the disruptor effect wont do anything as theyre a pure martial. At 15th level, its effectively 'ON' all the time, but this is fine as casters are lobbing out 8th level spells by then!</p>
<p>Do you see what I mean?</p>
<p>I tried to balance things by introducing a DEX pre-req (thematic I thought as well) but also that the disruptor effect can be used on just a regular hit. As someone said.... if you confirm a crit on a caster, there going to be almost dead anyway! Cuts down on the dice rolling a bit and makes the ability much more worthwhile to take.... especially considering its a feat chain. </blockquote><p>Ah - I missed that part about no crits, would have made perfect sense on first read.
<p>Is it allowed with ranged attacks too?</p>
<p>Did you consider making it require a single attack as a full-round action (similar to stunning fist)?</p>Harleequin wrote:The logic behind having to declare is 2 part:
1) Thematic - this kind of attack is quite different from the usual hack and slash, it is specifically geared towards disrupting magic users. If you declare to use it, you have to use it! It makes sense.
2) To help avoid metagaming - by having to declare it and having it not combine with crit means that people wont just have it 'ON' all the time, because until 15th level you cant crit and disrupt in the same hit. So the damage...GM 19902016-06-24T14:27:41ZRe: Forums: 3.5/d20/OGL: Arcane Magic: Why isn't it more prominent?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqvk?Arcane-Magic-Why-isnt-it-more-prominent#92016-06-24T14:18:32Z2016-06-24T14:18:32Z<p>A possible reason could be that just like going to college IRL, unless you are very self-driven, and know someone who can get you access to the books, you're not going to be able to learn some things even if you have the IQ potential.</p>
<p>Also, because arcane does have potential to be dangerous, the books, even the basic tomes explaining how to harness 1st level spells, could be closely guarded and protected by both governments, as well as caster's themselves for their own self-preservation.</p>
<p>Lastly, many with 10 or 11Int may very well look at magic and think "why bother". If it takes a couple years or months of study, and you have to pay for it, just so you can create water, light, or create your own useful level 1 powered spell to help on the farm, your time and $ may be better spent learning a trade or actually running your farm. As an example, real-world slight of hand/card magic is really not to technical - a friend of mine had me competent in several mind-blowing card tricks in about a week. however, other than amusing my children, wife, and some friends its not something I could justify putting the time and resources into so I could get near his level (a performing stage magician). Its cool...but doesn't put food on the table, and in many fantasy settings (and IRL) life is just about keeping the roof on and belly full for a large chunk of the populace.</p>A possible reason could be that just like going to college IRL, unless you are very self-driven, and know someone who can get you access to the books, you're not going to be able to learn some things even if you have the IQ potential.
Also, because arcane does have potential to be dangerous, the books, even the basic tomes explaining how to harness 1st level spells, could be closely guarded and protected by both governments, as well as caster's themselves for their own self-preservation.
...GM 19902016-06-24T14:18:32ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Unchained.... Part 1) The Fighter...GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqfu&page=2?Unchained-Part-1-The-Fighter#522016-06-24T13:25:18Z2016-06-24T13:25:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Harleequin wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Have rejigged bits.... the final version! Have hopefully got round the metagaming problem.</p>
<p>I think it strikes a good balance towards making the fighter more appropriate but also not giving away too many freebies.</p>
<p><b>Effortless Assault</b></p>
<p><i>Fighters due to their years of training and battle become fluid, instinctive creatures of war. Movement and attack become inseparable. At 4th level the fighter may move 10 feet as well as launch a full attack; this distance increases by 5 feet every 3 levels after. This total amount cannot exceed the fighter's natural move distance.</i> </p>
<p><b>COMBAT FEATS</b></p>
<p><b>Disruptor (minor) </b></p>
<p><i>You have carefully observed the practices of magic users and understand how best to wound them and cause pain, in order to hinder their concentration. </i> </p>
<p>Prerequisites: Fighter class, BAB +5, weapon training, Dexterity 10</p>
<p>Benefit: If you hit a creature with levels in a magic using class or one that uses SLA, you force them to make a concentration check each time they wish to cast a spell or use a SLA. The duration for the effect is equivalent to the fighter’s strength modifier. The DC is equivalent to 15 + fighters strength modifier + spell level. The intent to use this ability must be declared before an attack roll is made, and cannot be combined with any critical hit scored.</p>
<p><b>Disruptor (lesser) </b></p>
<p><i>Such is the ferocity and unerring precision of your attacks, you can cause a magic user to lose connection with spells currently in effect. </i></p>
<p>Prerequisites: Fighter class, BAB + 7, Dexterity 12, Disruptor (minor)</p>
<p>Benefit: If you hit a creature with levels in a magic using class or one that uses SLA, existing spells or SLA in operation from the caster are immediately subject to the equivalent casting of dispel magic. Each spell is addressed separately; the fighter uses his class level instead of caster level and applies a bonus matching that of his dexterity modifier. The intent to use this ability must be declared before an attack roll is... </blockquote><p>Couple questions I'd ask if taking the disruptors.
<p>1. Do I still do normal damage or crit damage?
<br />
2. It says I have to declare before striking. Is there some kind of penalty/per day use involved? If there is no penalty, etc, then just assume I'm always using this when I strike?</p>
<p>I like the mobility one, and have mod'd mobility in our house fighter as well.</p>Harleequin wrote:Have rejigged bits.... the final version! Have hopefully got round the metagaming problem.
I think it strikes a good balance towards making the fighter more appropriate but also not giving away too many freebies.
Effortless Assault
Fighters due to their years of training and battle become fluid, instinctive creatures of war. Movement and attack become inseparable. At 4th level the fighter may move 10 feet as well as launch a full attack; this distance increases by 5 feet...GM 19902016-06-24T13:25:18ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Can dire wolves charge and trip?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqtx?Can-dire-wolves-charge-and-trip#52016-06-23T21:57:39Z2016-06-23T21:57:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jeraa wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p> This can get really nasty if there is a pack of them, since normally standing up from the prone provokes AoO (at +4 due to you being prone when you provoke).</p>
<p>What I'm not totally sure about is if -during that AoO- bite, if successful, does the wolf get its free action trip as well. Since it gets the trip as free action on a successful bite, it would seem to indicate it does have a good chance of just continuing to keep you mauled on the ground and you might be better off attacking back from the prone until help arrives than getting into that "gnawing circle of death".</blockquote><p>Doesn't matter if it gets the free trip or not. As an AoO occurs before the action that triggered it, the target is still prone and tripping them again would do nothing. After the AoO, the target would then finish his action and stand up (as nothing prevents him from doing so).
<p>You can't keep someone down this way. </blockquote><p>Good point - hence the +4 bonus on the AoO when they're "trying to stand". That makes sense.
<p>The deadly part about a couple of them on you is you may end up taking your 1 attack once you stood up (having been bitten on their attack, and bitten again on their AoO), then end up prone again on their attack sequence. So it can still turn you into a chew-toy fast if you and your buddies don't hand out some beat-down, which is tough to do if you're only getting 1 attack/round and eating those AoO's.</p>Jeraa wrote:Quote:This can get really nasty if there is a pack of them, since normally standing up from the prone provokes AoO (at +4 due to you being prone when you provoke).
What I'm not totally sure about is if -during that AoO- bite, if successful, does the wolf get its free action trip as well. Since it gets the trip as free action on a successful bite, it would seem to indicate it does have a good chance of just continuing to keep you mauled on the ground and you might be better off...GM 19902016-06-23T21:57:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Do Martials Get Boring?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqfm&page=2?Do-Martials-Get-Boring#812016-06-23T23:35:49Z2016-06-23T21:48:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">HyperMissingno wrote:</div><blockquote> Meh, by level 10 death really just costs a bunch of gold and a week of recovery to get rid of the negative levels. It's levels 1-6 where death is an actual issue. </blockquote><p>Not in every game, but wanting to make death, magic rarity and other things different than the CRB model only works if its enjoyable to your group.
<p>No small amount of the debates here on the forum are result of all of us experiencing the game through our own groups and then expressing ourselves with our own bias. We could all play a tape of a recent session, then ask 7 people (<a href="http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/robinslaws.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">one from each of Robin's 7 types of players)</a> to describe what they saw, and if it looked fun...and if you just read those 7 write-ups not knowing they all watched the same video you could think they were talking about different games.</p>
<p>Whether its C/MD; boring/non-boring; home-brew/AP; PFS/online/family game; etc, the people are what makes your experience unique and affect it at least as much as the written rules.</p>HyperMissingno wrote:Meh, by level 10 death really just costs a bunch of gold and a week of recovery to get rid of the negative levels. It's levels 1-6 where death is an actual issue.
Not in every game, but wanting to make death, magic rarity and other things different than the CRB model only works if its enjoyable to your group. No small amount of the debates here on the forum are result of all of us experiencing the game through our own groups and then expressing ourselves with our own...GM 19902016-06-23T21:48:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Can dire wolves charge and trip?GM 1990https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqtx?Can-dire-wolves-charge-and-trip#22016-06-23T20:06:37Z2016-06-23T20:06:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cinderfoot Bristlebeard wrote:</div><blockquote> I know trip takes the place of an attack dire wolves normally have + 7 to hit but to do a trip it is +8 CMB. Do they get plus to to CMB to trip when charging? How is a charging trip played out? Thanks! </blockquote><p>The "plus trip" means it gets to use the universal monster ability "trip" when it makes a successful bite attack (which would include biting at the end of a charge).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD Universal Monster Rules wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a <b>free action</b> without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.</p>
<p>Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.</blockquote><p>So it actually doesn't take the place of, its in addition to. When it makes a successful bite, immediately roll a trip attempt using its +8 CMB. If it beats the opponents CMD the opponent is prone.
<p>This can get really nasty if there is a pack of them, since normally standing up from the prone provokes AoO (at +4 due to you being prone when you provoke).</p>
<p>What I'm not totally sure about is if -during that AoO- bite, if successful, does the wolf get its free action trip as well. Since it gets the trip as free action on a successful bite, it would seem to indicate it does have a good chance of just continuing to keep you mauled on the ground and you might be better off attacking back from the prone until help arrives than getting into that "gnawing circle of death".</p>Cinderfoot Bristlebeard wrote:I know trip takes the place of an attack dire wolves normally have + 7 to hit but to do a trip it is +8 CMB. Do they get plus to to CMB to trip when charging? How is a charging trip played out? Thanks!
The "plus trip" means it gets to use the universal monster ability "trip" when it makes a successful bite attack (which would include biting at the end of a charge). PRD Universal Monster Rules wrote:Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to...GM 19902016-06-23T20:06:37Z