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Magicdealer wrote:
*sigh* Couldn't we just append the entry to, "Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows with the exception of weapon proficiency." and be done with it?

I was just after writing out a long argument in response to graystone, and then I saw this, laughed and deleted it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
So one of the the things about "all this other stuff doesn't work with the hornbow" is that maybe that's fine? In a game where the difference between a 80' and 110' range increment isn't likely to come up much, for a character who can get hornbow proficiency fairly painlessly (a half-orc or half-elf, perhaps a character whose parents were a half-orc and a half-elf?) there should be some reason that a longbow is a competitive choice other than deadeye bowman.

Seems like a fair approach.

As far as I can tell, if you're a half-orc, planning to use a bow, you take a Hornbow. There doesn't seem to be a trade off in my interpretation.

EDIT: Had to fix a your/you're.


The logic is fairly simple.

Proficiency is not an effect upon a weapon.

It is an effect upon the knowledge of the use of a weapon.

On this I think we are agreed.

An effect that applies to the use of a weapon, is not the same as an effect on the knowledge of the use of the weapon.

So proficiency in longbow and shortbow, and thus the knowledge of their use does not translate into automatic knowledge of use of a Hornbow. (Addressing the OP's original question)

But, if you do have knowledge of the use of a Hornbow. You can use it in substitute of a Longbow or Shortbow, for effects that can be applied to either, but not one on its own.

I don't see any reasonable determination that it must only apply strictly to the effects upon the weapon itself, and not upon effects of which the longbow and shortbow are made use of in.

EDIT: Yes, my miss on the Empty Quiver Style. I was however just concentrating on Stabbing Shot on its own as an example.


DamD wrote:
As for what Moreland was saying. My read was this. If you are not using anything on your PC which effects the use of longbows and shortbows, ignore this piece of text.
Anything that ONLY affects the bows and not the player: stabbing shot affects your ability with an arrow and has NO effect on the bow itself; hence, not something the wording of hornbow works with. If stabbing shot works, so too would proficiencies.

I am entirely unsure of where you are getting that it only applies to the bow from.

Stabbing Shot specifics you are attacking with your "bow" but your "Rapid Shot" is substituted.

"When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows)"

Here we have an effect, that applies to "both longbows and shortbows" because if you are using neither, you dont get to stab someone with an arrow.

So by extension, no you cannot stab someone with your bullet or bolt.

And since this an effect that applies to "both longbows and shortbows" Or as PossibleCabbage said, and which Moreland agreed with. "A Bow, but not a Crossbow"

"Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows."
We get to use a Hornbow.

Thematically, Heck no.
Mechanically Elf with EWP Hornbow, Heck yes. Let me shoot greatswords at you.


Melkiador wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Proficiency does not affect the weapons in which one is proficient.
And neither do any of those other feats. Just like proficiency, they effect the user wielding the weapon, instead of the weapon itself. If Moreland had meant to say what you seem to have wanted him to say, he could have just said it.

They may not "effect" the weapon in question. But the effect does apply to shortbows and longbows in my particular example there. As you cannot use stabbing shot with a crossbow. Or a sword. The condition of the effect is you must be using a longbow or shortbow. Thus a hornbow can be substituted in.

As for what Moreland was saying. My read was this. If you are not using anything on your PC which effects the use of longbows and shortbows, ignore this piece of text.


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Mark Moreland wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
One can treat this as future proofing in order to be able to use "Longbows and Shortbows" as shorthand for "bows that are not crossbows". If they roll out a weapon enhancement only for bows- long, short, and horn they would not need to reference a non PFRPG book (in case this is an issue, hardcovers don't reference softcovers) or use an awkward construction like "Bows that are not crossbows.
This. If the text doesn't apply to anything you're using on your PC, then ignore it.

So, as I understand this.

Hornbow, Orc:
Price 130 gp; Type exotic

Larger even than a longbow, these bows are often made from the horns of great beasts. Though they have a shorter range than other bows, their greater destructive power is highly favored by orcs and their kin. All hornbows are composite bows and can be modified to benefit from high Strength scores in the same way as other composite bows. Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows.

This means that I can apply any effect that I require a Longbow or Shortbow to use, to the Hornbow. As an exotic big brother to the longbow.

For example Stabbing shot as mentioned earlier:

Benefit: When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you may choose to make a melee attack against that opponent with a drawn arrow rather than firing it.

Here the ability/effect specifies that it can be used with a longbow or a shortbow, and so applies to both of these.

Once again; Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows.

So my Elf ranger with EWP Hornbow Orc, gets to stab peeps in the eye with an arrow.