Ive already basically made this same thing 4-5 times on Facebook, so why not be a masochist and make it here too?
My greatest concern with the Pathfinder 2 playtest right now are the changes to magic, and the lack of support for Martial classes. Magic Classes have fewer spells per day overall, fewer spells per tier, Bonus Spells Per Day have been completely removed, individual spells have been changed to have fixed effects that down grow with Caster level. Oh and Spontaneous Casters now have to learn the same spell multiple times at different tiers while they have a limit on their maximum spells known.
Special abilities like Magic are really the crutch to keep me going through stories and taking all the game challengers.
So I looked at Martial classes to see if they got anything new and interesting.
So I really dont know what there really is to do in the games. I always just looked forward to gaining new powers, especially spells. Without those things...what is there?
I dont think Pathfinder 2 is aiming for people like me as a demographic. Who is it aiming for?
Heres a list of problems Ive written down. Not absolutely comprehensive.
#1 Spells per day are Reduced and Fixed. This is just a flat reduction in what players have access to. Not a benefit
#2 Removal of Bonus Spells Per day. Just a negative, not a benefit.
#3 Changed and now Fixed spell effects make many spells useless, even Jokes to have them remain on spell lists.
#4 Tier 10 spells and slot. Only unlocked through a Class Feat to just gain access to ONE Tier 10 slot, and the Tier 10 spells were previously tier 9s. Not beneficial.
#5 Concentration. A negative mechanic added to limit how much players can do. Not beneficial.
#6 Heightened spell effects vary in terms of effectiveness and I see many are so weak that it puts the important of the entire Heigtened mechanic into question.
#7 Spontaneous Casters have moved backwards in flexibility. A major boon in Pathfinder was the Racial Favored Class Bonus.
#8 Redundant Free Ability bonuses. There are additional Free Ability bonuses for each Background, Race, and Class.
#9 Starting VS Leveling ability scores. At the begining you have many Ability Scores boosts. As you level you gain more.
#10 Confusing Vague language. Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, and Legendary being used for each category required either memorization of terms or frequent checking.
#11 Ancestry "feats". Characters used to get all these when they made a character. Not a beneficial change.
#12 Reduction in number of General Feats available and number each character gains. Not beneficial.
#13 Class feats. Many of them were abilities that the classes recieved for free and could gain more. Youre getting more choices but less overall.
#14 Resonance. You have to keep track of a new resource and"pay" to use items now.
#15 Action system. Limited of three actions per turn, unless they are Free Actions. Some actions use up all actions, like spellcasting.
#16 Spell Focus. Spellcasting characters have to find ways to keep equipment from interacting poorly with limited number of actions, like taking off and putting a shield back on taking 2 actions
#16 Multiple Attack Penalty. Same -5 per additional attack in the same turn as old Full Round Attack Actions.
#17 Attacks of Opportunity are now Fighter Class only?
#18 Druids dont seem to be to cast spells while in Animal Form anymore.
Bards are now full tier 9/10 spellcasters, sweet.
Mentioned earlier is using Prestige points to gain a Wand of Cure Light Wounds at level 1, usually after 1 scenario play.
There are suggested lists in Pathfinder Society of skills and low equipment to handle all the possibilities. If you dont youre probably going to die fighting Incorporeal enemies and the like.
Points skill points into every trained skill.
Making a well-rounded character is a good idea but every encounter is still determinate on having the highest possible stats and boosts for whatever you are trying like basic combat or in skills having enough dice being rolled. Its weird when everyone has every knowledge skill just so you have 5-7 people all capable of rolling checks when necessary.
Out of combat? That is supposed to be where skillmonkeys beat martials. The thing is that there are casters that ARE skillmonkeys which overshadow the rest. Why be a regular rogue when an Eldritch scoundrel archetype has several invisibility, teleportation,and flight spells.
Martials often has passive abilities. Casters have to activate theirs. If you have both its gets hectic. In previous D&D editions there were spells that basically raised your BAB to maximum temporarily.
Its much difficult to plan with casters while its easy to start a martial class with strength, Constitution and overshadow any caster.
Thats a contradictory statement.
Personally I like well rounded characters like the Investigator or Magus so the disparity is based on the GM making challenges ONLY a specialist can succeed at.
Keeping retainers and non-combat animals safe is a metagaming problem. If youre bringing your pack mules into still hostile areas then you are not being cautious enough.
Dumping strength completely is not a good idea. You wont always have the alternatives and being encumbered by your armor or any random item you pick up is hilariously short sighted. Also having it too low means any Strength Score damage might make you a one-shot kill.
As for Combat Maneuver Defense, Dexterity also contributes to it. There are a ridiculous number of factors for Combat Maneuvers. You can have someone cast Grease on you for a nice time.
For added fun point out that your character is Greased up to the enemies. See if they dont flee a weird greased up guy eager to wrestle with them.
Dexterity is the better statistic for general use but more tricky to use for damage and hit chance. Ranged weapons dont convert Dexterity Bonuses to damage(aside from the Gunslinger).
If you look up any guides and many classes actually say "Use Dexterity, Weapon Finesse, a high Critical weapon(rapier), and enchant with Agile(if not a rapier)". Its easy to make a combat Magus, Bard, Investigator, and so on this way.
Hilariously 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons actually made it more of an exploit as by default ALL Finesse weapons can be used without Weapon Finesses(it doesnt exist there, so free) and all Finesses weapons are Agile for FREE. Basically all 5th edition classes should start with 14+ Dexterity, maybe more for even more Initiative, AC, Hit chance, damage, save rolls, and skills. A level 1 Rogue can outdamage a Barbarian.
Besides Fire Storm and Stormbolt I dont know of any decent Druid damage spells, and thet are way up at spell tier 8. Everything below that gains about +1 damage per Druid level, or like Call Lightning requires concentration over multiple turns to do light damage.
Theres nothing on the list comparable to Fireball, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Haste, etc.
Druid does not have the best spell list.
Im more interested in the motivation for or against using a decision rather than yes or no answers.
Kineticists are more like what people want, just a combat caster using pseudo-magic.
D&D on the other hand can allow some creative options through spells. Save or Die spells are infamous, but the ability to create and sell magic items would also be very useful or how about using Wish to create money or materials?
Im less familiar with the changes to those spells, but would you ban something like WIsh or creation feats?
Yep thats the drawback of being a traveling Murder Hobo in once a week games.
I hear alot about the class, so I made a character. I havent used it in a while as I didnt think of ways to get past the negatives.
1 Equipment is a big problem as Im in regular form the majority of the time. Best I can use is a Dragonhide Breastplate. Mithril would improvre that but it cant be used. Weapons, well Ive got a scimitar.
2 I dont know how in WIld Shape to have a High AC score as you lose your armor and you need Amulet of Mighty Fists to give your natural weapons the equivalent of weapon enhancements. AMmulet of natural Armor is very useful but you cant use multiple magic items in the same slot.
3 I cant find any buff spells comparable to Clerics' Divine Favor/Power or Wizards Heroism or Haste. I dont think there is anything close in offense spells to Fireball. Best I could think is to become a summoner specialist using up feats for it.
4 animal companions are very useful early on and get stronger at level 4/7. Long term they suffer as they dont have any class abilities, magic, ways to get extra attacks, low HP and so on.
I know of the spell Awaken but I dont know all the details. I think it makes your pet into a more complicated character that you can control somewhat with being able to take class levels being a major gain.
Right now I am underperforming as my Animal is doing alot more than my PC.
I like the idea of a higher level Inquisitor, compensating raw stats with multiple stacking buffing abilities to make itself better than a Fighter while still having utility with plenty of skills.
#1 Lack of weapon proficiencies is major problem. Heavy mace, Morningstar, or Longspear are limited. Martial proficiencies are highly desirable and Inquisitor doesnt have them. For martial classes Greatsword is basic power weapon with plenty of damage. Lucerne Hammer is very good Reach weapon with multiple damage types. Nodachi also has multiple damage types and high critical threat chance.
#2 Lack of feats for anything except a melee build. Archery build is iconic and offensively it works well in combination with all the buffs to make a Ranged DPS character. Actually getting all the ones required takes quite a long time and getting others like Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and others makes it quite feat starved.
#3 Choice of race. Inquisitor is an MAD class. Strength/Dex are important for offense, Wisdom necessary for spells. Charisma is the only dump stat though some suggest dumping Intelligence. Personally I favor a Half-orc for Darkvision, Sacred Tattoos(in combination with Fate's Favored trait), Human Favored Class Bonuses(usually the best) and of course the custom stat choice.
#4 Spells. Being a reduced tier 6 divine spell user results in many limited spells. There are plenty of useful buffing spells, but minimal offensive spells. Tier 1 spell slots seem reserved for Divine Favor.
#5 Alignment and Deities. Deity Alignment seems inverse to how effective the bonuses are. There are plenty of domain powers but most are negligible bonuses that dont stack and/or you cannot benefit from because of one-round durations.
Two core problems with the Fighter is that it starts out horribly specialized in fighting with no skills and low saves. It doesnt gain any special abiltities like Fly, touch attacks, or Magic, just passive upgrades.
Quite simply the Fighter is an uneducated human with basic equipment compared to superhuman and supernatural rivals and enemies.
Someone more knowledgeable could tell you better 3rd edition D&D gave out feats in an attempt to make the Fighter better but also skewed things.
To me the Fighter is that class everyone starts as before they gain powers in some way. Many games start out as a basic class with no special abilities but then changes into something like a Paladin or Wizard. Giving Fighters bonus feats confuses the issue. If those werent there then FIghters would upgrade into semi-prestige classes like the Ranger and Barbarian. In Older editions they were just that.
Well the Storm Druid Archetype is THE Druid Caster. You lose your animal companion. Thats a major loss for an Druid. Youre already stated you know youre gaining the ability to freely use domain spells at-will.
The problem is youre not getting a great deal from domains or from the archetype. Most of the domain spells a Druid can take are already Druid spells so youre not getting much.
I think you would get more use out of having an Animal Companion. You can still specialize is casting. Just think of your mountain lion or bear as a bodyguard.
Lightning bolt is a decent spell, but its worse than Fireball and its usefulness is limited. Druid isnt meant to be a blaster. You dont have a wide variety of attack spells like a Wizard would have. Instead its about the variety of having a 15bab melee, tier 9 spellcasting, wild shape, and an animal companion all together.
Oh, of course. I assume we're just discussing the best ways to hypothetically do so. It's not actually going to happen. I'd like it if we stopped attacking the assumed purpose of the thread and just have some fun.
I like to see discussions rather than one-sided arguments of "you cant". I dont think some classes can so well as self-sufficient because they are made to fill niches. If anything I would like to see a swiss-army-Fighter.
Making a One-person-party character is an ideal, but short of that being able to take care of different roles in a party is still a workable goal. Some classes have that a default with skills, spells, and/or combat ability like an Inquisitor. Id still like to see actual builds. Im seeing alot of posts that are just "summoner" when you can do much more.
As for "Chess Pwn", please stop following me. You are not obligated to participate and I would like you to stop being so negative. I told you to keep it in private messaging but you blocked me.
You missed the context. Healing inside combat and between combats.
There were a couple checklists earlier.
Healing, Status cure, crowd control, utilities like flight and teleportation as well as basics like ranged, single target and group attack damage.
A Solo character.
Just a note but instead of summarizing all the classes, can you focus on the ones relevent to the topic? The Idea behind soling is the versatility to deal with any problem and the power to defeat any enemy.
By their very nature non-spellcasters are limited as they have no ability to heal themselves without spending money to purchase items that may or may not be available within a setting.
If were going into it, the Monk has long been confusing through multiple decades. Its meant to be an alternative to the Fighter while lacking the Fighter's equipment options especially lacking in armor. It has utility powers that are not game-changers and often a Fighter with potions can do the same. Feather Fall anyone?
The Unchained Monk is far more combat oriented. With more Monk weapons, a better Flurry of Blows system, Ki Powers by default and special attacks(Flying Kick FTW). a basic Monk can make up to 7 attacks while the Unchained Monk can make 6 attacks at +5 Attack and etc.
Really the basic problem is that without equipment the Monk is heavily based on special attack abilities and the basic Monk lacks any. The Brawler is quite a bit better than the basic Monk. The Unchained Monk is much more competitive.
If they ever release a Zen Archer legal archetype for the Unchained Monk Ill be all over it.
I play in a Pathfinder Society campaign. Ive been getting into modules where Enemies seem wildly off many times.
You would expect with level 1 characters you fight Goblins or kobolds, right? I look them up and they arent even one challenge point, but a fraction. You fight them in groups to get close to challenge 1. Ive fought them about 3 different modules out of about a dozen.
What do I see us fighting? Ghouls with paralyzing touch, Devils and Demons with various damage reduction, immunities, and spell-like abiltites. I check those up and they are rated several times higher.
Bosses tend to be even higher at challenge 3-4. Several are clearly beyond our fighting power as they are basically level 5+ Cleric/Druid/Whatevers.
Am I misunderstanding the Challenge rating or are we just fighting in difficult modules? Please break it down for me.
"The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa."
In theory there shouldnt be a problem between role-playing and gaming. A problem is when you try to make something "interesting" but not actually good in terms of gameplay.
You could easily make an underwhelming character, and that should be reflected in your roleplaying. Maybe the other characters dont like the self-righteous Paladin/goofball.
If you want to play as a Doctor Who clone the the Investigator is closer.
Th Alchemist is an alternate magic user inspired by the likes of Jekyl and Hyde. The Investigator is based on Sherlock Holmes WITH ALCHEMY.
The Investigator doesnt have the bombs or mutagens(without special talents) as the the Alchemist, but is a "skillmonkey" class with high intelligence and skill points. Like the Doctor you can know different languages, enemy weaknesses, negotiation, traps, etc.
First, if you are using a a Monk weapon only get it as long as its damage is equal or better than your fists at present. No reason to have a d6 weapon when youre fists already do that. Many bonuses the weapons grant dont benefit from bonuses your fists will eventually get.
There is an interesting build of a Monk I know. Get Crane Style feat early and fight defensively. Aldori Caution is a trait that Gives another +1 AC while fighting defensively, so thats -2 hit +4 Ac. Thats a better gain than Combat Expertise by alot
Pick multiclass at level 2 in anything that can use Simple weapons at least and get the Sansetsukon. Its a Monk weapon with D10 damage and raises your AC when fighting defensively.
You get a d8+str damage with 2 attacks at level 1.
Investigator is pretty good to multiclass into as it gives the monk alot of options with skills, extracts, and trapfinding.
the Unchained Monk just starts level 1 with ALL Monk weapons proficient, higher BAB, and a Bonus Feat(Crane Style level 1 easy). so you could easily outperform a Fighter at that point with high AC, multiple attacks, and/or more damage per attack .
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Bard to dragon disciple? I didnt think You could do that do that. Technically you can do the same with the magus. The draconic bloodline isnt a requirement UNLESS you have a Sorceror. Even more technical, you dont even need to be Draconic Bloodrager.
But really, Dragon Disciple powers are meant to synergize with the Draconic Bloodline.
One core problem I think Prestige classes have is #1 you cant start at them, #2 you can only take up to 10 levels, and #3 you dont grow in most class features. Most classes are heavily dependent on their class features so youre splitting up abiltities and getting a weaker resulting fusion.
Personally I love the concept of the Mystic Theurge as a White/Black Mage with 2 schools to cast high(but not top) tier magic, but it fails as you can only get 10 levels as a prestige class, meaning you have something like tier 8 Wizard spells and tier 6 Cleric spells without armor and no strength for melee.
Dragon Disciple is still good, oddly enough more because of the Bloodrager than the Sorceror. Its because that prestige classes gives powerful PHYSICAL bonuses. a Sorcerer becomes a middling warrior/mage, but the Bloodrager gets huge bonuses. You would have to clear it with your DM to actually use.