Caspian Barefoot's page

I keep seeing threads that trying to assert some normality to behavior(s) of predominantly males towards females.

The idea being that it is everyone's responsibility to do something about the issue.

The fact is the things discussed are not "normal" behaviors based on cultural or gender identity or privilege if you will, these behaviors are not socially acceptable, show a mental health need, and have nothing to do with healthy well adjusted males.

The threads attempting to links psychiatric behaviors to persons in a group based solely on gender are at the least misguided. Suggestions such as increased awareness, identification of perpetrators, insisting on treatment, harsher penalties are more responsible than vilifying an entire gender of gamers.

the following has been deleted as "off-topic" (in two different threads), though entirely factual information
this one
and this one

The problem is an identified and recognized psychiatric problem...

Frotteurism wiki page

Frorreurists rely on crowds such as on trains to touch as many people as possible, without consent and to escape being identified.

A single perpetrator can have multiple victims.

Much more likely for one person to grope hundreds, than to assume 100 gropers who (controlled their impulses enough to) only grope one person each.

This is a real issue that faces females everywhere, our female gamers as well. If you are a guy with a problem or know someone who has this, seek help!

Recently the four nation tribes had come into contact with a troop of heroes chartered to explore the Stolen Lands, who brought with them a promise of peace with the big folk.

A gathering of the chiefs had cemented an alliance. Chief Oleg the human representative, Chief Sootscale the kobold representative, Chief Grabbles - mite representative, Chief Gutwad the goblin representative, Chief Splinter of the ratfolk. The chief's have each elected "leftenants" individuals from the tribes who will travel the area and help keep the peace. You are the leftenants, your first trip out into the Stolen lands...

It is twighlight and you are in the hex of plains with a woods nearby, helping your new friends in exploring the area.....they fail to met up with you at the appointed place at the end of the day...there is no sign of Amiri, Lini, Harsk, or Sajan. In fact you look all around and see no sign.

Does anyone have any ideas for this????

I was thinking about it. I got nothing!!!

Interest check in locating persons interested in a savage version of Kingmaker. The format will be play by post.

I am looking for 4-5 players who are one each of the following or similar races, all of whom are interested in becoming chief of their respective tribes.

I am interested in the following races for certain kobold, mite, and goblin. The fourth race needs to be similar to the other three...ratfolk for example...
Kingmaker covers the kobold and mite tribes.
We be goblins covers a goblin tribe (other than location)
The fourth race will also need to detail a tribe.
The four tribes are in adjacent and centrally located hexes!

The game starts at level 2 and has the following assumptions:
1. The diverse tribes (of the PCs races only) are at peace with one another and
2. have a treaty with the NPC heroes chartered to explore the greebelt. The treaties are such that the authority of the charter passes into the (tiny and grubby little) hands of the PCs....
3. I am assuming that some small portion of the greebelt has been explored.
4. That the original charter holders died attempting to take the Staglords fort.
5. The new PCs are taking the fallen heroes bodies to Olegs or to the temple for proper burial.

I am looking for persons interested in playing their respective race and working cooperativly towards goals. You can be evil if you so choose.

I am also expecting players to help in resolving stuck points and/or assisting the DM in the challenge of moving monsterous races through an AP.

Since this is an interest check only please just tell me the following information.

1. Race
2. Classes
3. Concept...ie what makes this character "work" in an AP
4. What you can do to help make the game successful
5. Role you eventually see this PC filling in the kingdom
6. Why you liked the humans who originally held the charter.
7. I may entertain the notion of a Halfling or Gnomish survivor coming from the original charter holders...

Preference for inclusion will be given to individuals I have play-by-posted with currently or before, and those who DM games on the paizoboards.

Which means that it is possible that no recruitment thread will ever be posted.

Update 1. The goblin slot has been taken by a rogue.
Update 2. The kobold slot has been taken evoker or witch.
Still needed are a mite and an other tbd (ratfolk?)..

I am asking if this description/role of the Inquisitor

Grim and determined, the inquisitor roots out enemies of the faith, using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough. Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules and conventions of the church. They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone, and are willing to take extreme measures to meet their goals.

Role: Inquisitors tend to move from place to place, chasing down enemies and researching emerging threats. As a result, they often travel with others, if for no other reason than to mask their presence. Inquisitors work with members of their faith whenever possible, but even such allies are not above suspicion.

Specifically this part
using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough

Is there any reason to believe that an inquisitor has to ever resort to trickery and guile?

Is it an imperative?

I am asking this because I saw an argument made that paladin / inquisitor is not possible due to the two classes having conflicting codes and agendas.

Please dot here to keep the game active.

This is the discussion thread, if each character could please check in.

Also you can post and then delete your post from the game thread, then we will move over there in an orderly fashion.

Roll call!

I am taking over for a previous GM. This thread is needed for the new threads to go into place.

Very often games are based upon the limitations of “official content” only, other games are Pathfinder Society that have similar restrictions. Is anyone at Paizo at liberty to make something posted here “official” by simply stating it in a thread?

Same goes for things that show up in Wayfinder. I would love to see someone at Paizo stamp some content official or approved for play or something.

I was looking for someone who had put some work into this idea, and the last time it was discussed was a long time ago.

I am posting my assistance for anyone who thought at least two of the nobels might be actively trying to become Lord Mayor.

So my idea was to "borrow" heavily from a couple of famous short speeches and use those as various nobles hoping to become the Lord Mayor of Cauldron. Yes I know Richard the III.

The speeches were:

Winston Churchill, Blood Toil Tears and Sweat

Otto Von Bismarck Speech - Blood and Iron

The speech delivered by Lord Ankhin Taskerhill

On Friday evening last I received word from Jenya High Preistess wherein the clear mission to form a new administration. It was the evident will of the people and the nation that this should be conceived on the broadest possible basis and that it should include all parties.
I have already completed the most important part of this task.
A defense cabinet has been formed of five members, representing, with the Merchants, Populance, and Nobles, the unity of Cauldron. It was necessary that this should be done in one single day on account of the extreme urgency and rigor of recent events. I hope once this council makes me Lord Mayor fully invested to complete the appointment of principal ministers as soon as tomorrow.
I now invite this body by a resolution on record its approval of my nomination as Lord Mayor and publicly declare its confidence in the new government.

I say to this assembly as I said to ministers who have joined us, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many months of struggle and suffering.
You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs - Victory in spite of all terrors - Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.
Let that be realized. No survival for Cauldron, no survival for all that the human Empires have stood for, no survival for the urge, the impulse of the ages, that mankind shall move forward toward his goal.
I take up my task in buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. I feel entitled at this juncture, at this time, to claim the aid of all and to say, "Come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."

********************

The speech given by Lord Zachary Aslaxin I

The Conflict of Cauldron is viewed too tragically, and presented too tragically; the regime does not seek defense. The other Lord seeks personal power and gain. If the crisis can be ended with honor, I will gladly do so. The great independence of the individual makes it difficult in Cauldron to rule under a single authority. In Sasserine it is otherwise; there, individual independence is lacking. This lack and our crisis, however, is no shame, but rather an honor. We are perhaps too educated to have learned endurance and resolve - we are too critical.
The purpose of the Lord Mayor is steady resolve and endurance, with the task of standing over public sentiment, and of shepherding it. Our blood is too hot, we prefer armor too great for our small body to carry, but we should put it to service.
Cauldron must collect its forces for the favorable occasion, which has several times been neglected; Cauldron's borders are not favorable to a healthy national life. Not by speeches and decisions of majorities will the greatest problems of the time be decided by endurance and toil - by iron and blood.

Any edits / glaring errors/ further suggestions would be appreciated.

Like I said I am going to post some things on a trial basis and delete them after looking for coding errors.

This thread is just for me. Unless you DM play-by-posts and want to check your coding, then by all means! (just shoot me a private message first)....

Nothing is more embarassing for a DM than posting an error filled post in an ongoing game thread, and not being able to edit it.

You are goblins of the Licktoad tribe, who live deep in Brinestump
Marsh, south of the hated man-town called Sandpoint. Once,
other goblins tried to burn Sandpoint down, and they would
have been legends if they had succeeded. But they didn’t bring
enough fire, and got themselves killed as a result.

The rain has started and this begins the favorite activity of the licktoads the annual frog-catching and bug hunting contest.

The goblin camp is on a small hill, the huts are dirt floored, and the goblin babies are crawling around in a pen in the middle of the village, a female wet-nurses those that crawl near the fence.

Bug hunting begins now!

I am opening the discussion thread today.

And putting in all the campaign info, under the campaign info tab.

Feel free to post Goblins only here.

I have been running several play-by posts and know several other DM's are doing the same as well.

And using strong google-fu I have found many helpful things for the kingmaker campaign.

I loved the hex exploration description!
And Papa DM's rendition of Oleg's.

It would be nice to have a single document and repository of information.

For example I am writing a block of intel on the staglord's fort (in my game it is from Kressel), but any captured bandit will do.

This is what I have:

Deep in the stolen lands on the bank of the Tuskwater lake framed by two rivers on each side sits the Staglord’s fortress. The fortress sits upon a small hillock, a narrow path of hard-packed earth winds up the hillside approaching the fort, the path is 30 feet wide, 300 feet long, and provides no cover. The remaining hillside surrounding the fort is a swath of hill devoid of shrubbery, save for isolated thorny vines, but some large boulders break up the smooth landscape. The hillside is haunted according to the bandits chatter over the evening fires, but I have no way of knowing what haunt is or is not there.
I recommend you see the fort first hand and learn what you need before planning any coup.

The Staglord himself is a monsterously large man who wears a helm made from the head of a stag and the jaws of a bear. He uses a mighty bow that I have seen put an arrow through one man and into another. He is given to drink frequently and is no longer in his prime.

Where was I, oh yes the fortress is surrounded, and protected by a circular log fence enclosing and area of roughly 100 X 100. The fortress has guards set upon platforms overlooking all approach from outside, the fort has a ground and upper floor as well as a basement and stable for horses. An inner yard separates the wall from the structures within.

The men, one very large and very strong lummox named Auchs is not very sharp and is easy to convince or fool into nearly anything. A lanky and dark man who names hisself Dovan from Nisroch, carries a rapier and wears studded leather armor, he is sharp and aware and possibly dangerous. A third was once a knight of some sort Akiros Ismort, gave up being a knight and now rages into battle disregarding all to destroy his foes. Run of the mill bandits usually number about 4 or 5, it is also said the Staglord’s father lives in the basement, but like the haunted hillside I am not certain of this information.

Like the title says anyone interested in running through both we be goblins modules via play by post....

Openings for other small races welcome, kobolds and grippli come to mind.

The official game thread.

Opening a discussion thread for once players are selected.

I am recruiting once again!

Samples of games I DM:
PF Shackled City SCAP, 3,900+ posts, started Sept 2010
Ashardaldon Series - Unoptimized KK, 2,500+posts, started June 2011

For whatever reason I have decided that I need to try Kingmaker through play-by-post.

I have book 1 and 2; Stolen Land and Rivers Run Red. I have the other pdfs listed in my wishlist. I am not promising to run the AP beyond the pdfs I have.

I have a lot of information listed in my profile, including DM style and other relevant information. I strongly suggest you give it a read through before applying.

Let’s say 20 point buy, two traits, one must be a campaign trait. (no rich parents trait).

Max gold to start.

I tend to like core classes and races, But remember I will not be voting ; )

I am not going to determine who will be included in this game, the applicants will each vote on who they want to game with. The voting will be via private message to me.
There are 5 slots, each applicant to the recruitment thread gets 2 votes. Please try to refrain from voting for yourself! Also try to just offer up your single best character/concept.

A concept is sufficient to apply, though if accepted your full character must be ready by the game kick-off. I will list a couple of alternates in the post that shows who came close to getting the votes.

This thread will be open until Friday. Voting will occur when this thread closes. If you vote prior to all the submissions I will delete your Private message, without counting your votes.

Game kick off should be the following Monday.
Any questions?

I am not writting such a guide, but I have recently been wanting to optimize the fun that my player have participating in the process.

This leads me to making some "standardized" suggestions.

Formating, dice rolling, and ooc are all good for people to know.

I have a list of pbp "rules" listed under my name
click it I dare you.

But my thoughts were on optimizing the encounters,

Here is an example of a post I am making for an up-coming play by post:
I was looking for feedback to optimize the encounter.

---------------------Example------------

As the celebration ends you step out of the Stony Gaze Tavern and into the chilly night air.

A clear, loud low voice calls from an alley off the main road, ”Hey Heroes!”

Standing 15 feet away and across the road at the corner of the building is female Ogre, 10 feet tall, with emerald green skin, deep blue hair, and small ivory horns.
mugshot

You are blasted with a cone of cold, as the creature turns and flees rapidly rounding the corner out of sight.

DC 18 reflex save for half of the cold damage 8d6 ⇒ (6, 2, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5) = 38

Map

She is the red figure on the map and you are represented by the three pathfinder iconics

I need reflex saves, initiative rolls, perception checks and first round actions!

Here it is.

Uncertain AP......

This is the discussion thread.

Everyone not selected in that other game is gathering here.....

Ok....
but not really, I spend alot of time on play-by-post and as the DM I have alot of pictures that I add into the encounters, dice roll coding, in addition to what is block text from adventures, speeches or things the NPCs might say etc.

I "try" to save myself some time by making these into word documents that allow me to cut past into the PBP from the word document.

I find just the right picture for an adventure....
such as

scarecrow

witches hut

Fey turned to wood

These are in addition to what comes standard within the AP......

I would like to work on sections of these files with another person through e-mail, finding the right pictures, modifying things, etc.

So can I buy a guard dog (already trained) and then later make it my animal companion?

Seems like it would gain a new trick but would already be combat trained or am I missing something important?

Assumed knowledge

The function of holy water as described in the srd.

Knowledge skill use

This becomes instead a standard operating procedure (SOP) situation

Someone screams "undead" (ie rolls high enough to id the threat)
someone else says "hose it" (even if no one rolled high enough)

The disagreement comes when the DM looks at the "knowledge checks" and realizes you identified undead (or outsider) but not high enough to "know" (a weakness) to use holy water.

So basic question does everyone know undead are hurt by holy water?
If not what other basic equipment is not assumed PC knowledge?

Here is the official thread

So this is the OOC thread.

Anyone interested in a "hunger games" type pathfinder play-by-post where all the characters kill each other within a large arena?

1 bag of caltrops covers a 5 foot square and makes an attack roll 1d20+0

Does the number of attack rolls increase based on the distance traveled?

for example a 20 foot hallway covered in caltrops results in four attack rolls for a person covering the entire distance.....

Each time a creature moves into an area covered by caltrops (or spends a round fighting while standing in such an area), it runs the risk of stepping on one. Make an attack roll for the caltrops (base attack bonus +0) against the creature.

So is it each 5 foot area?

Introduction:

The ramshackle town of Falcon’s Hollow rests perilously close to the infamous Darkmoon Vale. The jagged shadow of nearby mountains casts a shroud of gloom on the desperate souls who call this place home. Many are drawn here to make their fortune cutting a swath of darkwood lumber through the lush forests of the vale. Others journey to these remote fringes to start over, piecing together their shattered lives on the edge of an untouched wilderness far from the things of man.

Persecuted zealots and outcasts flock to Falcon’s Hollow. Here, these fanatics practice their strange and often deviant rites unfettered by the mores of civilization. Still others are lured to Falcon’s Hollow by the promise of great adventure. Peril and splendor await within the accursed halls of dwarven kings of old, whose glorious civilization long ago shattered and crumbled to dust.

“Only the desperate and the brave” is the proud motto of Falcon’s Hollow. Few choose a life on the outskirts of Darkmoon, whose dim, mist-laden forests are prowled by feral beasts, reeking trolls, and the restless souls of the dead. Fewer still possess the steely will to venture into the haunted ruins of the once-great dwarven kingdom. For those brave enough to claim them, treasures surpassing the dreams of princes and poets rest beneath the rocky slopes of Droskar’s Crag, but so too does an ancient evil. Sibilant whispers ride the vale winds after nightfall, jumbled promises of doom, blasphemy, and rot hissed from the darkness beneath the mountain. From deep below the earth come soul-shredding abominations,and as these unspeakable horrors rise, the lesser denizens of these dwarven ruins are forced to the surface.

Perched at the edge of civilized lands, the small town of Falcon’s Hollow has always had to rely on itself to solve its problems. Meanwhile, the uncaring lumber barons squeeze the common folk for every last copper, deaf to their pleas. Now the hacking coughs of the sick are heard throughout town. The plague has come to Falcon’s Hollow and the town’s leaders can’t be bothered to stop it.

Falcon’s Hollow

Falcon’s Hollow Environs

Welcome the new comers to Falcon's Hollow!
Newcomers welcome each other.

Here is the location for all completed characters

Each full character will post once, the character name and avatar being correct and stating your role in the party.

After all the potential PC’s are in the “line-up” you can then cast your votes for whom you want in the party…..(one post listing your picks for the four PCs to be in the game)

Hollow’s Last Hope

Will be right here on Paizo,

Recruitment :

Wanted an old fashioned team of four PC’s to take on the “short term” PBP module Hollow’s Last Hope!

I am looking for a “traditional team”* in the sense of roles, though APG and UM are both fine.
*tank, healer, skill monkey, arcanist

22 point buy, no score under 10!

2 traits, no rich parents!

Each person submitting a full character will vote for the composition of the party….

So each submission is looked over by every applicant and then at the end of the week…..

Everyone who submits a full character can vote for not only themselves, but also is required to vote for the rest of the party.

Recruitment will last from today and run a full week. At the end of recruitment, everyone will move over to the OOC thread.

Each full character will post once, the character name and avatar being correct and stating your role in the party.

After all the potential PC’s are in the “line-up” you can then cast your votes for whom you want in the party…..(one post listing your picks for the four PCs to be in the game)

I will of course veto things as they appear in the recruitment thread!

When you post here please tell what role you really want!

Any takers?

Any questions?

The long and short of it is, the towns heroes have gone missing investigating the sunless citadel and other things around town...
The missing heroes are a fighter (Talgen), a wizard (Sharwyn), a paladin (Sir Bradford), and a Ranger (Karakas)....

The paladin was not a local and is said to have had a magical sword named shatterspike.

Once the town became devoid of heroes, the local mayor (Vurnor Leng) found a rag-tag band of drifters, drunks, vagrants, misfits, and just plain disturbing individuals he could find/release from the stockade/etc That would be you guys and hopes you can rescue the heroes, solve the towns problems and collect a reward!

The long and short of it is, the towns heroes have gone missing investigating the sunless citadel and other things around town...

The missing heroes are a fighter (Talgen), a wizard (Sharwyn), a paladin (Sir Bradford), and a Ranger (Karakas)....

The paladin was not a local and is said to have had a magical sword named shatterspike.

Once the town became devoid of heroes, the local mayor (Vurnor Leng) found a rag-tag band of drifters, drunks, vagrants, misfits, and just plain disturbing individuals he could find/release from the stockade/etc That would be you guys and hopes you can rescue the heroes, solve the towns problems and collect a reward!

Based in the town of
oakhurst

You are also familiar with the
Surrounding area

Mayor Vurnor Leng’s speech!
As everyone gathers around the well in the center of town the word has been spread the mayor is to make a speech on the state of the town.

”Ladies and gentle folk, lend me your ears and hear that since our local heroes have gone missing, you know them well locals one and all except Sir Bradford, but he is a paladin and a welcome neighbor to anyone. We are left with only our two town guards, and you requested nay demanded that I take action and protect you the citizenry. Though it has been only scant days, you are indeed protected, and hopefully these new heroes can return the others and end any threats to Oakhurst.”

Lots of applause as the crowd stares at you!

”I give you the ………Motley Crew.”
Please come up with a name for yourselves.

Sense Motive DC 20

”They leave at first light to the sunless citadel!”
More applause, clapping and stomping of feet!

The mayor nudges you and gives you a wink.
(aside)
"Any of you want to say anything?"

This is the ooc thread as promised!

These characters are in!
Individual Concept Character
TarkXT: broodmaster summoner Berry Peelyblossom
Mark Sweetman: Halfling monk: Thedrin the Lotus
Roidrage : fallen Paladin/rogue: Sir Respin Bayleaf
Tangible Delusions: Oracle/sorcerer: Gurukk Pyreborn
Susan Richardson: antipaladin/possessed oracle: Triesta
Sunset: fighter: Xane

Roll call! Go ahead and post in this thread with your character!

Adventuring for the sake of simple adventuring, nothing complex!

Based in the town of oakhurst

You are also familiar with the Surrounding area

Hello potential play-by-post gamers.

I am looking for odd PF characters.

I am thinking 25 point buy.Sounds good, right?

Is there a character you have wanted to try that everyone else says bad things about and tells you it is a bad idea?

Then you are in luck I want to see your unoptimized PC and idea for the development of the unoptimized PC.

Core and APG should work out fine!

Just concepts for now (please do not spend too much time un-optimizing your character!)

Any Questions?

Ok here is my thought process....

Chapter 3 flood season the BBEGs steal the wands of control water to force cauldron to pay a ransom, why would they not also steal/uncork Oraks decanter of endless water or have agents adding to the problem.....such as through the orison create water....

forcing everything to go faster rather than just waiting for rain that may or may not be that heavy this year....

I wanted some input for my level 1 summoner build....

I feel like he is incomplete and wanted some ideas.

I like that he is a half-orc with a small Eidolon.....

Click on him for full details!

This page is looking for our wayward pbp character who may have lost his dot in our pbp game.

Please any help with this build would be appreciated...

Click on the name for details!

Has anyone really done this?

I searched this site and it seemed a few people tried but then the posts just end.....(not getting very far).

If you have I would like to see it, or see text files that you use...

Yes I know about RPGenius but those textblocks are far from complete of what you need to run through PBP....

Ok has anyone applied pathfinder rules to the NPC's in Shackled City....

I rebuilt the thugs in chapter 1 event 1
using the GMG, "street thug" from the NPC gallery
Used 2 rather than 3 since they are a little tougher.....

Has anyone pathfinder built Jil the assassin?
or want to suggest her build rogue 5/ assasin 1?

Any others?

I am seeing this as building the following way....

Witch 5 / magus 1/ Eldritch Knight....adding caster levels to the witch of course and using magus for slightly more low level spells.........

The question is am I missing the boat?

Established group of characters seeks replacement for our "skill monkey".

20 point buy

no traits

2nd level (only one has to be skill based)

APG open

Shackled City AP

400 starting gold

Discussion thread

Game Thread

As the new group of adventurers regroup at the Feral Dog there seems to be little going on and few places to explore since the citadel by the sea unceremonieously fell into the sea.

One of the locals is saying that further inland he had been by the Lucky Monkey on his way into Cauldron and had heard several rumors and great commotions going on in the city proper.......

Ok here is the promised discussion thread....

I will post a link in the original game thread and in the original OCC thread....

The Shackled City

I was wondering if anyone has put together anything similar to the various guides for the APG classes?

I made a witch PC and sitting in the bar waiting for other PC's to arrive I have been swapping healing for drinks...

Any reason to not use this to make money during downtime....

I am thinking that it should be similar to profession healer, rather than costs NPC's would pay for a spellcaster to cast healing....

One seems very low and the other seems relatively high.

Any suggestions?

I love the trait system and have had fun reading and selecting traits for PCs and NPCs alike.

Some traits I have heard about and have had trouble locating for example the SRD here I could not find the traits listed.

d20pfsrd seems to have many traits but not all of them.

I keep hearing of the singular or plural pioneer trait(s) and really wanted to see that trait and know where all the traits can be found!

Is a running character sneak attackable by a ranged attack?

this is actually 2 parts
1. is the runner flat-footed or lose dex bonus to AC?

2. Is there a penalty to hit a moving target?

Anyone who can clarify RAW would help me out alot....

What has gone before….

A group of adventurers each chartered by the Swordlords of Restov to boldly go where no man has gone before into the greenbelt an area of dangers unknown…

That group during its last trip into the area having neither ranger nor druid and being plagued by small magical beasts that ate all rations, dense fog that stole their sight, and magical pranks of dancing lights, silences, and images/sounds that were not there the group became separated and each person alone braved the wilds.

Those few members of the group made it back to Oleg’s Trading post.

At this time not a one of them knows if any of the others survived.

As the first arrives from the old group and wonders if any of the others have returned before them or will return soon.

Each time a traveler comes to Oleg’s, the survivor(s) look to the door hoping to have back another individual return to them from a green grave.